The idea of "success"

Not really edited yet, but a little bit.

Success! (Success?) December 3
Let's talk about the idea of "success," in life. http://sandradodd.com/success

We talked about how to think about whether we were doing enough, a few weeks ago. The transcript is here: http://chattranscripts.blogspot.com/2014...

But this week, let's talk about how we might rethink "success" when looking at a child's progress, a teen's "readiness" or an adult's activities.

Sandra Dodd: Good morning!

Virginia Warren: God morning

Robin B.: Hello!

Celeste: morning 

Virginia Warren: Oops

Sandra Dodd: I'm having a medieval breakfast. Toast, boiled eggs, apple, cheese, milk. Not a vegan breakfast. Not a fancy breakfast.

Sandra Dodd: "God" and "good" are related words, long ago. Pre-medieval. 

Sandra Dodd: In "Good day," good means good.

Sandra Dodd: In "good bye," god means god.

Sandra Dodd: It's a contraction of god be with ye

Virginia Warren: I was thinking the same, wondering about "morning"

Robin B.: Mmm. Breakfast sounds good. I've only made it to coffee, so far.

Virginia Warren: I'm having coffee with you.

Virginia Warren: *clink*

Serah: Your breakfast does sound good!

Sandra Dodd: Good morning is just good morning. 

Sandra Dodd: Sometimes I look at something—a hat, or food, or a piece of furniture—and think that a time traveller wouldn't have to ask what it was or how to use it.

Virginia Warren: 

Sandra Dodd: People my kids' age probably think that the plastic sleeves in a wallet are for credit cards, but they were for photos, when they were invented.

Sandra Dodd: When credit cards came along, they made them the size of wallet-photos, because they would fit in the sleeves.

Virginia Warren: Do you think of a specific person?

Sandra Dodd: Not a specific time traveller. Random anybody who's never been here. Might show up hungry, or cold, or needing to sit a while. 

Serah: I just read a book like that, where the people from the future were trying to piece together the past (our present) and figure out what things were.

Sandra Dodd: Was it "Motel of the Mysteries"? 

Virginia Warren: Patton Oswald did a bit about how far back he would need to go to amaze his past self

Virginia Warren: And it kept shrinking

Robin B.: I was thinking of the many things of the past that we've probably misinterpreted. And how the things of our present might be described by anthropologists.

Sandra Dodd: It wouldn't surprise me if some future novelist or movie-maker would look back at some 20th century period piece and say "They didn't have credit cards yet, so the wallets shouldn't have those sleeves. Wrong! 

Serah: No, I, it was People of Sparks a young peoples book

Robin B.: And some things seem to be constant through millenia. Plates or bowls. Cups.

Sandra Dodd: There is a line drawing of a medieval cup, in a book, and it is EXACTLY like the plastic cups at the cafeteria at the university of New Mexico, where I worked in the dining hall for a year or two.

AlexPolikowsky1: Hello Sorry I just got up half an hour ago! But I needed to go take care of my 10 kittens and a sick cat  Sitting with my breakfast now!

Sandra Dodd: Maybe I should go back to sleep. You all might be in danger.

Sandra Dodd: I called Siri a bitch.

Sandra Dodd: Not with the speaker on, behind her back.

Misa: Well, did she do something that made you feel that way?

Sandra Dodd: She thinks she owns my phone, and I'm still cranky because all through northern Arizona, and most of Vermont, she was all "I'm sorry, I can't answer any questions now," and she didn't sound at all sorry.

AlexPolikowsky1: Siri would have been offended. She can be pretty snippy!

AlexPolikowsky1: HA! LOL

Misa: Serves her right, then. Totally unhelpful.

Sandra Dodd: She isn't smart enough to set two timers. And I wasn't smart enough to use the microwave's timer, or to just look at the clock. So it was a stand-off. The tea timer went off, but the eggs... she just stopped the tea timer and thought somehow that would help.

AlexPolikowsky1: So Sandra that breakfast you described is a typical Medieval one?

