http://chatnotes-unschooling.blogspot.pt/2014/01/january-15-chat-on-etiquette-and.html
Sandra's note for today's chat:
"I've begun a page on etiquette to which I will add things, and if this discussion is a good one, the transcript can be linked there.
http://sandradodd.com/etiquette
My thoughts for topics within that topic are:
What's the difference in "etiquette," "manners" and "courtesy"?
What principles are at play?
What "manners" are important?
Time and place—what's changeable and how can we consider that?"
What's the difference in "etiquette," "manners" and "courtesy"?
What principles are at play?
What "manners" are important?
Time and place—what's changeable and how can we consider that?"
HAPPY NOTE: I think the blank boxes in the text used to be smiley faces, so if you see a big check box, "checkbox" a happy face, in your imagination. Thanks.
Marta Pires joined the chat
lisaj joined the chat
AlexPolikowsky3 joined the chat
AlexPolikowsky3: Hello@
Jill Parmer joined the chat
Marta Pires: Hi!
Laura joined the chat
lisaj: Hi
Laura: Hi
AlexPolikowsky3: Hi
lisaj: I haven't been in a chat room for over 10 yrs... This is kind of exciting!
Laura: I don't think much about etiquette.
Sandra Dodd joined the chat
Sandra Dodd: I'm glad you figured out how to get in, Lisa.
Sandra Dodd: Were you in old unschooling chats? Or some other kinds of chats.
lisaj: It was early college, and it was star wars fan fiction chats.
Sandra Dodd: Ideally, etiquette should come naturally, with a brush-up for special occasions.
Laura: Thank you notes.
lisaj: Ideally, but not always the case. I was not raised with any kind of attention to manners or courtesy or respect for others in public spaces.
Sara Vaz joined the chat
AlexPolikowsky3: I am terrible at thank you notes. I love getting them but I am terrible at sending. Not something most people do in Brazil. Just call and thank people.
lisaj: I'm pretty social and extroverted, so paying attention to what is acceptable and what isn't served me well... but it hasn't come naturally. And has involved a lot of, "man I wish someone would have explained that to me..." hence, I want to be that 'someone' for my kids.
Laura: I think calling and thanking people is good too, I just think the acknowledgement is important.
Sandra Dodd: Nowadays, a photo of the children playing with the item (or maybe a video or skype) is way cooler than a note by the book.
Sara Vaz: Hi everyone
lisaj: There are some people for whom not receiving a written thank you feels like neglect, even if you thank them in person at the time of receiving the gift.
Laura: Also recognizing that they are important to some people.
AlexPolikowsky3: I grew up where when you walk in someone's home you talk to everyone and say hi and greet them. Here in Minnesota people are weird. They barely acknowledge you sometimes. It is very very subtle and it can get lost if you don't pay attention. And then sometimes you get a huge hug! There is no telling.
Laura: Lisaj... My mother likes a note.
Sandra Dodd: Lisa, we usually go easy on the topic until we have ten people, so save your best stories for a bit. But I'm interested in knowing (either in twenty minutes or when we have ten people) why you think it was that way in your family of origin, and whether you think you have a good ability to read other people. But not yet. Think about it.
AlexPolikowsky3: Sandra that is what I do! A picture and a thank you! Usually on Facebook! HA!
lisaj: Thank you for telling me.
Laura: My mother's family is like that, it could be a year since they saw you and they don't say hello.
Laura: Just walk right past.
Sandra Dodd: The thing I screw up the most is not noticing when a house has shoes by the door, because people are going barefoot inside. I'm looking at people, and not checking for floor-rules-clues.
AlexPolikowsky3: It must be one of those days I cannot speak any language right!
AlexPolikowsky3: It maybe something that is not done a lot in New Mexico.
Laura: We leave our shoes by the door, but no one has to.
AlexPolikowsky3: People did not take shoes off in North Carolina, but here in Minnesota most do. :0
Capn Franko joined the chat
Laura: I just live with a house full of people who hate shoes, and take them off as quick as possible.
AlexPolikowsky3: I remember when I went to visit in-laws in Boston (I lived in North Carolina) and people there took their shoes off. I was like "wow we should do this in North Carolina with all that red clay."
AlexPolikowsky3: Laura, Gigi will take everything off! Unless we have visitors.
Laura: Yeah, mine don't mind clothes, just shoes.
lisaj: When my first was a crawling baby, it was important to me that no one wore shoes in the house. When my in laws came over for my birthday party and I asked that they please take off their shoes, everyone got rather incised (sp?) on the issue and were rather upset that I asked. I don't ask anymore (I don't care as much any more either, I love my vacuum), but I invite people to take off their shoes if they want. And I always as when I go to someone's house. But that's because it was important to me for that period of time. I don't know that I'd thought of it otherwise.
lisaj: That's another story... before there's ten people... 
I do have to walk away for a bit though.
I do have to walk away for a bit though.AlexPolikowsky3: Sandra, did you guys get to celebrate Marty's birthday yesterday?
AlexPolikowsky3: Oh she is gone!
heatherbooth joined the chat
Sandra Dodd: He had work and school, and just went out with Ashlee briefly.
Sandra Dodd: We had given him $300 to help with the expense of the trip to Las Vegas, which was their combined birthday/anniversary blow-out.
Sandra Dodd: I proposed giving him $200, and then kind of cringed thinking Keith was going to say no way, they'll drink, they'll gamble… I had planned to give him cash when I dropped them off at the airport. Keith didn't say anything for a couple of days, and then said "Tell Martin I put $300 in his account."
Sandra Dodd: So Keith was more generous than I had proposed. NICE!
Laura: Just getting some gluten free sun butter cookies out of the oven. They are really good!
Sandra Dodd: What's sun butter?
Laura: Sun flower seed butter, my son is allergic to peanuts.
Sandra Dodd: Oh.
Laura: They taste like peanut butter cookies.
Sandra Dodd: What's the difference in "etiquette," "manners" and "courtesy"? What principles are at play? What "manners" are important? Time and place—what's changeable and how can we consider that?"
