How the principles of unschooling can end up secondarily improving a marriage or partner relationship.
Sandra Dodd: Hello!
Sandra Dodd: Marriages and that.
Sandra Dodd: Principles of unschooling, and successful unschooling, helping with better relationships.
Marta Pires: Great topic, Sandra.
Sandra Dodd: The format for my article is going to be photos of three happy European families, an intro, and a list of things a person can do to make a relationship better—things that will work for children and adults both, I think.
Sandra Dodd: That's the plan, anyway.
Sandra Dodd: So Serah, if you have favorite unschooling-helped-marriage tips, please share before you leave.
Serah: Sounds good, pictures really help to make the concepts real. Just looking at happy families sends a nice message.
Sandra Dodd: I was just thinking that looking at baby photos helps me love my older kids sometimes.
Maybe looking at wedding photos, or young romance days, can help with spouses.Robin B.: Serah, how far are you into Ramadan?
Serah: For me, unschooling has really helped me by always trying to put kindness first. Doing kind things for others, being sweet to them and to myself has really helped my relationships with my kids and husband.
Marta Pires: I love looking at my wedding and my honeymoon photos!
AlexPolikowsky1: I agree Sandra. I look at pictures or think about the good times and moments and all the good in that person.
Robin B.: I love looking at other people's photos of happy times on FB. I can kind of get lost in them.
Serah: Today is the 22nd day, Robin, 8 more to go
AlexPolikowsky1: Great point Serah. Kindness and giving ( time, attention, service) as a gift.
Robin B.: W00t, Serah!
Colleen (NH): I took a photo of my husband at the shore last night, and looking at it makes my heart happy even though it was only from yesterday. There's something magical about pictures, I think.
AlexPolikowsky1: Really being a partner. Many partners are not really being good partners. I only became a better partner when I decided to be one just like I wanted to be with my children in relation to my husband
Celeste (FL): Empathy has been key for me.
Robin B.: We have many of our Hawai'i trips on Ross's computer, which we link up to the TV through Apple TV. It's a slideshow of happy times and beautiful scenery and how Senna has gotten older.
Robin B.: He plays soothing music at the same time and sometimes we both stop and just sigh with pleasure.
Marta Pires: Sweet, Robin.
AlexPolikowsky1: Celest for me too.
AlexPolikowsky1: <3 Robin
Serah: Knowing myself better. When I'm edgy or irritated, and what I can do for myself to help that feeling go away. Makes me a nicer person to be around.
Marta Pires: Yes Serah, same here.
Robin B.: Awareness is good!
trista: Being honest.
Colleen (NH): For me, I think the biggest applications of unschooling in terms of my marriage are the ideas of embracing (and supporting) other people's passions and interests - not just my child's, but my husband's too. And accepting people for who they are, not trying or wanting to change them or "fix" them. Valuing everyone in our family for who they are, working together to meet everyone's needs... Yep unschooling is good for marriages
AlexPolikowsky1: Keeping my mouth shut and not nagging my kids and my husband. Not talking when I am aggravated or crabby. Helps a lot.
trista: He'd ask "Are you okay?" And I'd grumpily say, "I'm fine."
JennyC: I learned how to not be reactionary to my kids a long time ago. I learned how to apply that to my marriage! It's harder, but gosh it works!
AlexPolikowsky1: I have screwed up that, recently even.
AlexPolikowsky1: Yes Jenny that!
TeresaHY: Jumping in a bit late. A phrase that started to come to my mind often as I began to start unschooling that I later applied to my marriage was, "It doesn't have to be like this." I say that to myself in tough moments, when I catch myself getting hard and tense. It gets to choices, I think.
Celeste (FL): @AlexPolikowsky1 exactly!
trista: Instead of asking for help or letting that little thing get under my skin.
Robin B.: ~ I only became a better partner when I decided to be one ~ This is great, Alex. Too many people are waiting for their partner or situation to change and feel victimized somehow.
TeresaHY: JennyC, that seems to be it for me, too. Responsive rather than reactionary. Thoughtful in my reactions, even if that thought is no more sophisticated than "Stop making this worse and make a different choice."
Robin B.: Choices, yes, Teresa.
Marta Pires: Another thing that has helped me with my relationship with my husband was the idea that, when things are happening, I can choose what will lead me to a more peaceful moment or what will lead me away from it (and that the more peaceful I can be, the sweeter our relationship will be). I have that internal dialogue now, and even if I don't pay attention to myself at times, I've been able to choose the more peaceful route more and more.
Robin B.: It even becomes a subconscious thing, Marta, right? In addition to a conscious choice?
Colleen (NH): To an extent, I think punishment comes into play too - a lot of spouses "punish" each other when they're mad - with the silent treatment, or by being unpleasant or passive-aggressive. Because punishment isn't something we want in our home, I find that even when we're upset with each other, we get over it very quickly and positively, because we're not holding onto resentment and plotting how to get back at each other. If that makes sense.
AlexPolikowsky1: My husband was wonderful today with our son. Daniel was going to cash his Patriot Bonds and Brian said he would give him the money ( and we now have $50 in the bank until next week when he sells a cow) so my son could complete his new computer order because there were a lot of promotions expiring today. Super Sweet;
Marta Pires: Totally, Robin!
AlexPolikowsky1: Yes Marta!
Marta Pires: It's been gradual, but it's certainly happening.
Robin B.: That's a good point, Colleen, how spouses punish each other! I never thought about it like that.
Serah: I do have a hard time being quiet when my husband is being unthinkingly mean to the boys. Sometimes he becomes reactionary and I am standing by watching wanting to jump in.
Robin B.: Aww. Brian *is* sweet, Alex.
Robin B.: Any suggestions for Serah on how to handle that?
AlexPolikowsky1: He is awesome! But I used to be mean and nag him a *lot*! If it was not unschooling it would not have been this sweet and happy I am sure of it.
