October 29 2014
Topic: "Me time" (edited by Sandra Dodd)
Topic: "Me time" (edited by Sandra Dodd)
From Sandra's notes for today's chat:
"This might be a hard one.
It seems harsh to suggest that the more a parent is with a child, the more time she will have to herself, ultimately. It would be harsher to say "Yeah, whatever; you deserve lots of private time," at the risk of breaking some of the bond and trust unschooling needs.
Examples and links to prior discussions might be helpful."
Sandra Dodd: I have started a page to go with this topic:
Sandra Dodd: http://sandradodd.com/metime
It's not ready to really launch yet, though.
Virginia Warren: Yes, I recognize that from AL. This: "When the children don't feel that I'm trying to get time apart from them, they seem to need me less." So true.
Virginia Warren: Last night, my younger daughter encouraged me to go on a date with her Dad on our anniversary, coming up on the 8th
Jaclyn Koehl: Hi, Good Morning!
AlexPolikowsky4: I am holding on till we have 10 or it is time! 
Sandra Dodd: How many years will you have been married, Virginia?
Virginia Warren: 15
Sandra Dodd: Congratulations!
Virginia Warren: So, speaking of "adult time", we had 5 solid years before kids.
Virginia Warren: Thanks!
Jaclyn Koehl: Congratulations Virginia!
Virginia Warren: Thanks Jaclyn!
Jill Parmer: Congratulations, Virginia.
Virginia Warren: Thanks Jill.
Jill Parmer: Next Wed. I will be in them!
AlexPolikowsky4: Congratulations Virginia!
Virginia Warren: Thanks Alex
Sandra Dodd: We have ten! Alex, Go!
AlexPolikowsky4: IS Me time something mother's crave because of all the expectations and cultural norms of "Mothers need me time"? or it is a need that comes from inside them?
Sandra Dodd: THAT IS IMPORTANT.
Sandra Dodd: I've wondered that, too.
Robin B.: Alex, I think many mothers can be unprepared for the real and present needs of children, to start with.
Misa: I imagine it's probably a bit of both.
Robin B.: If a mom is overwhelmed, the promise of "me" time can be enticing.
Virginia Warren: Do chimp moms need "me time"?
Sandra Dodd: One day when my boys were 9 and 12 or so we were in the car two blocks from here, and they were talking to each other in the back, and then one asked "Mom, what is plastic surgery?"
Sandra Dodd: I told them and they seemed disappointed. "Oh." Sadly.
Sandra Dodd: "Why?"
Sandra Dodd: "We saw on TV that some kids want plastic surgery."
Sandra Dodd: It had been a promo for some talk show, and they had no idea what "surgery" was," and they assumed it was some cool toy or game they needed.
Sandra Dodd: So I've wondered if moms want "Me" time because of something as casual as a TV promo.
AlexPolikowsky4: I really have not have any urges to have "Me Time". I have always thought it is because I got married and had kids later in life and I have done lots of things and that I am certain that my family is the best thing ever in my life and my kids ARE my passion that I do not feel deprived. But maybe it is because I see them as a choice ?
AlexPolikowsky4
Robin I was unprepared. I thought I would have much more time because my kid would be sleeping a lot! HA!
I had a kid that I could not put down for a second! I embraced it and I actually did not really like putting him down
I had a kid that I could not put down for a second! I embraced it and I actually did not really like putting him down
Sandra Dodd: Yes.
Sandra Dodd: The idea of choice is so crucial in all of this.
Jill Parmer: I'm not sure Alex. Before unschooling I used to go out with a friend every Monday night, and sometimes it was a struggle because my family wanted me home. After unschooling I loved being with my family so much it was more fun to stay home, than go out with this friend.
Regan: I didn't identify with "me time" but as an introvert wanted to have alone time.
AlexPolikowsky4: Yes Sandra and because moms are always bragging about getting a manicure and pedicure and being away from kids. I never got that. But maybe because I had many of them all my life and tons of time!?
Robin B.: I have friends who fought the natural needs of their kids. They didn't want to "lose themselves." To some degree, it was an identity thing, especially if they had a career prior to having children.
AlexPolikowsky4: Regan I get the alone time. I learned to have them in little snippets . One minute here, 5 there . And now that my kids are older I get lots of it
Sandra Dodd: A century ago (in this culture) there were NOT choices, and even now some families (by choice) are members of religions that encourage procreation without contraception, the more the better...
Sandra Dodd: But when a mom decides to have a baby and then whines that whining can be irritating to me.
AlexPolikowsky4: UGH! Sandra that is terrible when you have no choice!
Sandra Dodd: If we were dealing with "no choice" situations, I would cite acceptance of God's will. SOMEhow moms are better off feeling content than being resentful.
Sandra Dodd: Resentment doesn't solve the problem. It becomes an ugly additional problem.
Misa: Some people come to unschooling in part because they want to be "cycle breakers". Which is great. But I think there's a bit of, "When is it my turn?" that can go on there. If you grew up in a house where you were mistreated but felt you'd get "me time" as an adult and then you don't get that, it can be very harsh. Learning to fill those needs WITH your family can be a challenge.
AlexPolikowsky4: When my kids started to both decide to stay home while I ran errands I missed them like crazy and sometimes I cut my errands short to go home and be with them.
Sandra Dodd: Misa, I agree with you.
Sandra Dodd: And those without any intention (mindful awareness) of being "cycle breakers" get it BAD if they're wanting what they looked forward to and THEN we tell them to let it skip a generation.
Sandra Dodd: If I had grown up wanting to spank because I was spanked, or to drink as much as I want because I'm grown, or to "do anything I want to" because I finally (I imagine) CAN,
Sandra Dodd: then I would be perpetuating the same old thing.
Sandra Dodd: And my kids might grow up just waiting and waiting until they could be "grown ups" and do those (imaginarily) "adult" things.
Sandra Dodd: But reason and compassion are like a whole different world.
Sandra Dodd: And my kids are not needy.
Sandra Dodd: And it is awesome.
