Wednesday, September 18, 2013

Clarity


Laura Z joined the chat 
Laura Z: Hey Bea. 
Laura Z: We're early.

Capn Franko joined the chat 
Capn Franko: Good morning.

Laura Z: Afternoon! 

Marta Pires joined the chat 

Jill Parmer joined the chat 

Bárbara Correia joined the chat 

BeaMantovani: Hello!
BeaMantovani: Today I might even be able to participate in the chat 

Capn Franko: Even when I'm here I tend to not articipate! (wink)

Sandra Dodd joined the chat
Sandra Dodd: articipation... articipation is making me wait...
Sandra Dodd: I have not forgotten. I have two "cleanup on aisle RadicalUnshoolingInfo!" matters to attend to.

Capn Franko: ...keepin' me wa-ay-ay-ay-aytin'

BeaMantovani: To pass the time, let me make an announcement: Today I pledged allegiance to the queen. 

Shallay joined the chat 

Jill Parmer: Bea, did you become a new citizen?

Shallay: keep calm carry on

BeaMantovani: Yes, I'm Canadian now  (also still French)

Jill Parmer: Well congratulations, you sound excited!

Capn Franko: Congratulations, Bea!

BeaMantovani: Yes, I am, oddly. I didn't think it was a big deal, but I'm still kind of excited, now that it's done. Might be the lack of sleep, I had to wake up early this morning 
BeaMantovani: thanks

AlexPolikowsky2 joined the chat 

Capn Franko: Alex, did you send in your clone?

Laura Z: Hey Alex check out the video I posted from Youtube - Argentine movie 9 Reinas.

AlexPolikowsky2: Congrats Bea!!

BeaMantovani: thanks 

AlexPolikowsky2: Doing this from my phone!
AlexPolikowsky2: Send me a message Laura because I am not home!

Sandra Dodd: I'm here! Tadaaa!

Laura Z: I'll tag you on FB 

Sandra Dodd: I pledge allegiance
Sandra Dodd: To the queen
Sandra Dodd: of the united states of America and to the republic for which [she?
Sandra Dodd: .... oh it all fell apart.
Sandra Dodd: Do you know the song, Bea? O Canada?
Sandra Dodd: Contractually, that song cheats.
Sandra Dodd: Morally, that song lies.
Sandra Dodd: Musically, that song is perfect.

BeaMantovani: I sang it today, right after I pledged allegiance to the Queen of Canada 

Sandra Dodd: French or English?

BeaMantovani: but I probably sang out of tune, and didn't pay attention to the words 
BeaMantovani: bilingual version, actually 

Sandra Dodd: I was in a train in wales and there was a long set of safety instructions in Welsh. And in English it said in case of emergency, break glass, and there was an axe in there. That was not "bilingual."
Sandra Dodd: That was "If you read Welsh, we have much safety information for you. If you do not read Welsh, whatever."

BeaMantovani: lol, yeah, the song was not exactly bilingual either. The beginning was in French, and the last two verse in English

AlexPolikowsky2: Lol

Sandra Dodd: We have over 10 (+) people here so we could start the topic!
Sandra Dodd: Clarity. What's clear and what's... murky, muddy, poopy, tainted, dangerous, suspicious.... (some other alternatives to clarity?)
Sandra Dodd: dishonest
Sandra Dodd: -----plagiarized------ (rough week(s) for me, with plagiarism)
Sandra Dodd: obfuscational
Sandra Dodd: wishy-washy
Sandra Dodd: The first verse in English doesn't say the same things the first verse in French does. That contributes to a divided nation.

Capn Franko: Howzabout discussion so abstract as to be essentially meaningless?

Sandra Dodd: Does anyone else what to propose an opposite-of-clear word?
Sandra Dodd: So indirect or so airy-fairy?

Marta Pires: Confusing?

Sandra Dodd: So "try to please everybody"?

BeaMantovani: the two songs don't say exactly the same thing, actually. not just the first verse.

Capn Franko: Yeah. I'm thinking of Nicholas Connault on Radical Unschooling Info.

AlexPolikowsky2: Yes Frank I see that a lot in some places and quotes from some people. Beautiful words and that is all.

BeaMantovani: He's French and he's in Australia, and he annoys me 

AlexPolikowsky2: 

Jill Parmer: Privately, I call it word salad, when someone throws around a bunch of words in different ways and is trying to be enlightened and airy fairy.

Capn Franko: So there! (grin)
Capn Franko: I call it intellectual masturbation.

