Sandra Dodd left this message
Thursday, April 14. Let's talk about having a witness, real or imagined, to help you remember to be patient and sweet (or whatever you need reminders about). I have a new page with notes on that. I can add a link to the transcript later, if you all tell good stories that will help future unschoolers!
Maybe there are other thoughts or images you use to help you remember how you want to be. Come and share!
Sandra Dodd: Parvine, who is a regular chat participant, can't come this time, but has sent a note:
Begin quote:
Witness: I did not consciously have any one or specific person/ figure in mind over the years but what I did have and do have particularly in those challenging moments is Mindfulness practice. It is a life tool for me, not just remembered while with my children but with me throughout the day.
Situations and the kids needs changed day by day, week by week and certainly year by year but becoming aware of my inner feelings, swelling up reactions has helped me over the years learn to step back before saying anything or following any course of action.
Mental slow-down of swirling thoughts has been a key to creating more patience and understanding , learning to be with my kids and living life from a far more peaceful place. Feeling of inner peace and calm has become a sort of witness. —Parvine
Sandra Dodd: End quote.
Marta Venturini joined the chat 6 days ago
Serah joined the chat 6 days ago
Sandra Dodd joined the chat 6 days ago
Sandra Dodd: I'm in!
Serah: nice topic!
Sandra Dodd: I hope people didn't stay away because I said I might not be here.
Sandra Dodd: Recently we've had ten people by now.
Marta Venturini: Me too ;) Bruno is going to the vet all by himself, so I thought I needed to think of things other than worrying about our cat, so -- chat. :)
Serah: oh, you might not of come?
Sandra Dodd: Subscribe to the blog, Serah! :-)
Sandra Dodd: http://chatnotes-unschooling.blogspot.com
Serah: Marta!! how was your trip?
Sandra Dodd: I'm sitting at a restaurant with Holly and Keith.
Marta Venturini: It was awesome, Serah! We had so much fun! And Leiden is so gorgeous!
Sandra Dodd: We've come to Espanola to visit her and see where she's living, and I agreed to that before I remembered it would be chat day. :-)
Sandra Dodd: Compared to Lisbon, Leiden is pretty flat. There's a hill that their "castle" is on (a brick fort), and a hill that a cemetery is on.
Marta Venturini: Yes, very flat. And bicycles all over the place!
Serah: one day maybe I'll go to Leiden too....
Marta Venturini: You should, Serah! It's wonderful there!
Marta Venturini: Plus, the Dusseldorps live there and they're the BEST. :)
Serah: and that makes it a hotspot!
Marta Venturini: Totally ;)
Serah: just like Lisbon ;)
Marta Venturini: Hehehehe
Marta Venturini: I hope so ;)
Serah: all signed up, Sandra
Serah: how's the restaurant?
Robin B. joined the chat 6 days ago
Serah: I'm so happy you had a chance to go Marta!
AlexPolikowsky7 joined the chat 6 days ago
Marta Venturini: Me too, Serah, so happy.
Marta Venturini: It was a wonderful trip for so many reasons.
Robin B.: Nice note from Parvine.
AlexPolikowsky7: So happy for you to be there having fun with wonderful people!!
Sandra Dodd: It's okay. Odd..
Robin B.: I skimmed the odd parts, I think!
Marta Venturini: We're already back in Lisbon, Alex.
Robin B.: Glad you had fun, Marta!
Marta Venturini: We arrived yesterday.
Marta Venturini: Thank you Robin.
AlexPolikowsky7: Oh! Glad you all had a grand time!
Robin B.: In the brief hours we spent with Rippy and her family, Jenny and I had fun, too!
Marta Venturini: My mom almost had a panic attack because the airport in Amsterdam was closed the day before we had our flight, because of some kind of security threat. Luckily, we knew nothing about it and flew happily back to Lisbon.
Marta Venturini: Conchinha loved being with Gianluca and Gisele, Bruno loved hanging out with Graham and Rippy and I were being silly and giggling almost all the time. :)
Sandra Dodd: Should we stall off with this topic until next week with more people, y'think?
AlexPolikowsky7: Yes! Go enjoy your visit and we will visit this topic next week
Marta Venturini: Whatever works best for you Sandra is alright with me.