Sandra Dodd: But I could have made them needy if I hadn't been willing to relax and to melt into their world.
Sandra Dodd: In school I was pressured not to be friendly with teachers, not to get good grades, not to participate in class.
Sandra Dodd: When I was in college I was pressured not to study, not to go to class all the time, not to take classes just because I liked them, or (by others) not to take hard classes.
Sandra Dodd: As a teacher, I was pressured not to work too hard. Not to spend any of my own money, or time.
Sandra Dodd: And as a mother, I KNOW I could have found people to spin up a background noise of all of that kind of "we work so hard, we don't have to be so nice to them" all the time.
Sandra Dodd: I knew where those mothers were, in fact, those "friends," and I knew what they would say to me because they were saying it to each other,
Sandra Dodd: but by then I was in my 30's and I saw that they were not happy and they were just more of the same "don't wreck the curve" and "let's party" noise I had heard my whole life.
AlexPolikowsky4
I think mom's "Me Time" comes a lot from the cultural expectations around us. From the other moms talking about it and making it seem like better than being happily with their kids. It is one of the big things moms talk about when they get together.
The three things I avoid in mom groups:
Bashing kids
Bashing Partners
(or complaining about them)
Me Time and how we deserve it /because it is better than being with your family!
The three things I avoid in mom groups:
Bashing kids
Bashing Partners
(or complaining about them)
Me Time and how we deserve it /because it is better than being with your family!
AlexPolikowsky4: and I am not saying it is bad to go do something without your family! I have done some. Every few months. SOme I came home and wished I had not gone at all but some were fun. Going to watch Twilight movies at midnight with friends was fun. To go watch Magic Mike was not and I wished I stayed home. UGh!
AlexPolikowsky4
I remember hearing here in the US when I first come to be a Dog Handler assistant: "Don't work too hard!" from many of their clients.
Because I LOVED what I did and I worked super hard because that is why I came. So that was puzzling to me.
Because I LOVED what I did and I worked super hard because that is why I came. So that was puzzling to me.
Sandra Dodd: I hear it even among unschoolers sometimes, but mostly about negativity. I'll be poked at some by others I know in person who really Do cling to their negativity. It shows in their families, too, in the meanness of humor and in their children's eyes. (And it might be partly genetic, but it is definitely the atmosphere, when someone is mean for fun.)
AlexPolikowsky4
Yes Sandra I know many parents like that and most homeschoolers around. When I say I love to be with my kids they get mad at me.
It seems really strange that they chose to homeschool while making " me time" such a big thing. They make it sound like the most amazing thing, a prize they get really!
It seems really strange that they chose to homeschool while making " me time" such a big thing. They make it sound like the most amazing thing, a prize they get really!
Sandra Dodd: So if positivity is a goal in a family, and if service is seen as valuable, the fantasy that going to see Magic Mike will be better than being at home can't take root.
AlexPolikowsky4: Yep! If home is a wonderful warm, positive and joyful place and I believe mom can make it that way!
and I believe mom can make it that way!
Sandra Dodd: It's possible that it's a fad like "quality time" was. (Which was a legal concept in divorce courts in the 1980's, more than just a faddish phrase.)
Regan: I have felt conflicted because my friends' kids seem to really like their babysitter(s), so from here it looks like mom and kids are happy, and mom remains part of the world.
Sandra Dodd: There are some great babysitters in the world! We had our neighbor Amy. Holly sat for an unschooling family for a while, which had unfortunately just divorced and the mom was getting a master's degree). I don't know if those girls were able to stay home later, but while Holly was there, they were having a great time.
AlexPolikowsky4: Maybe their sitter is more fun then mom but I can see Gigi loving to be with a young sitter ! She loves some of my adopted teens ( a couple of teens that sometimes hide in my house for the weekend or a night) They are sweet girls and they love Gigi and Gigi loves being with them.
Virginia Warren: Kids make do. If telling mom you wish she would stay home doesn't work, well, there's only so much rejection people can take before they stop asking. I don't mean to say this is always the case.
Sandra Dodd: I wonder if ""me" time" is ever used in family law. Is it grounds for divorce, for the husband not to provide the means for "me" time?
Sandra Dodd: Virginia, you're right.
Sandra Dodd: The desire to be with that other person can erode and die.
Sandra Dodd: And that's why attachment parenting does what it does.
Sandra Dodd: We saw lots of examples, when I was in La Leche League and we had so many park days and longterm friendships, that the parents who let the children sit with them, or on them, had kids who would at some point go happily halfway across the park.
Sandra Dodd: But those who were TELLING kids to go across the park, trying to get rid of them, had kids who wanted nothing but to be with their (rejecting) moms.
AlexPolikowsky4: I never heard about it Sandra but who knows! Maybe?
AlexPolikowsky4: When I came back from Magic Mike and Brian asked me how it went I told him I wished I had just stayed home and watched TV with them. Gigi told me I should have stayed with her
Misa: Connection is used in family law. The courts will often give more parenting time to people who spend more time with the kids and are more connected - and still able to stay emotionally healthy. Particularly if you have a Guardian ad Litem. or some such person.
AlexPolikowsky4: "Guardians are adults who are legally responsible for protecting the well-being and interests of their ward, who is usually a minor. A guardian ad litem is a unique type of guardian in a relationship that has been created by a court order only for the duration of a legal action. Courts appoint these special representatives for infants, minors, and mentally incompetent persons, all of whom generally need help protecting their rights in court. Such court-appointed guardians figure in divorces, child neglect and abuse cases, paternity suits, contested inheritances, and so forth, and are usually attorneys."
Misa: In many states (I'm not sure about other countries), you can ask to have a guardian ad litem assigned to your case. They're like a "parent evaluator". Their job is to figure out the needs of the child.
Virginia Warren: Yikes
AlexPolikowsky4: and what is in the best interest of the child and not the adults ( parents ) involved in the dispute.
Misa: That's very dry for what they do. They will ask for parenting references - they prefer non-family - and they come to your home and spend time with you with your kids, you without your kids, and, if the kids are old enough, will talk to the kids without you.