Shallay: hmm stroking themselves

AlexPolikowsky2: World Salad?? Hey I love salad, Jill!

LydiaKoltai left this message 
foggy or fuzzy

Jill Parmer: Not worLd salad. Word salad.

AlexPolikowsky2: Join in Lydia.

BeaMantovani: I think the French invented intellectual masturbation 
BeaMantovani: I know a lot of French people like that.

Shallay: Makes them feel good but doesn't really do anything for anyone else...

Capn Franko: Shallay, FTW!
Capn Franko: Bea, I look to my mentors, the Jesuits, for excellent syllogisms and tautologies.

Jill Parmer: Intellectual masturbastion doesn't seem intellectual, it seems...dumbness trying for intellect.

Capn Franko: Not fuzzy, quite crisp, but essentially meaningless.

Jill Parmer: Is it smart or intellectual to use big words put together in such ways that your listeners/audience don't understand?

LydiaKoltai left this message 2 days ago:
sometimes my thoughts are a bit fuzzy and unclear, particularly if I am anxious about something

Sandra Dodd: Yes. It is intellectual.
Sandra Dodd: Lydia, click "join chat" or enter chat.

LydiaKoltai joined the chat

Serah joined the chat

LydiaKoltai: ok, got it.

Capn Franko: Possibly intellectual but useless to those who don't share your lexicon.


Serah: Hi everyone.

BeaMantovani: I think intellectual as opposed to practical. It's all theory but no practical applications.

Sandra Dodd: Quite often useless to those who do understand.

BeaMantovani: a lot of the time

Andrea joined the chat
Andrea: Hello everyone!
Andrea: Jill--sometimes I wonder if they even know what they are saying with all those big words.

Sandra Dodd: But especially when we're dealing with parents in a biological relationship to children and spouses/partners, we're not dealing with "intellectual" issues. We're dealing with hearth, home, mother, water—the ancient concepts.

Jill Parmer: Me too, Andrea. I wish I could be inside their head watching the thought process.

Heather Booth joined the chat

Andrea: I haven't been to chat in a long while. Are we still working through the Big Book? If so, what page?

Jill Parmer: Page 235. Clarity.

Capn Franko: Einstein used to say (paraphrased): If you can't explain it simply, you don't really understand it.

Sandra Dodd: Thanks, Jill. I was looking.

Andrea: Thanks!

Sandra Dodd: I'm all for that, Frank.

Celeste joined the chat

Sandra Dodd: There was an online zine for which I wrote, regularly, and well. 
Sandra Dodd: The editor wanted to "up" the "reading level" and make it sound more like a textbook, more like a college paper, and I said no, I'm writing in my voice, leave it alone.
Sandra Dodd: She wanted to have a consistency of tone and "level." I said then write the whole thing yourself, because the point of having several authors is to have different voices.
Sandra Dodd: The "jargon" we do use for unschooling is one very old word: strew
Sandra Dodd: Maybe that's it. 
Sandra Dodd: And we're using that word as it was intended, thought the practice is not to scatter things, but place a thing or two as "conversation pieces," as something to be discovered.
Sandra Dodd: Monkey platter.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe jargon, but the term came from a particular trip to the zoo, years ago, and the story was told, and the term was adopted and used on a page, and there it lives.
Sandra Dodd: "Unschooling" is jargon, but we inherited it.
Sandra Dodd: "Radical Unschooling" isn't jargon. It's plain English, just waiting for people to wonder which "radical," and it's "radius, from the root."
Sandra Dodd: Outside those few oft-discussed words, we're using plain English, easy English, clear, normal English.

Shallay: Language changes, like the new definition of literally is very figurative.

Jill Parmer: I'm missing a piece...."unschooling" is jargon, but "radical unschooling" is not jargon?

Kim_AR joined the chat 

Shallay: so should our use of language change the definition?

Sandra Dodd: Unschooling is a made up word, sort of (made up by the rules, but made up by more than one person and used more than one way)

Andrea: Oh my! I hadn't fully thought about the multiple definitions of radical before. Duh. Other unschoolers I know are obviously using different definitions of the word than I am...

Sandra Dodd: But once we have our internal accepted "normal" definition of unschooling," then to add an adjective is normal English.

Jill Parmer: Ah. Thank you.

Capn Franko: Usage often changes the definition of words or phrases.

Sandra Dodd: Shallay, we're not changing definitions.
Sandra Dodd: Language changes, but we're not talking about that now.