Celeste (FL): Serah, I feel the same. I don't want to nag him but at the same time I'm wanting to help him find a happier place
Colleen (NH): It occurred to me last week Robin, when I was peeved over something silly - and I suddenly looked over at my husband and said "you know it doesn't matter if I'm upset about this or not, because in a minute, you'll make a joke and I'll laugh and we'll be over it anyway." He said yep and we both cracked up - no reason to hold onto resentment and to try to Teach each other a lesson.
JennyC: Right, Robin, it's easy to recognize it when it's done to kids, but adult to adult, it looks and feels very different, but it has the same end result of turning relationships sour
Robin B.: Sometimes mom can shift the energy with a joke or something nicer to focus on.
JennyC: Oooh oooh me me!
Robin B.: Yes, Jenny.
JennyC: I know.
Robin B.: On both posts!
Celeste (FL): Acceptance of his ability to manage himself is the only thing I've come up with. I just have to trust that he loves us and he's doing his personal best.
AlexPolikowsky1: Can you give an example? Sometimes moms will side with kids and not take their husband's feelings and needs in consideration. It becomes us versus dad. It is better to be a team and not have sides.
Robin B.: Colleen, that's pretty smart of you guys.
AlexPolikowsky1: Colleen jokes help me and Brian a lot.
Sandra Dodd: Things don't get great all at once. It's two steps forward and one step back, at first, I think, with dads and younger children.
JennyC: It's so hard to separate that "feeling" from the actions. You can see your husband being mean and you feel it and it hurts and you want to say or do something to make it stop. In that moment, it's not about you, it's about him and what he's feeling and reacting to. Being very kind to him will only serve to help him stop.
Sandra Dodd: I would like to say that with our kids grown and me having been with Keith for over 30 years that we're always sweet, but I'll tell you about YESTERDAY.
Robin B.: Some things our partners do bring up old feelings and experiences that have nothing to do with them. That stuff gets worn into a pattern. Awareness, again, is helpful to shift *yourself*. But I'm not always good at it.
Colleen (NH): it helps that I'm married to one of the world's most mellow, easy-going men - it's hard to stay upset with someone who rarely gets upset himself
Sandra Dodd: I woke up thinking about the article I'm working on, and my main point was going to be making choices, and not acting without thinking.
TeresaHY: Serah, that's been hard for me, too. Sometimes it helps to take my boys in the other room to do something completely different. I can tell you from lots of experience what DOESN'T work, and that's glaring, accusing, suggesting (angrily) that he go out for while. I do fall into the us vs. dad set-up. Being really, truly calm--not faking it!--and sincere in my attempt to de-escalate rather than rescue the situation is good.
AlexPolikowsky1: OH NO what happened yesterday Sandra ?
Sandra Dodd: I feed birds every morning. I've been gone two months.
Sandra Dodd: The bird seed is stored in a 5-gallon plastic bucket (the commercial kind) with a round basket (once a laundry hamper, maybe) upside down on it to cover it up.
Sandra Dodd: The lid of the plastic bucket is wedged up in the basket.
HallieK: Hi, jumping in, here.
I'm working hard on allowing Mitch (dh) to have his own relationship with Connor (ds), not trying to jump in and shape it to make it look more like the one I want for myself and Connor.Sandra Dodd: So it looks like a basket, in the yard, instead of a white plastic bucket—that's all.
Sandra Dodd: But there had been 2" of moldy birdseed in the bottom Sunday, so I took the bucket to the back yard to rinse it and let it dry. Monday, it was wet from rain, and I got the plastic back of birdseed, and fed the birds, and stuck the plastic bag under the basket where birdseed goes.
Serah: Lately with it being Ramadan, the last 10 nights are considered very holy and are meant to be spent in spiritual contemplation and reflections. My husband wants to spend that time doing such. The boys after voluntarily fasting the whole day want to watch movies and play xbox. He feels this is a waste of time during these nights. And sometimes says it meanly to them.
Sandra Dodd: Keith came home and saw that and said it wasn't a good place for it. I said I know. The bucket is in the back yard, on the compost pile. I thought Keith would either get the bucket and make it all right, or leave it alone.
Sandra Dodd: Tuesday morning, thinking about this article, I got up and went to fill the birdfeeders and there was nothing under the basket.
Sandra Dodd: I had lots of options.
Sandra Dodd: I "know" what not to do.
Sandra Dodd: With half of me reciting the good advice I'm going to write down for the German magazine, the other half of me whipped out the cellphone and called Keith.
Sandra Dodd: So I hope you will all be much nicer than I am when you're older.
HallieK: <<Some things our partners do bring up old feelings and experiences that have nothing to do with them>> Yes! Mitch and I talk a LOT about this. About how our relationships with our parents inform our expectations and emotions and relations in our marriage.
Robin B.: Exactly, Hallie.
Sandra Dodd: Serah that's a hard one, about the movies and xbox. Is there a way for them to do it nearly silently, headphones, in another room, and you and your husband have spiritual contemplation without them?
Robin B.: I've watched you two, though, Sandra. This is an aberration, I think. And you've been away from each other for two months. I always found that transition back to "everyone in the house" (because my husband travels a lot) testy for awhile.
Robin B.: Not letting you off the hook, though.
Sandra Dodd: The aberration was that Keith messed with my birdseed.
Robin B.: <snort>
Sandra Dodd: He didn't make it better. He botched my excellent plan.
Sandra Dodd: But I also know why I was grumpy. It was Kirby's birthday and we hadn't sent him anything.
Sandra Dodd: There were things afoot on facebook that I couldn't ignore.
Sandra Dodd: I'm still not unpacked from the trip.
HallieK: "afoot" great word.
AlexPolikowsky1: Keith is needing a little more undivided attention??
Sandra Dodd: I had been looking at the room Marty mostly moved out of, but there was more STUFF in there, some junk and some treasure.
Sandra Dodd: Keith probably does.
Sandra Dodd: He needs me to be very sweet.
Robin B.: So, all those things factored into it. And we sometimes forget that our spouses have those kinds of things happening before they say or do anything. We want them to be as perfect as we aspire to be!
Sandra Dodd: He just fed birds for two months, because *I* want to maintain bird feeders.
Sandra Dodd: And I could have gotten that bucket back. I could've dried it with a towel even the first day.
