Wednesday, September 18, 2013

Clarity


Laura Z joined the chat 
Laura Z: Hey Bea. 
Laura Z: We're early.

Capn Franko joined the chat 
Capn Franko: Good morning.

Laura Z: Afternoon! 

Marta Pires joined the chat 

Jill Parmer joined the chat 

Bárbara Correia joined the chat 

BeaMantovani: Hello!
BeaMantovani: Today I might even be able to participate in the chat 

Capn Franko: Even when I'm here I tend to not articipate! (wink)

Sandra Dodd joined the chat
Sandra Dodd: articipation... articipation is making me wait...
Sandra Dodd: I have not forgotten. I have two "cleanup on aisle RadicalUnshoolingInfo!" matters to attend to.

Capn Franko: ...keepin' me wa-ay-ay-ay-aytin'

BeaMantovani: To pass the time, let me make an announcement: Today I pledged allegiance to the queen. 

Shallay joined the chat 

Jill Parmer: Bea, did you become a new citizen?

Shallay: keep calm carry on

BeaMantovani: Yes, I'm Canadian now  (also still French)

Jill Parmer: Well congratulations, you sound excited!

Capn Franko: Congratulations, Bea!

BeaMantovani: Yes, I am, oddly. I didn't think it was a big deal, but I'm still kind of excited, now that it's done. Might be the lack of sleep, I had to wake up early this morning 
BeaMantovani: thanks

AlexPolikowsky2 joined the chat 

Capn Franko: Alex, did you send in your clone?

Laura Z: Hey Alex check out the video I posted from Youtube - Argentine movie 9 Reinas.

AlexPolikowsky2: Congrats Bea!!

BeaMantovani: thanks 

AlexPolikowsky2: Doing this from my phone!
AlexPolikowsky2: Send me a message Laura because I am not home!

Sandra Dodd: I'm here! Tadaaa!

Laura Z: I'll tag you on FB 

Sandra Dodd: I pledge allegiance
Sandra Dodd: To the queen
Sandra Dodd: of the united states of America and to the republic for which [she?
Sandra Dodd: .... oh it all fell apart.
Sandra Dodd: Do you know the song, Bea? O Canada?
Sandra Dodd: Contractually, that song cheats.
Sandra Dodd: Morally, that song lies.
Sandra Dodd: Musically, that song is perfect.

BeaMantovani: I sang it today, right after I pledged allegiance to the Queen of Canada 

Sandra Dodd: French or English?

BeaMantovani: but I probably sang out of tune, and didn't pay attention to the words 
BeaMantovani: bilingual version, actually 

Sandra Dodd: I was in a train in wales and there was a long set of safety instructions in Welsh. And in English it said in case of emergency, break glass, and there was an axe in there. That was not "bilingual."
Sandra Dodd: That was "If you read Welsh, we have much safety information for you. If you do not read Welsh, whatever."

BeaMantovani: lol, yeah, the song was not exactly bilingual either. The beginning was in French, and the last two verse in English

AlexPolikowsky2: Lol

Sandra Dodd: We have over 10 (+) people here so we could start the topic!
Sandra Dodd: Clarity. What's clear and what's... murky, muddy, poopy, tainted, dangerous, suspicious.... (some other alternatives to clarity?)
Sandra Dodd: dishonest
Sandra Dodd: -----plagiarized------ (rough week(s) for me, with plagiarism)
Sandra Dodd: obfuscational
Sandra Dodd: wishy-washy
Sandra Dodd: The first verse in English doesn't say the same things the first verse in French does. That contributes to a divided nation.

Capn Franko: Howzabout discussion so abstract as to be essentially meaningless?

Sandra Dodd: Does anyone else what to propose an opposite-of-clear word?
Sandra Dodd: So indirect or so airy-fairy?

Marta Pires: Confusing?

Sandra Dodd: So "try to please everybody"?

BeaMantovani: the two songs don't say exactly the same thing, actually. not just the first verse.

Capn Franko: Yeah. I'm thinking of Nicholas Connault on Radical Unschooling Info.

AlexPolikowsky2: Yes Frank I see that a lot in some places and quotes from some people. Beautiful words and that is all.

BeaMantovani: He's French and he's in Australia, and he annoys me 

AlexPolikowsky2: 

Jill Parmer: Privately, I call it word salad, when someone throws around a bunch of words in different ways and is trying to be enlightened and airy fairy.

Capn Franko: So there! (grin)
Capn Franko: I call it intellectual masturbation.

Shallay: hmm stroking themselves

AlexPolikowsky2: World Salad?? Hey I love salad, Jill!

LydiaKoltai left this message 
foggy or fuzzy

Jill Parmer: Not worLd salad. Word salad.

AlexPolikowsky2: Join in Lydia.

BeaMantovani: I think the French invented intellectual masturbation 
BeaMantovani: I know a lot of French people like that.

Shallay: Makes them feel good but doesn't really do anything for anyone else...

Capn Franko: Shallay, FTW!
Capn Franko: Bea, I look to my mentors, the Jesuits, for excellent syllogisms and tautologies.

Jill Parmer: Intellectual masturbastion doesn't seem intellectual, it seems...dumbness trying for intellect.

Capn Franko: Not fuzzy, quite crisp, but essentially meaningless.

Jill Parmer: Is it smart or intellectual to use big words put together in such ways that your listeners/audience don't understand?

LydiaKoltai left this message 2 days ago:
sometimes my thoughts are a bit fuzzy and unclear, particularly if I am anxious about something

Sandra Dodd: Yes. It is intellectual.
Sandra Dodd: Lydia, click "join chat" or enter chat.

LydiaKoltai joined the chat

Serah joined the chat

LydiaKoltai: ok, got it.

Capn Franko: Possibly intellectual but useless to those who don't share your lexicon.


Serah: Hi everyone.

BeaMantovani: I think intellectual as opposed to practical. It's all theory but no practical applications.

Sandra Dodd: Quite often useless to those who do understand.

BeaMantovani: a lot of the time

Andrea joined the chat
Andrea: Hello everyone!
Andrea: Jill--sometimes I wonder if they even know what they are saying with all those big words.

Sandra Dodd: But especially when we're dealing with parents in a biological relationship to children and spouses/partners, we're not dealing with "intellectual" issues. We're dealing with hearth, home, mother, water—the ancient concepts.

Jill Parmer: Me too, Andrea. I wish I could be inside their head watching the thought process.

Heather Booth joined the chat

Andrea: I haven't been to chat in a long while. Are we still working through the Big Book? If so, what page?

Jill Parmer: Page 235. Clarity.

Capn Franko: Einstein used to say (paraphrased): If you can't explain it simply, you don't really understand it.

Sandra Dodd: Thanks, Jill. I was looking.

Andrea: Thanks!

Sandra Dodd: I'm all for that, Frank.

Celeste joined the chat

Sandra Dodd: There was an online zine for which I wrote, regularly, and well. 
Sandra Dodd: The editor wanted to "up" the "reading level" and make it sound more like a textbook, more like a college paper, and I said no, I'm writing in my voice, leave it alone.
Sandra Dodd: She wanted to have a consistency of tone and "level." I said then write the whole thing yourself, because the point of having several authors is to have different voices.
Sandra Dodd: The "jargon" we do use for unschooling is one very old word: strew
Sandra Dodd: Maybe that's it. 
Sandra Dodd: And we're using that word as it was intended, thought the practice is not to scatter things, but place a thing or two as "conversation pieces," as something to be discovered.
Sandra Dodd: Monkey platter.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe jargon, but the term came from a particular trip to the zoo, years ago, and the story was told, and the term was adopted and used on a page, and there it lives.
Sandra Dodd: "Unschooling" is jargon, but we inherited it.
Sandra Dodd: "Radical Unschooling" isn't jargon. It's plain English, just waiting for people to wonder which "radical," and it's "radius, from the root."
Sandra Dodd: Outside those few oft-discussed words, we're using plain English, easy English, clear, normal English.

Shallay: Language changes, like the new definition of literally is very figurative.

Jill Parmer: I'm missing a piece...."unschooling" is jargon, but "radical unschooling" is not jargon?

Kim_AR joined the chat 

Shallay: so should our use of language change the definition?

Sandra Dodd: Unschooling is a made up word, sort of (made up by the rules, but made up by more than one person and used more than one way)

Andrea: Oh my! I hadn't fully thought about the multiple definitions of radical before. Duh. Other unschoolers I know are obviously using different definitions of the word than I am...

Sandra Dodd: But once we have our internal accepted "normal" definition of unschooling," then to add an adjective is normal English.

Jill Parmer: Ah. Thank you.

Capn Franko: Usage often changes the definition of words or phrases.

Sandra Dodd: Shallay, we're not changing definitions.
Sandra Dodd: Language changes, but we're not talking about that now.

Laura Z joined the chat 

Kim_AR: My son wrote his first college English paper today. On unschooling.
Kim_AR: It was to be autobiographical. Why he is in college and his goals/plans.

Sandra Dodd: Within any language there are "sayings" and idiomatic expressions (there's a hoity phrase, meaning a lump of words that go together and have been stuck that way for a long time)
Sandra Dodd: Nice, Kim.