JennyC joined the chat
AlexPolikowsky7: Anyone has a question that needs to be addressed today?
Sandra Dodd: Everyone in here at the moment, I know in person. Nice. :-)
Marta Venturini: :)
Sandra Dodd: Maybe the topic is unneeded.
AlexPolikowsky7: Miss you my friend!! I so enjoy hanging out and chatting with you in person!
Sandra Dodd: Holly just told me a cool story.
Sandra Dodd: She said she was talking about us witnessing our own lives.
AlexPolikowsky7: See go be with her!
Sandra Dodd: And a woman said that she had just picked up a book and read this:
AlexPolikowsky7: Is she watching any shows right now?
Sandra Dodd: A man was told to go and kill a chicken, but to do it where no one else would see it.
Sandra Dodd: So he went and went and couldn't kill the chicken, because wherever he went, the chicken would have seen it.
JennyC: Oh, nice twist
Marta Venturini: :)
Sandra Dodd: And the next step from that is that even if no one saw it but him, he would have known.
JennyC: And the chicken would have known, but wouldn't have been able to tell the story
Sandra Dodd: It wasn't about telling. It was about being witnessed.
Serah: nice story :-)
Sandra Dodd: I don't think it's a tool everyone needs or wants, but I like it when it comes up, once in a while.
JennyC: Oh, I know, but it adds a bit to who the witness is. The chicken would have been a witness. Like a child would be.
Sandra Dodd: So maybe if I just say what I have to say today, it will be done.
Sandra Dodd: Good point, Jenny. When people are imagining witnesses, it will be good when they get to the point that their child is as good a witness as anyone would be.
(This image was added to the transcript later.)
AlexPolikowsky7: It certainly helps . One time I left with Gigi from a play date. She was 4 or 5 a s had a hard time leaving but we had been there hours and they were ready to make dinner.
AlexPolikowsky7: We had play dates many times a week with that family but this day Gigi was having hard time leaving.
Amber joined the chat
AlexPolikowsky7: We got in the car and she was crying a bit and I was listening and talk to her. I must have butt dialed this friend of mine , the same mom we were at, and the next days she told me she heard it all and that she was so impressed of how patient and nice o was to gigi
Sandra Dodd: Nice, Alex.
AlexPolikowsky7: So you never know who is witnessing!! Do your best!
Sandra Dodd: Holly says the story is in "Be Here Now." I have that book.
AlexPolikowsky7: Also your other children are watching it.
Amber: I like the topic!
Sandra Dodd: So maybe I can quote from there.
Sandra Dodd: So the closing statement came from her friend, and not the book.
AlexPolikowsky7: Oh cool
Sandra Dodd: This has happened a dozen times, or twenty. In an unschooling discussion I'll suggest that someone rephrase to use "learn" instead of "teach."
AlexPolikowsky7: I have also noticed that my husband gets his cues from how I am acting.
Amber: I have that book but haven't looked at it in years and years
Sandra Dodd: And then she'll say "Okay, I won't use that word in this discussion," or "Okay, I understand that you don't want me to use that word around you."
Sandra Dodd: Wrong! I don't really care one way or the other.
JennyC: Alex, for years, that was the forefront of my thoughts and actions, that my husband and older child were taking cues from me about how to treat the kid that screamed and cried a lot.
AlexPolikowsky7: If I am being patient and loving he follows my lead. Not that he is ever not. He does better than I do but still. He won't get aggravated by things and he can see from a different perspectice
Sandra Dodd: Assuming, though, that she wanted to become a better unschooler, what I hoped was that FIRST she would notice she was using it in the discussion. Then she could stop using it in ANY discussion, anywhere.
JennyC: It's almost like someone is willfully misunderstanding when they do that Sandra.
Sandra Dodd: After that, she could stop herself if she thinks it.
Sandra Dodd: And then it's done her some good. :-)
AlexPolikowsky7: The kids love dad more than me. They are always nice to dad.
Sandra Dodd: But for her to just fake it for my benefit is way wrong. :-)
Sandra Dodd: Yet I bet there's a lot of that, in the world.
Sandra Dodd: When one person (a relative, spouse, parent) expresses a wish that another person would be more.... honest, attentive, what?