Sandra Dodd: There's the topic.
Laura: Etiquette encompasses manners and courtesy.
Sandra Dodd: The terms overlap. And then there's the larger "protocol."
Sandra Dodd: People have "a manner"—a way of being—even if they don't know any formal "etiquette."
Laura: I guess I think more about being respectful of feelings than rules about those things.
Sandra Dodd: Partly this will be another English-language discussion, because some other cultures haven't saved so many words for so long. They have a word, not four or five words.
Marta Pires: In Portuguese, we have those three words too.
Sandra Dodd: Looking at the words, having nice manners is called "mannerly." Showing courtesy is being "courteous."
Sandra Dodd: Displaying a knowledge and practice of etiquette?
Sandra Dodd: That's called being "proper."
Sandra Dodd: Marta, what are your three terms?
Marta Pires: Etiqueta, Boas maneiras, Cortesia.
Robin B. joined the chat
Laura: My kids would call those people " fancy people" and hold their pinky out.
Marta Pires: And I believe they mean the same thing as the English ones.
lisaj: I think etiquette is knowing the rules for expected and acceptable behavior in a given social situation. Having good manners and being courteous are a part of having correct etiquette. But there might be more, like knowing what fork to use, or which hand to use for what, etc.
Marta Pires: I wrote "Boas maneiras", but you can hear people just say "Ter maneiras".
Sandra Dodd: Courtesy (and maybe courtesia) is from 500 years ago and more, when there were "courtiers" and people knew "courtly manners"—protocol about being in formal situations.
Sandra Dodd: "Curtsy" is related.
Sandra Dodd: It has to do with acknowledging relative rank—being respectful of those who outrank, and kind to those we outranked.
Sandra Dodd: Some parents press to far a "we're all equal" philosophy, with phrases like "he's not better than you" or "you're just as good as anybody" or "who does he think he is?" and that kind of talk.
Sandra Dodd: Even in a very egalitarian society, there are times when one person ranks higher than at other times.
Robin B.: Some people don't think there should be any kind of ranking. And yet, those with experience (good, solid, worthy experience) "outrank" folks new to a situation or group.
AlexPolikowsky3: I don't press we are all equal. I tell my kids to not use curse words when older people are around as they maybe more offended with it. So there is a difference.
Sandra Dodd: The governor of New Mexico is very important on a normal day in New Mexico, but if she went to a state funeral in some other country, she would be very UNimportant, even if she had been sent to represent the U.S.
Sandra Dodd: Things are relative.
Sandra Dodd: I'm important at a conference where I'm speaking, maybe. I'm UNimportant at a hotel where there's a big event in which I'm not involved at all.
lisaj: And interacting with grandparents who feel like they outrank the grandchildren (in terms of who the parent is courteous of first) can be challenging.
AlexPolikowsky3: It is like when they play in someone's server. They should follow the server's rules that the server owner decided on.
Sandra Dodd: They DO outrank grandchildren, especially in their own home.
Sandra Dodd: But in YOUR home, you get to assign rankings by the way you respond to people.
Laura: I ask my kids not to do certain things around older people, or other people and it has nothing to do with equality. It's just respecting their feelings and acknowledging that we are all different.
Sandra Dodd: And then they can decide whether to be offended or not. But the parent can soften being nice to the child even when the grandparents might rather she would do something different.
AlexPolikowsky3: It is courtesy and good manners.
Sandra Dodd: It's different different places, isn't it Lisa?
Willow joined the chat
Sandra Dodd: When my kids were little I would try to get us all out in a public place when grandparents were over, because we were living in their old house (where Marty's living now), and their memories of their own three kids and how they were expected to behave were all around them.
Laura: I'm probably lucky in that my kids grandparents have also respected their grand children's feelings.
Sandra Dodd: But at the children's museum, or a playground, or miniature golf, my kids could sparkle and shine.
Sandra Dodd: Because it wasn't my house, and it wasn't the grandmother's house. That helped LOTS.
AlexPolikowsky3: Like we were at a chapel this past Sunday for a relaxed recital and Gigi was playing. When we got there and Gigi was all excited (we were the first ones to arrive) I told her no running around there.
Sandra Dodd: -=-I ask my kids not to do certain things around older people, or other people and it has nothing to do with equality.-=-
Sandra Dodd: I disagree, Laura, that it has nothing to do with equality.
AlexPolikowsky3: Exactly Sandra! If we were at a park she could run around! Not in a chapel.
Sandra Dodd: Your children don't have "the right" to do whatever they want wherever they want.
Sandra Dodd: Some places they can have LOTS of rights, and some places, zero.
Laura: I agree they don't have the right to do certain things certain places.
Laura: But I don't think it has anything to do with equality.
Sandra Dodd: I visited my half brother in a juvenile lockup facility once. I've never been to visit someone in a serious penitentiary (yet, might someday, one never knows), but they tell you exactly where to stand and where to sit and what to touch, even at the juvenile lock-up.
Laura: If we are at grandmas, we follow grandmas rules, when she visits us, we try to make her comfortable.
Sandra Dodd: It has to do with you wanting them to show respect for older people, and that has to do with rank. If they didn't rank, their feelings might not matter so much (I think, unless you're thinking of something I'm not guessing at). Not to be rude, though, I suppose, could apply to homeless people and criminals as well as respectable old people not doing anything odd or illegal.
Sandra Dodd: Oh! Being a nice host and a polite guest.
Sandra Dodd: Those things are good to know.
Sandra Dodd: Think of this. Even IF somehow, all people in a situation were precisely equal, with no rank of age or experience, some would be nicer and more helpful and immediately gain rank.
Laurie joined the chat
Sandra Dodd: Are we short of colors today? Did our collection of red and orange go away?
Laura: I guess I feel lucky that my kids grandmas have also been nice hosts.
Laura: And nice guests.
Laura: And nice guests.
Sandra Dodd: That IS lucky, Laura.
AlexPolikowsky3: I am always black! For blacksheep!