Sandra Dodd: I don't know if "typical." Depends how much money someone had and what season it was. It might be a big breakfast. I considered porridge (oatmeal) but it would've taken too long.  It's a feasible collection of medieval breakfast items. 

AlexPolikowsky1: Daniel would like that. That is why I ask. If I make it for him.

Sandra Dodd: Or any recent centuries in NW Europe or north America. In the novel Heidi, there are meals of cheese and bread, or cheese and apple, I think.

Virginia Warren: I read an article recently about a German company having to do a recall on a car navigation system because some male customers did not want to take directions from a female voice

AlexPolikowsky1: what Virginia???

AlexPolikowsky1: I am so glad my husband is not sexist at all! He has no problem with women in general.

Virginia Warren: Sorry, we were talking about Siri when I typed that

AlexPolikowsky1: Conversations fluctuate back and forth in a chat like this Virginia 

Sandra Dodd: Austria, early 20th century, fiction.   [editorial note:  1880, that novel]

AlexPolikowsky1: We do a lot of snacks of cheese and apple here

AlexPolikowsky1: It is a great combination and yes I loved Heidi the book and the movies.

Robin B.: Oh, I salivate at the raclette in Heidi. The cheese and bread over the fire!

Virginia Warren: Mmm

AlexPolikowsky1: Raclette!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have not had one here in the US. Common in the winters in Brazil for the upper middle class to do all the European traditions and food

Sandra Dodd: Alex, when Daniel's going to an event, you could wrap up some jerkey (or ham, maybe, or cold beef, like a thin breakfast steak), and some cheese, and nuts, and that would be a great period lunch. Wrap it up in a cloth napkin. Put it in a pouch.

Robin B.: Now I need to eat!

AlexPolikowsky1: Awesome Sandra! He will love that! Thank you!

Sandra Dodd: Add bread, for Daniel. A roll, or a tortilla. 

AlexPolikowsky1: I am having a turkey Sandwich Robin!

Sandra Dodd: I went to google-image raclette, but they're just selling electric equipment to "do it" whatever it is. I'll look later. 

AlexPolikowsky1: The Archery deal now he is saying he does not want a recurved bow but a long bow. We will see. There is Archery this Saturday with the SCA .

AlexPolikowsky1: Yes you need a racletter maker. It is potato and cheese basically

Sandra Dodd: So! The topic is how to see "success" and to think about whether you're doing well with unschooling (a successful unschooling family?) or how to consider what it will take for you to feel your child is "a success."

Misa: This chat is around lunchtime and there's almost always talk about food. I'm always hungry after!

Sandra Dodd: Frank used to come and tell us what he was eating. He hasn't been here for a while, I just noticed.

Robin B.: His laptop crashed, so he hasn't been online for awhile.

Robin B.: Just got fixed, so maybe he'll come. 

Sandra Dodd: Oh. Thanks, Robin.

Misa: I missed the food chat, though. 

Robin B.: I messaged him, so maybe he'll come over.

Sandra Dodd: When I think of success, this story plays in my mind: My best friend's parents, when I was a kid, were VERY successful, impressive, wealthy, high-class. He was a doctor, and her mom was an artist who sold things, got commissions, did wild fun things at their house—a 12-foot-high papier-mache-on-chicken-​wire Easter Bunny in their circle drive, one Easter, at their stunning adobe house with the heated brick floors. Their Christmas tree was in New Mexico Magazine one year.

Sandra Dodd: They owned a vacation home, and when the mom and kids (who were 13 and 11 or so that day) came home early one day they found the dad on the couch with a nurse, doing something the kids should hever have seen. Divorce. Re-marriage for both. Not great. The dad ended up in prison for giving methadone to heroin addicts in a less than upfront way.

Sandra Dodd: The he was out of prison, and Holly and I went to his funeral, when she was nine.

Sandra Dodd: Success or not a success?

Sandra Dodd: He was a big Ayn Rand fan. Had all her speeches, on vinyl.