HallieK: That's very sweet of him.
Sandra Dodd: Monday is Keith's TERRIBLE day at work, and I called him on a Monday morning. I'm horrible.
Serah: Yes, it has been tricky, but I am trying to help each side be more understanding of the other.
Sandra Dodd: Then I think.... Look how ashamed I am and how big a deal it was that I called and said "Why did you move the birdseed?"
AlexPolikowsky1: Just be extra sweet now.
Sandra Dodd: That was all. That's the "big fight" of the year here.
Sandra Dodd: Some couples have one or five of those a day.
Robin B.: Doing something without thinking. That's why making choices (and thinking about them!) is so important.
Sandra Dodd: So I'm not letting myself off the hook either, despite my joking about it above.
Robin B.: Yes. It would be nothing to most people, Sandra, but a big deal to you.
Sandra Dodd: I knew better and I didn't do better.
AlexPolikowsky1: I used to Sandra. I do not anymore. thanks to you a lot
and unschooling and clear discussions that you promote.Sandra Dodd: So sometimes progress looks like that.
Sandra Dodd: It looks like realizing that you feel bad about something that you might not even have noticed, without the intent to be kind and mindful.
Robin B.: Yup.
JennyC: My husband is very dramatic and for years I took that as him being upset with something and then I'd react. But he wasn't upset, or he was but he was more venting in a dramatic fashion that had nothing at all to do with me.
Colleen (NH): When Robert botches one of my excellent plans
I have the habit, if I at the moment can't hush myself, of saying the word "Seriously?" When we were first married, I would have been likely to launch into a many-word diatribe on how pissed I was, and how it was his fault. But I've learned and grown, and now I say "Seriously?" and he answers "Seriously" and we are both aware that I have noticed what he's done (or not done) and I feel good because I've said something and he feels good because what I've said is one simple word that we can both smile about. It might make more sense to us than it does in words - but it's sort of fight-free, drama-free code - and it makes us smile rather than frown.HallieK: Oh! about choices: the same way unschooling has helped us broaden our world of possibilities (as in, not restricting eating to "meals," not making ourselves sleep in separate rooms, or on "normal" schedules), we've learned to step outside of the box wrt creative solutions in our marriage, too. For instance, our new normal is separate after a disagreement and discuss it via text rather than talking in person.
Colleen (NH): It helps us connect, rather than be upset, and it turns whatever the issue was (muddy handprint on my just-washed door, or such) into something to laugh over together
AlexPolikowsky1: Just yesterday Brian was aggravated because he was overwhelmed and instead of doing like I used to years ago and being aggravated back at him and mad at him from being like that I was just sweet and supportive. It made it all better. It was not about me. I just helped him, did not say much and did it without commenting how crabby he was (he was very overwhlemed at work and had way too much to do).
Robin B.: That's cool, Colleen. It could so easily become a nasty "Seriously?" in other's mouths!
Robin B.: Tone is important.
Colleen (NH): Yes - tone is very important
Sandra Dodd: That's really nice, Colleen, and Robin's right, that someone could make "seriously?" sound quite nasty.
Sandra Dodd: My mother-in-law had a stabbing "whatever."
Sandra Dodd: Alex, I want to be more like you are with Brian.
Colleen (NH): I've heard Robbie sometimes saying it to himself - like when he makes a big castle creation, then he goes to get something and the dog manages to knock something into it on her way by. We hear a little "Seriously, Mo?" and then he'll giggle.
Robin B.: All this honest sweetness makes me weepy sometimes about how kind people are to their kids and spouses... It's a good weepy.
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes the thing I do to make things better is to not do anything. Be Quiet.
HallieK: Colleen, I love the "seriously" tactic. I struggle with just. being. quiet. so maybe I ought to try that so I can feel like "i said something".
JennyC: Oh, me too Sandra!
Sandra Dodd: And people who know me in person might attest that "be quiet" isn't one of my easy things.
AlexPolikowsky1: It took me a long time. Monday he told me he loved me and that he has figured me out. I guess it is because now he feels I got his back, I appreciate what he does and will help him and let him do things his way without acting like I am his mother
JennyC: Sometimes the best thing is nothing at all!
Robin B.: Yes, Jenny.
Colleen (NH): Hallie yes, that's how it started! Because saying Nothing can be hard for me.
AlexPolikowsky1: Yes Sandra be quiet was a big one for me!!!
Robin B.: I find, though, that I can be mean without saying anything. Like sighing or banging pots around or just with a look on my face. I am trying to be more aware of those things, too.
Celeste (FL): There's so much more to it than just being quiet. I can be quiet but my expression and body language say it all.
Robin B.: Celeste, right!
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes if Keith seems very cranky and volatile and I feel trapped, I say as nicely as possible "If there's something I can do to help, let me know. I'm going to... [check the laundry / do the dishes / feed the cat / check the mail].
Celeste (FL): I really try to center myself and let the anger/frustration/judgement go.
Robin B.: Being quiet is a good first step!
AlexPolikowsky1: lol just laughing at you not being quiet. Can you imagine Sandra and me together?? Lots of stories and lots of talking.
Sandra Dodd: And that one I learned from using those little tasks to separate my boys when they were 10, 12.
Celeste (FL): Robin, yup
AlexPolikowsky1: Yes Celeste and Robin about body language and expression. I am mastering that now. Neutral face and slow movement.
Sandra Dodd: Celeste, you're right. But "be still" isn't a good bit of advice. It sounds more like freezing in fear.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe being soft.
Sandra Dodd: Quiet and soft.
AlexPolikowsky1: Sandra I ask Brian directly " Do you need any thing? Can I help you?" He hates asking for help but loves help.
Robin B.: Alex, my neutral face looks like I'm scowling. My "thinking face" is worse!
Sandra Dodd: When Keith is dangerously cranky, I want to give him space to be calmer, and if I go and do something "fun" that seems hostile. Fiddling while Rome burns or something. So I do something that will indirectly benefit him. Some house job, or pick things up in the yard, or something where I'm not far away, and I'm being productive, but nothing so important that I couldn't quit and go where he was if he did want to talk or if he had an idea of how I could help.