Laura Z joined the chat 

Kim_AR: My son wrote his first college English paper today. On unschooling.
Kim_AR: It was to be autobiographical. Why he is in college and his goals/plans.

Sandra Dodd: Within any language there are "sayings" and idiomatic expressions (there's a hoity phrase, meaning a lump of words that go together and have been stuck that way for a long time)
Sandra Dodd: Nice, Kim.

Shallay: franko - so then whatever is most common becomes accepted

Sandra Dodd: When people come to a discussion and they're using expressions passed down for 50 years or more, it's sometimes an indication that they are not so much thinking clearly and then writing as they are channelling a voice from their heads.
Sandra Dodd: Shallay, there are words with multiple definitions and one doesn't crowd out the others.

Capn Franko: That's the tendency. "On accident" used to be incorrect. Now it's acceptable. Usage.

Sandra Dodd: When I was a kid we were corrected if we said "really" or "a lot."
Sandra Dodd: When I was a kid we were corrected if we said "really" or "a lot."

Capn Franko: What I see a lot of in unschooling discussions lately is people coming to a discussion with their own new, jargonized version of the meaning of a common word - "freedom" comes to mind.

Shallay: urban dictionary is fun, phrases have whole new meanings

Serah left the chat 

Sandra Dodd: There's a 14th century Letter of Patent that uses the word "really" two or three times in just about 100 words. One is that the King as "really ennobled" the named Lord whatever. And it could have meant given him property (where "real estate" and "Really!?" met), but clearly the word was old. 
Sandra Dodd: Shallay did you see a message I sent early? I don't see where messages show here. I tried, anyway.

Laura Z: Franko or they use the term without thinking what it really means because they heard it and it sounds cool.

Shallay: i get corrected when i say "like" because i Like say it a lot!

Sandra Dodd: "Freedom" is one, Frank, and "authenticity" is another.

Capn Franko: Yes, Laura. Alternate understanding or misunderstanding of a word which has a common, accepted usage but which they using to mean something different.
Capn Franko: I know how much you like "authenticity" (grin)

Laura Z: Authentic self.

Andrea: It seems that many are using a different definition of radical than from the root/source.

Sandra Dodd: It implies other people are fakes or clones.

Andrea: Using "extreme" instead.

Jill Parmer: I want to see my Authentic self and Non-Authentic self duel. 

Sandra Dodd: Some are, Andrea. When they try to defend that here or in a discussion I'm running, I can show them older references to older (more authentic) uses of the phrase. 

Andrea: and revolutionary
Andrea: 

Sandra Dodd: Yes. It's not helpful.

Laura Z: 

Sandra Dodd: From page 235: If Howard Gardner is right, maybe some people won't be able to do this any better than I could swim the Mississippi and play soccer on the other side. But just as some people value athletes, I value people's careful use of language.
Sandra Dodd: "This" was to think carefully and express oneself in one's own words.
Sandra Dodd: Writing helps! Practice helps.

Sylvia Woodman joined the chat 

Sandra Dodd: Accepting when people tweak or clarify or point at the rough parts of what you've written helps.

Sylvia Woodman: Hello!

Jill Parmer: I like this in the book. "Online discussions of natural learning and parenting give people a serious opportunity to practice communicating clearly and carefully." This idea when I was new to unschooling was so exciting to me. I don't feel I'm all that great with words and language. This made me so much more aware. I felt like I had new light to think about and analyze ideas. It made me look deeper what choices I wanted to make.

Sandra Dodd: Hi, Sylvia.
Sandra Dodd: I've seen lots of people become much better writers because when they were unclear others asked questions, or misunderstood.

Sylvia Woodman: Reading Always Learning and The Radical Unschooling Info page has helped me be a better, clearer writing and by extension better thinker.

Shallay: I like hearing what different people say about the same thing helps me to clarify its meaning - leads to me understanding.

Sylvia Woodman: *writer

Laura Z: Yes, Jill it's helped me tremendously as well. I'm still improving.

Andrea: True, Jill and Laura!

Marta Pires: Reading on the Always Learning list and on Radical Unschooling Info and seeing how much you valued clarity, I started to understand why. As I read more and more discussions, I started to be able to see why clarity was so important -- bottom line is, if people weren't clear, I got confused.  So I began doing it myself, too and I think it has helped me immensely.

Sandra Dodd: In school, they don't teach real-time writing. They don't teach REAL writing, generally speaking. Reports aren't real reports, they're practice, for someone who doesn't really want the information.