AlexPolikowsky1: I read on a farmer's wife blog this week: 

"Success is liking youself, liking what you do and liking how you do it." Maya Angelou

Sandra Dodd: I like that, Alex.

Robin B.: Me, too.

Sandra Dodd: So a bar to liking oneself might be parental expectation, pressure, approval.

Sandra Dodd: I know a man with a PhD who feels a failure in his family because it's not a medical specialty as his mom and dad and siblings all have.

Sandra Dodd: I know another one, failure as a psychiatrist, because his brothers are surgeons.

Sandra Dodd: One's an unschooling dad, one's an ex-boyfriend. 

AlexPolikowsky1

My husband turned 52 on Monday and he wrote this:
"Thank you everyone for all the love and birthday greetings! It's been a typical day on a dairy farm. Tested milk this morning. Hauled bull calves after that. Had a calf born this afternoon and now finishing chores with Alex and Gigi! Spend time with my helluva wife and awesome kids tonight. Absolutely love what I do and put in a lot of 14-16 hr days but if u love what u do it feels like u never work a day in your life.‪#‎passion‬. Our herd has never looked better and we look forward to seeing many of y'all at the shows next yr! As I get another yr older I become more aware that's it's not the final destination that matters most but the journey that takes u there and enjoying the journey and all it has to offer and sharing it with others! Love to you all,Brian"

Robin B.: Sweet, Alex!

Sandra Dodd

Brian wrote something WONDERFUL! 

I hope you print it out and put it where your kids can read it 50 years from now.

Sandra Dodd: Am I a failure because I've rarely had a paying job since 1992? (I had one, working for a lawyer, but quit because she was a lying skank.)

AlexPolikowsky1: am I a failure because I have a degree, I speak languages and I am well educated but I do not have a career and make six figures like I could?

Sandra Dodd: Yeah, Alex, pretty much we're failures. Wasted education.

Sandra Dodd: Not living up to our potential.

AlexPolikowsky1: Exactly.

AlexPolikowsky1: We just are wasting our talents Sandra! But wait!

Robin B.: This chat is already helping me see that it isn't just about jobs and accomplishment. 

Sandra Dodd: So part of unschooling (the overall path and journey) is needing to find ways to be more like Brian Polikowsky and Maya Angelou. 

Sandra Dodd: But then she's dead, and he sticks his arm up cows' twats. So not JUST like, maybe...

Robin B.: I think of some of the coaching clients my husband has (he'a a race driver coach). So many of them are wildly successful in business and terribly unsuccessful in stable relationships. A recent one is on his 6th marriage and he's in his 50's.

AlexPolikowsky1: At least you are well know and published! And even have a Wikipedia page and has been on TV and interviews and speaking all over the world. Nope. Not a failure in other people's standarts!

Robin B.: Sandra! LOL!

AlexPolikowsky1: LOL Cows twats and butts!

Sandra Dodd: Robin, some people are successful in marriage, but not so much at business. 

Robin B.: I was listening to Tavis Smiley the other day, talking about Maya Angelou. Her grandson said she was a Renaissance woman. Oh, and her favorite music was country!

Robin B.: Yes, that's true, Sandra.

AlexPolikowsky1: Interesting Robin!

Sandra Dodd: For myself, Alex, it's not the travel and the speaking. It's actually and honestly being able to help the world be a better place. Or to help some people have a better life.

Robin B.: A noble pursuit, Sandra.

Robin B.: I think Maya Angelou did that as well.

Sandra Dodd: I'm glad to the chance, and some of you have done that too, or WILL do it!!

AlexPolikowsky1

and thank you so much for that Sandra! Because it has made a huge difference in the life of many families. Mine for sure.
Now you may not consider it a job but it is because you do it out of passion for something.

Sandra Dodd: And my husband helped the world indirectly by letting me go places and stay, and not complaining that I was speaking for free.

AlexPolikowsky1: Robin! Yes! A noble pursuit!

Sandra Dodd: What makes you feel like a successful mom, on a single day?