Sandra Dodd: Bah.
Laurie: Is it okay to change the color? Sorry.
Robin B.: I'm usually red, but changed when there was a preponderance of red.
Sandra Dodd: Yeah, it's fine. We're just all in a small range today, and I wondered whether some colors had disappeared. Marta, could you remind me to mess with that sometime?
Sandra Dodd: I think we can add tons of colors, it just doesn't come to mind between chats.
Sandra Dodd: It's a pretty set, though. We could be window dressing.
Laurie: I can sign out and rejoin as red. Sorry Robin!
Capn Franko: I used to be red, but when they changed to offerings and the red was not a red I liked, I changed to this purple-ish.
Robin B.: Yeah. I like red-red.
lisaj: They do, in their home. But sometimes there are tricky moments. Like, my MIL likes to take portraits in front of her tree of family members in various groupings. My kids have a hard time sitting through this (so do a lot of the adults), and last year when my then 3 yr old started struggling and crying, I excused him and myself from the proceedings. I later was told that it was rude of me to do that, that my children need to be taught how to behave appropriately and respectfully, because the portraits are important and it was disrespectful of me to leave when they asked me to stay (why they wanted the *crying* three year old in the pictures I'm not sure- and I had to physically remove my struggling son from my grandfather-in-law's arms). So I guess, when a person who *does* outrank the grandkid then uses that as justification to be disrespectful of someone 'lower', I get confused about how to proceed.
AlexPolikowsky3: I do coach my kids to be polite and courteous. I have seen them be all by themselves and it is sweet. Not always but more and more. Even opening doors and picking up things people dropped, without me saying anything.
Robin B.: But "rose" will have to do.
Sandra Dodd: I have a friend who grew up without being coached about manners in her home. I don't know why. Her parents were well-educated Yankees. Perhaps they were what is now known as Aspergers, maybe.
Perhaps they were what is now known as Aspergers, maybe.Laurie: You don't know who has what color when you sign in.
Robin B.: Laurie, take orange-red.
lisaj: ("they do" = grandparents outrank grandkids)
Robin B.:
Laurie: Okay...will sign out and rejoin with orange-red.
Laurie:
Sandra Dodd: But when she grew up she over-compensated by learning all kinds of etiquette she didn't even need, and getting particular dishes and serving utensils and being the most "proper" person ever.
Sandra Dodd: [I've done chats where everything is just black, so it's fine either way; I was mostly curious.]
Laura: My dad used to say his parents only told him not to embarrass him, but other wise really didn't tell them how to behave.
Jill Parmer: She would be fun to have dinner with.
Sandra Dodd: [We had a chatroom for a while that showed the flag of the people's country on the sidebar list. That was fun.]
AlexPolikowsky3: I learned all the eating etiquette from a French Grandmother. Place setting had different utensils and glasses and all that. Servers too! It is cool but I use none of it.
Sandra Dodd: I learned a lot of formal etiquette in school.
Sandra Dodd: I learned a lot of formal etiquette in school.
Sandra Dodd: And from reading etiquette books for fun. I have a couple of older ones, early 20th century. Nowadays the internet can help if someone is invited to something and they're not sure what to wear or what's expected of them.
AlexPolikowsky3: I sometimes think I should pass some of it to my kids.
Bernadette joined the chat
Sandra Dodd: Fancy restaurants, with older kids, can be a place to pass on a thing or two.
Capn Franko: Old New Orleans society was fairly etiquette heavy. I learned to function in that world as well as the one where I could eat Cheetoes out of the bag with my orange fingers.
Sandra Dodd: Time and place!
AlexPolikowsky3: Yeah Sandra, that. Not now. But when they are older.
Laura: I showed my daughter how to set the table on Christmas, I had to look it up online because I couldn't remember side of the plate for forks.
Laura: My mom would have been mortified.
Bernadette: I did a 'hostess' badge in Guides which involved learning the correct way to lay a table, fold a napkin and wrap a gift.
Sandra Dodd: New Mexico has a LOT of food eaten by hand. Tons. Some from local tradition (taco, burrito), some from further-American tradition.
Laura: She did teach me those things, but I just put the utensils on the table now.
Capn Franko: For a while we had "formal" meals once a week with china, silver, crystal, etc. when the girls were still in single digits but closing in on 10. It was fun, but we let it fade away.
AlexPolikowsky3: It still does not make me a great host. I think of offering things and doing more "hosty" stuff after the fact. It does not come naturally to me.
Laura: I'm horrible with wrapping presents too, they look like a small child did it.
Capn Franko: Hosting is second nature for me. I learned it early and well.
Laura: I try to do nice things for guests, like make food they like or can eat, buy snacks I know they like, etc.
AlexPolikowsky3: Laura, I can wrap presents really good and in different ways. This Christmas my son was wrapping presents with me and we were laughing at how bad of a job we were doing (it was his first time). It was fun!
Laura: But I'm not so good with the formal part.
Laurie: Me too, Laura! I usually make an effort to wrap nicely, but it doesn't come out looking so beautiful the way my mom does it.
Sandra Dodd: Much of my early hosting was camping, where we furnished tents for visitors at camping events. So I would leave a little table with a candle lantern (we were doing medieval campouts) and kleenex (not medieval but damned useful) and some container of water and a cup.
Sandra Dodd: Now when I have guests at the house, I still leave them a bottle of water, box of kleenex and a flashlight by the bed.
Jill Parmer joined the chat
Sandra Dodd: And a power strip.
AlexPolikowsky3: Water and cup! Great idea for my guest room, Sandra!
Sandra Dodd: No etiquette book would say all that.
Sandra Dodd: I figure a flashlight can get them to the bathroom in a strange house, or they could look for something in their stuff without needing to find a light switch.
Bernadette: Especially not the power strip.
Laura: I guess it's just the attention to detail I miss out on.
Sandra Dodd: A reading lamp is good when possible, too. Pam Sorooshian's kids always read in bed when they were younger. Might still.