Sandra Dodd: What things do people want of other people?
AlexPolikowsky7: Yes your words color your thoughts! Absolutely! You have called me on my words and it really makes a huge difference! I see my self being way more mindful about the words I use and even about saying things or not.
Sandra Dodd: Punctuality. Generosity...
JennyC: Consideration
Sandra Dodd: Then sometimes that other person fakes it.
AlexPolikowsky7: Respect
Sandra Dodd: They put on a little show in the presence of the parent or girlfriend or something.
Serah: back to the kids being a witness part... Sometimes when I am having a less then patient moment with my 2 year old one of the older boys will step in and help.
AlexPolikowsky7: That is very sweet Serah!! When Daniel was little he would urge me if Gigi was crying.
Amber: I've been trying to think about if there would be any reason why this wouldn't work for me, and I think it all arises from the difference between "shoulds" and "wants" - when there's something I think I "should" do then I am more resistant, and possibly annoyed by the idea of someone watching over me.
JennyC: I've been around enough unschoolers by now that I can spot that kind of show, right off.
Marta Venturini: Conchinha does that when I'm not being that patient with my cats, Serah. ;)
AlexPolikowsky7: But your kids have a bigger age difference so that helps!!!!
Sandra Dodd: It's "peacemaking" (or shushes them temporarily) but it can't effect the improvement their loved one intends.
Amber: So remembering the power of choice, of *wanting* to be a certain way, for me, is a key element in keeping in mind a witness
AlexPolikowsky7: Man I am sorry but I cannot speak English today! Neither I can soak Portuguese!
Serah: yeah, it does and I changed my parenting from when they were little and im happy to see that it paid off ;)
AlexPolikowsky7: I cannot find words and my sentences make no sense
Serah: Marta, that is really cool that Conchinha can do that already!
Marta Venturini: :)
AlexPolikowsky7: Amber deep breather and stopping to think and make a better choice. Once I got better and better at it it happens naturally most of the tjme.
Amber: Sandra, what about the "fake it til you make it" advice?
Sandra Dodd: I hadn't thought of it as clearly as Alex ans Marta are describing it, but thinking back, I remember stories of my kids being kinder and more patient than I was, with cats, or friends, each other, sometimes.
AlexPolikowsky7: Soak Portuguese?! WTH! See?
Sandra Dodd: Amber, I think I'm talking about REAL faking.
Serah: being conscious of my words has REALLY helped change my thoughts and my actions.
JennyC: I think it's better than being an ass, but kids can see through fakeness.
Amber: different intentions of faking, I get it
AlexPolikowsky7: Me too Serah.
AlexPolikowsky7: Yes Amber
Marta Venturini: Same here, Serah.
JennyC: I never wanted to be the reason my child cried.
Sandra Dodd: Without intention to change, or to continue the behavior after the witness is gone or forgotten, it's dishonesty.
Amber: Yes Alex, I sense more breathing, remembering to breathe, would be helpful to me. But I also maybe remember coming across an old chat transcript about using a mantra or phrase to also help.
JennyC: Kids can cry about frustrating things, or a fallen cookie or broken toy, but by gosh, I never wanted them to cry because of something I did.
AlexPolikowsky7: i was just telling a friend that I am so much better towards my husband because the Unschooling philosophy spilled over to our relationship and I treat him much nicer and I let him make his choices without ragging on him or treating him like an incompetent child
JennyC: So, that informed most of my parenting with little kid.
Sandra Dodd: It's not "fake it til you make it." It's hold your breath and act, until you're no longer witnessed.
Sandra Dodd: Fake it til you make it can work in some artistic situations—being in a choir and not knowing the music well yet. Being in the company, of a play, without a lead part—eventually figuring out where to be and how to be.
JennyC: And the biggest part, to me anyway, is when I messed up, I apologized for my own bad behavior.
Sandra Dodd: Getting better on the job. :-)
Serah: yeah, this thinking spills over to all other relationships.
Sandra Dodd: Fake it til you make it can work with curiosity (I think the recent example might have been, that Amber's remembering?) and creativity and patience.
AlexPolikowsky7: Jenny that is something I think some parents of wry young kids that are new to Unschooling can't see it clear. Some do t wa t the kid to be upset about anything and will do or say things, or let things happen, they make no sense.