AlexPolikowsky4
and unfortunately they are needed in many cases and actually can be a good thing .
One less thing to worry if the unschooling family is making sure their marriage/partnership is strong and healthy.
One less thing to worry if the unschooling family is making sure their marriage/partnership is strong and healthy.
AlexPolikowsky4: and people get mad at Sandra for advocating for strong marriages !
Sandra Dodd: They do get mad at me. They insult me for being a fundamentalist Christian (which I'm not) and they insult me for being anti-feminist (which I'm not) and they bite and gnarl like dogs.
Sandra Dodd: I'm pro-peace-and-joy-for-children.
Robin B.: Who does, Sandra?
Robin B.: Oh those who get mad about advocating for strong marriages.
Virginia Warren: Whoo, I got so mad when I complained about my husband on AL and everyone told me to be nicer! They were right, though.
Debbie: It's ok if it's a happy arrangement, with the mom going out and the sitter with the kids. But if the mom and the kids are pulling in different directions, that's not so good.
Robin B.: It's that "I deserve" thing.
Robin B.: Or other people telling you what you deserve "a husband who does x" "time alone."
AlexPolikowsky4: I am so glad you do advocate strongly for healthy strong marriages. I don't think mine would have been now if it was not for you Sandra. So much better than it was before. I can see how it could have gone in the other direction had you not kept pointing it out at Always Learning how important it was and why!
AlexPolikowsky4: Thank you!
Marta Pires: What Alex said! ^^^^
Virginia Warren: People get mad when Sandra points out that every negative word or thought is a tiny step down the road to divorce.
Heather C: Hello
Heather C: I'm trying to work really hard on my positive wording
Heather C: I only started unschooling my kids last week so its still new for us
heathermbooth: I found it! I was looking for what I wrote when I was new to unschooling and "me time" quit making sense to me. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Alwa... I'm a little teary reading that now. It was a really sweet night.
AlexPolikowsky4
and not taking your spouse in considerations and being adversaries and not partners. And to apply the same principles towards your spouse that you do to your children.
But back at "Me Time"
I am not saying mom's should not do anything for themselves.
It is all about priorities.
My priorities are my family and my children and not having "me time".
I focus on the joy of sharing life with them and not in what I am missing if I has just gone to spend the weekend iwth the girls somewhere!
I can do that when the kids are older!
Kids are getting older every day!!!!!!
But back at "Me Time"
I am not saying mom's should not do anything for themselves.
It is all about priorities.
My priorities are my family and my children and not having "me time".
I focus on the joy of sharing life with them and not in what I am missing if I has just gone to spend the weekend iwth the girls somewhere!
I can do that when the kids are older!
Kids are getting older every day!!!!!!
Robin B.: Yes, what Alex said. Sandra's like my conscience.
Heather C: I feel the same way. I didn't have my children to spend time with my friends. I had my children to be a family and spend time together.
AlexPolikowsky4
I am always flabbergasted ( is that even a word?) when people call Sandra negative!
Because she has brought so much positiveness to me and my family I cannot thank her enough!
Because she has brought so much positiveness to me and my family I cannot thank her enough!
heathermbooth: That little stick figure guy is still in the qtip container Whenever we get to the end of it there he is. <3
Whenever we get to the end of it there he is. <3
Robin B.: Very sweet, Heather.
Virginia Warren: It's projection, Alex
AlexPolikowsky4: Sweet, Heather!
Virginia Warren: Yes, flabbergasted is an awesome real word.
Heather C: It's nice to see someone still advocating for the family to be together when society is so much about time apart these days and how each person needs their own space. And look what it has gotten us. My 9 yr old still sleeps with my husband and I and I get negative feedback all the time. I believe he won't sleep with me for a lot longer than he will sleep with me and he feels safe. I love that Sandra encourages that as well
Debbie: Sandra's page might need a photo of that little stick figure guy, Heather 
regan: I wanted a family, but I wanted to keep my friends too.
Virginia Warren: My 9 year old still sleeps with us, but my 7 year old has been sleeping alone for years. Every kid is different.
AlexPolikowsky4
So back from my love fest!
I want to say that I get lots of "me time" and "alone time" when I do this chat, watch my Korean Drama shows, Garden, Mow the lawn ....and much more.
What I can do happily now is be interrupted at any time if my family needs me.
Or put it off for them with joy . It will be there waiting for me.
I can do things that make me happy . When my kids are younger it was harder and the time I got to do those things shorter.
They are getting longer and longer.
And some times I actually miss my kids when they are super engaged and happy and do not want or need me. I take those times also to get them something sweet like a snack or just tell them I love them.
I want to say that I get lots of "me time" and "alone time" when I do this chat, watch my Korean Drama shows, Garden, Mow the lawn ....and much more.
What I can do happily now is be interrupted at any time if my family needs me.
Or put it off for them with joy . It will be there waiting for me.
I can do things that make me happy . When my kids are younger it was harder and the time I got to do those things shorter.
They are getting longer and longer.
And some times I actually miss my kids when they are super engaged and happy and do not want or need me. I take those times also to get them something sweet like a snack or just tell them I love them.
Heather C: Regan, I agree. I simply meant that I include my kids when I spend time with my friends. I don't try and do it without them.
AlexPolikowsky4: Regan thanks to facebook I stay somewhat connected to friends and made many more great ones!
Sandra Dodd: Once Keith was answering a question from Kirby about math, and Kirby had his answer but Keith kept on and on and ON after Kirby had thanked him and backed away, and after I rescued Kirby by asking him to do something (I think... I said something that let him escape), Keith said in a snippy way, "I thought he wanted to know." I THINK that for Keith, a math question was a request for a 50-minute lecture.
Sandra Dodd: And I think maybe "me" time can come in very short bursts, too, but magazine articles and friends who want to disrupt other people's peaceful family life advertise it as long days at the spa, or leisurely lunches in restaurants where kids aren't allowed.