Shallay: franko - so then whatever is most common becomes accepted

Sandra Dodd: When people come to a discussion and they're using expressions passed down for 50 years or more, it's sometimes an indication that they are not so much thinking clearly and then writing as they are channelling a voice from their heads.
Sandra Dodd: Shallay, there are words with multiple definitions and one doesn't crowd out the others.

Capn Franko: That's the tendency. "On accident" used to be incorrect. Now it's acceptable. Usage.

Sandra Dodd: When I was a kid we were corrected if we said "really" or "a lot."
Sandra Dodd: When I was a kid we were corrected if we said "really" or "a lot."

Capn Franko: What I see a lot of in unschooling discussions lately is people coming to a discussion with their own new, jargonized version of the meaning of a common word - "freedom" comes to mind.

Shallay: urban dictionary is fun, phrases have whole new meanings

Serah left the chat 

Sandra Dodd: There's a 14th century Letter of Patent that uses the word "really" two or three times in just about 100 words. One is that the King as "really ennobled" the named Lord whatever. And it could have meant given him property (where "real estate" and "Really!?" met), but clearly the word was old. 
Sandra Dodd: Shallay did you see a message I sent early? I don't see where messages show here. I tried, anyway.

Laura Z: Franko or they use the term without thinking what it really means because they heard it and it sounds cool.

Shallay: i get corrected when i say "like" because i Like say it a lot!

Sandra Dodd: "Freedom" is one, Frank, and "authenticity" is another.

Capn Franko: Yes, Laura. Alternate understanding or misunderstanding of a word which has a common, accepted usage but which they using to mean something different.
Capn Franko: I know how much you like "authenticity" (grin)

Laura Z: Authentic self.

Andrea: It seems that many are using a different definition of radical than from the root/source.

Sandra Dodd: It implies other people are fakes or clones.

Andrea: Using "extreme" instead.

Jill Parmer: I want to see my Authentic self and Non-Authentic self duel. 

Sandra Dodd: Some are, Andrea. When they try to defend that here or in a discussion I'm running, I can show them older references to older (more authentic) uses of the phrase. 

Andrea: and revolutionary
Andrea: 

Sandra Dodd: Yes. It's not helpful.

Laura Z: 

Sandra Dodd: From page 235: If Howard Gardner is right, maybe some people won't be able to do this any better than I could swim the Mississippi and play soccer on the other side. But just as some people value athletes, I value people's careful use of language.
Sandra Dodd: "This" was to think carefully and express oneself in one's own words.
Sandra Dodd: Writing helps! Practice helps.

Sylvia Woodman joined the chat 

Sandra Dodd: Accepting when people tweak or clarify or point at the rough parts of what you've written helps.

Sylvia Woodman: Hello!

Jill Parmer: I like this in the book. "Online discussions of natural learning and parenting give people a serious opportunity to practice communicating clearly and carefully." This idea when I was new to unschooling was so exciting to me. I don't feel I'm all that great with words and language. This made me so much more aware. I felt like I had new light to think about and analyze ideas. It made me look deeper what choices I wanted to make.

Sandra Dodd: Hi, Sylvia.
Sandra Dodd: I've seen lots of people become much better writers because when they were unclear others asked questions, or misunderstood.

Sylvia Woodman: Reading Always Learning and The Radical Unschooling Info page has helped me be a better, clearer writing and by extension better thinker.

Shallay: I like hearing what different people say about the same thing helps me to clarify its meaning - leads to me understanding.

Sylvia Woodman: *writer

Laura Z: Yes, Jill it's helped me tremendously as well. I'm still improving.

Andrea: True, Jill and Laura!

Marta Pires: Reading on the Always Learning list and on Radical Unschooling Info and seeing how much you valued clarity, I started to understand why. As I read more and more discussions, I started to be able to see why clarity was so important -- bottom line is, if people weren't clear, I got confused.  So I began doing it myself, too and I think it has helped me immensely.

Sandra Dodd: In school, they don't teach real-time writing. They don't teach REAL writing, generally speaking. Reports aren't real reports, they're practice, for someone who doesn't really want the information.

Andrea: Having local people ask me questions has helped me be more clear in writing. I started a facebook group for socializing, but since I "own" the group, I get to field questions about unschooling.

Sandra Dodd: The purpose of the discussions is not for writing practice, but they're a good place to get better by writing, for real, about current, immediate things that the audience can actually put into practice, or consider and reject, but real people will think about those words.

Laura Z: Plus they don't necessarily want you to think just regurgitate what they think is important .

Sandra Dodd: That's why I like to keep it on topic. Because when someone goes on and on and off, some others leave the discussion. And it wasn't worth me providing a platform for someone to... What was the term up above? Self-soothe, self-amuse?

Sylvia Woodman: The other advantage of writing is that they deepen my own understanding. I think Alex P. wrote something to that effect a couple of days ago.

Sandra Dodd: They who, Laura? People on Andrea's list or teachers in school?
Sandra Dodd: (Maybe both?)

Sylvia Woodman: Someone kept taking all the responses personally but actually the responses were more about the people responding after a while.

Laura Z: Sorry tricky writing on iPad. They teachers

Andrea: Very true, Sylvia. I get asked a lot of questions about our state law. I understand it a lot better now than I did five years ago.

Sandra Dodd: Jill quoted part of the next paragraph in the book. I have cut and paste capability. Here's the full paragraph.
Sandra Dodd: Online discussions of natural learning and parenting give people a serious opportunity to practice communicating clearly and carefully. For some people, an unschooling discussion will be their first "real writing"—the first time they've written real things for real people, rather than practice things for teachers. Those who stick with it or who have a native talent for it will find themselves getting direct and immediate feedback from other parents who have taken the ideas or examples or stories and used them to change their own real children's lives, and that is bigtime.

Jill Parmer: I just thought that even though my kids don't write many things down. They have really good analyzing abilities, that I think comes from talking through ideas. And that if and when they do write, I'll bet it'll be good. Waaaay better than me and the uninteresting writing I did in school.

Sandra Dodd: I saw that in my kids, Jill.
Sandra Dodd: Years and years ago Keith asked me why I let the kids argue with me.
Sandra Dodd: He would not have argued with his mom about anything. Just let her talk, and then sneak around.
Sandra Dodd: "Why do you let them argue?" he said.
Sandra Dodd: I told him I figured if they could win an argument with me, they could win an argument with anybody.

Marta Pires: 

Sandra Dodd: I was willing to let them try. I was also willing to spot them for age, and if a six year old makes a great point, there it is.
Sandra Dodd: I acknowledge that if he were ten years older he wouldn't have needed the handicap. 

Andrea: 

Sandra Dodd: I don't mind people arguing about unschooling, if they do it within the bounds of the discussion. Jumping to "you guys SUCK" isn't arguing.

AlexPolikowsky3 joined the chat 
AlexPolikowsky3: Hi back at home.

Sandra Dodd: When my kids were old enough to write for real, they.... wrote. For real.  They might have needed proofreading but lots of published authors to, too.

Andrea: I notified an author about a couple of errors in her book. She told me that it was the editor's job, not her responsibility.

AlexPolikowsky3: And some are famous and make money despite poor grammar or what is considered good writing technics.

Jill Parmer: The latest example here is Luke creating a new Dungeons and Dragons (role playing) character, and he asked for my help. As we've been working through ideas for his character, he said that I was such a great mom for doing this with him. By simply doing things that I think unschooling requires of me, he was SO appreciative. World of Warcraft helped me a lot. Glad I played all those years with my kids.

Sylvia Woodman: Wow Andrea! That sure says a lot about that author!

Marta Pires: So sweet, Jill.

Sandra Dodd: The first report Kirby ever wrote, he was 14 and it was an absolute REAL report. He wrote down how much Pokemon tournament inventory they had (forms, cards, pins, whatever all) and projected how long the supply of each would last based on the number of people who had entered the tournaments over the past dozen or so months, and upcoming factors that might cause more or fewer people to attend.
Sandra Dodd: The shop owners actually needed the information, and used it to order supplies.

Andrea: Yes, I was pretty shocked by the response.

Sandra Dodd: He played text-based games, and wrote with immediate effect (and artistry, sometimes).

Jill Parmer: Wow. So much more valuable than writing something a kid is uninterested in, in English class.

Sandra Dodd: Andrea, I'd think she would have said at least "oops, thanks, I'll send this to the publisher."

BeaMantovani: people write "you guys suck" because they still have their feelings hurt from school, where making a mistake was not rewarded.

AlexPolikowsky3: A friend just started school for a nursing career at over 40 and is having classes on how to do a medical report. Thing is the classes are more about other stuff. SHe is like : Just show me how to to a medical report!

Sandra Dodd: And his first "realtime" handwriting was in karate belt tests, sitting next to the sensei, scoring and commenting on karate students. His spelling and writing weren't great on those.

AlexPolikowsky3: I think so too Bea.

Sandra Dodd: But his ideas were clear. 
Sandra Dodd: Some authors are writing because someone offered them money to write a sort of thing by a certain date.