Sandra Dodd: But in those cases, part of what helps is the feedback—almost as directly as old-time bio-feedback—that if you do it and others respond positively, it's easier to do it again.
AlexPolikowsky7: I know I was a bit confuse when my son was 2. I just did not want him upset! I wanted to fix everything even things I could not!
AlexPolikowsky7: Got to go move cows across the street!! Bye for now
Amber: bye Alex!!!!!
JennyC: My youngest cried all the time about so many things that I stopped taking it personally. I fixed what I knew I could and tried not to add to it, but then I learned how to not own that. That's helped me in lots of situations when people are upset.
Sandra Dodd: I missed the question about whether Holly was watching a korean drama. She lives without wifi. We've brought her a bag of VHS tapes and DVDs, because where she's living (kind of house-sitting, but paying $250 for a bedroom where nobody else is living right now, at San Juan Pueblo, north of Espanola.
Amber: When I was younger, in my 20's, my grandmother died - and while I don't really believe in life after death, I remember imagining what if she could see everything I do, now that she's dead. I then rejected the idea right away because it was embarrassing!
JennyC: I've never been great at diffusing tense situations. Partly it's because the upset of others is upsetting and I react to my own upset. I sometimes think parents who respond badly to children, can't find a way to not react personally.
Robin B.: Amber, many cultures view their ancestors as present, watching them. It's not unusual. :-)
Amber: Yes, I probably could have avoided some bad and embarrassing past choices by still keeping her in mind.
Robin B.: Jenny, I had a difficult time not feeling anxious when Senna was anxious. For me, it took a lot of conscious practice to be calm and helpful.
JennyC: An upset child, or angry child, or a child behaving in undesirable ways, elicits a kind of response within the parent that, without thinking, makes them do mean things. It's a pretty vicious cycle. In part, it's a memory response of their own childhood.
Robin B.: I'm not perfect at it, even now. But I'm also helping her to not take on others' anxiety by modelling calm.
Marta Venturini: Same here with Conchinha, Robin. I'm still learning how to deal with that anxiety.
JennyC: Yes, that's so important Robin
Robin B.: Breaking the cycle of over-empathizing!
Amber: I am not trying to reject this idea now - I am interested in thinking about how I could use it and avoid problems doing so. I am wondering if it's necessary to feel very close to, or know very well, the person who you're imagining as a witness. Not as a rule, but if it helps or makes it easier somehow.
JennyC: Ultimately, the parent wants the child to stop doing whatever uncomfortable thing they are doing.
Marta Venturini: I kept my calm on this trip because she was a bit nervous about the flights, so that was good. But I still get a bit lost in anxious thoughts regarding her health (I'm doing better now), mainly because I think I'll over-empathize with her and that will make me upset.
AlexPolikowsky7: Back! Sitting in the gator!
Marta Venturini: Now that I think about it, I also kept my calm because I knew Bruno was nervous too (he doesn't like to fly). :P
Robin B.: :-)
Sandra Dodd: I think I'm going to leave soon. We've eaten all we can eat.
JennyC: A childless friend of mine was bemoaning how women must always be the ones to take care of everyone's emotional health. She was saying it like it was a bad thing. And I was thinking, well, if it's true, what a great super power!
Sandra Dodd: Yes. :-)
JennyC: To impact positive change on the emotional health of those we love.
Marta Venturini: :)
Sandra Dodd: Keith's going to drink more coffee and we have some cake left. I'm still here.
Marta Venturini: Hehehehe
JennyC: Sip slowly
JennyC: I've taken care in grocery stores. It pains me to see kids crying in grocery stores and the mom ignores it and it gets louder and bigger
JennyC: If only that mom would stop for a moment a take care.
Sandra Dodd: Amber's grandmother and whether she sees or knows is interesting.
Sandra Dodd: When I was a kid and very much a Baptist, I had heard more than once that the Japanese worshipped their ancestors. And that the Chinese worshipped their ancestors.
JennyC: The other day there was a mom in a changing room being cranky with a little one and the kid was wimpering and getting louder and more upset because the mom was being short and snippy. And each time she did it, I started making big raspberry sounds. She couldn't see me, but she stopped. And then the whole dialog changed and she started acting compassionate about her tired and cranky kid.