AlexPolikowsky3: I do have Kleenex and towels and blankets and offer things. But I like guests that ask for things that I may forget to offer. Some people do, some don't.
Laura: My mom sets up her guest room like a bed and breakfast.
Sandra Dodd: So those things are courtesy, not etiquette.
Laura: Water bottles, extra toothbrushes, etc.
AlexPolikowsky3: When Jihong was here I should have asked if they were warm enough at night. I asked the next morning and I guess they were cold. MY bad! I like cold and did not think of it. I felt so bad.
Sandra Dodd: With maps and a coffeemaker, Laura?
Laura: No maps, but I swear she puts local brochures in there.
Sandra Dodd: I need to remember to take maps to the conference in Albuquerque in December. Year before last we had them, and I forgot last year. If someone asks where something is, it's nice to be able to show them on a map, even if they have a GPS. But that conference is within walking distance of lots of things.
Laura: She has books about the history of the area.
Sandra Dodd: And it's in a parking lot that you can't turn left out of, so drawing a line that shows how to get to the road that gets to the place is good.
AlexPolikowsky3: I did not take in consideration they are used to keeping their furnace at over 75 at home. Here in Minnesota we keep it at around 69. (My normal is 65, but I had it at 69 because of guests)
Laura: I figure I'm doing good if I get some towels clean
Sandra Dodd: Alex, maybe a map for Minnesota ALLive.
Lightly copied, B&W.Sandra Dodd: OH, towels. Etiquette says give each guest a clean towel or two. I have long hair and need a towel just for my hair.
AlexPolikowsky3: That is a great idea!
AlexPolikowsky3: The map.
Laura: People keep their thermostats at 75?
Jill Parmer: Doing things that aren't the norm are so interesting to me, and usually humorous. When I visited France, a friend there took me to a house for meeting people and having food. I had just gotten off the train, after traveling all day, and I was starving. When the pizza came out, I had two pieces. Then something else came out, I was still hungry so I had one or two of whatever. Then salad was served. I was getting full. Then there were two more courses, and I was thinking, dang wish I had known, I wouldn't have stuffed myself in the beginning.
Sandra Dodd: When I have guests, I tell them the folded towels are clean, the hanging towels might be on second use, and they can either re-use their towels or just get a new one each time.
AlexPolikowsky3: I guess, Laura. They live in Texas and Hawaii most of the time I think!
Laura: That sounds horrible... So hot.
Capn Franko: Sounds good to me.
Sandra Dodd: Jill, when I was in India, I think I was going to bed before dinner, because there was a meal about 5:00 and I would eat it and then go in my room, hoping to give my host family some family time without me. But the real meal was later, it seems, at least some of the nights. And so without meaning to, I was being rude. Ooops.
Marta Pires: Ha, Jill!
AlexPolikowsky3: See! Some people like hot! Anything over 69 is too much unless it is heat from my insert! That I keep hot! Nice heat. Not like furnace.
Sandra Dodd: So not only is there "time and place" in your own house, but things change.
Sandra Dodd: Alex, what is your insert? What??
Laura: I'd have a nose bleed.
AlexPolikowsky3: Woodburning insert in the fireplace.
Sandra Dodd: Okay.
Jill Parmer: So, if you are going to be a host(ess), it would be good to know things about your guests.
Laura: It's snowing!
Sandra Dodd: Like what they don't know, if they're foreigners?
Capn Franko: I used to run hot and Ronnie ran cold. Now that I'm old and she's perimenopause, we've reversed.
AlexPolikowsky3: So having to think that people are used to different things.
Sandra Dodd: Same here, Frank.
Jill Parmer: I learned that the French people who I was with solve everything with food. They were putting food in my bag as I was leaving their house.
AlexPolikowsky3: Nice, Jill. No wonder my grandmother was all into giving us food to eat!
Sandra Dodd: We had Brit guests at a barbecue place. He was trying to eat beef ribs with a knife and fork. I let it go a bit thinking maybe his superior knife-and-fork skills would win out, but then I leaned over and said, "People pick them up with their hands." He was relieved. Probably felt like his mother would be disgusted, but at least he ate.
Jill Parmer: I was happy to find some young Danish guys, in my travels. They were hungry and I zipped open my bag and let them feast. It was fun to be so helpful. Thanks to the French mom!
Marta Pires: I tried to do that with Sandra, Jill (to know things about her), but then she would tell me "don't buy Dr. Pepper, I'll drink whatever there is to drink". Not letting me be courteous, hmpf.
Sandra Dodd: Jihong's mother climbed up into a mango tree with a ladder to get me fruit, with me saying please, no… but she insisted. Then they took it away from me at the airport.
AlexPolikowsky3: I can't help that my house smells like old basement (and I get it cleaned and bleached twice a year) cow manure (as we are in a Dairy Farm). I use those plug-ins when I have people over, but some people hate those (I don't blame them as they drive me crazy).
Sandra Dodd: Papaya, I don't know what, in Jihong's side yard in Maui.
Sandra Dodd: I wanted to tell the airport people "LOOK, a little chinese lady MADE me take this" but they wouldn't have cared.
Bernadette: In the UK etiquette says you can eat meat off bird bones with your fingers, but a lot of people when trying to be 'proper' use knives and forks.
Jill Parmer: I'm chuckling at that, Sandra! That's sad you didn't get to take it!
AlexPolikowsky3: Sandra likes Dr Pepper? I could have had it for her! I love Dr Pepper. I did make a mental note to have good black tea for her next time!
Marta Pires: Ah, *I* had black tea!!!
Sandra Dodd: And if you put a plug-in in my room, Alex, please not vanilla. Anything else is fine.
Sandra Dodd: Citrus. Sea breeze. Groovy.
Jill Parmer: I like dairy farm smell.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe I could get a dairy farm plug-in for when you visit, Jill!
AlexPolikowsky3: I don't like vanilla either! So you like plug-ins ? Jill hated them!
Sandra Dodd: I would like "new car smell."
Jill Parmer: I'll sleep on the couch with Bloxie!