Andrea: Having local people ask me questions has helped me be more clear in writing. I started a facebook group for socializing, but since I "own" the group, I get to field questions about unschooling.

Sandra Dodd: The purpose of the discussions is not for writing practice, but they're a good place to get better by writing, for real, about current, immediate things that the audience can actually put into practice, or consider and reject, but real people will think about those words.

Laura Z: Plus they don't necessarily want you to think just regurgitate what they think is important .

Sandra Dodd: That's why I like to keep it on topic. Because when someone goes on and on and off, some others leave the discussion. And it wasn't worth me providing a platform for someone to... What was the term up above? Self-soothe, self-amuse?

Sylvia Woodman: The other advantage of writing is that they deepen my own understanding. I think Alex P. wrote something to that effect a couple of days ago.

Sandra Dodd: They who, Laura? People on Andrea's list or teachers in school?
Sandra Dodd: (Maybe both?)

Sylvia Woodman: Someone kept taking all the responses personally but actually the responses were more about the people responding after a while.

Laura Z: Sorry tricky writing on iPad. They teachers

Andrea: Very true, Sylvia. I get asked a lot of questions about our state law. I understand it a lot better now than I did five years ago.

Sandra Dodd: Jill quoted part of the next paragraph in the book. I have cut and paste capability. Here's the full paragraph.
Sandra Dodd: Online discussions of natural learning and parenting give people a serious opportunity to practice communicating clearly and carefully. For some people, an unschooling discussion will be their first "real writing"—the first time they've written real things for real people, rather than practice things for teachers. Those who stick with it or who have a native talent for it will find themselves getting direct and immediate feedback from other parents who have taken the ideas or examples or stories and used them to change their own real children's lives, and that is bigtime.

Jill Parmer: I just thought that even though my kids don't write many things down. They have really good analyzing abilities, that I think comes from talking through ideas. And that if and when they do write, I'll bet it'll be good. Waaaay better than me and the uninteresting writing I did in school.

Sandra Dodd: I saw that in my kids, Jill.
Sandra Dodd: Years and years ago Keith asked me why I let the kids argue with me.
Sandra Dodd: He would not have argued with his mom about anything. Just let her talk, and then sneak around.
Sandra Dodd: "Why do you let them argue?" he said.
Sandra Dodd: I told him I figured if they could win an argument with me, they could win an argument with anybody.

Marta Pires: 

Sandra Dodd: I was willing to let them try. I was also willing to spot them for age, and if a six year old makes a great point, there it is.
Sandra Dodd: I acknowledge that if he were ten years older he wouldn't have needed the handicap. 

Andrea: 

Sandra Dodd: I don't mind people arguing about unschooling, if they do it within the bounds of the discussion. Jumping to "you guys SUCK" isn't arguing.

AlexPolikowsky3 joined the chat 
AlexPolikowsky3: Hi back at home.

Sandra Dodd: When my kids were old enough to write for real, they.... wrote. For real.  They might have needed proofreading but lots of published authors to, too.

Andrea: I notified an author about a couple of errors in her book. She told me that it was the editor's job, not her responsibility.

AlexPolikowsky3: And some are famous and make money despite poor grammar or what is considered good writing technics.

Jill Parmer: The latest example here is Luke creating a new Dungeons and Dragons (role playing) character, and he asked for my help. As we've been working through ideas for his character, he said that I was such a great mom for doing this with him. By simply doing things that I think unschooling requires of me, he was SO appreciative. World of Warcraft helped me a lot. Glad I played all those years with my kids.

Sylvia Woodman: Wow Andrea! That sure says a lot about that author!

Marta Pires: So sweet, Jill.

Sandra Dodd: The first report Kirby ever wrote, he was 14 and it was an absolute REAL report. He wrote down how much Pokemon tournament inventory they had (forms, cards, pins, whatever all) and projected how long the supply of each would last based on the number of people who had entered the tournaments over the past dozen or so months, and upcoming factors that might cause more or fewer people to attend.
Sandra Dodd: The shop owners actually needed the information, and used it to order supplies.

Andrea: Yes, I was pretty shocked by the response.

Sandra Dodd: He played text-based games, and wrote with immediate effect (and artistry, sometimes).

Jill Parmer: Wow. So much more valuable than writing something a kid is uninterested in, in English class.

Sandra Dodd: Andrea, I'd think she would have said at least "oops, thanks, I'll send this to the publisher."

BeaMantovani: people write "you guys suck" because they still have their feelings hurt from school, where making a mistake was not rewarded.