AlexPolikowsky1: He sure did! Thanks Keith !

Virginia Warren: Happy kids

Robin B.: When my daughter sidles up and leans into me. 

AlexPolikowsky1: When my kids are happy and excited about something . Or they come smiling and happy to share something with me! When I see them content and engaged.

Robin B.: Yes, that sharing.

Robin B.: Of happy things and things that upset her and she needs to talk about them.

Misa: Yesterday, we were talking about something and Kai said, "I'd tell people this is a good family to be a part of because my parents love me and they don't spank me and they care about me." That made me feel succesful, on that day.

Virginia Warren: When I set up that play date they want

AlexPolikowsky1: Yeah Robin. Daniel loves coming and telling me things and sharing stuff with me.

Robin B.: It's like she can trust me with her best and worst thoughts.

AlexPolikowsky1: Gigi too but she is more everywhere and open so it is easier to see with her.

Robin B.: So sweet, Misa!

Virginia Warren: When they tell me they love each other

AlexPolikowsky1

Misa that reminds me of a really cute interview I did with my kids:
http://polykow.blogspot.com/2009/02/i-lo...

Robin B.: Aw, Virginia. 

Misa: That's cute, Alex.

AlexPolikowsky1: IT is sweet Virginia!

Misa: Sometimes, I think it's easier to see the way I'm *not* a success as a parent, rather than ways I am.

Misa: But I'm working on trying to take a different view.

Virginia Warren: He's right about you becoming famous for being a nice mom!

Sandra Dodd: And being proud that you can type words on Roblox is nice.

AlexPolikowsky1: Ha! Virginia

Sandra Dodd: AND in a second language! You're a very successful mom, Alex. 

AlexPolikowsky1: That is because I was always very willing to help him on Roblox.

Virginia Warren

20. How do you know your mom loves you?

MD- She likes me

Virginia Warren: THIS

AlexPolikowsky1: It was very sweet that interview!Daniel was 6 and Gigi was 3.

Sandra Dodd: Once when Kirby was two and Marty was an infant, I had one of those days where the house is a worse mess than it was the day before, and I was exhausted, and there had been too much mess and bodily excretion and crying and frustration (mine, partly) and Keith came home. I cried and said all that whiney summary, and he said "Well they're alive. That's what's important." and he was very sweet. Not like I had a dinner plan, or a clean kitchen to even think about dinner. And he was nice. So most of my days have been better than THAT one, and Keith was even able to put the spin of success on that one. 

Robin B.: 

Robin B.: Keith rocks in so many ways. 

Virginia Warren: We've been playing Scribblenauts. I have spelled supersonic many times.

Sandra Dodd: And I could tell you all the bad things about Keith, but when I start to list even two in the same place, I stop myself, and go back to what's good about Keith.

AlexPolikowsky1: That is sweet Sandra.

Misa: Sandra, my husband has said the exact same thing on some of our worst days.

Misa: Which is super sweet. And is absolutely true.

Robin B.: Sandra, you tell us the good stuff. That's sweet and respectful.

Sandra Dodd: It's a legitimate point, evolutionarily. The guy goes off to hunt, and hopes when he gets back to the hut or the cave that his family hasn't been eaten by tigers.

AlexPolikowsky1: Yep I do not focus on the bad at all. It takes you nowhere but down.

Sandra Dodd: And whatever hoiking, nose-blowing, toilet-splattering, dirty-clothes-throwing irritation could be said about any man, he's not the only one. 

AlexPolikowsky1: Had not thought about it that way. I guess not being eaten by lions is a good thing 

Sandra Dodd: Their instinct is to go out and bring back what's needed, and the mom's instinct is to guard the kids and the stuff he brings. We go against our instinct a lot of times, but it's worth remembering, or feeling, sometimes what IS natural and good about people as biological creatures.

Sandra Dodd: Our culture tries to neutralize and cover over instinct. Sometimes it's nice to try to remember, or deconstruct ourselves.