Sandra Dodd: OH YES! -=- Debbie: Sandra's page might need a photo of that little stick figure guy, Heather -=-
Sandra Dodd: I was thinking when I read the original and picturing where I would put it that I wish you'd taken a picture of the stick figures in the bathroom!
Virginia Warren: I have an acquaintance who took a week long tropical vacation with her girlfriends when her baby was just a few weeks old. Left her husband with a newborn and a 3 year old and split.
regan: My husband and I just realized last week that his work contacts have diminished a lot since we had our child -- he is freelance, and it turns out that many of his connections were via my friendships.
heathermbooth: I wish I had too! I may have a photo shoot with him today with the way he was when I first saw him.
Sandra Dodd: Alex, when you're mowing the lawn or gardening, you're considering that "me" time because... because they're choices? Or service to your family? Or making your family life better?
Sandra Dodd: Virginia, is your acquaintance still married?
Virginia Warren: Yes. Well, I think so. I think I would have heard if she got divorced.
AlexPolikowsky4: I do! I put some great music or an audio book and I mow the lawn. I am alone and I enjoy it immensely! I learned to take what I can get and make the most of it by enjoying and being grateful I have all this lawn to mow!
Sandra Dodd: I like bringing in firewood, as a singular, restorative activity.
Sandra Dodd: In summer, pulling weeds. Winter, taking care of the fireplace and such.
AlexPolikowsky4: OH YEAH! the fireplace is my thing too! I enjoy it ! Making the house warm for everyone! Gigi and Brian love the fireplace ( so do the animals!)
regan: At what age could the children tolerate mom being outside mowing with headphones on? Mine is 5.5 and just today I went to get the mail (at his request), stopped at the side of the house to look at a flower, and when I came in, he was crying for me.
Robin B.: It depends on the child, Regan.
Virginia Warren: Washing dishes! Sandra wrote a great thing about washing dishes.
Virginia Warren: Be grateful for your dishes. And the running water. And the meal you ate off them.
Sandra Dodd: http://sandradodd.com/dishes
Marta Pires: Yes Alex, this chat is also part of my "me time" of the week. And because I've read what Sandra and you and others have written about it, I'm also gladly paying attention to Conchinha, who is playing on her iPad and asking me to take a look now and then, and then coming here to read a bit.
And because I've read what Sandra and you and others have written about it, I'm also gladly paying attention to Conchinha, who is playing on her iPad and asking me to take a look now and then, and then coming here to read a bit.
AlexPolikowsky4: Gardening is another great alone "me time" I can have an audio book and do it for hours. I can be interrupted anytime if the kids need me or I can postpone. I am still home! Kids can get me. Brian can ask for help if the cows get out. I still get alone me time doing something I am grateful I can do!
Sandra Dodd: -=-At what age could the children tolerate mom being outside-=-
Sandra Dodd: "Tolerate" isn't a good thing to think.
Sandra Dodd: If they can't be HAPPY with the mom elsewhere (and safe, which a 5 yr old can't be), then don't do it.
Sandra Dodd: The more you're with them early, the more you will be able to be without them later.
Jill Parmer: Addi is Spain for an undetermined amount of time. This summer I spent as much time with her as I could. I wanted to put a lot of time into that, because I don't get it now. She's happy, and I'm happy that she's doing what she's doing.
Marta Pires: If it were a few years ago, I think I would get impatient and would want to be here without any interruptions. But then what would be the point of being here? To learn how to be with my child while I'm totally not being with her??
AlexPolikowsky4: Exactly Marta!
AlexPolikowsky4: It depends!!!!! Gigi would help me garden when she was 5 or play in the sand box near me. When my son was 5 and she was not even two I did NOT have a garden and my lawn was often a jungle! It is all good!
It is all good!
Jill Parmer: Now I'm spending as much time as I can with Luke, because he'll be off doing things with others before I know it.
Sandra Dodd: I heard a quote once that I've always thought I would find again. 35 years ago I heard it, and I still haven't found it. It was presented as a Jewish grandmother phrase that was something about you WILL spend a certain amount of time with your child, and it's better if it's when they're young than when theyr'e older and you're getting them out of jail/trouble/I don't remember.
Sandra Dodd: If any of you now the story/phrase/quote, I would love to have it as I heard it and a citation and all.
Robin B.: Jill, I am doing the same thing with Senna. She's not going anywhere, soon, but I've been feeling like my interests have taken over. So I'm stepping back.
Robin B.: I'm finding things that I love in what she loves, all over again.
Jill Parmer: Yes! Robin.
Virginia Warren: Marta, yes! I've brought food and distributed kisses several times over this chat.
Sandra Dodd: A mother's helper—someone too young to really babysit, but who can help the kids and play with them while the mom is still at the house—might help a mom get to mow with an audio book, as long as the babysitter could get her attention.
Jill Parmer: And it's so interesting to hear their thoughts and feelings about things.
Sandra Dodd: I listen to audiobooks with my phone instead of an iPad sometimes, and it's great because if a call comes, it pauses the "book."
Robin B.: Yes. I am around more to hear those thoughts and feelings!
Sandra Dodd: Virginia, thanks for mentioning that page on dishes.
Sandra Dodd: I hadn't quoted from that page (on Just Add Light and Stir) for a long time!
AlexPolikowsky4
Regan I am a person with LOTS of passions ! there are many things that I am gladly putting off to be with my kids. All those things will be there later or if now they are not more important than being with my kids now!
When I could not really get much time alone I took a minute here or there if I could happily. But most of all my kids are my BIGGEST passion.
I want to be with them~! I love them so much and they grow so fast. I miss my son when he was 5! he is 12 and I never look back and wished I had done more alone and away from him , quite the contrary I wished I had been even more with him!
I miss when he used to watch TV in my lap and playing Super Mario with him! So much fun!
When I could not really get much time alone I took a minute here or there if I could happily. But most of all my kids are my BIGGEST passion.