HallieK: I'm not sure who said it, but they said how they like to ask themselves "how can i help?" (their children). I've added that to my little repertoire of difficulty-trouble-shooting. Its just as useful for my marriage, too. I think the best part of it is that it makes me think from his perspective: what does he need? what is he feeling and thinking?
Celeste (FL): Sandra, yeah. Not frozen. More like find an inner peace and then project that forward with all your might.
TeresaHY: I was reading a gardening article the other day and someone talked about how important it is to be attentive, to really look at what isn't going well and work on it, because unlike something like playing flute or jogging or drawing, you can't really work at it continually. There are only so many seasons a gardener has to work with in his or her life. I think partnerships can be like that. We only have so many challenging interactions together, and if you blow through them thoughtlessly, that's one fewer opportunities to grow something positive between you. Urgency isn't always the most helpful quality to add to a mix, but it reminds me of Sandra's page on why to work REALLY hard to get it NOW.
Celeste (FL): Oh, and don't expect anything in return. That expectation that the other person will soften or act in some way can just frustrate you all over again.
TeresaHY: And Sandra, that is golden, about being handy but not right there. I have a similar emotional response to my husband's expressions of frustration, and it's good to remind myself that it doesn't take much from me--and is very significant to him--for me to be nearby and passively supportive.
AlexPolikowsky1: I move away gently, close my eyes ( he cannot see ) take a deep breath and don't go banging, huffing and puffing and giving killer stares .
At least that is what I am going for Sandra Dodd: True. I don't expect it to make things better for him, necessarily. I try to keep within myself so that I'm not making it worse.
Sandra Dodd: (True to what Celeste said about the expectation)
Robin B.: Teresa, I like that gardening analogy, even though I'm not a gardener
Especially the part about "there are only so many seasons a gardener has to work with in his or her life." As you said, same with partnerships.Sandra Dodd: Could you guys look at Teresa's gardening analogy again? I like where she went with it fine, but I want to make another departure from it.
Sandra Dodd: Urgency to make things better can actually be making things worse.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe a marriage can handle 100 fights.
Sandra Dodd: So save some for when you're old.
Robin B.: Like saving the "no's" up.
Sandra Dodd: Like tickets to say "no."
Sandra Dodd: We can't wait until next year to make the marriage better, though.
Sandra Dodd: That happens in very small parcels of time and energy.
HallieK: Putting a number on the fights, might feel scary, though.
Sandra Dodd: Don't count them. That's not the point.
Sandra Dodd: It's based on an example that I think is from talks I've done, and not in writing, about imagining that when a baby is born it comes with a coupon book of 200 "no"s.
HallieK: Ahh. i knew you didn't mean it literally.
Sandra Dodd: That's as many times as he can hear "no" and it still be okay—that he will listen to you 200 times, but after that, you've used it all up.
Colleen (NH): My husband and I have had a few conversations about the idea that if we're going to make up anyway, there's not a ton of point in fighting. Like I could get mad or he could get mad but then if we're going to get over it, then skipping the fight sort of makes sense. Like why bother getting mad if we're going to be Not Mad soon anyway.
Sandra Dodd: Kids can get to the point that they don't care what their mom says.
Sandra Dodd: That's less likely if a mom is careful with what she says.
HallieK: I used to be very fearful of divorce, though, like it were a looming threat, something outside our control.
Colleen (NH): It sort of becomes irrelevant to be angry, if it's all ok after a little while anyway.
HallieK: It was tremendously helpful for me "remove" the possibility of divorce.
AlexPolikowsky1: The more you are sweet and the stronger your relationship is the easier is to get over small bumps. But lots of small bumps create a big hole and once you are in it it will be very hard to get out.
Sandra Dodd: But, Colleen, if you do have the fight, there can be things said and done that leave a residue and it doesn't completely disappear.
Sandra Dodd: So waiting until people are happy again is better than having a fight and then waiting.
Sandra Dodd: Hallie, were your parents divorced?
Sandra Dodd: And were your husband's?
HallieK: Mine were on the verge for my whole childhood, then officially divorced my freshman year of college.
Sandra Dodd: Mine divorced when I was a freshman in college, too.
Sandra Dodd: My husband's were still together, over 50 years, when they died.
Colleen (NH): Sandra, that's what I mean - skip the fight, go to the happy.
Colleen (NH): That way there's no residue.
Sandra Dodd: I remember a couple of times when I was in my 20's and Keith and I would have a fight, me saying "So are we getting divorced and Keith looking at me like it was a total and absolute non-sequitor.
Sandra Dodd: And he said after the second one, when he was calm, why are you talking about divorce and I thought about it and thought.... because of my parents.
Sandra Dodd: But because of his parents, he was NOT thinking about it.
Colleen (NH): Robert just walked in and I told him what I was trying to say - he says "for some people the Fight is important - but if you can skip over the fight and not need it, it's better".
HallieK: Mitch's family has lots of abrupt abandonment history. Mine has slow-motion-train-wreck history.
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes I just let Keith be grumpy. I didn't put the power drill away yesterday. I put it near the front door, but not in its case in the garage. I used it to take a shelf down in Marty's room.
Sandra Dodd: Keith grumped about it, and I said sorry, shelf... briefly, longer than "sorry shelf" but not much.
Sandra Dodd: And he picked it up in a slightly grumpy fashion and went out.
HallieK: I think many young (newly) married couples think of it as "a possibility." But your site, and reading what other unschoolers have written, helped me to just *stop* thinking of it as an option. Now its a given that we will always be together.
JennyC: We took divorce off the table too.
JennyC: And both of our parents are still married to their original partners.
AlexPolikowsky1: Yeah it is better if I let Brian be grumpy and not react by being grumpy back. Like when your child is grumpy and you keep the calm.
Sandra Dodd: Keith and I probably both pictured in our heads what could have been said by each party, and then let it go.
AlexPolikowsky1: Brian and I took divorce off of the table when we decided to have children. That was before we got married.