Robin B.: I can't say those things about my husband. He's cleaner and tidier than I am, for sure.

Sandra Dodd: I mean whatever faults you know, of him, other men have those too. And when someone has "the pefect man," he's probably covering over some flaws, or lots of other women will want him, too. Or both. 

Robin B.: But he still goes off to hunt, as it were.

AlexPolikowsky1: You know I used to feel affronted if Brian left his clothes everywhere or his candy was spilled and wrappers by his chair. THe toilet splashed made me so mad ( rare thing still I got mad) and I used to nag and rag. Now it only bothers me 1% of the time and I just mumble to myself and move on. Thanks to unschooling I focus on the good and just clean out and am thankful he is healthy and working so hard for me to be home unschooling our kids.

Robin B.: Yes, I know. I was just thinking of how I never need to complain about his "habits."

Robin B.: I shouldn't say "never." Ha!

Sandra Dodd: Kirby has been a great success, thus far. But he's building up to quitting his job of eight years, at Blizzard Entertainment. When he's unemployed, my bragging rights expire.

Sandra Dodd: But someone loves him, and a little girl thinks he's the greatest guy in the world.

Robin B.: Yes.

Sandra Dodd: In her world, right now, he is.

Misa: I imagine my husband could complain about MY habits much more than I could his. But he still likes me.

Robin B.: Me, too, Misa.

AlexPolikowsky1: Me three 

Robin B.: You still have bragging rights, Sandra. Just not job-related, maybe.

Sandra Dodd: Marty---success? Works at Target. Someone loves him, though.

Sandra Dodd: Enough to have married him. And her family loves him LOTS.

AlexPolikowsky1: Does Kirby has a plan or is he just done with it? Or he wants to be close to family now that he has Destinee and the little girl?

Sandra Dodd: He will look for a job in Albuquerque, maybe with customer service management.

Sandra Dodd: So it's worth thinking in advance, if your kids are young, whether you will dismay of the whole thing if they don't go to college, or if they want to explore the world a while.

Sandra Dodd: Jill's daughter is exploring the world.  So is mine.

AlexPolikowsky1: My husband is just a poor farmer. Quit college to come home and save the family farm. Success for a large number of people is about how much money you make.

Jill Parmer: ((Sorry I'm late. My days are all mixed up, just realized it was Wednesday. Chat day. ))

AlexPolikowsky1: Exploring the world is amazing. I wish I had done it more when I was young. I did a bit.

Misa: People have asked about college, with Kai. Who is SIX. (SIX. There's time!) I tell people that I'd like him to have the option if that's what he wants but I'm not sure four years in college automatically makes on a success.

Misa: Makes one a success, I mean.

AlexPolikowsky1: I go back to what Maya Angelou said about doing what you like and liking yourself and how you do it. And to what Brian said that it is doing what you love not a destination but the journey.

Sandra Dodd: I think the world is changing so rapidly that college is unlikely, in twelve years, to look like it did twenty or thirty years ago or more, which is what most people are picturing.

AlexPolikowsky1: With College being so expensive and kids going in debt to get a degree to not use it many times I think by the time our kids are older things will be different already. I think they are already changing.

Sandra Dodd: Living in a peaceful way seems worth doing.

Sandra Dodd: Each day could be the last for one of us, for a family, for the planet. Dying all agitated about the future cannot POSSIBLY be an advantage.

Jill Parmer: Addi was talking to me the other day about conjugating verbs, and grammar. It was a private successful moment for me, because I wondered how my kids would get certain academic things. She's studying Spanish in Spain for a year or so.

Sandra Dodd: Holly's taking an art class, in India. She wrote " Today I am going to the art store by myself to for a pencil eraser, sharpener and a ruler. The style of art I'm learning is a bit mathematical"

Sandra Dodd: So learning will keep happening. 

AlexPolikowsky1: A year studying another language immerse in it is amazing. I do no understand why people want to hurry their kids to learn a language when they are young. I am sure Addi will be totally fluent and even with an accent ( that she may not even have) it will be awesome. Accents are cool.