AlexPolikowsky3: A friend just started school for a nursing career at over 40 and is having classes on how to do a medical report. Thing is the classes are more about other stuff. SHe is like : Just show me how to to a medical report!

Sandra Dodd: And his first "realtime" handwriting was in karate belt tests, sitting next to the sensei, scoring and commenting on karate students. His spelling and writing weren't great on those.

AlexPolikowsky3: I think so too Bea.

Sandra Dodd: But his ideas were clear. 
Sandra Dodd: Some authors are writing because someone offered them money to write a sort of thing by a certain date.

Marta Pires: And maybe because of this too, Bea: -=-Weeding out terminology we would prefer not to mean improves thinking. Proofreading before posting, to see what others will see, is sometimes very difficult. Discussing our children can come from a place of emotion, but if one can accept that others can see things she missed, the tangled threads of childhood hurts and fears can begin to be untangled so that parenting can come from thoughtful action rather than murky reaction.-=- (lifted from Sandra's clarity page)
BeaMantovani: Once Pam wrote about one of her daughters being excited to take a community college English class because her essays would be critiqued for free, and I think that's how it should be viewed too, writing on unschooling lists, but people with school baggage see it as being humiliated because they made a mistake and were told so in front of the whole class

Andrea: I love when the kids are figuring out how to spell/write. They use some awesome combinations to communicate.

AlexPolikowsky3: That is more important that perfect grammar

Jill Parmer: Yeah, I think so, Bea, and what is the way around that? When I write, I try to be succint (aware of people's time) and straight. And then I watch an emotional mess happen. 

Laura Z: I was thinking about report writing Alex and wondering if perhaps e issue isn't so much the report writing but lack of clarity in conveying information. Does it really take a semester to understand how to write a report, some never get it.

AlexPolikowsky3: Creative spelling! I love it Andrea. As in LOLcats
AlexPolikowsky3: Me too Jill but some take it as an "attack" when you are direct

Shallay: friends daughter writes stories - with practice you can read it because it is phonetic

Andrea: One of my girls uses "r" all the time for "are" and because of our dialect, she uses it for "our", too.

BeaMantovani: I think it's a personality thing maybe, too. I have a hard time being corrected, too. I feel embarrassed. I've learned to just let it sit and not reply. And think carefully before I post. (probably why I don't post so much, usually: still afraid of making a mistake.)

Shallay: the idea comes across, and its a nice story

AlexPolikowsky3: That is exactly what we were talking about Laura. She is homeschooling mom. Not unschooler but very very relaxed.

Andrea: Were you corrected/shamed a lot as a child Bea
Andrea: I was and I have a hard time being corrected sometimes. When I first started coming to chats, I worked hard to remember that Sandra's not my mother
Andrea: 

AlexPolikowsky3: Bea I do too. I do OK on the unschooling discussions list. My issue is that I get mad at myself. I kind of expect better from me so I get upset, not with others, but with myself

BeaMantovani: French school is very much a shame game. all the grades are always told in front of the whole class, and people get made fun of a lot. I was a good student, though, but I was sensitive (still am)

Andrea: And realizing that has been good for my marriage as well...remembering that my DH has positive intent and isn't angry with me.

Capn Franko: I'm a perfectionist. *I* rag myself when I;m in error and if someone else sees it first - ICK! FAILURE! ACK!

AlexPolikowsky3: Yep Frank. Not in everything but yeah I hear you.
AlexPolikowsky3: My son is like that. He is the perfectionist.

Shallay: marta - "be untangled so that parenting can come from thoughtful action rather than murky reaction" is my favorite part

Marta Pires: 

Shallay: same with my daughter - very nervous about failure

Capn Franko: I've been working on that. Still working on it.

Sandra Dodd: Some people react from a raw place, probably, in discussions like this because it IS writing that gets (sort of) critiqued—not about grammar or composition, but about whether it was helpful
Sandra Dodd: So again, it's a "real writing" think that school didn't really cover.
Sandra Dodd: In school when I was a kid the realtime writing was passing notes.
Sandra Dodd: Probably still, but now it's also texting.

Shallay: I had to clear my own thoughts too of past "failure is so wrong"

Sandra Dodd: Passing notes was honest and actual communication, whereas anwering the questions at the end of the chapter in a science or history textbook was just punitive busywork.
Sandra Dodd: It was probably practice for writing, too, but not for an audience that gave a damn.
Sandra Dodd: But here comes something like Always Learning.
Sandra Dodd: People ask questions that affect the lives of more than one person, and they get responses from more than one person (if they're lucky), and for free. Real people who know the topic.
Sandra Dodd: They can ask more questions, unlike with a magazine article or a book.