I want to be with them~! I love them so much and they grow so fast. I miss my son when he was 5! he is 12 and I never look back and wished I had done more alone and away from him , quite the contrary I wished I had been even more with him!
I miss when he used to watch TV in my lap and playing Super Mario with him! So much fun!
Virginia Warren: The idea of housework as service has been life-changing for me
The idea of housework as service has been life-changing for me
Jill Parmer: After listening to unschooling discussions long ago about putting in the time with your children, I did that. And I'm so happy. For me it paid off in kids moving on when they were ready, and Addi is handling herself fine in another country. She talks to us a lot on skype, and especially Steve, because he speaks Spanish.
Marta Pires: I remember when you were here last year, Sandra, and I'd sometimes (ok, maybe a lot of times) interrupt you when you were in your room. You would always drop what you were doing and talk to me. I remember thinking that maybe you didn't have a hard time doing that because you were used to doing things in small snippets. 
Robin B.: That's cool, Jill.
Sandra Dodd: It was your house, Marta! You can talk as much as you want! I was there to be at your house!
I was there to be at your house!
regan: For me, I feel I have not been putting off passions, but that it's hard to go to the dentist or buy my husband a gift or get groceries if my child doesn't want to come.
Marta Pires: Jill, I've felt that Addi seems to be more settled in too!
Marta Pires: Oh, but you were so attentive and generous with your time, Sandra! I appreciated it so much, because I knew you were super tired.
Heather C: Regan is this your first child?
Sandra Dodd: Why did a five year old ask you to get the mail? [...went to get the mail (at his request)]
Sandra Dodd: Why didn't you ask him to go with you?
regan: He was playing handyman at the doorjamb and kept asking me "Can you do me a big favor?" and would send me on a little errand.
AlexPolikowsky4: That is more about being creative Regan and finding ways to do it or entice a child to come out!
regan: (first child, only child)
Sandra Dodd: Me, too, Virginia: "The idea of housework as service has been life-changing for me." I could be a bundle of resentment.
Heather C: It's all a learning process. I have 3 kids and they don't all want to do the same things at the same time but I try to make everything interested for them
Sandra Dodd: And some moms "send the bill."
Sandra Dodd: I did this and this and that for you and now look...
Sandra Dodd: I suppose I've done that with Holly sometimes, but not about housework.
Sandra Dodd: About her still living here at nearly-23. I want her to be nice, sweet, patient. But she's also 22.
Sandra Dodd: "Sending the bill" isn't a nice thing to do. And it might tie in to "me time," as though 80 hours of housework (which one should not be counting) buys 20 hours of "me time" or something.
heathermbooth: Austin comes in my room at night to chat. Sometimes it's late and I'm tired. He spends most of his day on Skype with his friend so when he comes in my room at night to chat I want to sit up, wake up a bit, and chat with him.
Marta Pires: Yes, same here, Virginia.
Heather C: Regan I told my sister-in-law when she had her first and only. Don't let having a child turn you into a hermit and change who you are. Take that child along with you and the more you include the child the easier it gets.
regan: Yes, but you can only take the child along with you if they want to go. My son sees the world through an anxious lens and does not like many places.
Sandra Dodd: So he sent you on an errand and you didn't come back quick enough for his comfort.
Sandra Dodd: That wasn't good for anxiety.
Sandra Dodd: These chats are saved (I should have mentioned, when I saw new-new people here) so don't tell any stories you don't want preserved forever in public.
Sandra Dodd: I don't do private unschooling help. Just all public.
AlexPolikowsky4: I think some parents feed their kids anxiety and respond in a way that it seems they are right to be anxious about things. There is a way to support an anxious child and a way to coddle ( I don't like the word but not finding a better one-help) a child to stay where they are in an anxious state.
Sandra Dodd: "enable," Alex?
AlexPolikowsky4
that sound a bit better thanks.
Virginia Warren: I think SAHMs thinking of taking care if their children as their "job" is a dangerous mind-trap.
Sandra Dodd: GOOD POINT
Jaclyn Koehl: I do too Virginia!
Robin B.: ~ Don't let having a child turn you into a hermit and change who you are. ~
Robin B.: What if one's child doesn't want to be "along with you" when you go out and wants to be home? There are ways to "not change who you are" be sensitive to that need without becoming a hermit.
Jill Parmer: To that comment about not letting having a child change who you are. How could having a child not change you?
regan: alex, do you have links about helping a child with anxiety?
heathermbooth: I've changed a lot since having Austin. Even more so since we started unschooling.
Heather C: agree completely Robin B
Sandra Dodd: Some moms somehow convince themselves that it's not okay for them to help a child "do better" (whatever "better" might be, physically, socially, emotionally). Some seem to defend whatever a child does without regard to its effect on the child and others, and then they are resentful of OTHER people for not accommodating the child's behavior and the mom's frustration.
Marta Pires: Me too, Heather (Booth). I've changed a lot too in the past 3 or 4 years.
Jill Parmer: Same here, Heather.
Robin B.: Yes.
heathermbooth: I'm reading the stuff I posted on Always Learning when we first started unschooling. Man! I was a big ball of anxiety! I've changed since then. I'm not who I was, which was an incredibly controlling person.
Virginia Warren: Yes, Jill, I was thinking the same thing
Marta Pires: We aren't unschooling yet, but learning about unschooling and starting to live by some of the principles that unschooling involves has changed me.
Heather C: not change you, "change who you are" Jill
Virginia Warren: what's the difference?
AlexPolikowsky4
No Sorry Regan. The experience I have is with my children, me and watching other parents .
There are linkss to people that could help here:
http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy
There are linkss to people that could help here:
http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy
Jill Parmer: Still, Heather, having a child would change something in a person, I think.
Virginia Warren: How can it not?
Heather C: of course but if you stop doing what you enjoy rather than share it with your child, I don't think that is positve
Jill Parmer: I mean the surge of hormones, and that mama bear protective feeling, and then since unschooling, looking at the world through your kids' eyes and helping them along.
Marta Pires: Yes Jill!