Sandra Dodd: If Jill had said "you can't go to spain until you take an English class," she wouldn't have learned as much about English. 

AlexPolikowsky1: Awesome Sandra!!!! India has some amazing art!!

Sandra Dodd: She will discover more about English grammar and vocabulary by looking at it through Spanish.

Sandra Dodd: And the discovery will be way richer than if she were just reviewing things she memorized as a child.

AlexPolikowsky1: Absolutely!

AlexPolikowsky1: So what is success as a mother when your kids are grown?

Sandra Dodd

Holly, about that art, another comment (to Hema): 

My visit has been wonderful, this far, and I am expecting more goodness. I started art classes, and learning to make peacocks. Mathematical birds

Virginia Warren: Your kids want to live near you?

Sandra Dodd: Alex, I think it might be not pissing them off.

Sandra Dodd: If so, I'm not good at it yet. 

Sandra Dodd: Pam Sorooshian is better at it than I am. I try to channel Pam.

Misa: I think, probably, when your kids don't need you but they still enjoying having you in their lives, whether you're near or far.

AlexPolikowsky1: What is it that is does that helps?

Sandra Dodd: Me? I try to talk less.

Robin B.: I was thinking, Sandra, how you let Marty's relationship grow, even though you weren't so sure at the beginning.

Robin B.: And now they're married and happy and wanted you to be there at their wedding and are living in your old house. 

AlexPolikowsky1: Yes I remember you were not very sure and the last time you wrote about his wife you said that you had come to love her. That is pretty awesome that you waited to get to know and see how it would develop.

Virginia Warren: Maybe they trusted you to see the good that they could see?

Sandra Dodd: I wish I had said less, all along that. 

Sandra Dodd: I just talk too much.

Robin B.: 

Sandra Dodd: It didn't matter if I had seen it or not. They would've gone on without me.

AlexPolikowsky1: Yeah. I need to learn that too. I am much much better than I was. Still need to improve that.

Sandra Dodd: But that's another instinctive thing—protection urges.

Robin B.: Yes.

Sandra Dodd: Now it looks like she will take care of him and I don't have to. That's cool.

Robin B.: And it's better than you like her.

Robin B.: that

AlexPolikowsky1: Yeah protection urges from mamma bear. I totally get it.

AlexPolikowsky1: I do not understand the mothers that side against their children. I have seen it. Specially on how Brian's mother was and is. That has divided them so much. There was a bruhaha this weekend with his family and Brian told his mom she was a terrible mother ( in other words) and told me she never liked him. I am sad for the little boy inside him. To grow up and think your mother does not like you and never did. This is not a new feeling. He has said that many times. He can never do right and I think that is the thing. He is not doing what she things he should do.

Sandra Dodd joined the chat 65 minutes ago

Sandra Dodd: I got lost. Sorry.

Sandra Dodd: So that is not success FOR THE MOM.

Sandra Dodd

Poor Brian.
But I am critical of Holly sometimes, when I think she could have been nicer.

Sandra Dodd: So again.... I should not talk so much.

Sandra Dodd: So success involves safety

Sandra Dodd: Happiness

Sandra Dodd: Contentment

Sandra Dodd: Confidence and trust

Sandra Dodd: Doing what we like and liking what we do

AlexPolikowsky1: I think liking yourself!! I like that. How can you feel successful if you do not like you!

Sandra Dodd: Feeling calm and whole is what I think of when I think of liking myself.

Robin B.: I think it's hard, if you've been made to feel unlikeable (thinking about my husband's similar experience to yours, Alex).

Robin B.: to Brian's I mean.

Robin B.: Calm and whole is good!!

Sandra Dodd: But outside, the idea of "success" will always involve whether someone can make some money, I think, or marry someone who can. 

Sandra Dodd: And procure and maintain a home.

Robin B.: Or have a college degree.

Sandra Dodd: Some unschoolers are doing that and some haven't yet and some are years from the opportunity to do so.