Sandra Dodd: The garage usually opens with a doorbell button inside the front door, but that's been broken since May, before I left. And I need two hands to open the garage, so I would've had to put the drill down.
Sandra Dodd: So Keith probably thought all that, so I didn't need to complain about the door.
JennyC: That helped a lot when we were having hard times, that all of our parents were still married and were there to help us.
Sandra Dodd: And I know Keith likes things put away, and Keith knows I leave things out.
HallieK: Alex, yes! we just put words to that this weekend, about not letting each other's big emotions impact us any more than connor's big emotions. Not ignoring, but just trying to stay calm and supportive and remembering that the emotions are not acts of aggression.
Sandra Dodd: Hallie, I'm glad to know that you're moved more toward permanence because of some things I collected or wrote.
Sandra Dodd: I feel that emotion-as-aggression thing sometimes, because Keith is so big and strong.
Colleen (NH): My parents were divorced, and I was afraid I would be too. Before we got married, I asked Robert if we'd ever get divorced, and he said "it's not an option." And that was that - as we've told Robbie (who has seen people get divorced) some people are paper-clipped together, and some are stapled - and we're stapled. Robbie added "with permanent, unremovable, fireproof staples." I said yes
TeresaHY: Sandra, your example about the shelf brings me back to Robin mentioning not being reactionary. That was probably, what, 10 seconds of internal dialog that you waited to pass, and then made a better decision. That's something I am practicng hard at, the sweet waiting, not the angry waiting. (There's another page--the one about counting to ten in order to calm down, not to wind up internally!)
TeresaHY: My husband Joshua and I have talked about the emotion-as-aggression thing, too.
TeresaHY: Some of my baggage has to do with seeing those kind of emotions as being the kickoff for a much longer, much more intense explosion of criticism, berating, raging, etc. But, it's not like that for everyone. Sometimes, people grump, and get mad, and it's a more pure expression than what I grew up with. It's really letting off steam, not to burn other people, just to release some pressure.
Sandra Dodd: -=- That was probably, what, 10 seconds of internal dialog that you waited to pass, and then made a better decision. That's something I am practicng hard at, the sweet waiting, not the angry waiting. -=-
Sandra Dodd: I try to get physically away.
Sandra Dodd: As Keith was picking up the drill, I was on my way downstairs, so I could've stopped and talked (too much), but I said oh, sorry—I took Marty's shelf down with it—and kept going where I was going.
Laura z: I have learned to breathe
JennyC: Yes, Teresa! I understand that, not having grown up with intense emotional anything in regards to my own parents and then marrying someone who can be overly dramatic about things.
AlexPolikowsky1: Yes sometimes I need to walk away, not in a reactionary walk away way, but just physically be far to calm down and think.
Robin B.: The worst things I have ever said have been when I was taking myself physically away but I turned back to re-engage. Ugh.
Sandra Dodd: I do that with Holly. I go back with "and another thing..." sometimes.
JennyC: Chamille wondered, a couple of months ago, why we stayed together when all of her friend's parents had not. She said that she had thought about that a lot when she was little
JennyC: She was the odd one out, I guess and it seemed obvious to her when she was little, that parents divorce, and here we were not getting divorced.
Sandra Dodd: Did Chamille appreciate it at some point? Did she have an insight about how or what?
JennyC: Yes, I think she really does appreciate having both her parents around.
AlexPolikowsky1: Gigi asks a lot of questions about me and her dad. She is interested. She loves her dad a lot.
Laura z: I have a hard time walking away and letting go
Sandra Dodd: Laura mentioned breathing.
Sandra Dodd: Someone said one time that she counts to ten and then she's still mad so what should she do, and a couple of people said "Count slower."
AlexPolikowsky1: My kids really do too Jenny. They feel safe at home with their parents and no instabilities or threats.
Sandra Dodd: Angrily holding one's breath and counting to ten in a hostile fashion isn't the "count to ten" that's recommended.
Sandra Dodd: Breathing to ten is way better.
JennyC: For Chamille, I think she's just now starting to think about it and reflect on it and I will likely hear more in the next year, in bits and pieces.
JennyC: For Chamille, I think she's just now starting to think about it and reflect on it and I will likely hear more in the next year, in bits and pieces.
Sandra Dodd: Breathing can be done in an overt, hostile "I'm breathing so I won't hurt you" passive-aggressive way, too.
Sandra Dodd: That cancels it right out.
AlexPolikowsky1: I once was chatting with Schuyler about relationships and we were talking about choices.
AlexPolikowsky1: I said I make a choice to see my husband in a good light, to see the good of him and I make a choice to love him.
Jihong: Lately my kids started seeing divorced family and got worried. Orion asked me if we were getting divorced, I asked why. He said he saw us argue. Now I need to pay more attention not to raise my voice.
AlexPolikowsky1: I do think love becomes a choice. The romantic and crazy lust you feel in the beginning changes. It is not that it is less or not as good. It is just evolving.
AlexPolikowsky1: Jihong my kids do not like to see us argue or have a heated conversation either.
AlexPolikowsky1: So where i was going with this is that I make a conscious effort to see my husband in a good light and not focus on anything that he is not or does not.
HallieK: I worry about that for Connor, on the occasions when we argue in front of him, I try to stop and be mindful of what it's making him feel. And sometimes I'll even say, "you want us to talk nicely, huh?"
HallieK: And then we all relax a little.
AlexPolikowsky1: I do not join husband bashing girl talk the same way I do not do it when people are bashing their children.
Marta Pires: I read such a sweet article today about love and what it really is. It reminded me of how unschooling principles have helped me to see love this way. You can find it here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisajo-baker-/when-you-think-your-love-story-is-boring_b_3677859.html
Jihong: Alex, they were not concerned until lately they found out not all mommies and daddies live together. They asked lots of questions why our new friend only had dad.
You can find it here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisajo-baker-/when-you-think-your-love-story-is-boring_b_3677859.htmlJihong: Alex, they were not concerned until lately they found out not all mommies and daddies live together. They asked lots of questions why our new friend only had dad.