Marta Pires: And maybe because of this too, Bea: -=-Weeding out terminology we would prefer not to mean improves thinking. Proofreading before posting, to see what others will see, is sometimes very difficult. Discussing our children can come from a place of emotion, but if one can accept that others can see things she missed, the tangled threads of childhood hurts and fears can begin to be untangled so that parenting can come from thoughtful action rather than murky reaction.-=- (lifted from Sandra's clarity page)
BeaMantovani: Once Pam wrote about one of her daughters being excited to take a community college English class because her essays would be critiqued for free, and I think that's how it should be viewed too, writing on unschooling lists, but people with school baggage see it as being humiliated because they made a mistake and were told so in front of the whole class

Andrea: I love when the kids are figuring out how to spell/write. They use some awesome combinations to communicate.

AlexPolikowsky3: That is more important that perfect grammar

Jill Parmer: Yeah, I think so, Bea, and what is the way around that? When I write, I try to be succint (aware of people's time) and straight. And then I watch an emotional mess happen. 

Laura Z: I was thinking about report writing Alex and wondering if perhaps e issue isn't so much the report writing but lack of clarity in conveying information. Does it really take a semester to understand how to write a report, some never get it.

AlexPolikowsky3: Creative spelling! I love it Andrea. As in LOLcats
AlexPolikowsky3: Me too Jill but some take it as an "attack" when you are direct

Shallay: friends daughter writes stories - with practice you can read it because it is phonetic

Andrea: One of my girls uses "r" all the time for "are" and because of our dialect, she uses it for "our", too.

BeaMantovani: I think it's a personality thing maybe, too. I have a hard time being corrected, too. I feel embarrassed. I've learned to just let it sit and not reply. And think carefully before I post. (probably why I don't post so much, usually: still afraid of making a mistake.)

Shallay: the idea comes across, and its a nice story

AlexPolikowsky3: That is exactly what we were talking about Laura. She is homeschooling mom. Not unschooler but very very relaxed.

Andrea: Were you corrected/shamed a lot as a child Bea
Andrea: I was and I have a hard time being corrected sometimes. When I first started coming to chats, I worked hard to remember that Sandra's not my mother
Andrea: 

AlexPolikowsky3: Bea I do too. I do OK on the unschooling discussions list. My issue is that I get mad at myself. I kind of expect better from me so I get upset, not with others, but with myself

BeaMantovani: French school is very much a shame game. all the grades are always told in front of the whole class, and people get made fun of a lot. I was a good student, though, but I was sensitive (still am)

Andrea: And realizing that has been good for my marriage as well...remembering that my DH has positive intent and isn't angry with me.

Capn Franko: I'm a perfectionist. *I* rag myself when I;m in error and if someone else sees it first - ICK! FAILURE! ACK!

AlexPolikowsky3: Yep Frank. Not in everything but yeah I hear you.
AlexPolikowsky3: My son is like that. He is the perfectionist.

Shallay: marta - "be untangled so that parenting can come from thoughtful action rather than murky reaction" is my favorite part

Marta Pires: 

Shallay: same with my daughter - very nervous about failure

Capn Franko: I've been working on that. Still working on it.

Sandra Dodd: Some people react from a raw place, probably, in discussions like this because it IS writing that gets (sort of) critiqued—not about grammar or composition, but about whether it was helpful
Sandra Dodd: So again, it's a "real writing" think that school didn't really cover.
Sandra Dodd: In school when I was a kid the realtime writing was passing notes.
Sandra Dodd: Probably still, but now it's also texting.

Shallay: I had to clear my own thoughts too of past "failure is so wrong"

Sandra Dodd: Passing notes was honest and actual communication, whereas anwering the questions at the end of the chapter in a science or history textbook was just punitive busywork.
Sandra Dodd: It was probably practice for writing, too, but not for an audience that gave a damn.
Sandra Dodd: But here comes something like Always Learning.
Sandra Dodd: People ask questions that affect the lives of more than one person, and they get responses from more than one person (if they're lucky), and for free. Real people who know the topic.
Sandra Dodd: They can ask more questions, unlike with a magazine article or a book.

AlexPolikowsky3: The author of Horrible Stories said in an interview that kids nowadays do write. That all the messaging and texting is real writing. I can find the interview if you want it

Sandra Dodd: They can clarify. They can show their mettle. (What is that quote from Lord of the Rings? Sam to Faramir, maybe?)
Sandra Dodd: I've seen it, Alex. We all know. 

Shallay: yes alex i am interested

Sandra Dodd: Facebook and MySpace are real writing, too. MySpace was real html coding. Holly learned a TON of cool stuff making MySpace pages for her friends.

Andrea: I am constantly amazed by how my kids are doing real writing on Minecraft text chat while Skyping and actively playing the game. Sometimes they are writing Skype messages, too.

Sandra Dodd: But because people come in an emotional state to some of these activities, there can be oddity, too. Jill just got a nasty response from someone whose post she returned on Radical Unschooling Info.
Sandra Dodd: Someone sent some piece of art (a jpeg) with mushy quotes about kindness. I rejected it without writing to her, but Jill wrote and explained (and then deleted it though it was already gone).
Sandra Dodd: Jill didn't have to do that. I didn't have to create and maintain the facebook page. There was no "have to." It was voluntary activity for a clear purpose.
Sandra Dodd: What Jill wrote was sweet.

BeaMantovani: my daughters can't read or write yet, but I'm amazed at how well they can communicate via skype with their friends when they play minecraft. I think that's also practice for writing.

Shallay: andrea - my kids are learning to write small words on minecraft text chat
Shallay: its reading & writing

Andrea: My kids have learned a ton of reading and writing from Minecraft, but the idea that they're doing three things at once, all of them well, astounds me!

Jill Parmer: Sandra, are you looking for that quote from Lord of the Rings? I'd like to see it if it's not too hard to find.

Shallay: i am horrible at multi doing

Laura Z joined the chat

Sandra Dodd: Yes. And discussing things and explaining things leads to clearer writing when they're older, too. Not all of "writing" is pen on paper, or letters out of a printer or in a text box.
Sandra Dodd: Jill, I'll look in a bit.
Sandra Dodd: When people ask about writing, they're asking about LOTS of things.
Sandra Dodd: But clarity applies to thought, and speech, and perception, and writing.

AlexPolikowsky3: Andrea Gigi said to what you wrote:

Sandra Dodd: Writing, for us, often, because of this format, and yahoogroups, and facebook.

AlexPolikowsky3: "That is basically what I learned"

Jill Parmer: Yes that is astounding...all that communicating without being able to read and write very well. It's exciting and really made me wonder about people and teachers saying, well they have to know how to read and write to do....[whatever].

Sandra Dodd: But before the writing gets sent, the author has an opportunity to think, and even speak it aloud or ask an opinion of someone in the room, and to double-check perceptions, and to proofread writing.

Marta Pires: I remember when I first started reading on the Always Learning list (and later, on your facebook page, Sandra) that one of the things that kept me there was this group of people (later, I found out they were the list's and group's moderators) that would keep the discussions on topic and help clarify things that weren't clear for me yet. Thank you Sandra and all of the other moderators that do this so generously.

Sandra Dodd: Unfortunately, some people don't do any of that and they find themselves not being as clear as they might have been!
Sandra Dodd: The last part from the book (and then I'll look for the Faramir bit):J
Sandra Dodd: "So, clearly, we're all onto something touching on people's souls and psyches, on their beliefs and philosophies. You don't see that every day!"

Jill Parmer: Yes, no rush on the Lord of the Rings quote. I can get it later from you.

Sandra Dodd: They botch it in the movie. Movie quots are easier to find than book quotes these days.

Andrea: I think no one has told them that they can't or shouldn't do it, so they jump right in!
Andrea: (multi-tasking)

Shallay: lol that's why they do it so easily

Laura Z: Caitlyn has gotten pretty good at reading basic things and even though she can't write very well yet, she was still able to help a dad on minecraft the other day when she told him how to spell something.

Jill Parmer: I think that (multi tasking) is needed in those games, so a player who wants to play better gets proficient.

Andrea: That's awesome, Laura.

Jill Parmer: So cool, Laura.

Laura Z: a d even without writing, she's getting good at clarifying things at not even 7. She is going to be helping a friends who is brand new to Minecraft by explaining the basics via Skype and screensharing.

AlexPolikowsky3: Gigi is learning to read , she is actually reading but still does not know every word, because of Minecraft and Skyping friends.
AlexPolikowsky3: Yes Laura! And the Skyping friends help each other spell and all. It is sweet!

Andrea: i love hear ing the voices via Skype

Jill Parmer: I have a question about clarity, in words or intuition or a sense. Being not all that great at language and words, I might not be able to explain something well or succintly. But I have a sense about something. So I might make choices about something I can't explain well. Is clarity all about words?

Laura Z: Exactly Alex!

Andrea: Brooke also Alex

Shallay: jill - like feelings as well? Getting how you feel about something clear?

Jill Parmer: Luke has told the story of when reading clicked for him. He was in Stranglethorn Vale, at Grom'gol base camp, getting a quest from the troll head-hunter. I was in the kitchen for a moment and ready to come back and read for him. 