Sandra Dodd: But we can't disregard that entirely.

Sandra Dodd: But it doesn't need to happen at 18, or 21.

AlexPolikowsky1: making money is a big one I think.

Virginia Warren: Growing up feeling like my parents didn't like me left me feeling like nobody really likes me.

Robin B.: Is some of that instinctual, too, though? That kind of success? Having a home and enough money to support a family?

Sandra Dodd: yes.

Sandra Dodd: Natural biological shelter

Sandra Dodd: Marty was telling me about reading something about current conditions of millenials and maturity, expectations, opportunities. He said that they are not expected or allowed to 'be grown' now until they're 30 or so.

Sandra Dodd: That was interesting.

AlexPolikowsky1

Who is more successful :
A person who is making 6 figures and has means but has 5 marriages gone wrong, does not get along with his kids and is not a happy person
Or
A person who does what he loves but lives month to month without money to spare but happily with his family.

Sandra Dodd: It had to do with economics, jobs, home ownership and such, I think. Or the expectation that they will stop living with others in groups, and "pair up."

Jill Parmer: I wonder if school does that, not allowing someone to be grown until they are 30?

Sandra Dodd: Depends who's calling it, Alex. 

Robin B.: Is that because they're kept in artificial environments for so long, as well?

Robin B.: Ha, Jill!

Sandra Dodd

Yes.
Marty said that college now was like high school used to be, when a family gives a kid no option but to go there.

Jill Parmer: People get out of high school and don't know what to do. Or college and have huge expectations, and can't get a job in their field. So it takes a decade to deschool?

Sandra Dodd: So now, kids who don't go to university are like the high school dropouts of the 1940's, I guess. 

Sandra Dodd: And my current negative focus (which I try not to think about)—student loans.

Jill Parmer: Yes, Robin, that's I what I think, they are in artificial environments for so long.

Sandra Dodd: SO huge and so expensive, and they are based, it seems, on the income they MIGHT ideally get with the degree they're borrowing on.

Sandra Dodd: But jobs aren't there, and some kids drop out.

Sandra Dodd: And they lend (at high rates of interest) money to live, and for books, and spending money.

Robin B.: Maybe we should send our kids to Europe where universities are free. 

Sandra Dodd: That should be very illegal, to lend a teenager a hundred thousand dollars.

Robin B.: In some countries, anyway.

AlexPolikowsky1: Yeah some of my nephews and nieces in College are like school kids. They are not young adults. They are still doing what mom and dad want. It is really weird for me. I am glad their parents are supportive thou.

AlexPolikowsky1: While they are doing what the parents want/

Robin B.: It seems like a terrible investment with a lot of pressure.

Sandra Dodd: So I think the definition of success is MORE muddled now than it used to be.

Sandra Dodd: A hundred years ago, being able to farm well enough to have food all winter counted.

Sandra Dodd: Having ANY job couned.

Sandra Dodd: counted.

Robin B.: Yes. Now, everybody must also be a star, be famous.

Robin B.: Make oodles of money.

Sandra Dodd: Now some jobs are villified and the workers shamed. If someone works in fast food, even if he's the manager or franchise owner, that's sneered at.

Robin B.: BTW, I think it's awesome that Marty works at Target. I'd like to work at Target.

Jill Parmer: Addi has made some comments that she's having to grow up fast, being in another country by herself. I see her doing what she's always done, has a problem, frets about it for a bit, and then takes action. We ask her questions and give her ideas when talking to her.

Sandra Dodd: Early to mid 20th century, being in the military counted. Now that's not very highly regarded by many.

Sandra Dodd: I think it has the potential to be a good job, Robin, but he wants to get a degree and do something different eventually.

Robin B.: Jill, it's cool that it's her choice, though. And if she decided she wasn't ready, she could come home to loving parents.

AlexPolikowsky1: and if a parent thinks their child is Gifted that would make that pressure be even more suffocating!

Jill Parmer: Right, Robin.

Sandra Dodd: yes.

Sandra Dodd: Yes to all of that. 