Sandra Dodd: When I read about their religions, I didn't see any ancestor worship.
Amber: Nice Jenny!
JennyC: I didn't expect that.
Sandra Dodd: But now that I'm watching Korean dramas, I revisited Japanese religion, and re-read about shinto.
Sandra Dodd: So the deal is that their ancestry and their family honor is still alive in them.
Sandra Dodd: And it doesn't mean they worship themselves, either.
Sandra Dodd: The idea of "worship" was so stuck to Christianity, that they figure everyone is worshipping something/someone/God/false God.
Sandra Dodd: So this is very likely going to affect some people's ideas about having an imagined witness.
Sandra Dodd: Catholics have always been allowed lots of them.
Sandra Dodd: Any saint, any patron saint, any shrine or martyr is fair game for anyone.
Sandra Dodd: In Portugal, I learned about Saint Expedia. LOVED THAT.
Sandra Dodd: Like the Fed Ex of Saints.
Robin B.: Hawaiians honor their ancestors, but don't worship them. Some of that is Hawaiian and the mixture of Japanese and Chinese influence.
Marta Venturini: :)
JennyC: In bathrooms with the really loud air dyers, I've used those to drown out meanness. Kid cries, parent starts in with mean voice.... loud dryer. And I do that repeatedly. Maybe I'm annoying like that..... anyway, the kids ALWAYS notice.
Robin B.: The Fed Ex of Saints!
Robin B.: Jenny, sometimes I make faces or smile at cranky kids. Sometimes the parent sees and is nicer.
JennyC: I do that also.
Amber: saint expeditus? I tried googling "saint expedia" and only got travel sites :)
Robin B.: I did have a bad moment when at the museum in ABQ with Sandra. A mom was shaming her daughter about using the toilet (or something like that) and I was in tears. I went out to tell Sandra and she went in and said or did something soothing for the child or helpful for the mother. I just couldn't get myself together that day.
JennyC: Robin got me a number sticker that says, "look busy, Jesus is watching". That makes the point of faking it to make it :)
JennyC: Bumper, not number
Sandra Dodd: But they do—in Korea and Japan, anyway—talk to their ancestors. The author of the book on shinto interviewed lots of people and I forgot the stats, but most, even young people, had spoken aloud to dead relatives.
Robin B.: What I also have done is tell parents how awesome they are, when I see such a thing in public. Not often enough....
Robin B.: So I'm a happy, positive witness, too!
Amber: :)
JennyC: I've given lots of smiles and nods to moms holding it together with a crew of kids that are about to lose it.
JennyC: If I'm in line at a store, I'll let someone with a bunch of kids go ahead of me because long waits with little ones are hard sometimes.
JennyC: I've had many older men do that for me, when I had little kids. Funny that it was never older women.
Sandra Dodd: Those are nice ideas, Jenny. :-)
Sandra Dodd: Recently Keith and I were in a restaurant and saw another family being really sweet with a three or four year old boy. When we were leaving I said that it was nice to see someone be so nice to a little boy.
Sandra Dodd: Keith and Holly are discussing the tip, so I lasted a long time. I guess I should go. :-)
JennyC: Have a lively day with your sweet family!
Sandra Dodd: But about Amber's grandmother and Korea and Japan... I think the idea is not to do things that would shame your ancestors or your family. Your "team.
Sandra Dodd: "
Marta Venturini: ;)
JennyC: I meant to say lovely
Sandra Dodd: (clan, village...)
Marta Venturini: Thanks for coming to the chat in the middle of your happily busy day, Sandra.
Sandra Dodd: Thanks for coming, folks. What about another topic for next week?
Sandra Dodd: Anyone want to call one?
Sandra Dodd: No?
Marta Venturini: I can't think of one right now...
Amber: thinking thinking!
JennyC: I can't think of anything at the moment
Marta Venturini: (too nervous about my sweet cat...)
Sandra Dodd: I hope your cat is comfortable.
Sandra Dodd: I'll check back to see if you've all decided on another topic, later. :-)
Marta Venturini: I hope so too. Thank you, Sandra.
Serah: any topic is good