Sandra Dodd: There's clarity in musical tone. That's the example on that page http://sandradodd.com/clarity
Sandra Dodd: I think there's clarity of color and of light.
Sandra Dodd: Clarity in sports and music—when you really know what needs to happen next and can hear all around you and see all around you.

Jill Parmer: In my example my feelings are clear, it's something I like or don't like; trust or don't trust.

Sandra Dodd: "Flow" perhaps, comes with clarity.
Sandra Dodd: When you get the slow motion moment, like when a car is spinning on ice and your adrenaline makes your brain go so fast that it seems that the car is moving slowly?

Andrea: i think i know what you mean, jill

Sandra Dodd: Emotional clarity maybe.

Andrea: the baby is trying to type though..

Sandra Dodd: I meant to quote the response someone sent to Jill.

Shallay: jill - and it just clicked!? I've wondered about that. So clarity by just knowing something...

Sandra Dodd: Jill was clear, honest, helpful. I wanted to quote what was said about Faramir because I think Jill had an opportunity to show her quality, and so did the respondent.

Shallay: or when it comes together in a way you personally understand

Capn Franko: Heinlein's "grok" maybe?

Sandra Dodd: Jill thanked her for being understanding, or said she hoped she would understand or something, why that post wasn't going through. The person who had been wanting to post something about the value of kindness wrote to Jill: "Actually I don't understand at all Jill and quite frankly, this is bullshit. No one is selling anything. Sandra talks about Kindness all the time. Have at it with your rules. That isn't unschooling at all. "

AlexPolikowsky3: Sometimes I can't quite put something into words to answer a question on a discussion but then someone come and posts something and I go "YES". It brings even more understanding and clarity to the feeling I had.

Jill Parmer: Yes, more personal understanding. But for me to explain why I chose that direction, would be hard for me. Gosh I feel like I'm dishing out a bunch of spaghetti and want to get it all in straight lines for you.

Sandra Dodd: So I thought I would write and ask her to be nicer to moderators who are helping freely and kindly. When I got to her page (which I can't get to anymore because I'm blocked) the top post was a quote about actions having reactions.

Shallay: lol spaghetti lines

AlexPolikowsky3: well there you go Sandra. Do what I say but not what I do?

Sandra Dodd: When a person speaks, writes, takes another person a glass of water, gives someone a ride, they are either gaining or losing points/credit/regard.

Shallay: right because to translate into words everything inside....

Jill Parmer: I wrote "Thanks for understanding" in hopes that I could push the rejecting message toward a nicer place for that lady.

Sandra Dodd: Don't try to express everything that's inside.
Sandra Dodd: Too much spaghetti.
Sandra Dodd: Small, clear, to the point. Choices. Choose helpful over fluff. Choose clear over garbled.

Capn Franko: Fascinating topic but I gotta go make some lunch and help the neighbor kid with her algebra homeschooling course. An opportunity to sow some unschooling wisdom. (grin)

Sandra Dodd: The person who wrote that to Jill would have earned more points, would have felt better about herself, if she had waited, and thought, and maybe accepted that there was a reason.
Sandra Dodd: It would've been easier for Jill to click "approve" than to reject it and write a note. But for the benefit of some subset of 3300 members, she was careful, and took time to try to be clear.
Sandra Dodd: Jill wins. Jill wins in MY world, where I have defended her and I appreciate her. Jill and I lose in this other woman's world, because she's angry.
Sandra Dodd: So the next level is whether our universe is made better or worse by the absence of this person. Better, I think.
Sandra Dodd: Whether her world is made better by the absence of Radical Unschooing Info. Maybe better.
Sandra Dodd: Win/win, perhaps. 
Sandra Dodd: But I see the universe from my own vantage point. A person who would say "bullshit" to Jill AND the try to use me to make Jill feel wrong.... uncool. Unworthy. Suddenly I don't care what she thinks about me.
Sandra Dodd: So every time a person writes in public, they will gain or lose regard/points/credit/"fa​ce" in the world of anyone who notices and cares.
Sandra Dodd: There are people whose good opinion I care more about than others.
Sandra Dodd: And not to diss you guys, but it's relative. Holly just called me and really needs to talk, so I'm going to bail two minutes early. PLEASE feel free to hang out here and continue the discussion. I'll read what I missed later.

AlexPolikowsky3: Clarity wins , for me, over pretty fluffy words . You can say all this wonderfully sounding things and act like that woman above.
AlexPolikowsky3: Bye!

Sandra Dodd: Next week "If I Let Him" and other fear-based assumptions parents can learn to relax about.

AlexPolikowsky3: Say Hi to Holly!

Jill Parmer: The thing I found interesting in the interaction with that lady, was that maybe I was unenlightened or a dolt, and yet she did not extend "Kindness" to me. And that's the thing I find a lot with people being airy fairy, they write all this love and peace and kindness stuff, but that all goes out the window in an instant. And they seem to have not problem being rude and aggressive.

AlexPolikowsky3: If I let him he will sleep on my chest all day......says the person with the kitten on top of her.
AlexPolikowsky3: Exactly JIll!

Marta Pires: Yes Jill, I've seen that a lot too.

AlexPolikowsky3: I have seen that too.
AlexPolikowsky3: Jinks Marta!

Marta Pires: 

Andrea: I see it, also.

Shallay: or worse cruelty under the veil of kindness,
Shallay: i'd rather be cursed at

Laura Z: Me too shally

AlexPolikowsky3: Worse yet, cruelty towards their children and being offended by perceived attacks!

Jill Parmer: Wow that chat went fast.

Marta Pires: Great chat!

Shallay: oh the worst alex

AlexPolikowsky3: I missed most and I am so thankful for the clarity I get from you all.

Jill Parmer: perceived attacks? from the kid? or other parents calling them on it?

Marta Pires: Gotta go eat dinner! My husband just cooked an amazing pasta with pesto and cherry tomatoes  Yummy
Marta Pires: Bye!

AlexPolikowsky3: From the people discussing online JIll.
AlexPolikowsky3: Nice Marta!

Andrea: Enjoy!

Marta Pires: (I won't exit the chat room, because I'll come by later to copy the transcript for the blog)

AlexPolikowsky3: Parents calling them out on it.

Marta Pires: Thanks!

Jill Parmer: Yes, what is that. Low on the emotional intelligence, of Howard Gardner.

AlexPolikowsky3: Andrea is your Brooke that talks to Gigi?

Jill Parmer: Have a good evening and yummy dinner, Marta.

Andrea: Yes 

AlexPolikowsky3: Jill I think that people are not looking at their children. It is about them and not the kids

Jill Parmer: Right.

AlexPolikowsky3: They are cute playing!
AlexPolikowsky3: Gigi has some real nice friends!!!!!!!!!!

Jill Parmer: Gonna go now. Have a great day/evening folks.
Jill Parmer left the chat

Andrea: Yes, Alex! Most of the unschoolers I first met when we moved here are not the best examples. I am glad to have met some friends online.
Andrea: And I'm very happy that Skype exists! The kids are having so much fun lately.
Andrea: Chatting and meeting new friends

AlexPolikowsky3: YES
AlexPolikowsky3: where do you live ANdrea?

Andrea: NH

AlexPolikowsky3: That is right I think I knew that.
AlexPolikowsky3: Come to our Conference in Minnesota ! Gigi will love that.

Andrea: It is hard to keep everyone straight!

AlexPolikowsky3: I got to go feed kittens!!!!

Andrea: I wish we could, Alex. Someday!!

AlexPolikowsky3: 

Andrea: Have a great day everyone!

AlexPolikowsky3: Bye all!!!!

Andrea left the chat 2 days ago

AlexPolikowsky3: Would love to have you guys!

Shallay: bye

schuyler left this message
I just can't get up early enough, I guess.

Sylvia Woodman left the chat

Marta Pires was timed out
Posted by

Wednesday, August 21, 2013

Internet Safety

Chat from August 21, 2013, edited by Sandra Dodd
THE IMAGE MARKERS WERE SMILEY FACES.

Jill Parmer: I have met 4 out of the 7 of you from the internet, and I've stayed at 3 of your homes.  And I'm aliiiiiive to tell about it. \^^/ 
 Jill Parmer: ....to tell about how great it was.  

AlexPolikowsky1: I am one of the lucky ones to have had Jill in my house!

Marta Pires: Jill, I hope you can come to my house too! 
Marta Pires: At least, you said you were thinking of coming to Lisbon with Addi one of these days... 

Jill Parmer: Saving my pennies, Marta.

Laura Z: 

Heather Booth: Austin is asleep and Monty is in a meeting and I am bursting at the seams to tell someone...My best friend who's pregnant just called and she's having a boy! 

Robin B.: 
Marta Pires: 
Sandra Dodd: And she's in Texas?
Sandra Dodd: You're going to try to be there for the birth?
Jihong joined the chat 32 hours ago
Heather Booth: I mean that would be great! But I'll likely wait until she has the baby and go a couple days after. Unless something happens where she ends up needed a scheduled c-section, I just don't know how I can be there on the day it happens.   Yes, she's in Texas.

Sandra Dodd: My son, Kirby, is in town since last night. He's coming over after the chat, to introduce me to his girlfriend, Destiny.  We're going up on the tram. She grew up in Texas and hasn't been up on a mountain, I don't think.