Sandra Dodd: These are advantages of the current technology—that Addi is in Spain but can talk to her mom.

Sandra Dodd: And Holly, if she gets homesick, could pay something extra for an earlier flight. I think British Airways would give her some credit on her return flight and get her home safely.

AlexPolikowsky1: Absolutely! As someone that went to live in another country as a teen to work and learn a trade ( showing dogs was my passion then) I wish I had skype and all that.

Jill Parmer: Steve gets to be in Spain for the holidays. When I heard Steve and Addi on skype, she was making plans for them to go to dinner and travel to the restaurant by bus or train. Handling everything, telling Steve, she'd take care of it.  

Misa: When I was little, my dad was stationed in Germany. I rarely got to talk to my grandparents. But I comforted myself with the knowledge that if I'd been in the time of Laura and Mary (Ingalls), I may NEVER have heard from them.

Sandra Dodd: Cool, jill

Misa: Now, after our move, we can Skype with the people we left behind.

Sandra Dodd: If it had been the time of Laura Ingalls, Holly would still be on a boat on her way. 

Sandra Dodd: And MAYBE I would get one letter from her.

AlexPolikowsky1: Misa my kids only know my dad because of Skype. Even my son that does not like to chat on Skype comes and says hi to his grandfather.

Sandra Dodd: Success is changing.

Sandra Dodd: Don't let others tell you whether you're successful or not, though.

Sandra Dodd: It's something to feel yourself, in your own life.

Sandra Dodd: Things go screwy sometimes. A parent goes crazy, or gets really sick or dies. Lots of it is luck. We can look at good things in our marriages, but sometimes still the crazy, sick or death will get in.

AlexPolikowsky1: When I lived here in the US as a teen my mom had no idea where I was most of the time. Because we were always travelling to the dog shows everywhere. Once I called her from Hawaii! Hey mom I am in Hawaii. Hey mom I am in New York City! It was fun! Now I could Skype her from my phone and see her!

Misa: The answer to "Are you successful?" would really have to be, "At what?"

Sandra Dodd: 

Sandra Dodd: When I was 14, I learned to play guitar, and I learned FAST and well, and was finger-picking and making accompaniments to songs I knew (didn't write any). People would be impressed and say "how long have you played guitar?"

Sandra Dodd: When I was saying "six months" I was AMAZING.

Sandra Dodd: When I was saying "A year," I was GREAT!

Sandra Dodd: I didn't learn lots more, after a few years, though and now if I play those same things and they ask how long and I say "37 years!" then I suck.

Sandra Dodd: And that's part of what giftedness does for people. 

Sandra Dodd: At first you're amazing and later you suck. 

Robin B.: Right.

AlexPolikowsky1: Yes and there is successful and there is accomplished ! Are they the same? do they go hand in hand? sometimes?

Sandra Dodd: The doctor-dad of my best friend. He was amazing, at first. But later he drank a lot, and botched some things (sad stories of not being sober or careful in the emergency room). He was sometimes a success and sometimes sucked.

AlexPolikowsky1: What about fame? Or people that are infamous?

Sandra Dodd: It kind of depends on the field and the competition.

Sandra Dodd: Wizard of Oz didn't get the academy award for best picture.

Sandra Dodd: Because of that pesky "Gone with the Wind."

AlexPolikowsky1: HA!

Sandra Dodd: Someone is valedictorian of a class because nobody happened to be there who was just a touch better at schoolishness.

Sandra Dodd: They were off at some other school, maybe being NOT valedictorian.

Sandra Dodd: Much of life is random happenstance.

Sandra Dodd: And much is genetics.

Sandra Dodd: And we don't talk about that much, in unschooling discussions.

Sandra Dodd: Because given the genetic baseline, and the inevitability of random factors, there ARE things that can move a family toward "better" (or away from it).

[Then it got more casual and personal, with stories of success and failure in friends and relatives, and changing life-factors, and instability of one kind and another, and decided it was good to live in the moment as well as we could.]