Jill Parmer: I stopped sewing when my kids were little, I just did not have the time. Now I sew like crazy.
AlexPolikowsky4: Isn't who you are you?
Heather C: Just because "life" changes doesn't mean you change. And doesn't mean your interests change. There is a big difference
Heather C: Thank you Alex
AlexPolikowsky4: Heather C I have stopped doing lots of things I enjoy because I enjoy my kids more
Heather C: Thank you Alex
AlexPolikowsky4: Heather C I have stopped doing lots of things I enjoy because I enjoy my kids more
Sandra Dodd: There was a piece of word art (jpg, not text, so I couldn't cut and paste it even if I could find it) and it was about trick-or-treaters, and said if a child takes more than one candy, maybe it's because he's... [whatever] and a list of things kids might do at Halloween and why the host candy-give should be okay with it because the child was [label].
Sandra Dodd: I don't mind a bit if some kids want more candy, or they don't say "thanks" or whatever. I'm way into Halloween traditions.
Sandra Dodd: But the idea that parents would not coach their kids on how to politely trick-or-treat was uncool. Or one was that if a child seemed disappointed in the candy it might be because he had allergies.
Sandra Dodd: Yes! And it might be because his mom is expecting the world to cater to unseen allergies and to assume that bad behavior was a "condition" or "disorder."
Robin B.: ~ they are resentful of OTHER people for not accommodating the child's behavior and the mom's frustration. ~ Sandra, I was that mom, once upon a time. I needed more help in better understanding my kid and how to help her, but sometimes it came out as a whine "Why don't you all understand her/me?"
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes a parent builds an anxiety for a child who might not even have had one and then is martyrly about how hard it is to have a child with a disability.
heathermbooth: This was something I wrote on Always Learning years ago:
heathermbooth: "Tonight at dinner I told myself to just shut up, have a normal conversation and don't say "take a bite" or whatever else comes to mind to remind him to eat or that he hasn't had enough. Stupid I know. In my head I see his plate and the voice gets louder and louder and louder, "he's not eating! He's not eating! He's not eating!" And it really sucked because we were playing this awesome game he made up and all I could think was, "he's forgetting to eat." I must sound completely insane."
Robin B.: I was struggling. And no one was helping. I felt really alone. But I'd forgotten to actually ask for help.
Jill Parmer: And like I said (and Robin too) above. Finding joy in your kids' interests, helps so much , I think, with them really knowing you're helping them, and interested in them.
heathermbooth: Those thoughts don't even make sense to me now. I remember them though.
heathermbooth: Sorry. That was off topic. We're talking about "Me time" and that's about control.
Jill Parmer: Same, Alex, and I picked up new things with my kids. And now after 20 short years, I have all kinds of time to do things.
heathermbooth: I don't think I stopped doing things I enjoyed. I think that what I enjoy the most is spending time with Austin so some of the other things I did became less interesting.
Robin B.: Heather C., I'm wondering about what you're saying. Are you saying that mom should just go do what she does and the kids should just come with her? Because her interests are as important as her kids'?
regan: I often think about if I have "built an anxiety" for my child, but can't imagine how. My son went with me to a library and saw a juggler. In the audience was a baby with an oxygen tube in her nose. Now he won't go to ANY library because he might see that baby. I don't think I did that.
regan: I often think about if I have "built an anxiety" for my child, but can't imagine how. My son went with me to a library and saw a juggler. In the audience was a baby with an oxygen tube in her nose. Now he won't go to ANY library because he might see that baby. I don't think I did that.
AlexPolikowsky4
regan do you get anxious when your child is anxious? do you run to protect him from the baby?
I would have talked to the baby and I would have said out loud how cute that baby was and learned the baby's name. I would have shown my child how it was not something to be afraid of without pushing him to talk to the baby. I would not have "rescued "him and left the library because of it.
I would have talked to the baby and I would have said out loud how cute that baby was and learned the baby's name. I would have shown my child how it was not something to be afraid of without pushing him to talk to the baby. I would not have "rescued "him and left the library because of it.
AlexPolikowsky4: Yes HeatherBooth! My kids are more interesting! And as Jill said I picked up many things because of them. Who would have thought I would build a computer because of my kid's love for Video Games!
Sandra Dodd: I don't think it's off topic, Heather, because you were building up something between you and Austin, and you would have wanted to get away from "it" but part of the "it" was YOUR construction of what Austin was and needed and "made you" be/do. If parents are flailing and trying to control and getting frustrated about it, they might be wanting to get away from the child without ever really having been WITH the child.
Sandra Dodd: When they "get away" for their "me" time, they're still with their own frustrations and control thoughts.
Robin B.: I think Heather C. left, but was I misunderstanding what she was saying?
Sandra Dodd: I will quote something I've quoted before. It's seasonal, too. "You cannot run from your own bung hole." —Cornholio
AlexPolikowsky4: Cornholio????LOL
AlexPolikowsky4: Cornholio????LOL
Sandra Dodd
Debbie: No Robin, I had just typed "But like Robin B said, what if the child doesn't like to be where mom wants to be, doing what mom wants to do?"
Jill Parmer: Debbie, is that a question you are asking?
Debbie: No Jill, I was going to ask it of Heather C, but she's left.
Jill Parmer: ah, thanks
Jill Parmer: Debbie, is that a question you are asking?
Debbie: No Jill, I was going to ask it of Heather C, but she's left.
Jill Parmer: ah, thanks
Robin B.: I wasn't sure if it was "They're just going to have to come along, whether they enjoy what I'm doing or not" or "I'll just take my kids and make whatever I'm doing fun for *them*."
Robin B.: In either case, someone is changed.
regan: Alex, I did none of those things. We watched the whole show, left, and in the car, he said, "Did you see that baby?"
Virginia Warren: I'm confused, too, Robin. I can't figure out the difference between "changing you" and "changing who you are".
AlexPolikowsky4
Regan is he really anxious about the baby or did he really not enjoy those library programs?