Marta Pires: Cool, Sandra!

Sandra Dodd: Today's topic is Internet Safety.
Sandra Dodd: I don't think people are as afraid of internet "exposure" as they used to be.
Sandra Dodd: Or maybe I just run with a less paranoid crowd.

Robin B.: Which would be us .

Heather Booth: It's a big topic right now with all the NSA stuff. I suspect the people who are paranoid are even more paranoid.

Robin B.: Yes, could be, Heather. I have a friend who will not use her real name online, ever.
Robin B.: It'll just confirm what she's always feared - that someone is always watching her.

Marta Pires: Sandra, you've helped me not worry so much, relax more. A lot of people around me are paranoid about it.

Sandra Dodd: If the government can read your e-mail, they'll be able to find out who your made up name is, probably. 

Robin B.: Yup!
Robin B.: IP addresses!

Marta Pires: Hehe

Jill Parmer: Maybe it is getting more common with conventions of gaming and comics. Several years ago I told someone that Luke and I went to visit (and stay at their home) some friends we me through World of Warcraft and they looked at me like I had three heads. But I'll give them a bit of benefit of doubt,...they had little kids and maybe that idea was more scary for them.

Robin B.: Well, she avoided even having a computer for years. Only when her ex gave her daughter one did she sort of relax.

Jihong: I am still having lots of concern, but just take the risk and go with it.

Robin B.: What kinds of concerns, Jihong?

AlexPolikowsky1: I was heavy in message boards like ICQ in 1996 so I have never been paranoid. Had friends from years that I kept in touch!

Sandra Dodd: I wouldn't know any of you if it weren't for the internet. Virginia and Kim, I might meet someday.

Jihong: a lot of personal information on the internet

Marta Pires: We wouldn't have pulled off that surprise last week, if it weren't for the internet.  An international surprise, if I might add! 

AlexPolikowsky1: I met my husband online! Need I say more?

Sandra Dodd: My husband fears that too, but he has printout of bank statements. Someone could come to the house and take those papers away.  He has charge cards and checkbooks in his desk.

Robin B.: I wouldn't have known how to be a better parent if it hadn't been for the internet (and specifically unschoolingdotcom and AlwaysLearning). My in-person homeschooling/unschoolin​g group only took me so far.

Marta Pires: What Robin said!

Virginia W joined the chat 32 hours ago

Kim_AR: We've met a couple of times  Most recent at Un in the Sun. Dani spent 30mins with the baby octopus.

Sandra Dodd: Oh, true! Keith and I couldn't have gone out to that sweet dinner if not for the internet. 
Sandra Dodd: OH! Sorry, Kim! I was thinking of my house or your house. I get faces with names eventually.

Jill Parmer: Then there's Brian (Alex's husband) and all his farmer friends on the internet that tried to keep some of us ahead of a snowstorm. 

Kim_AR: I'm quiet though...

Virginia W: We have a big crush on the internet at my house. We think the risks are dwarfed by the benefits.

Sandra Dodd: I'm still giddy when I think about that octopus.
Sandra Dodd: I have a little octopus flip book in the bathroom. I flipped it yesterday, and thought about that octopus.

Kim_AR: It was definitely cool for my animal loving girl

Virginia W: And the risks don't seem all that different from meat-space risks.
Virginia W: We give out a lot of personal information every time we leave the house, to anybody who can see us.
Virginia W: I know people who think it is risky to wear a tshirt with your name on it.

Jill Parmer: What are "meat-space risks"?
Robin B.: I was just going to ask that, Jill!

Sandra Dodd: People used to cover up their checks with one hand, when writing checks at grocery stories, to keep people from seeing their address or phone number, when people used to write checks for groceries.

Kim_AR: You can see my front door on google earth

AlexPolikowsky1: JIll or maybe saved the cow and calf ( at least a huge vet bill) the other day as my husband looked up something on his Iphone /Internet in the middle of the pasture!

Robin B.: I'm thinking baby back ribs!

Sandra Dodd: Paranoia has been around a long, long time.

Virginia W: "Meat-space" = the physical world. As opposed to online.

Robin B.: I used to call my friend a techno-luddite, but that might have been redundant!

Sandra Dodd: noun. a term, originating from cyberpunk fiction and culture, referring to the real ( that is, not virtual) world, the world of flesh and blood.
Sandra Dodd: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=meatspace

Robin B.: Well, so glad it's not Learn Nothing Day!
Robin B.: Not a term I'll use much, I don't think.


Sandra Dodd: People repair their own appliances with video directions. I watched some tile videos last time I was doing tile. I wanted a refresher, and to see whether there were new materials on the market I should know about.

AlexPolikowsky1: I really enjoy my virtual/online friends! I have met some in real life and it s pretty cool!

Sandra Dodd: I could've gone to the home improvement store where they would have sold me a book and pressed me to buy the most expensive stuff.

Robin B.: I learned how to sew stretch fabric. I know enough not to ever want to do it again.
Robin B.: From YouTube, I mean.

Sandra Dodd: People can watch other people quilt, and knit and play guitar—how to play particular songs.

Jill Parmer: I figure getting to know folks online to decide if you want to meet them is kinda cool. Sorta like the women who wrote to soldiers during the wars and met afterward and married. You get to know a lot about a person through writing.

Sandra Dodd: I think for writing itself, the advantage of communicating online is huge.
Sandra Dodd: Real writing, with real readers.

Virginia W: I replaced the screens of two different phones using instructions from YouTube

Sandra Dodd: So maybe one "danger of the internet" is that some technicians, and guitar teachers, might not have as much business.

AlexPolikowsky1: I learned to build a computer ! on my computer! HA!

Jill Parmer: All those How-To Youtube videos, make me like and appreciate the goodness of people. Taking their time to video and tell how to do something. Lots of gratitude there. I fixed my dryer from one of those.

Sandra Dodd: People don't need to go to a bar at night to "be around other people."
Sandra Dodd: Or if people do want to go to a bar, they can read reviews, look at menus, and invite their friends by facebook. 

Heather Booth: I met Jill here, then at Always Learning Live a couple years ago. Her whole family came and stayed with us for three days a couple weeks ago, but it all started here; online.
Jill Parmer: And a lovely home and family Heather has!!!
Heather Booth: Right back atcha!


Kim_AR: I love the ability to read from a wide variety of sources and form my own opinion.

Robin B.: I know Jill, Sandra, Heather & Jihong in person, but first met them online.

AlexPolikowsky1: Robin only needs to come visit and we will be like BFFs

Heather Booth: I met Sandra after a talk at HSC, but got to know her online. She's also been to my house.

Robin B.: 

AlexPolikowsky1: Yes When I met Sandra and Jill I felt like I knew them already and they were old friends. ​ IT was pretty awesome!


Jill Parmer: I don't think all the information saves gullible people though, even with all kinds of reviews and such. If one does not know how to read between the lines or gather more information or be a critical thinker, one will be just as gullible with a door to door salesman as and online solicitation.

AlexPolikowsky1: Yes Jill !

Marta Pires: Even I have had the chance to meet some of you in person! You came all the way to Lisbon! (Jihong and Sandra and Joyce) 

Jill Parmer: Yes, there is that ease of connection, Alex. I felt like I already knew you, and so the beginning of meeting was easy, and I just got right into the flow of whatever we were doing that day and then going to your home.

Sandra Dodd: Because Marty moved out, and Holly wants to have house shows in the back of the house, she has been helping me move two rooms full of my own stuff into Marty's old room.
Sandra Dodd: Because of the internet, there are lots of things I'm willing to throw away now.

Jill Parmer: Wow, that's huge for you, Sandra. Wow.

Sandra Dodd: Pictures of costumes, or of medieval objects, furniture, heraldry—I don't need to keep pictures like that anymore.
Sandra Dodd: Dictionaries. I used to LOVE dictionaries.
Jill Parmer: fyi, Sandra has amazing pack rat abilities. 
Sandra Dodd: If something is easily available on the internet, there's not much reason to keep it.


AlexPolikowsky1: I know many families that the parents use computers but kids are no allowed or very very restricted. I do not understand why. Really.
AlexPolikowsky1: All the fear.

Laura Z: If it wasn't for the Internet we would never have met Kim before moving to AR. I knew ahead of time there was a family from here attending the Un in the Sun conference

AlexPolikowsky1: Cool Laura and Kim!

Laura Z: And we keep in contact with friends and family from around the world. And it's allowed Caitlyn to make friends with kids around the world.

Sandra Dodd: That's going for sewing supplies, too, in an odd way.
Sandra Dodd: I've kept some things because they would be hard to find again.
Sandra Dodd: But with the internet, I can find ANYTHING again, just about.
Jill Parmer: Wait. I don't get the connection between internet and sewing supplies?
Jill Parmer: ah.

Laura Z: I was just talking with someone whose house was broken into and they DID have all their personal papers stolen. And I've had my credit card stolen online but also from people who stole the number in restaurants.

AlexPolikowsky1: and I love Facebook, Pinterest, Goodreads! They have help me keep in touch with loved ones, family, friends, be inspired, learn ( TONS) find good books I want to read!

Laura Z: Yes Alex!