AlexPolikowsky3: The author of Horrible Stories said in an interview that kids nowadays do write. That all the messaging and texting is real writing. I can find the interview if you want it

Sandra Dodd: They can clarify. They can show their mettle. (What is that quote from Lord of the Rings? Sam to Faramir, maybe?)
Sandra Dodd: I've seen it, Alex. We all know. 

Shallay: yes alex i am interested

Sandra Dodd: Facebook and MySpace are real writing, too. MySpace was real html coding. Holly learned a TON of cool stuff making MySpace pages for her friends.

Andrea: I am constantly amazed by how my kids are doing real writing on Minecraft text chat while Skyping and actively playing the game. Sometimes they are writing Skype messages, too.

Sandra Dodd: But because people come in an emotional state to some of these activities, there can be oddity, too. Jill just got a nasty response from someone whose post she returned on Radical Unschooling Info.
Sandra Dodd: Someone sent some piece of art (a jpeg) with mushy quotes about kindness. I rejected it without writing to her, but Jill wrote and explained (and then deleted it though it was already gone).
Sandra Dodd: Jill didn't have to do that. I didn't have to create and maintain the facebook page. There was no "have to." It was voluntary activity for a clear purpose.
Sandra Dodd: What Jill wrote was sweet.

BeaMantovani: my daughters can't read or write yet, but I'm amazed at how well they can communicate via skype with their friends when they play minecraft. I think that's also practice for writing.

Shallay: andrea - my kids are learning to write small words on minecraft text chat
Shallay: its reading & writing

Andrea: My kids have learned a ton of reading and writing from Minecraft, but the idea that they're doing three things at once, all of them well, astounds me!

Jill Parmer: Sandra, are you looking for that quote from Lord of the Rings? I'd like to see it if it's not too hard to find.

Shallay: i am horrible at multi doing

Laura Z joined the chat

Sandra Dodd: Yes. And discussing things and explaining things leads to clearer writing when they're older, too. Not all of "writing" is pen on paper, or letters out of a printer or in a text box.
Sandra Dodd: Jill, I'll look in a bit.
Sandra Dodd: When people ask about writing, they're asking about LOTS of things.
Sandra Dodd: But clarity applies to thought, and speech, and perception, and writing.

AlexPolikowsky3: Andrea Gigi said to what you wrote:

Sandra Dodd: Writing, for us, often, because of this format, and yahoogroups, and facebook.

AlexPolikowsky3: "That is basically what I learned"

Jill Parmer: Yes that is astounding...all that communicating without being able to read and write very well. It's exciting and really made me wonder about people and teachers saying, well they have to know how to read and write to do....[whatever].

Sandra Dodd: But before the writing gets sent, the author has an opportunity to think, and even speak it aloud or ask an opinion of someone in the room, and to double-check perceptions, and to proofread writing.

Marta Pires: I remember when I first started reading on the Always Learning list (and later, on your facebook page, Sandra) that one of the things that kept me there was this group of people (later, I found out they were the list's and group's moderators) that would keep the discussions on topic and help clarify things that weren't clear for me yet. Thank you Sandra and all of the other moderators that do this so generously.

Sandra Dodd: Unfortunately, some people don't do any of that and they find themselves not being as clear as they might have been!
Sandra Dodd: The last part from the book (and then I'll look for the Faramir bit):J
Sandra Dodd: "So, clearly, we're all onto something touching on people's souls and psyches, on their beliefs and philosophies. You don't see that every day!"

Jill Parmer: Yes, no rush on the Lord of the Rings quote. I can get it later from you.

Sandra Dodd: They botch it in the movie. Movie quots are easier to find than book quotes these days.

Andrea: I think no one has told them that they can't or shouldn't do it, so they jump right in!
Andrea: (multi-tasking)

Shallay: lol that's why they do it so easily

Laura Z: Caitlyn has gotten pretty good at reading basic things and even though she can't write very well yet, she was still able to help a dad on minecraft the other day when she told him how to spell something.

Jill Parmer: I think that (multi tasking) is needed in those games, so a player who wants to play better gets proficient.

Andrea: That's awesome, Laura.

Jill Parmer: So cool, Laura.