Sandra Dodd: Back to the topic, then.
Sandra Dodd: Yeah, find out what the other person might need to know.
Laurie: I like fresh air from an open window.
AlexPolikowsky3: HA! Bloxie is the queen of the couch.
Sandra Dodd: Like how the shower turns on, if your shower is tricky.
Sandra Dodd: Or where some snack food is they can have if they're hungry at night.
Sandra Dodd: And whether dogs and cats are okay to let in or out.
Sandra Dodd: Those things aren't in etiquette books, but the principle of making a guest comfortable can help you figure out what to do!
Bernadette: Which remote works the TV.
Sandra Dodd: Yes.
Sandra Dodd: lisaJ, you were going to tell us about having grown up without learning manners. What level, and why? Will you tell us stories now, please?
AlexPolikowsky3: I asked my kids to be very quiet at night and they were pretty great. (Unless I was so tired I did not hear them)
You can stay up all night but other people are sleeping you need to respect that.Jill Parmer: I was thinking about when rules, etiquette, rankings change? Like when someone high ranking is a jerk or doesn't rule justly. I think then the lower ranking people wouldn't want to follow the rules.
Marta Pires: Learning about unschooling has made me try to be even more courteous, if that makes sense. I'm more aware of others and their needs.
Another unexpected benefit maybe? Jill Parmer: Or how the toilet works. 
Sandra Dodd: In the UK there are two flushers, on some toilets. I figuret it out.
Capn Franko: I *think* all the buttons on our toilet are self explanatory. Pretty much.
Sandra Dodd: One's for if you just peed.
Sandra Dodd: Small flush, large flush.
Jill Parmer: In Norway, I couldn't find the flusher handle.
Jill Parmer: I wasn't the only one.
Laura: My nephews and sister in law lived with us 6 months, they were a great example of kids who grew up with no instruction in anything, but haven't yet overcome it.
Laura: My nephews and sister in law lived with us 6 months, they were a great example of kids who grew up with no instruction in anything, but haven't yet overcome it.
Capn Franko: I think of etiquette as more the structured artificiality of it, while courtesy is more "natural."
Sandra Dodd: In India, a water bucket with a dipper in it next to a squat toilet is NOT self explanatory for a foreigner.
Laura: Or even a good example.
Sandra Dodd: I agree, Frank.
Sandra Dodd: Courtesy is based on principles.
Sandra Dodd: And manners are some combination of personality and principles and etiquette.
Sandra Dodd: Someone could follow etiquette mechanically and not "have nice manners."
Sandra Dodd: Because manners includes things like timing, in a conversation; gaze; posture.
Sandra Dodd: Tone of voice.
Sandra Dodd: Volume of voice.
Sandra Dodd: lisaj may be off with kids.
Sandra Dodd: Willow, are you Willow in Australia up very early? Or another Willow?
Sandra Dodd: Laura, how old were your nephews when they were staying with you?
Laura: They were 15 and 17.
Sandra Dodd: Holly had a boyfriend who bit his fork. The sound was painful to me.
Laurie: I think that when parents model manners and feel good in being that kind of person, kids often pick it up... the attitude as well as the manners.
Sandra Dodd: So they were old enough for you to coach them directly, if you wanted to? Were they setting a bad example for your kids?
Laura: They just did many things such as smoking in our house when asked not to, using all the hot water when showering, etc.
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes a bad example can be helpful.
Capn Franko: Ronnie also hates that so I sometimes do it purposefully. (Bad, Frank, bad!)
Willow: I'm in California.
Sandra Dodd: I agree, Laurie.
Sandra Dodd: Okay. So not so early, in California.
Laura: When they started directly setting a bad example we kicked them out.
Sandra Dodd: Really bad, Frank. Probably originally it was for the sake of silver forks.
Laura: I mean when the example became too much.
Laura: Their mom refused to ask them to stop and they ignored us, just time after time of not respecting our house.
AlexPolikowsky3: Sounds like it was a free for all/survival environment they came from Laura. If they had to struggle to get hot water and no one cared from one another that is what they learned.
Sandra Dodd: But high noises bother me a lot, not just any high noise, but old automatic door openers in the 70's had a supersonic painful drill-in-brain sound for me that my friends couldn't hear. The dentist… the ultrasonic cleaning machine is worse than a drill for me, and I need nitrous for a regular drill, because of the sound. Nail clippers—I have to get three rooms away or out of the building. And biting a fork does that noise.
Laura: I do think the environment they came from was very bad, I don't think their needs had been met, nor had they been nurtured or cared for.
Sandra Dodd: Wow, Laura. Would it be too much to ask for examples? The chats are saved, so if you don't want to give details, I would understand.
Capn Franko: Yep, that's Ronnie.
Jill Parmer: Has that changed over time, Sandra? Whistling used to not bother me, now it does.
Sandra Dodd: Poor Ronnie.
Laura: They destroyed my sons room to the point that when they left we had to pull up the carpet.
Sandra Dodd: No, Jill. Same for me, but the electric door openers stopped having that sound.
AlexPolikowsky3: Why were they there long enough to destroy a room?
Sandra Dodd: Food? Spills?
Sandra Dodd: They worked fast, Alex. They were there six months.
Laura: Yes, food mostly, but they were also smoking in there.
Jill Parmer: Six months doesn't sound like working fast.
Capn Franko: I'd'a kicked'em out the first time they ignored my exhortation to not smoke in the house. That's a biggie for me.
Laura: It was just bad, I felt bad for them, thought maybe an example of a good family might help.
Laura: Honestly, I think they followed the not smoking till the winter set in and they got lazy.
AlexPolikowsky3: I had a trainee from Japan for a year. He was 21 when he came. We loved that kid. He was messy but would clean up really good if I asked. He also helped in the garden because he liked it, so that was super nice. He did not have the best ettiquete but he was such a nice guy and one could see if he did not do better it was because he did not know better.
AlexPolikowsky3: It was a joy having him.
AlexPolikowsky3: Then we had a trainee. Much older and super polite and courteous and good manners. HE DROVE us crazy!