My kid did not. They were bland and kids had to stay quite and not move around. Just not great for many little kids that need to move around
My kid did not. They were bland and kids had to stay quite and not move around. Just not great for many little kids that need to move around
Sandra Dodd: Some parents have hobbies they can't share with young children.
Sandra Dodd: Parents who don't want parenting to change them will screw it up.
Sandra Dodd: And poor parents who find no biochemical change come over them when they become parents... that's a danger.
Virginia Warren: You have to be with your kids to set off that chemical cascade.
Virginia Warren: You have to be with your kids to set off that chemical cascade.
regan: Alex, I think the juggler was fine. The anxiety is a pattern with him. Similarly, he saw a weird cover of People magazine at the grocery store, and now won't go to the grocery store.
Jill Parmer: Luke did end up coming along to lots of things as a baby and young kid, and his disposition worked for that. I would have had to make another plan if he was different.
Jill Parmer: And! I would have wanted! to make another plan.
Jill Parmer: Caught myself with that..."had to".
Jill Parmer: And! I would have wanted! to make another plan.
Jill Parmer: Caught myself with that..."had to".
Robin B.: Yes, Jill.
AlexPolikowsky4: Jill
Jill
Marta Pires:
Virginia Warren:
Virginia Warren: Regan, is it possible that he doesn't want to go to the grocery store for his own reasons, that he can't articulate, and is looking for s reason he can tell you that you'll accept?
Robin B.: Right!
Sandra Dodd: Show him magazines at your house then. Remind him they change the magazines every week (and People will sell out in a couple of days anyway).
AlexPolikowsky4: You could tell him you would not go in the check out lines that have magazines
Sandra Dodd: Don't explain to us as though it's normal that he won't go to the library or the store. Find ways to jolly him, to amuse him, to make him happy. Promise not to go to an aisle with magazines, or you could leave him in the cart and go and check the covers, or tell him "look at the candy so you don't see the magazines."
Misa: Kai is a very anxious child. I think it was always in his nature, but life things have certainly made that worse. We're working on making that better. But part of that is that I've learned I can send him straight into an anxiety spiral by also becoming anxious - even if it's being anxious about him being anxious - or by accomodating his anxieties too much. I can be understanding and make some accomodations, but that's not the same as making huge accomodations or empathizing too much. But that's what works for him.
Jill Parmer: And be aware if you are adding anxiety to the mix. Don't forget to breathe.
Debbie: Regan, I would focus on things that are happy for him, without fussing too much about the things he currently can't do happily. Fill him up with happy things. In time, it will help him be more flexible, less anxious.
Sandra Dodd: Don't let him trap you at home if you can find alternative ways to get him back out there. Maybe the library when there is no children's session. The minute they open, maybe. Or play outside when they're not even open yet, or hang around when they close, and talk about how empty it is when everyone goes home.
Sandra Dodd: I wouldn't wait for a performance day to go back.
Sandra Dodd: And magazines don't stay.
Sandra Dodd: I think be grateful that the National Enquirer isn't as it was when I was little—monsters and deformities and plane wrecks. Now it's all celebrity gossip, I think. But it used to be photos of car wrecks and grisly murder stories.
Sandra Dodd: You can't child-proof the world, but you can world-proof your child.
Robin B.: When she was quite young, Senna saw a house fire right after we'd left the ER (for my illness.) I think she associated fire with her worry for me. All wrapped up together. It didn't mean we avoided fire everywhere, but some things would freak her out, like fire dancers at Solstice or the Children's Festival. But fires in the fireplace or fire pit became been fine. Almost like small desensitizing steps over the years to disentangle those anxious thoughts.
AlexPolikowsky4
Misa you have some good points!
If the mom is empathizing too much:
"yeah that magazine was scary wasn't it?"
"did that baby make you uncomfortable?"
or any other way that is reinforcing that child should be worried/scared/anxious about it.
If the mom is empathizing too much:
"yeah that magazine was scary wasn't it?"
"did that baby make you uncomfortable?"
or any other way that is reinforcing that child should be worried/scared/anxious about it.
regan: Guys, *I* know that the magazines change every week. I know that Whole Foods doesn't even carry People magazine. I jollied him through Whole Foods last time, and he still is upset about going back. I am not "explaining it like it's normal". Where does that even come from.
regan: This line of questioning reminds me of how people used to think that mothers made children gay with too much love.
heathermbooth: Austin has a G-tube (tube that goes directly into his stomach to get nutrition). He's had it for 12 years now. We had our first experience with a kid who was scared by it instead of curious. His mom called and asked me not to give Austin a tube feeding in front of her son. That didn't help anyone in the situation feel calm.
Sandra Dodd: Regan, we've been around thousands of moms, so if we're generalizing and it doesn't apply, I'm sorry. We don't know everything about it. If it doesn't apply, great.
Sandra Dodd: I was about to say that sometimes mothers "empathize" and "support" in such ways that it reinforces and spotlights the fear.
Sandra Dodd: If you're not doing that, tell us THAT.
Sandra Dodd: Tell us what you ARE doing. You've told three stories of him being afraid of something. Is it about lack of time to yourself?
Robin B.: A parent can make a naturally anxious child worse by being anxious. I know, because I've done it. So I've learned to be the solid reassuring person, even if I didn't really feel that way.
AlexPolikowsky4: and that is why Sandra has that page I shared above! You may find some professional help from people that understand unschooling and won't tell you all you need to do it put your child in school
AlexPolikowsky4: We are also not saying you made your child anxious but sharing how sometimes we can enable that anxiety and fear by how we respond to it. That is a big difference from saying too much love turns your child gay!
Sandra Dodd: How does it touch the topic? If he won't go to the library or the store, can you go without him? Or does he not want you to go either?
AlexPolikowsky4: Yes Robin! Ditto!
heathermbooth: It would have been better to help him see that sometimes people need medical devices. In this situation it would have been better to ask us questions to better understand than to ask us not to do that in front of him. That reinforced his fear.