Laura Z: a d even without writing, she's getting good at clarifying things at not even 7. She is going to be helping a friends who is brand new to Minecraft by explaining the basics via Skype and screensharing.

AlexPolikowsky3: Gigi is learning to read , she is actually reading but still does not know every word, because of Minecraft and Skyping friends.
AlexPolikowsky3: Yes Laura! And the Skyping friends help each other spell and all. It is sweet!

Andrea: i love hear ing the voices via Skype

Jill Parmer: I have a question about clarity, in words or intuition or a sense. Being not all that great at language and words, I might not be able to explain something well or succintly. But I have a sense about something. So I might make choices about something I can't explain well. Is clarity all about words?

Laura Z: Exactly Alex!

Andrea: Brooke also Alex

Shallay: jill - like feelings as well? Getting how you feel about something clear?

Jill Parmer: Luke has told the story of when reading clicked for him. He was in Stranglethorn Vale, at Grom'gol base camp, getting a quest from the troll head-hunter. I was in the kitchen for a moment and ready to come back and read for him. 

Sandra Dodd: There's clarity in musical tone. That's the example on that page http://sandradodd.com/clarity
Sandra Dodd: I think there's clarity of color and of light.
Sandra Dodd: Clarity in sports and music—when you really know what needs to happen next and can hear all around you and see all around you.

Jill Parmer: In my example my feelings are clear, it's something I like or don't like; trust or don't trust.

Sandra Dodd: "Flow" perhaps, comes with clarity.
Sandra Dodd: When you get the slow motion moment, like when a car is spinning on ice and your adrenaline makes your brain go so fast that it seems that the car is moving slowly?

Andrea: i think i know what you mean, jill

Sandra Dodd: Emotional clarity maybe.

Andrea: the baby is trying to type though..

Sandra Dodd: I meant to quote the response someone sent to Jill.

Shallay: jill - and it just clicked!? I've wondered about that. So clarity by just knowing something...

Sandra Dodd: Jill was clear, honest, helpful. I wanted to quote what was said about Faramir because I think Jill had an opportunity to show her quality, and so did the respondent.

Shallay: or when it comes together in a way you personally understand

Capn Franko: Heinlein's "grok" maybe?

Sandra Dodd: Jill thanked her for being understanding, or said she hoped she would understand or something, why that post wasn't going through. The person who had been wanting to post something about the value of kindness wrote to Jill: "Actually I don't understand at all Jill and quite frankly, this is bullshit. No one is selling anything. Sandra talks about Kindness all the time. Have at it with your rules. That isn't unschooling at all. "

AlexPolikowsky3: Sometimes I can't quite put something into words to answer a question on a discussion but then someone come and posts something and I go "YES". It brings even more understanding and clarity to the feeling I had.

Jill Parmer: Yes, more personal understanding. But for me to explain why I chose that direction, would be hard for me. Gosh I feel like I'm dishing out a bunch of spaghetti and want to get it all in straight lines for you.

Sandra Dodd: So I thought I would write and ask her to be nicer to moderators who are helping freely and kindly. When I got to her page (which I can't get to anymore because I'm blocked) the top post was a quote about actions having reactions.

Shallay: lol spaghetti lines

AlexPolikowsky3: well there you go Sandra. Do what I say but not what I do?

Sandra Dodd: When a person speaks, writes, takes another person a glass of water, gives someone a ride, they are either gaining or losing points/credit/regard.

Shallay: right because to translate into words everything inside....

Jill Parmer: I wrote "Thanks for understanding" in hopes that I could push the rejecting message toward a nicer place for that lady.

Sandra Dodd: Don't try to express everything that's inside.
Sandra Dodd: Too much spaghetti.
Sandra Dodd: Small, clear, to the point. Choices. Choose helpful over fluff. Choose clear over garbled.

Capn Franko: Fascinating topic but I gotta go make some lunch and help the neighbor kid with her algebra homeschooling course. An opportunity to sow some unschooling wisdom. (grin)