Laura: It was weird too, in that as long as they talked to us, came out and interacted with us I was willing to put up with a lot, but then they got their own computer.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe a few years down the line one of them will let you know that your family's example did help.
Laura: And it was put in the room they were using, so they had no need for us and they stopped speaking to anyone.
lisaj: Yes, I was off with kids. Little one needed help to sleep and bigger one needed to share some snail and frog stickers. I can't go back and read because it keeps jumping back to the bottom when someone writes something. I will go back and reread later. I saw what you said though, and it is already helping me sort things out in my head.
I can't go back and read because it keeps jumping back to the bottom when someone writes something. I will go back and reread later. I saw what you said though, and it is already helping me sort things out in my head.Laura: And sneaking around and at that point the the ignoring our things like not smoking in the house got worse.
Sandra Dodd: Lisa, to read, click on "Save/Print" on the lefthand side. You don't need to save or print.
Sandra Dodd: But it will give you a stationary screen. And if there's something older in the chat you want to see, at the top it will say page 2/3 (or something) and you can change that first number to another number and refresh the page.
Sandra Dodd: Or you could come back and read after we're all done and it's not so jumpy.
lisaj: About tone of voice and principles-- the two that jumped out at me. -- oh, great! Thanks.
Sandra Dodd: What bothers me about other people's manners is not holding a spoon or a fork right, and chewing with his mouth open.
Sandra Dodd: I can overlook most other things.
Laurie: Oh that is good to know. (about how to read without it being jumpy)
Sandra Dodd: Those, though… eeek.
Jill Parmer: You could use "Review Mode" so the page isn't jumpy.
Sandra Dodd: I had an odd friend, and adult my age, who was fine about everything but drinking. When he drank a glass of something, he did it all at once with his eyes gigantically big.
Sandra Dodd: For some reason, he had not learned as a child, to take some liquid in, and then swallow it gracefully, and wait a while.
Sandra Dodd: For some reason, he had not learned as a child, to take some liquid in, and then swallow it gracefully, and wait a while.
AlexPolikowsky3: Why?
Sandra Dodd: I have no idea.
lisaj: Ok got it, saw your question
Sandra Dodd: He said he didn't know how to drink it any other way.
Laurie: Thanks Jill.
Laurie:
Sandra Dodd: I wanted to say "Don't be an idiot," but it was easier for me to avoid having meals with him.
AlexPolikowsky3: Did he ever try?
Sandra Dodd: I don't know.
AlexPolikowsky3: Ugh!
lisaj: Manners and politeness and considerateness and respect for others don't come naturally to me. My mom was often rude to people in public, and to my friends and myself, and I remember her being really rude when I introduced her to my boyfriend in high school's mom... I was mortified.
Laura: Slirping kind of gets me.
AlexPolikowsky3: Other people eating still grosses out my son a lot so he likes to eat alone. Better now then a couple years ago. Much better.
heatherbooth: Austin and I had the flu last week. We ended up canceling some stuff either because we were running fever or because we were worried about getting people sick. I did lots of research online and calling doctors before making one decision to cancel because I did not want to get anyone else sick. What I learned was we were still contagious, so I canceled. Through all this I learned different people have different ideas about what is OK and what is not OK when it comes to being sick around people.
Jill Parmer: Addi and I have a joke with each other... Hot drinks taste better when slurped!
Sandra Dodd: And oddly he was a very rules-y guy otherwise. I was running a singing group, and invited him to sing with us for a Christmas performance. He had a great bass voice, and could read music! But the very first practice, he wanted me to insist that everyone pronounce "mary" as "MAYry" and started to tell me why. I said I know the argument, and it's not opera, and we're not being recorded, and some of these people have never sung before, and we're doing medieval and Renaissance stuff, not German artsong.
Sandra Dodd: I asked him to let that slide, and see if he didn't have fun anyway. But no, if I didn't insist on uber-formal pronunciations of words per 19th century voice teachers, he was unwilling to sing traditional English music with a group I was running.
Robin B.: Did you kick him out?
AlexPolikowsky3: Good question!
Sandra Dodd: He quit.
Sandra Dodd: I was sad.
Sandra Dodd: And irritated.
Jill Parmer: So, you outranked him, and he was trying to insist?
Jill Parmer: Why sad?
Sandra Dodd: And he was irritated, and had more free time than if he had stayed.
Sandra Dodd: Yes, Jill.
AlexPolikowsky3: Very peculiar fellow, one may say.
Sandra Dodd: We needed a bass.
Jill Parmer: If that bothered him so much, as to leave, he should go.
lisaj: She grew up with a lot of neglect and no siblings, and moved out by age 16. And I have a little 'Bowser' roaring at me from his 'cage' so I will step away again.
Jill Parmer: Oh, oops.
Robin B.: The longer I live, the more peculiar people seem, Alex. And maybe that's normal.
Laura: My middle son gets put off by others eating sometimes too. He never told me that but I've finally figured it out. He hates for people to touch food. We were at some cousins and every time I'd make something he wanted one of the little cousins would come touch them all. He would just sulk off. When I finally figured out what was happening I guarded the next thing!
Sandra Dodd: So Lisa's mom and Laura's nephews might (maybe perhaps?) have used bad manners as a way to finally exert some power.
Sandra Dodd: My mom was neglected and abused as a kid.
Sandra Dodd: And she was made to take care of two younger brothers for years and years.
AlexPolikowsky3: Robin, the longer I live the more peculiar I become!
Sandra Dodd: She was rude sometimes and when she was self-conscious about not knowing proper etiquette in a situation, would say that it was stupid anyway, and go get drunk.
Robin B.: There's that, Alex! And the older I get, the crankier I'm becoming, too.
Capn Franko: I think my strangeness distills over time.
Laurie: Being aware that other people might have certain different preferences in a way to show kindness too. It's kind to help people feel comfortable if possible.
Robin B.: Sandra, that's so sad.
Laurie: Kids, family or guests.
Robin B.: Yes, Laurie.