Sandra Dodd: Jill, things like overalls buckles, or twill tape with snaps set in...
Sandra Dodd: I can give them to the thrift store now. If I need more, I can find some to order online.

AlexPolikowsky1: Laura Gigi really wants to meet Caitlyn!!!!!!
AlexPolikowsky1: She loved meeting Mary last year at the ALL Minnesota! Now she wants your daughter!
Laura Z: Alex 

Robin B.: I've sourced many things for cosplay online that I wouldn't find, no matter how many stores I physically visited.

Jill Parmer: When Luke and Addi were young and playing games with people online, I helped them think through things, about if they wanted to play with a particular person or trade with them or whatever else like that. They got to be discerning with a helper right by them.

Virginia: We're ready to give up the majority of our books because of the internet.

Sandra Dodd: Holly and I went through DVDs today, to move them to another room. There's a pile for Marty to check through, but I think Marty's pretty much watching things online only, now.
Sandra Dodd: We gathered up several dozen DVDs for Holly to give a friend of hers who's studying film.

Robin B.: Yes, Jill. Senna learned a lot about people when gaming.
Robin B.: I've taken all our DVD's out of their cases and put them in the equivalent of photo albums!

Laura Z: My brother is still old school - wants to read his book in his hand, flip the page, touch it. I love my kindle because I can hit the next page button and keep on folding.


Robin B.: I like both "platforms" Laura!

Laura Z: Robin, I like non fiction in paper but fiction on Kindle
Laura Z: And we have stacks of DVDS that are mostly on the Internet now. I found Gnomeo y Julieta (Gnomeo and Juliet) in Spanish last night on You Tube - the entire thing

Sandra Dodd: Folding what, Laura?
Laura Z: Sorry folding clothes

Jihong: We are "digitalized", at least my life and my kids' life, which is great for mobility
Sandra Dodd: I like to fold corners on books. 

Robin B.: Oh, sacrilege!

Sandra Dodd: I write in books.

Marta Pires: Me too, Sandra (fold corners on books)

Sandra Dodd: The copy of the Big Book that I'm using for chats is one that I didn't mean to write in, but I mistook a blank copy for my Just Add Light copy, and marked in it.

Laura Z: I do like to fold corners on books too, but interestingly I really do prefer reading the fiction online. Non fiction I still like to hold, mark up, fold pages 

Sandra Dodd: That makes good sense, Laura.

Robin B.: It must be left over from school. I had hand-me-down textbooks and I didn't like someone else's notes on "my" book. 


Jill Parmer: I like to write notes in my books.

Laura Z: And I do like having someone sign my books - like my Big Book (thanks Sandra)

AlexPolikowsky1: I love books but man!!!! My kindle rocks! Cheap books, fast and I can carry many everywhere! Plus instant preview and sample!

Sandra Dodd: Although I used to fold down a corner or two in (ahem...) historical novels, for a quick read sometimes...

Robin B.: Or, just a personal quirk. I like bookmarks over folding corners, as well.

AlexPolikowsky1: So safety!
AlexPolikowsky1: Gigi will not answer calls on Skype or accept friend requests of people she does not know.
AlexPolikowsky1: My son has met and kept a few friends online. People I do not know. One girl that he used to play a lot of role play and write stories with.

trista: I love how great the internet is for introverts--Sam and I are watching Futurama downstairs while Brook is up on her room watching the same episode, but we have her on Skype. Both are in their most favorite, comfortable places and yet we're still together.

Robin B.: Nice, Trista.
Virginia: That's sweet, trista. Sounds like my house.
Sandra Dodd: Interesting, Trista!
AlexPolikowsky1: Cool trista! My kids will skype with each other and they can just talk through the wall if they wanted!
Laura Z: I like that idea Trista. WE're moving in a couple of months (will be in same town as Kim yay) and will have an upstairs now. We'll have to try the Skype out for upstairs and down 
Virginia: My Lydia (8) recently moved her computer from her bedroom to the living room so we could be more together.
AlexPolikowsky1: I used to Skype my son to ask if he wanted something to eat!
Virginia: Sometimes Miriam (6) calls me on her phone to wipe her bottom.
Robin B.: LOL Virginia

Laura Z: Where we are now - we actually have a big table with our computers and Stephane watches TV about 10 feet away so we're always close. Not sure how we'll set that up in the new house, but I do love it here.

Robin B.: You're moving again, Laura?

Laura Z: LOL yes Robin...
Laura Z: But Caitlyn is good with it this time!

Robin B.: Good that you're closer to Kim, Laura.
Laura Z: 


Virginia: Can we talk about how the internet helps *keep* people safe? Is that on topic?

Jihong: When my mother hands me a shopping list for grocery, I don't take the list any more, I take a picture with my iphone and that is it 

trista: I know Brook has tried to watch show with her friends on Skype, but it gets frustrating with all of the sound overlapping. But I remember reading somewhere that there is now a site where you can watch together? Anybody know what that one is?

Laura Z: Yes that was me that posted that Trist

Virginia: I think there's a way to do that on Xbox live.


Sandra Dodd: When The Jetsons had their videophone, it was the size and shape of an early iMac.

Robin B.: Oh, that's right Sandra. I remember that from the Jetsons.

Sandra Dodd: Now, though, videophones are iPhones and other smartphones.
Sandra Dodd: Ipads.

Laura Z: But we also use Skype to screenshare and she can watch videos with friends that way too.

Virginia: It makes a little virtual "theater" with the show on the "screen" and xbox avatars in the "seats".

Sandra Dodd: That's fun, Jihong, but how do you line through things you've gotten? I take a sticky note, put it on the cart handle, and line through. Or I don't, like last time, line through, and then I forget something.
Jihong: Sandra, I dont line through, just double check

Jihong: also I am exploring learning language (French)---amazing resources available. I am thinking of teaching other people Chinese with my kids throughhttp://verbling.com/i/55353791630004705654
Laura Z: great link Jihong

Laura Z: I like that idea Jihong. I write a list and promptly lose it.

Kim_AR: Grocery IQ is an app I love

Sandra Dodd: Virginia, start us off. What are you thinking about how people are safer because of the internet? I'm for talking about that.

Virginia: Little stuff or big stuff?
Virginia: People have already mentioned getting to know somebody before meeting in person.
Virginia: Which keeps people safer physically and emotionally.

Laura Z: Yes that would be useful for me because my brothers are very against Internet becuse of government and others checking on us
Laura Z: Well how about how you can already find inforamation ABOUT people.
Laura Z: You can get a good feel for who they are, what they've posted, etc.

Sandra Dodd: you can also find inflated made-up "information" about people, but that's another subject. That was always true, and can be true in person (people wearing better-than-normal clothes, using false names and fake accents).
Laura Z: Yes exactly Sandra
Jihong: second that, Laura. facebook timeline weaves a story about that person

Kim_AR: My husband's business travel has decreased a lot since they can now teleconference. I like him safe at home.

Sandra Dodd: That's a good point about teleconferences. Keith, same.

Jihong: also people are on their best behavior, for online reputation and credibility...

trista: I can order my groceries and have them delivered to my house! Not only does it save a lot of frustration, but it keeps us off the road (not a good place to be when you're all frustrated).

Sandra Dodd: I can order something obscure, and not drive all over looking for it (and buying things I didn't need, and failing to find the target thing)

Marta Pires: I also love to be able to order a lot of cool (and sometimes cheaper) things on the internet, from around the world and have it delivered at my door. 

Laura Z: Yes agreed Marta.

Sandra Dodd: Oooh... Remember when people could first order books on Amazon, and local bookstores were cranky and going out of business?
Sandra Dodd: Now people hardly order books at all, just electronic things.

Laura Z: Maybe you can order something that you'd have to drive to an unsafe area to find otherwise

AlexPolikowsky1: I went to pick up GIgi's horseback riding instructor at her new home and I google mapped it and even saw the front of the house so it was so easy to find (that can make it safe)!

Marta Pires: Yes Alex, google maps is great too.

Virginia: We almost never need to go to big box stores. (Not casting aspersions) Amazon is the biggest box of the all.

Laura Z: Well I do order books still, but from Amazon or sellers on Ebay.
Laura Z: Rarely from the bookstore.

Sandra Dodd: Now, though, publishers probably wish people were at least buying books from Amazon.
Sandra Dodd: I got a catalog in the mail the other day—Bill Blas—used to be all books.

Sandra Dodd: Now it's coffee mugs, decorative items, t-shirts for book lovers...

trista: We can find recommendations for who to hire when we need to have someone to the house. I'm always leery having someone out, but things like Angie's List make me feel a lot better.

Kim_AR: We love the animal cams. You can get up close to almost any animal from the safety of your home.
Jihong: Ki, what is animal cams?

AlexPolikowsky1: JIhong like the Bear Den Cameras and Owl cameras where you can watch the animals live!
Sandra Dodd: Jihong, animal cam is like a camera set right next to an eagle's nest or something, so people can see the eggs hatch

Virginia: Google has a music service for $10 per month that is basically everything. I hope one day they can offer the same for books, and video.