Sandra Dodd: When I was little if one of my parents was mad at the other, I would go in my room, or just be very quiet.
Colleen (NH): If I speak sharply or snap at my husband, my son will often say "Mom, Ga loves you" (he calls his dad Ga) - which I take as his reminder to me to stay in a happy place. And it's impossible to resist smiling when he does it. To him, love is key
Sandra Dodd: My mom would've turned her wrath on me if I had said a word.
Sandra Dodd: But all my kids have calmly said something, sometimes something funny, if Keith and I are having words in front of them.
Sandra Dodd: It didn't scare them that we were arguing, and they weren't afraid to say something.
Colleen (NH): Alex - husband-bashing - yes I stay far away from conversations like that! A bunch of people complaining does *nothing* to make the world a better place - and a lot to make it a less-good place. Especially when people are complaining about someone they are supposed to love!
AlexPolikowsky1: Yes Jihong, Gigi has asked me why someone was not together anymore. What I said is that dad and I have made a decision to be together and we do not plan to not stay together. That made her feel better.
Laura z: Caitlyn has started saying funny things now if we are arguing to try to distract us
Marta Pires: It starts with something a teenager said about love:
-=-"My love life will never be satisfactory until someone runs through an airport to stop me from getting on a flight." -- Teenager Post #14029.-=-
And then the blogger writes, referring to her husband:
-=-He drove us all home 18 hours over two days. Three kids and hundreds of miles and potty breaks and princess pull-ups, the car covered in the markers I'd bought for window art. Turns out the soft beige ceiling of a mini van makes a perfect canvas. Rainbow swirls color the door panels and there are goldfish crackers crushed so deep into the seats that they will likely be there come next summer and this same road trip all the way to Northern Michigan and the lake that his family have been coming to for decades. He's never run through an airport for me.-=-
And for more, you'll have to check out the article.
-=-"My love life will never be satisfactory until someone runs through an airport to stop me from getting on a flight." -- Teenager Post #14029.-=-
And then the blogger writes, referring to her husband:
-=-He drove us all home 18 hours over two days. Three kids and hundreds of miles and potty breaks and princess pull-ups, the car covered in the markers I'd bought for window art. Turns out the soft beige ceiling of a mini van makes a perfect canvas. Rainbow swirls color the door panels and there are goldfish crackers crushed so deep into the seats that they will likely be there come next summer and this same road trip all the way to Northern Michigan and the lake that his family have been coming to for decades. He's never run through an airport for me.-=-
And for more, you'll have to check out the article.
Jihong on ipad: Great, Alex! I said the same thing.
AlexPolikowsky1: Sweet, Marta.
AlexPolikowsky1: Brian and I joked about how we are a bunch of rednecks with a dead car in the lawn ( my old Saab that we want to fix and I love that car!) and how we do not care about not being perfect , perfect homes, yard, ...
Jihong on ipad: I have to say, after I stopped breast feeding my daughter last September, my husband was happy to get more attention from me. I think it was hormone thing
Jihong on ipad: I have to say, after I stopped breast feeding my daughter last September, my husband was happy to get more attention from me. I think it was hormone thing
BeaMantovani: What do you do when your husband just won't take you walking away as an answer, and keeps starting up the argument again?
AlexPolikowsky1: Maybe he just wants you to listen to him Bea???
TeresaHY: Some of the things my kids have said mid-argument have been really spot-on. It's been such a gift, both that they feel free to chime in and that what they have to offer is an astute observation that we couldn't see, knee-deep in it as we were, or a helpful suggestion.
Sandra Dodd: I was off reading that. It's nice. I sent it to Lori Odhner.
Marta Pires:
BeaMantovani: Maybe, yes.
AlexPolikowsky1: Listen and Acknowledge his point and if you cannot answer then say you will think about it?
JennyC: Bea, maybe the key is to not get to that in the first place, de-escalate it before it gets to a point where he wants to argue.
HallieK: I've thought about making a small group facebook group for some unschooling couples to gather and practice gratitude. Mitch and I did a little bit of the gratitude journal (from the book, 59 seconds), and that was very helpful for both of us. To get in the habit of building up lots and lots of little examples of thankfulness. that could cushion the grumpy feelings whenever they arise.
(This couples-group conversation picks back up near the end.)
Colleen (NH): I sent Lori a thank you email the other day - she is awesome. I start every morning reading her email, and Just Add Light - it's a good combination and both go well with coffee
JennyC: Yes, what Alex said too, sometimes people simply need to vent and be heard.
JennyC: Or you can ask directly what you can do about it.
Sandra Dodd: Bea, I don't mean walk out on someone who's talking. I mean things that are more like "I'll be right back."
Marta Pires: Me too, Colleen! (the starting the morning with lovely e-mails part)
Sandra Dodd: I agree about not letting things get that far, if possible.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe listen without the "yeah but" energy people have.
AlexPolikowsky1: What Sandra said and not engage in "fighting" back or reactions that are negative and angry. If he wants to talk, listen.
JennyC: If I see my husband starting down that path of crazy frustration that will likely lead to an argument, the best thing I can do is to stop whatever I'm doing and tickle his back or touch his head.
Sandra Dodd: And when he's done say "I'll think about that" or "I hadn't thought about it that way," and then maybe go and fold laundry. Give him some space, and you some space.
AlexPolikowsky1: Yes! What Sandra said.
JennyC: And often, I repeat to myself in my own head, "this isn't about me, this is about him being upset."
Sandra Dodd: Not that it's easy, and not that it's always going to work.
JennyC: It's better than escalating an argument.
JennyC: Oh yes, what Sandra said above about listening without thinking "yeah but."
AlexPolikowsky1: If he wants you to say something then and there I would ask him questions. Clarify what he said. He may need to feel he was really heard and understood and that his opinion is being taken seriously.
HallieK: Focus more on understanding him than getting him to understand you.
Sandra Dodd: One of the best thoughts I ever had was remembering that the little boy is still inside the man.
Sandra Dodd: His hurts and fears are still in there.
Sandra Dodd: His memories of times before I was in his life, are still in there.