Sandra Dodd: Yes. I'll try to remember not to casually touch any food at Laura's house.
Laura: I think also, they had never had anyone respect them, they didn't even know how to acknowledge when you did something for them.
AlexPolikowsky3: Some people think it is all stupid anyway! I don't think those people will unschool well.
Laurie: I have been to parties or potlucks where little kids (who don't know better) do finger the food. It made me not want to touch it. Esp if they had runny noses.
Laura: Well, you can touch it, Ben just won't eat it!
Sandra Dodd: The division between kids/teens and adults that school creates can cause teens not to be able to acknowledge adults except to hear the directions and then figure out ways to indicate that they have disregarded them.
Sandra Dodd: It's a kind of logical discourtesy. It might be the only communication they can have that isn't immediately punished. They can't talk back. They will be prevented by other kids from "sucking up." So what's left is not to communicate directly with adults.
Sandra Dodd: About being sick and still socializing, Heather, when we were in a babysitting co-op some families really did NOT want germs in their homes, some were neutral and some said "bring it on over" (especially if "it" was chicken pox).
Robin B.: I try to be extra kind to my friends' kids, if they have that kind of relationship.
Sara Vaz: My son Gabriel, 6 yo, gets upset when I tell him to eat with his mouth closed or not to talk with his mouth full. He tells me it is his way of doing things. 
Sandra Dodd: We had a chicken pox co-op subset, of families who wanted the kids to get it and get it over with, and of families that had already had it. Some families feared it and stayed away for a few months.
Laura: This sil, whose kids I've been speaking of, is ALWAYS telling me my kids should go to school cause they will be social outcasts.
Robin B.: Sara, how often do you do that?
Sandra Dodd: Sara, maybe you could start with when you have company and ask him not to do that when [whoever it is] is over.
Sandra Dodd: As a way to take a step toward...
Laura: Makes me smile.
Robin B.: And give him information, too.
Sandra Dodd: Or if he wants to go out to eat you could say "Will you eat with your mouth closed?" and if he says yes, hold him to it.
Sandra Dodd: And if he says no, say "I'll get it and bring it back here, then."
Sandra Dodd: Maybe.
Sandra Dodd: Did you see the recent discussion on facebook about that?
Sandra Dodd: A kid whose dad wanted him to eat with his mouth closed? It was a good one.
Robin B.: Elaborating on "how often" I meant sometimes kids will tune you out if your "help" turns into "nagging."
Sara Vaz: Not too often. I give him food to his mouth, he refuses to eat himself (healing from terrible times at the table before deschooling), and refuses to join at the table also.
Laura: My daughter's voice is often loud, encouraging her to lower her voice is tricky.
AlexPolikowsky3: I would show him why people don't want to see other people's food being chewed and that it grosses people out.
lisaj: Bad manners to exert power.... I'm thinking about that. Disrespect or disregard as a way to gain power... I think this is something I see in my MIL too, and especially one of my BIL... They talk a lot about respect and courtesy and appropriate or classy behavior, but don't often display it.
Sara Vaz: Yes, Sandra, I saw the discussion on facebook. Very good.
Robin B.: Laura, mine, too. We started using a hand signal when she was younger, like a radio knob - turn down the volume - and it's like a little trigger for her now.
Robin B.: Trigger in a good way.
AlexPolikowsky3: So Sara, bad manners to feel pwerful like Lisa said? Did you force feed him before?
Robin B.: It's subtle and not obvious to others like, "Be quieter" might be.
Laura: I'll try that, my sister was the same way growing up and now it hurts her feelings if anything is said about it (because she is still loud), so I know that wasn't handled well.
lisaj: What I'm learning is that having a trusting relationship with my kids has to be in place before I can expect them to trust me as their coach on manners and respect for others.
Laurie: I like that idea too. The hand signals for turning down your volume.
AlexPolikowsky3: I use hand gestures and quick looks to send a message to my kids. I think it workds great. They don't feel put on the spot and I get to remind them of something.
Sandra Dodd: We're nearly out of time.
Sandra Dodd: Does anyone have a particular question or situation, or something we've left out?
Sara Vaz: Before we made him eat at the table, we controlled what he ate, we controlled everything. It was horrible before, mealtimes.
Marta Pires: Conchinha doesn't like to sit at the table either. My mom worries that she'll never sit at a table to eat... What I've tried to do is to take her to situations that require sitting at the table less frequently (and if possible, to a restaurant, when we do need to go).
Laurie: We used to use sign language for when one of the kids needed to go to the bathroom but wanted to let us know discreetly. That still works good sometimes.
Sara Vaz: Yes, Marta, same here, with grandparents!
AlexPolikowsky3: How long has it been since you started changing things Sara?
Robin B.: It's often because the grandparents were made to sit at the table as children, so therefore they think that's how it's accomplished (the willingness, the ability).
Sara Vaz: 8 months, Alex.
Sandra Dodd: In case anyone here is unfamiliar with the food pages on my blog, there might be ideas that will help. This one's about dinner: http://sandradodd.com/eating/dinner
Sandra Dodd: A bit about sitting together at the table, or not.
Sandra Dodd: A lot of etiquette has to do with food, meal times, visiting for meals.
Robin B.: Which can vary by country, region, city, community!
Capn Franko: Gotta go polish the silver so I can bite it. (grin) Maybe I'll just use the flatware. See y'all later.
Robin B.: Bye, Frank.
lisaj: I went from not thinking my kids needed to have any respect for other people, to realizing, oh wait they do- being overly anxious and aware and controlling about them being respectful of others... like the stretched rubber band bouncing back and forth someone mentioned somewhere on Sandra's page
Now I'm trying to find balance by respecting and being courteous of my kids, and trusting that there are mindful ways of also being respectful of others at the same time. Like I was explianing above, it doesn't come intuitively for me, and sometimes, as I was learning acceptable behavior to interact with friends etc, it was "do whatever they want to make them happy" - instead of actually having respect for them and myself. Tricky stuff for me. That's why I wanted to join this chat, it's what I've really been mulling over lately.Sandra Dodd: Lisa, looking at it as courtesy rather than "respect" might help. "Respect" can be loaded with all kinds of baggage and re-action.
lisaj: Yes
Sandra Dodd: Consideration might be good. Being considerate.