AlexPolikowsky1: I buy stuff now on Facebook groups that are local and it is even better than Craigslist sometimes. Safer!! You can see the person's page and have an idea

Jill Parmer: Gosh I must be living pretty dangerously....I check with out local bookstore downtown before ordering on the internet, and I ride my bike to pick it up, and it's next to my favorite tea shop, so I'll usually get a matcha latte.

Sandra Dodd: The last line on the page in the book on Online Safety is this: "Playing Halo online isn't as dangerous as hanging around outside a convenience store."

Virginia: I love how you pierce the image of "violent" gaming. They're sitting on a couch, twiddling their fingers, next to their mom. Not violent.

Laura Z: Yes Alex that is a great thing! I usually prefer Ebay over Craigslist for electronics because you have recourse if something is a dud

Laura Z: but Jill you have those favorite local shops. Not everyone does 

Jill Parmer: True Laura, plus I live one mile from our downtown.

AlexPolikowsky1: JIll I love buying books and find them local thrift stores !

Kim_AR: I love reading the notes others' have written in the used books. 

Sandra Dodd: With multi-player online gaming, kids can "socialize" for hours, without the danger of the new friends' other friends, older brothers, whatever, being drunks or druggies or bullies. It doesn't matter, if they're not at your house.

AlexPolikowsky1: Yes Sandra!^^

Sandra Dodd: There's not the worry of some other kid's mom or dad driving them somewhere without being completely sober. The kids are home.

trista: I love online banking--I always feel like i need to hurry and keep my head down at the ATM.

Laura Z: Wasn't there something posted recently about a little boy who was able to guide his grandmas car to safety from skills he learned playing video games?
Laura Z: maybe it was here?

Sandra Dodd: Not here, Laura, unless it was the day I forgot the chat and missed the first hour

Jihong: And internet makes travel much feasible and safe...the reviews give me assurance what kind of people I am dealing with and what kidn of properties we are going to occupy

Laura Z: Trista - that online banking also provides a safety net because you can check your account often. I've found out when people have stolen my debit card number much faster than if I had to wait to be notified aftera bunch of fraudulent purchases.

Marta Pires: I don't think it was here either, Laura.

Laura Z: although not directly Internet - lots of gaming is Internet based. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...

Sandra Dodd: There is online gambling.
Sandra Dodd: In the UK, TONS of it. In the UK, roadside services (like our rest-stops, crossed with a mall) have electronic gambling machines.

Virginia: I think that's still safer than a casino.

Sandra Dodd: And yes. It's safer (and cheaper) than a casino.
Sandra Dodd: Safer than machines at roadside services in the UK. 
Sandra Dodd: Used to be people needed to walk down to the betting shop (often combined with a small grocery store) to place bets in th UK. Now, they can do it online.

Virginia: Safer than driving to the store for a lotto ticket or a scratch off even.

Sandra Dodd: There were bets on the royal baby. They bet on American elections, American sports, Australian sports.

Virginia: People in alabama drive to georgia and florida to buy lottery tickets.

Jill Parmer: If people are up to causing trouble in online games it's easier to not play with them and they can't get a mob going. I've seen in online chats in World of Warcraft people defending victims, and people not rallying to a bully.

Sandra Dodd: There are longterm bets—what the royal baby will study or do as an adult.

Robin B.: I can take photos of my checks and deposit them online.

Virginia: They're almost infinitely more likely to die in a car crash buying the tickets than to win.

Sandra Dodd: True, Virgina. Grim but true. 
Sandra Dodd: And driving BACK from a Casino? Crazy dangerous, especially if one won money.

Robin B.: And been drinking.

Sandra Dodd: So there. The internet makes gambling safer for everyone except those in Alabama.
Sandra Dodd: [Brits] think our guns are shocking, and I think their gambling is shocking.

Robin B.: Put 'em together and you have: Vegas?

Virginia: DO people have a lot of guns in NM?

Sandra Dodd: Oh sure, Virginia.
Sandra Dodd: There were little sticker signs on the doors of the theater where Holly and I went two weeks ago that said no guns allowed inside. 

Robin B.: I think both things are shocking but I'm Canadian.
Robin B.: 

Sandra Dodd: When Keith and I drove through Texas, I took a photo of a "no firearms allowed" on a convenience store. 

Virginia: We see that around here, too. They're not expecting people who are legally packing, though. It's security theater.

Laura Z: Arkansas is pretty firearm friendly

Robin B.: WA is an open-carry state, yet I rarely see anyone with a gun in plain sight.

Sandra Dodd: Internet is safe-ish from firearms. 
Sandra Dodd: I had an incident where I put something on my blog and someone (a homeschooling mom in Texas, I'm pretty sure, who was mad at me for not liking some stuff she wrote) called the state of New Mexico on me.

Virginia: I would expect open carry to make people safer. Concealed weapons are much scarier.

Sandra Dodd: I guess she didn't know how to find out what county I was in. 

Robin B.: Holy cow!

Laura Z: come to Arkansas Robin

AlexPolikowsky1: Wow really Sandra?!

Sandra Dodd: So I talked to someone, assured her I really HAD thought of all those things...

Robin B.: No thanks, Laura!
Robin B.: Well, except to visit you, perhaps.

Sandra Dodd: VERY very interestingly... the person whose job it was to educate me about internet safety had not looked on the internet at the thing being complained about. 

AlexPolikowsky1: Everyone has a gun in Minnesota you do not see it unless it is hunting season!

Sandra Dodd: This was the thing someone went crazy about. I was safe from everyone except this one person who wanted to be RIGHT about how dangerous it was.http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2007/05/h...

AlexPolikowsky1: My kids will call me and ask me if something is safe online. They are safer than those kids who will sneak at the interned because they have no idea

Robin B.: I'll bet she didn't think you should put Holly's DL online with her address visible.

Sandra Dodd: There's the follow-up: http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2007/05/c...

Virginia: It has been possible to find the address of almost anyone whose name you know with a technology known as a "phonebook" for a looooong time.

Sandra Dodd: YES, Alex. It's like kids who will play with matches or lighters in secret, in a closet or a storage shed, because they don't want to get caught.
Sandra Dodd: You can call information and get an address, still.
Sandra Dodd: We're still in the phone book.
Sandra Dodd: And my name and address was published right at the top of the first page of the international Society for Creative Anachronism quarterly magazine for years and years.
Sandra Dodd: And it's here: http://sandradodd.com/house
Sandra Dodd: With a photo of the house, so that anyone who wants to leave a flaming sack of dogshit on my porch can do it!
Sandra Dodd: So far, nobody. Nothing.

AlexPolikowsky1: You can pretty much get anyone's address and phone number online, google map them and SEE their house!

Virginia: I think people forget that when they try to reduce risk, they are likely to introduce new risks, which they might not even be aware of.

Heather Booth: When Austin was 9 or so he had someone he was playing online with try to convince him to give him his log in info so they could trade stuff. Austin was online savy enough to know that was a bunch of hooey and blocked the user, then told me about it.

AlexPolikowsky1: YES HEather! My son has sometimes tells me stuff like that!

Virginia: There are adults who still fall for stuff like that.

Laura Z: yes and you can now find out who owns a house that you found on Google, how much they paid, when, etc unless that county is not y et online.

Sandra Dodd: I think the most dangerous thing for a kid is unhappiness.

AlexPolikowsky1: Cool Sandra I loved seeing your house!

Sandra Dodd: When a child wants out and away from parents, then things outside the house can seem appealing.
Sandra Dodd: Even questionable strangers in cars with tinted windows, who will say "meet me in the alley."

Virginia: I agree. Unhappy kids are vulnerable. Kids whose parents won't listen to them will pour their hearts out to any adult who is halfway friendly.

Sandra Dodd: And that has been happening since before the internet.

Virginia: If they're lucky, it will be a nice person, because most people are nice.

AlexPolikowsky1: The interned has helped save and reunite some of those kids!

Sandra Dodd: Finding kids who ran away?

Kim_AR: Another thought. The internet is also good for the environment. Less people on the road shopping, business travels, etc so less fuel consumption and pollution

AlexPolikowsky1: Reunite not only kids , but lost loved ones, lost pets, adoptive kids and parents,....

Virginia: Kim, yes, and finding out about new ways to do things. My front yard is a "prairie" because of something I learned on the internet.

AlexPolikowsky1: I have put my cel phone on my Facebook wall several times and on local groups too. I have never had a problem. People really do not bother you or use it for anything other than getting a hold of me!

Sandra Dodd: Yesterday someone put up a photo of a dog that was found, and asked if people knew where it lived, and someone in her town did—at last the complex/building. That's cool.

AlexPolikowsky1: Yes Sandra kids that ran away or worse.

erika E: I know Brennan is a happier kid since he started skyping with friends while he games.

Sandra Dodd: So, Kim, the internet will put filling stations out of business? Car repair shops?
Sandra Dodd: How rude!

Kim_AR: Not with the amount of driving my teenagers do 

erika E: 

AlexPolikowsky1: There are big Pet reuniting State wide and local in my area. Pets are getting reunited so much easier now! Even months later! IT is amazing what it can do the dang internet!

trista: ooh, I thought of another safety thing--we've gotten flash flood warnings sent to our cell phone, which has been really helpful!