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes little boys need a hug, or to play
Sandra Dodd: But they probably don't need MORE mean mothering.
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes little boys were deprived, told to wait, told to help, not to play, whatever it was.
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes little boys were deprived, told to wait, told to help, not to play, whatever it was.
HallieK: Yes! We agreed the other night that it would be best for all of us if each of us would be as sweet and kind and gentle to the other as if we were still children.
Sandra Dodd: If you have awareness of any of your husband's childhood frustrations, remember that those are still in there and sometimes will be closer to the surface.
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes I do one or two little life-improving things that I wouldn't have done if I hadn't said to myself "Do a couple of life-improving things" (or something like that).
Sandra Dodd: Like change the sheets, take out the trash near my husband's desk, take him some lassi or juice when he's working in the garage or outside, buy something he likes, at the store.
Sandra Dodd: Like change the sheets, take out the trash near my husband's desk, take him some lassi or juice when he's working in the garage or outside, buy something he likes, at the store.
TeresaHY: Sometimes when my husband is angry or tense or especially testy and frustrated, I can remind myself, "This isn't about me. This is his experience right now, in his head, and his body." That thought is best followed up with what someone said earlier about "How can I help?" It's much harder when I think it really IS about me, but whether or not to take something personally is a choice, too. Again, not in a passive-aggressive way, in order to not take responsibility for one's self, but trying to get a bird's eye view of the situation is often good for me to try at some point early on before things get too far in.
HallieK: That's part of loving unconditionally, not witholding affection or attention or our whole self from each other. ever. (and I think both of our parents did that to us as punishment)
Marta Pires: That has been important for me too Sandra (remembering past frustrations), even though I don't need to do it often, since Bruno is probably one of the most sweet, patient, kind men I've ever known -- and he never gets mad at me, ever.
TeresaHY: Sandra, about the small life-improving things, my husband--all of our 11 years together--has thanked me when he notices them. Until very recently, I thought, how odd! Why would he thank me for that? But maybe he has been accepting them as gifts all along.
Sandra Dodd: I'm glad I got to meet some of your husbands.
Sandra Dodd: It helps to know people in person.
Marta Pires:
AlexPolikowsky1: So true about the little boy inside of the big man. Brian does have lots of hurts from childhood.
Sandra Dodd: So Marta and Alex (and Jenny, too, and Laura or anyone...) reading here after knowing me in person, is it different?
Sandra Dodd: Knowing how I talk?
Sandra Dodd: Since May, I met three of you, with husbands.
Sandra Dodd: Since May, I met three of you, with husbands.
ChrisSanders: Yes, some.
trista: It was extremely helpful for me to meet you in person.
Sandra Dodd: So I can picture Brian's chair and TV, and how he comes in tired from the barn, now.
JennyC: Yes, Sandra, although I never believed you were anything but nice. What I didn't know was that you were not only nice, but funny!
Sandra Dodd: And I haven't been to Chris Sander's house, but have seen her and her husband in different places, different times.
trista: Jenny, yes.
Sandra Dodd: I got to meet Bruno and now I can picture Marta's house.
Robin B.: What Jenny said.
AlexPolikowsky1: Sandra I felt I knew you the moment I saw you come down the airport. What changed is that I really like you even more and miss you. You are fun to have around. For the people that do not know Sandra she is funny, says naughty things and has great stories. She is fun, has a very sweet smile.
Sandra Dodd: Things haven't been very funny the past few days, but my average is funnier.
Laura z: Yes, it helped meeting you at Un in the Sun, but I had a good sense of who you were simply from hearing you for so many years through your words. But it was good to put a person to those words.
AlexPolikowsky1: I now feel you are a dear friend.
Sandra Dodd: Thanks, Alex.
Robin B.: You have a very soft and musical way of talking, Sandra, and I imagine you saying things in that tone.
Sandra Dodd: Teresa, I like that your husband thanks you.
Sandra Dodd: That might mean that he would appreciate you thanking him for some things.
Marta Pires: Oh my, what Alex said!!!
Yes to every single word! The minute I saw you at the airport Sandra, I felt I knew you. It was so nice!Sandra Dodd: I make first impressions at airports. Not ideal.
Sandra Dodd: All tired and confused...
AlexPolikowsky1: Yes very soothing Robin. I loved hearing Sandra talk.
Sandra Dodd: Teresa said a lot of good things today. Lots of you did.
ChrisSanders: And getting to be around Keith and Kirby, Marty and Holly on multiple occasions means I know how you all interact and how they interact with others -- just like you write about them.
Sandra Dodd: Thanks, Chris.
Laura z: I wish I had gotten more time to talk with you at the conference.
Robin B.: You're also a thoughtful host, Sandra. I felt at home in your home. That means a lot to me.
Sandra Dodd: Hallie, there's a slight problem with a facebook group for couples.
Sandra Dodd: Some might get cranky that others are getting along better. It could make comparisons.
HallieK: Tell me.
HallieK: What about just moms?
Robin B.: Yes, Chris - I was just going to say something about that.
AlexPolikowsky1: And a thoughtful guest. She was even icing my husband's knee! She tries not to bother you and impose (which is terrible in my house because I am not a great host).
Marta Pires: Another thing that I realized by having you here, and that doesn't transpire in your recordings, is that you are so thoughtful! Very attentive to small details that you know will make people happy. I learned a lot from you ever since I found your writings, but meeting you and seeing you in action was even better!
Kim_AR: Sandra, I met you back in 2005 or 6 at the Live & Learn Conference (St Louis, or Abq, or NC--don't remember). I took a break from online unschooly stuff until just recently. I think you're still the sweet, helpful, intelligent, person I remember.
Sandra Dodd: That could work. Dads might be fine, but be wary, is all, for some people not to paint so glowing a picture that others feel deflated.
HallieK: That makes sense.
Sandra Dodd: Kim, thanks.
Sandra Dodd: Does AR mean arkansas?
Kim_AR: Yes.
Sandra Dodd: Or are you a pirate or something?
Sandra Dodd: Could be both.
Kim_AR: Sittin by Laura.