Laurie: or consideration...
lisaj: Being thoughtful of someone's feelings.
Robin B.: Sara, it might take longer than 8 months for your son to relax and understand that you're not going to change everything back to the way it was.
lisaj: And consideration can be contagious. Sometimes. My MIL is a little more considerate, sometimes, now that I've really been working on being considerate of her.
Robin B.: Go slow. And if you made wholesale changes, all at once, he might be confused and upset.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe just before you visit somewhere or have guests, you could have a little discussion. Not where you give all the directions, but maybe ask them to help you remember what's known about the other person, or the situation.
Sara Vaz: Yes, Robin, I think it will.
Sandra Dodd: Have a planning session with reminders. Like "Vegetarians, so let's not talk about jerkey or hunting." or "Fundamentalists, so no bad words, and no dinosaurs."
Robin B.:
Marta Pires:
Sandra Dodd: Holly had a friend whose family bannished all talk of Harry Potter. Holly always remembered.
AlexPolikowsky3: Ha!
AlexPolikowsky3: No Harry Potter?
Sandra Dodd: And so she wouldn't take her Harry Potter cards, or talk about the tournaments she was in.
Sara Vaz: Thanks, Sandra.
lisaj: (I have a Harry Potter Uno game. It's cool)
AlexPolikowsky3: Yeah, I have said to my son not to mention some games around certain people or situtation!
Sandra Dodd: Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch. About etiquette, too.
Sandra Dodd: There's no reason to change everything all at once, unless it's fork biting. Frank should stop it.
Laurie: I've reminded my kids to say "Oh my gosh" instead of "Oh my God" if we are around certain families.
lisaj: Josh (4) has been really good with, "Remember, Grandma doesn't like yelling in her house, and she doesn't like when people say stupid, or play too rough" That's had good results lately.
AlexPolikowsky3: I used to say Oh My God a lot. I just recently started to use Oh my gosh and Dang it!
Sara Vaz:
Sandra Dodd: I say "holy crap" more than one should.
Marta Pires:
lisaj: Me too Alex! Here in Nor Cal, also, "hecka" instead of "hella."
Sara Vaz: That precious advice, Sandra!
Sandra Dodd: And I have said, upon special occasions, fuck fuckety fuck fuck, but Holly doesn't like it.
lisaj: And Josh has been saying "Holy crap!" a ton too. hahaha
AlexPolikowsky3: I like it!
Robin B.: Special occasion swearing!
Jill Parmer: Holy crapaloni
Bernadette: My son and his friends have decided they mustn't swear when younger children or girls are around. I don't quite know why necause David doesn't swear anyway, but he'll remind his friends if Emily comes into the room and they all agree.
Sandra Dodd: Yes. One never knows when such a need might arise suddenly.
AlexPolikowsky3: I have been playing a game lately and saying fuckers a lot. In a room with my son. I hope I don't slip and say it at like Girls Scouts meeting.
lisaj: A linguistics professor in college used "congratu-fucking-lations" as an example of one word embedded in another
Sandra Dodd: There is a time and a place to say holy crap, and lots of places (girl scout meetings) where it is not a good thing at all.
Sandra Dodd: And there's that one word that's most likely to BE imbedded.
Robin B.: A friend of Senna's says "fuck" too much for Ross's liking when she comes to stay, so I remind her and she does fine. I bought her some socks for Christmas with "x%$#@*" on them!
Robin B.: She can wave her legs around!
AlexPolikowsky3: Cool Robin!
Sandra Dodd: Etiquette says NEVER say those words. Courtesy says to pay attention to where and when.
AlexPolikowsky3: Gigi swears way more than my son Daniel.
Marta Pires: So cool Robin!
Jill Parmer: Thank you for the chat. See ya all next week.
Jill Parmer left the chat
Sandra Dodd: Thanks for being here, folks!
Robin B.: Thanks, Sandra.
Sandra Dodd: Oh… Jill left.
AlexPolikowsky3: Going to go play a little more
Sandra Dodd: Anyone else want to pick a topic for next week?
lisaj: YES on holy crap- my in laws came to visit on sunday, so before they got here, I had a talk with Josh, "Don't say holy crap while they are here."
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Marta Pires: What about socialization?
Marta Pires: Weren't thinking about it for the chat, I mean?
Sandra Dodd: Okay.
Sandra Dodd: Socialization.
lisaj: I like that distinction between etiquette and courtesy.
Sandra Dodd: Other ideas for other coming weeks? I'll miss three weeks in March for being in Australia, maybe in an airplane or it being 5:30 a.m.
lisaj: And thank you for this! Chatting with some of my favorite adult-hood heroes.... Such a privilege and a pleasure.
Such a privilege and a pleasure.Sandra Dodd: Instead of "never" or "always," maybe consider "when? where? why?"
Sandra Dodd: What else would you like to chat about another time, Lisa.
Robin B.: I'll think, Sandra. Nothing's coming to mind right now.
lisaj: Hmm. Siblings. Balancing needs with very young kids. Those are most on my mind right now.
Marta Pires: I think Sara will like that topic too!
Sara Vaz: You bet
Marta!Sandra Dodd: Should we do siblings next time and socialization in two weeks?
lisaj: Sure.
lisaj: Says me.
Sara Vaz: Yes!
Laurie: Sounds good.
Marta Pires: Sure!
Sandra Dodd: Okay.
Sandra Dodd: Lisa, to leave the room in the fancy, pinky-up way, type this /bye but in a line all on its own and our robot butler will announce your departure.
Sandra Dodd: watch:
Sandra Dodd left the chat
Bernadette: Hopefully see you next week. Bye.
lisaj: Bye and thank you everyone.
lisaj left the chat
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Sara Vaz: Thanks everyone!
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