AlexPolikowsky1: Gosh Pet reuniting Facebook pages!

Virginia: How about this for the internet keeping people safe: Pewdiepie is raising money for clean water.

trista: Wow Virginia! I hadn't heard that.

erika E: Yes we just made a donation to his site and got a copy of the game Amnesia.
erika E: I think it's on his youtube channel.

Laura Z: Yes Trista through humble game package purchases. Alex, thanks for sharing that through ...the Internet.
Virginia: Us too, we buy all the Humble Bundles. 


Sandra Dodd: I told this story somewhere lately... in England?
Sandra Dodd: Marty and Kirby used to play a game called AoN, on AOL. Alliance of Nations.
Sandra Dodd: It was like an elaborate D&D, played in chat rooms for 30, and chatrooms for 10 and 5, and messages. Like chatrooms were places, on the map of the game, and people were in one "nation" or another, with questions and assignments. Big deal, pretty elaborate.
Sandra Dodd: There was a woman playing who was 30 or so. she had a severely disabled daughter, and so she couldn't get out. The daughter was 12 or so, I think, non-verbal, non-moblie.
Sandra Dodd: And the woman really liked Kirby, who was about 16 at the time.
Sandra Dodd: That worried me.
Sandra Dodd: She came to visit. She got someone else to watch her daughter for a week and she drove to Albuquerque not just to see Kirby, but four or five kid who were in the game, all teenaged boys.
Sandra Dodd: She brought them expensive gifts.
Sandra Dodd: I was nervous that she might want to talk Kirby into going back with her.
Sandra Dodd: But the boys were wary, and decided not to be alone with her. And she was nice, and lonely, and LIKED that these kids were nice to her online, and that they were good at playing an elaborate game.
Sandra Dodd: So she had a nice few days, hung out at the gaming shop where they also hung out, and then went home.

Robin B.: Probably a highlight in her life, Sandra.

Virginia: A lot of mothers would have used that fear to prevent the visit.

Sandra Dodd: IF Kirby had been unhappy at home, someone who had a car and a house and could afford hundred-dollar gifts might've persuaded him to come and help her with her daughter, and be her sweetie and to be a noble hero.
Sandra Dodd: She didn't stay at our house. I would've let her, but I don't know where she stayed.
Sandra Dodd: And once Marty was invited to meet a girl at a mall, that he met in that game (or another similar).

AlexPolikowsky1: Erika Amnesia is scary! Cool of Pewdiepie!

Sandra Dodd: He suggested she bring friends and he would, too. So their groups of three or four friends met, and it was like a date for Marty and the girl, but they had bodyguards and advisors. 

Virginia: Botanicula is in the HB, it is awesome. Sandra: Sweet!

Sandra Dodd: They didn't hit it off, but they were polite and had some fun, and parted politely.

Virginia: My husband got upset recently because our daughter put on a "naked" minecraft skin.

Robin B.: Virginia, can you explain the "'naked' Minecraft skin" for those who don't play, please?

Virginia: Sure. Minecraft is a game with low-resolution graphics.

erika E: Alex I thought I might play it with him it looks like it has quite a bit of story to it. That's the kind of games I like.

Virginia: Players can change their "skins" to anything.

 Robin B.: Oh, I see. I know Minecraft - I didn't know about naked skins.

Virginia: Lydia changes her skin around once per day.

AlexPolikowsky1: cool stories Sandra!

Sandra Dodd: What is "a skin"
Sandra Dodd: The frame, like on a music-player "skin"?
Sandra Dodd: Or a character

Virginia: The "skin" is the appearance of your character.

AlexPolikowsky1: erika my son loves it since he was 9 or 10!

Virginia: Yes. The default skin is "Steve"

Virginia: There's a site called the "Skindex" with thousands.

AlexPolikowsky1: Gigi makes her own skins!

Laura Z: and it could be clothes/hair/shoes etc

Jill Parmer: A naked skin can't be anymore than flesh colored cubes, can it? It's hard to get fine details in Minecraft, no?

Robin B.: And your husband was upset because her character was nekkid?

Virginia: A "naked" skin would be one that resembles a naked body.
Virginia: Yes.
Virginia: Yes, those were my thoughts.

Sandra Dodd: There are instincts involved, dads of daughters.
Sandra Dodd: Don't blame him too much. 

Laura Z: But it could be safer for her to explore running around naked as a game character than as a streaker

Virginia: Sandra: I get it. Furthermore, if you saw someone on a Minecraft server, in a naked skin, would your first thought, or even your second be "That is a female person in that nude skin."
Virginia: My first an second thought would be that it was a male troll.

Laura Z: And maybe he's concernced that she will want to do that in person, or that it might draw the wrong kind of attention.

Virginia: I know, I agree, I get that he has valid concerns.
Virginia: I didn't say anything to him about it.

Laura Z: But there are lots of skins on Minecraft that aren't covering the body

Virginia: And there are ones that don't even look human.

Laura Z: Virginia is she playing on servers like that or only on her own world

Virginia: She plays super craft bros.

Laura Z: okay

Virginia: And she just started playing pixelmon on a couple of servers.

Robin B.: Did he express his dismay to you or to your daughter?

Virginia: I was not present, but I know he did say something to her.

Robin B.: I forget how old your daughter is, Virginia.

Virginia: He said something like "I don't want to embarass her, but..."

Sandra Dodd: I think any child whose parents will listen to him or her, who are glad she's home, who aren't giving her reasons to be sneaky, is probably pretty safe!

Virginia: She is 8.
Virginia: Yes, she occasionally wants privacy, but it's just not because she's sneaking.

AlexPolikowsky1: Gigi likes privacy too but not sneaking anything!

Jill Parmer: "Naked" to an 8 year old in a safe home means something very different than "naked" to a grown man with a daughter.


Virginia: She really is a bit of a nudist. She goes nude whenever she can.

Sandra Dodd: There was a time I objected to something about Holly, and it's silly.
Sandra Dodd: So I had the instinctive desire to protect her from her nasty self.
Sandra Dodd: Ready to hear what it was? 

Jill Parmer: Not sure, should I be worried?

Marta Pires: Yes 

Sandra Dodd: Holly's player name on XBox or Playstation II or something was "Holly-Would."
Sandra Dodd: I thought it was going to give people bad ideas.

Robin B.: Uh-oh. Porn name. 

 Sandra Dodd: That's as lame as a nekkid minecraft icon, isn't it? 

Jill Parmer: Heh, and I'm guessing Doozy was being creative with "Holly" and "Hollywood".

Sandra Dodd: I don't think she was in danger. But the suggestion of willingness to... do what? She was 11 or 12.

Robin B.: Did she mean it as a play on "Hollywood"?

Sandra Dodd: She said Marty helped her come up with it.

Marta Pires: My thought too, Jill!

Sandra Dodd: I guess Hollywood was taken. 

trista: And my kids, who love word play, would say, "THAT'S A HOMONYM!!"

Robin B.: 

Sandra Dodd: So sometimes parents are irritatingly over-protective.

Robin B.: That's when "breathe!" helps.

Sandra Dodd: Someone write a clever conclusion, please.

erika E: Yes I have to "breathe" often =)

Jill Parmer: Oh, yeah, there are so many creative ways to spell your characters name, which is a necessity when names are "taken". 

Kim_AR: The internet is wonderfully life expanding...
Kim_AR: and can help create safety

Robin B.: And it doesn't necessarily mean "breahthe and say nothing or do nothing" - just gives you extra space to calm down from thinking the absolute worst thing is going to happen.

erika E: yes totally

Jill Parmer: What kids think about the things they are doing are usually way cleaner than what parents think of the same thing.

trista: it is the way of the future!...until something even more amazing is developed.

AlexPolikowsky1: Virginia my 7 year old daughter loves naked too!

Jill Parmer: Trying for the clever conclusion there. 

Kim_AR: lol

Virginia: I love that story, Sandra. I think I would call that a "Don't just do something, stand there!" moment.

Jill Parmer: Maybe instead of "cleaner" , I should have said "innocent".

Laura Z: Isnt' that a good reminder that our baggage isn't theirs

Sandra Dodd: Kirby and Marty will be here soon, and Destiny, Kirby's new girlfriend. I'm going to get up, stretch, load the dishwasher. You're welcome to hang out in here if you want. Thank you for being here!

Sandra Dodd: Marta and I are moving chats (new ones and old ones, eventually lots) here:

Marta Pires: Have a good time!

Sandra Dodd: http://chattranscripts.blogspot.com

Laura Z: thanks Sandra

Sandra Dodd: Thanks!

Robin B.: Jill and they're more aware of the nasty bits (and avoid them) than we think.

AlexPolikowsky1: As we can see this group of people have met online and some even in real life ( after meeting online) and they are all alive
​ They send one of the people in the group they never ever met money and the person did what she said she would! WOW Internet is not that scary anymore
​ That one met her husband online and that other one spent a week in another ones house before ever meeting other than oline
Conclusion:
Internet can be safer and kids that have been using it safely at home and are happy and connected to their family will not just take off with a wack job!

AlexPolikowsky1: Bye!

Jihong: thanks for the chat
erika E: Bye...Thanks everyone! =)
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