Virginia Warren: I have one daughter who prefers to be at home and one who loves to go out. Way back when I was still trying to get Lydia to go out more, she started saying dramatic things like "I'm afraid to go outside!" She wasn't, she just wanted me to stop bugging her.
Sandra Dodd: Virginia, I imagine (could be wrong) that you could have built that "afraid to go outside" into something more solid and worse, had you asked her for details or told all your friends she was afraid to go outside.
Virginia Warren: I think you're right, Sandra.
regan: It touches the topic because people were saying about how they mow the lawn for peaceful solitude, and bring their children with them to see friends, and I find I cannot.
regan: It touches the topic because people were saying about how they mow the lawn for peaceful solitude, and bring their children with them to see friends, and I find I cannot.
Sandra Dodd: But he's five, too. You can't leave him alone yet. Alex's kids are older.
regan: I am pretty sure I calmly and logically say, "Oh, she needs that tube to give her extra oxygen because she was born a little early."
Sandra Dodd: Most of my friends were childless and I quit hanging out with them when we had children, but now I hang out with some of them again now that my kids are grown.
regan: I say, "Oh, People magazine changes every week. This week it is showing a famous actor getting married."
heathermbooth: The next time the boy was around I gave him a heads up that we were about to do a feeding and invited him to stay and ask questions if he had any. He did. Not many. He said it kinda freaked him out so Austin and I talked to him about it and he seemed a little more comfortable. The mom called me later and went on to tell me how as a child she was scared of people with disabilities.
Sandra Dodd: A longer view can be helpful. It's hard to not want everything at once, and to feel like a child will be small forever.
AlexPolikowsky4
This Summer my daughter Gigi suddenly developed some separation anxiety. She was specially afraid of Thunder storms and me not being in the house with her. She is 8 years old and did not have issues prior to this. Maybe it was a coming of age in that she realize things can happen to people. I do not know.
I bike 3 times a week very early and leave the house before the sun is up.
She suddenly did not want me to go even if dad is home ( out in the farm doing chores).
I told her she was safe and of course if it was thundering I would not go ( not safe for me either !)
Unless she woke up when I was getting ready ( happened a couple times) I went.
I bike 3 times a week very early and leave the house before the sun is up.
She suddenly did not want me to go even if dad is home ( out in the farm doing chores).
I told her she was safe and of course if it was thundering I would not go ( not safe for me either !)
Unless she woke up when I was getting ready ( happened a couple times) I went.
Sandra Dodd: So, Heather Booth... maybe the mom's attitude was a bigger factor than she knew?
heathermbooth: It was.
heathermbooth: It was.
Misa: The other thing is that anxiety sometimes just has to be experienced. Kai loves to swim. It also makes him very anxious. Like... throwing up looking at swimming pools. Over time, that has decreased. But he had to experience it and understand that he'd get over it. (I checked - he DID really want to go swimming.)
AlexPolikowsky4: I said I do mow then lawn now but when my child was 5 I did not unless my mom or husband was with my child
unless my mom or husband was with my child
Sandra Dodd: Any other important points to make? Our two hours are done.
Jill Parmer: Sandra, can you post your "Kid time/Mom time" chart. That would be great for this topic. Here's the page though. http://sandradodd.com/howto/precisely
Sandra Dodd: Okay. I hadn't even thought of that chart, but this is probably a good place for it.
I hadn't even thought of that chart, but this is probably a good place for it.
Sandra Dodd: When Kirby was little, two or so, he really wanted to go to the store with me. He was crying or yelling. He was asking logically. I really just wanted to go by myself and didn't let him go. I remember it, and I regret it.
heathermbooth: Something else to consider is whether or not there are other big things happening in the house. Austin's anxiety was pretty intense when Monty (dad) was travelling four days a week.
heathermbooth: He eventually got to a point where he could handle some pretty intense fears he had. With time, with age, with patience. Here's one of the stories I have about Austin overcoming an anxiety he had: <A HREF="http://www.todaywasamazing.com/2014/10/overcoming-anxiety.html">Overcoming Anxiety</a>
Robin B.: Lovely, Heather.
Marta Pires: I remember this post of yours, Heather. I loved it.
AlexPolikowsky4: Me time comes in little bitty snippets when the kids are young and get longer and longer as they get older. Then soon the mom will be missing all the time they wanted to spend with you (mom)! Enjoy and be grateful for those times.!
Sandra Dodd: So remember that every day your child is older and someday will be grown and you can't get these days back.
Marta Pires: So true, Sandra.
Sandra Dodd: Marty came by for Halloween decorations. I just went with him to the storage shed and pulled out three boxes
Sandra Dodd: and looked around and found a fourth.
Sandra Dodd: Two said "Kirby's Halloween stuff"
Sandra Dodd: I told him he could keep them there or bring them back, helped him carry them to the car and didn't stall and talk.
Sandra Dodd: He was in a hurry.
Sandra Dodd: I helped him, but I would have liked more time.
Jaclyn Koehl:
Marta Pires:
Sandra Dodd: he's the busiest he's ever been in his life, this year.
Sandra Dodd: And there will be other times when we can sit and talk in a leisurely way, but not this month, or next.
Sandra Dodd: Although he's riding with us to Las Vegas for his wedding, and the bride will fly with her parents, and then the two of them will fly to Puerto Rico and back home.
Sandra Dodd: I could whine and tell him I want to hang out with him, but I'm not going to.
Sandra Dodd: And he knows if he needed to talk, I would.
Sandra Dodd: So even with 25-year-old kids, when the relationship is solid, people might not have the needs or aversions we assume and are used to.
Sandra Dodd: But it comes from the way we are when they're young. If they need us, they need us!
heathermbooth: That's how I feel at night Sandra. I could whine about being tired, or that I'm watching TV, but I'm not going to. I'm going to hang out and talk and when we're done and he goes back to doing what he's doing I can fall asleep then.
Sandra Dodd: My favorite Pam quote:
"As we get older and our kids grow up, we eventually come to realize that all the big things in our lives are really the direct result of how we've handled all the little things." —Pam Sorooshian, June 4, 2007