Kim_AR: Arg
Robin B.:
Laura z: Sitting here with Kim
in ArkansasSandra Dodd: Eight minutes.
Robin B.: Wow, this one went fast!
Sandra Dodd: If people want to see photos of some of the things I saw on my exciting adventures, not all the sets are up, but most are, and they're linked on the lefthand side of my regular blog.
JennyC: Oh, cool!
JennyC: I enjoyed Joyce's pictures of bikes.
Laura z: I will need to read back through everything, I missed a lot of the beginning stuck at the dentist.
Sandra Dodd: http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/p/links-t...
Sandra Dodd: Does anyone have a pressing problem or issue we could help with since we're here?
HallieK: Sandra, I love your pictures. And I definitely hear your voice as kind and soft and very frequently funny.
Robin B.: We need to link more of your videos, so people can hear you, Sandra.
Marta Pires: Do you have enough material for your article, Sandra?
AlexPolikowsky1: No pressing problem, but wanted to show Sandra Cupcake is 3 months old, still little but going strong:
AlexPolikowsky1: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151754407782430&set=a.41976037429.50005.790322429&type=1&theater
AlexPolikowsky1: Sandra was here when she was born a month early and we did not think she was going to make it. Well she did and she sure is spoiled and cute.
JennyC: So cute!
Robin B.: Her name is Sandra Cupcake?
HallieK: And my buddy, Chelsea, told me how nice it was meeting you at the conference she and Dan and Cadence went to. And we laughed (in agreement) about a story of Brie wanting to follow you around the country like a groupie.
**LATER NOTE from Sandra. Brie had said Michael was inspired
to carry my suitcase around for me or something.****
Laura z: Lol
Sandra Dodd: Yes, Marta! I'll credit people.
Sandra Dodd: Some Germans will read some of your names.
Sandra Dodd: Thank you for that.
Sandra Dodd: Thank you for that.
AlexPolikowsky1: Just Cupcake.
Robin B.: Yeah, just kidding. I thought it was a cute name though!
Sandra Dodd: Well I might not have a calf named after me, but I have a fish in Lisbon.
Robin B.: A fish in Lisbon?
ChrisSanders: Sandra, when your article is written will you announce/post it somewhere? Zachary is in Germany now until next July and I'd like to bring it to his attention.
Sandra Dodd: Chelsea and Dan are very nice.
BeaMantovani: You said you might talk about procrastination of priorities... I was curious about that.
HallieK: Yes. We love them.
HallieK: Alex, Cupcake is adorable!
AlexPolikowsky1: Actually Cupcake is Acupcake because her mom starts with A so all calves will start with A> I have no S cows now.
BeaMantovani: Oh, procrastination or priorities.
Sandra Dodd: Is she okay?
Robin B.: Sweet, Alex.
Sandra Dodd: I meant I have been doing other things since I got home, rather than putting all my things away or writing an article.
BeaMantovani: Oh, I see.
AlexPolikowsky1: She is great. She does have bad front knees and I hope they get better not worse. But she is otherwise very healthy and strong.
Sandra Dodd: It wasn't so much that I was procrastinating about writing it that I was choosing to do that serious important thing.
Robin B.: I should be sewing a hula costume. I'm here instead.
Sandra Dodd: I was going to ask if that knee should be so big, on Cupcake.
Robin B.: Oh, yes. I noticed that, too.
Laura z: Hula costume Robin, something coming up?
AlexPolikowsky1: Yeah, they are big and buckle. I don't think she is going to grow so that may be good that she does not.
Sandra Dodd: Chris, what's happened before is they send me a PDF after the paper magazine comes out, and I put it on my site. So it will be announced at http://aboutunschooling.blogspot.com
BeaMantovani: Will they send you the german version too?
Sandra Dodd: Probably in early October, maybe sooner.
ChrisSanders: Ok, what is the name of the paper magazine?
Robin B.: Yes. My hula sisters and I are dancing with the Maui group HAPA at a theatre in a little town called Mt. Vernon this weekend.
Sandra Dodd: They only send the German version.
Sandra Dodd: Unerzogen.
ChrisSanders: Thank you.
Sandra Dodd: You can see some older articles here: http://sandradodd.com/german
Laura z: Oops, better get the german dictionary out.
AlexPolikowsky1: I have been really busy. Should be calling hotels and finding receipts for a tax auction from the State. At least I send Robin something on the mail yesterday ( I am terrible about going to the post office)
Robin B.: You did?
BeaMantovani: Cool.
Robin B.: I'm also bad at that, Alex. Things will sit for weeks.
Sandra Dodd: It meant "bad kid" or some such.
Colleen (NH): I have the opposite of a problem
Robert is all excited about the possibility of getting Minecon tickets tonight, and has just booked us a hotel room in anticipation of success. Yay!!Sandra Dodd: I suppose in context it makes more sense. I hope.
AlexPolikowsky1: Yep Robin, weeks!
Robin B.: I should take advantage of the post office wanting to pick things up from me, but I haven't gotten around to arranging that.
Sandra Dodd: I hope you do get some, Colleen.
JennyC: Good luck with Minecon tickets!
ChrisSanders: Ah, good. I'm going to send Zach the link to your German articles.
Robin B.: Yes, hope you get them, Colleen.
Sandra Dodd: Thank you all very much for being here. I did need the help, and the break.
AlexPolikowsky1: It was nice to chat again. Lots of great ideas. I will go now and do things that are waiting for me!
Robin B.: Do you need people to help get tickets? Is it like the Blizzcon thing where you have to be in an online queue?
JennyC: Glad to have you back Sandra!
Robin B.: Indeed.
Marta Pires: I missed the chats! So glad they're back!
AlexPolikowsky1: Yep^^^^
Colleen (NH): Thanks all - fingers are crossed!!
Sandra Dodd: Thanks, Jenny. Next week... back to the book, I guess.
Robin B.: I'll look forward to the package, Alex!
Sandra Dodd: Be nice to your husbands. :-)
Robin B.:
http://sandradodd.com/spouses
http://sandradodd.com/principles/