Sandra Dodd: The person who wrote that to Jill would have earned more points, would have felt better about herself, if she had waited, and thought, and maybe accepted that there was a reason.
Sandra Dodd: It would've been easier for Jill to click "approve" than to reject it and write a note. But for the benefit of some subset of 3300 members, she was careful, and took time to try to be clear.
Sandra Dodd: Jill wins. Jill wins in MY world, where I have defended her and I appreciate her. Jill and I lose in this other woman's world, because she's angry.
Sandra Dodd: So the next level is whether our universe is made better or worse by the absence of this person. Better, I think.
Sandra Dodd: Whether her world is made better by the absence of Radical Unschooing Info. Maybe better.
Sandra Dodd: Win/win, perhaps. 
Sandra Dodd: But I see the universe from my own vantage point. A person who would say "bullshit" to Jill AND the try to use me to make Jill feel wrong.... uncool. Unworthy. Suddenly I don't care what she thinks about me.
Sandra Dodd: So every time a person writes in public, they will gain or lose regard/points/credit/"fa​ce" in the world of anyone who notices and cares.
Sandra Dodd: There are people whose good opinion I care more about than others.
Sandra Dodd: And not to diss you guys, but it's relative. Holly just called me and really needs to talk, so I'm going to bail two minutes early. PLEASE feel free to hang out here and continue the discussion. I'll read what I missed later.

AlexPolikowsky3: Clarity wins , for me, over pretty fluffy words . You can say all this wonderfully sounding things and act like that woman above.
AlexPolikowsky3: Bye!

Sandra Dodd: Next week "If I Let Him" and other fear-based assumptions parents can learn to relax about.

AlexPolikowsky3: Say Hi to Holly!

Jill Parmer: The thing I found interesting in the interaction with that lady, was that maybe I was unenlightened or a dolt, and yet she did not extend "Kindness" to me. And that's the thing I find a lot with people being airy fairy, they write all this love and peace and kindness stuff, but that all goes out the window in an instant. And they seem to have not problem being rude and aggressive.

AlexPolikowsky3: If I let him he will sleep on my chest all day......says the person with the kitten on top of her.
AlexPolikowsky3: Exactly JIll!

Marta Pires: Yes Jill, I've seen that a lot too.

AlexPolikowsky3: I have seen that too.
AlexPolikowsky3: Jinks Marta!

Marta Pires: 

Andrea: I see it, also.

Shallay: or worse cruelty under the veil of kindness,
Shallay: i'd rather be cursed at

Laura Z: Me too shally

AlexPolikowsky3: Worse yet, cruelty towards their children and being offended by perceived attacks!

Jill Parmer: Wow that chat went fast.

Marta Pires: Great chat!

Shallay: oh the worst alex

AlexPolikowsky3: I missed most and I am so thankful for the clarity I get from you all.

Jill Parmer: perceived attacks? from the kid? or other parents calling them on it?

Marta Pires: Gotta go eat dinner! My husband just cooked an amazing pasta with pesto and cherry tomatoes  Yummy
Marta Pires: Bye!

AlexPolikowsky3: From the people discussing online JIll.
AlexPolikowsky3: Nice Marta!

Andrea: Enjoy!

Marta Pires: (I won't exit the chat room, because I'll come by later to copy the transcript for the blog)

AlexPolikowsky3: Parents calling them out on it.

Marta Pires: Thanks!

Jill Parmer: Yes, what is that. Low on the emotional intelligence, of Howard Gardner.

AlexPolikowsky3: Andrea is your Brooke that talks to Gigi?

Jill Parmer: Have a good evening and yummy dinner, Marta.

Andrea: Yes 

AlexPolikowsky3: Jill I think that people are not looking at their children. It is about them and not the kids

Jill Parmer: Right.

AlexPolikowsky3: They are cute playing!
AlexPolikowsky3: Gigi has some real nice friends!!!!!!!!!!

Jill Parmer: Gonna go now. Have a great day/evening folks.
Jill Parmer left the chat

Andrea: Yes, Alex! Most of the unschoolers I first met when we moved here are not the best examples. I am glad to have met some friends online.
Andrea: And I'm very happy that Skype exists! The kids are having so much fun lately.
Andrea: Chatting and meeting new friends

AlexPolikowsky3: YES
AlexPolikowsky3: where do you live ANdrea?

Andrea: NH

AlexPolikowsky3: That is right I think I knew that.
AlexPolikowsky3: Come to our Conference in Minnesota ! Gigi will love that.

Andrea: It is hard to keep everyone straight!

AlexPolikowsky3: I got to go feed kittens!!!!

Andrea: I wish we could, Alex. Someday!!

AlexPolikowsky3: 

Andrea: Have a great day everyone!

AlexPolikowsky3: Bye all!!!!

Andrea left the chat 2 days ago

AlexPolikowsky3: Would love to have you guys!

Shallay: bye

schuyler left this message
I just can't get up early enough, I guess.

Sylvia Woodman left the chat

Marta Pires was timed out
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