"Think of some specific things that changed in you, about you, when you were deschooling. Think of a time when you hit a snag, a lump, an un-deschooled part of you. What happened? What did you do?
Deschooling is a process that can't be sped up, I think. I could be wrong."
Virginia Warren: The topic is of great interest to me.
Sandra Dodd: Deschooling... "Like what?!"
Sandra Dodd: When we send people to the deschooling page, it might be overwhelming.
Sandra Dodd: Before there was that page, I used to suggest people treat each day as though it were a great Saturday. That works for adults who were in school, but not for kids. 
"Stop thinking schoolishly" is another thing I've written so much I can write it like one long Albuquerque word But it seemed more sensible to have webpages to send people so that the regular posters weren't writing the same things over and over and over
"Stop thinking schoolishly" is another thing I've written so much I can write it like one long Albuquerque word But it seemed more sensible to have webpages to send people so that the regular posters weren't writing the same things over and over and over
Sylvia Woodman: Recently I've told people to image they were on vacation
Sandra Dodd: I like that, Sylvia.
Sandra Dodd: "Be a tourist in your own town" can work, too. depending on the town.
Sylvia Woodman: I've read in books about upper class people who would take month long or 6 week long vacations. The longest vacation I've ever taken in my adult life was my honeymoon which was 2 weeks.
Sandra Dodd: If someone lives in a rural town of 200 people, it's better to recommend an overnight in a city.
Rippy: Long vacations are not unusual in the Netherlands
Virginia Warren: Thinking you are "already deschooled" can be an appalling barrier to deschooling. It was for me.
Sylvia Woodman: I blame the puritans
Sandra Dodd: Sylvia, those were the local things, right? Because rich people in the 19th century, after steam ships came aong, and then combustion engines, would "take a trip around the world" and those vacations lasted many months.
Sylvia Woodman: Jim is actually descended from a puritan. He can trace back his family to Cotton Mather.
Sandra Dodd: Sylvia, did his family stay with New England religions? Unitarian, Episcopalian?
Sylvia Woodman: They are Presbyterian which is very much like Congregationalist.
Sandra Dodd: Keith's parents were Presbyterian, and were both from the northeastern world. His mom, from Canada. The Dodd in question has been traced back to a Church of Scotland minister. His parents were very seriously and deeply Presbyterian. It's not a fun church. It's all business and money and serious stewardship. Work hard. Don't whine.
His mom, from Canada. The Dodd in question has been traced back to a Church of Scotland minister. His parents were very seriously and deeply Presbyterian. It's not a fun church. It's all business and money and serious stewardship. Work hard. Don't whine.
Sylvia Woodman: YES!!!!! When we were dating I attended church with him for a year. That was my impression too. And Jim has a tendency to be serious and business oriented. He's an Elder in his church and (and kind of everywhere else too). My job in this relationship is to lighten him up. Remind him to have fun.
Sandra Dodd: Virginia, did you think that when you first came along, that you didn't need to deschool? Or was it after you had been around a while?
Virginia Warren: I thought I did it already. I didn't know it was an ongoing process. So, both.
Sylvia Woodman: For me it was after. You pointed something out to me a couple of months ago. It shocked me.
Virginia Warren: It's so much more than seeing natural learning. Schoolishness runs deep.
Sandra Dodd: But the natural learning part needs to come first.
Sandra Dodd: Then while the kids are starting to learn, the parents can start re-thinking and reviewing what happened to them as they were growing up, what they can remember their friends saying or feeling about school and parental pressure (if they have those memories, and NOT having memories can be a clue to trauma).
Virginia Warren: I was very successful in school. It was a haven for me, even with the bad stuff.
Virginia Warren: I was very successful in school. It was a haven for me, even with the bad stuff.
Sandra Dodd: I was as well, Virginia. Some of my own painful recovery came from seeing that my "success" always cost the other kids, every time. And I wasn't working hard in school. I was skating by. Skating over the other kids.
Virginia Warren: Me too, Sandra. Exactly. I secretly delighted at spoiling the curve.
Sandra Dodd: Those who didn't even bother to try were the smart ones. Those who worked hard and got B's, poor kids. And until I thought those thoughts, I couldn't see how the hurts come from the whole situation, not from a failure to work hard. It was a trap and a game I was winning. It was a trap and a place that was better for me than school, but there was no way for me to be there AND not be part of the problem.
Virginia Warren: I felt contempt for the people who told me I was so smart. I was like "For doing this?"
Sandra Dodd: Forgiving myself wasn't so easy, because I was a teacher for six years, in those same buildings. In those same classrooms. With some of those who had been my teachers. I became jailer. A jailer who also was sometimes inspiring and gave kids chances to shine and laugh, but also gave those bad grades to kids who were crushed, or who had stopped giving a shit years before, and gave those good grades to kids who had them just for walking in. Crap.
But what I COULD do, to recover my own dignity and value myself was to make my own children's lives better and richer.
Sandra Dodd: And helping other people do it helps too.
But what I COULD do, to recover my own dignity and value myself was to make my own children's lives better and richer.
Sandra Dodd: And helping other people do it helps too.
Virginia Warren: A game, yes. That's how I think of it now. I was good at the school game.
Sylvia Woodman: When I think about deschooling two things come to mind. When I was a kid I read all the Judy Blume books and she had one called "It's Not The End of The World" The story is about a family where the parents get divorced. (Which actually is the end of the world for a lot of people) and the main character evalutates every day with a grade letter. Today was a B+ day, Saturday was a D- day, etc.
Sandra Dodd: Sylvia, that's school on top of school-coated school, isn't it?
Sandra Dodd: Sylvia, that's school on top of school-coated school, isn't it?
Rippy: Is it possible to start deschooling before you've even heard of unschooling?
Sandra Dodd: Maybe, Rippy. Probably. And I hope there will be more and more therapy for people whose schooling and childhoods were so painful that they won't, for that reason, have children. They could use a platform to climb onto, to see the world from a different point of view.
AlexPolikowsky4: Yes Sandra I too did really well in school but did not have to work hard so I could not understand why other kids did so poorly and it was hard for them. I slacked and did well. I did not have to work hard. And I was not the most intelligent in school.
AlexPolikowsky4: Good at school game. Yeah probably!
AlexPolikowsky4: Good at school game. Yeah probably!
Jill Parmer: Interesting Rippy. How would "deschooling" come into your awareness before unschooling?
Sandra Dodd: I have an article I should enter into the record here: http://sandradodd.com/schoolinmyhead
Virginia Warren: School had let me down, and I had already stopped believing in it before I thought about kids or learned about unschooling. It left a hole.
Sandra Dodd That article is ten years old. I'm pretty much recovered from these two:
Every September, "back to school" kicks in. I crave the smell of crayons and new pencils. I like to go down the school supply aisle at the store and admire packages of paper, and new binders. My kids still have the binders they've had for years and they don't need new ones. I don't either, yet I'm drawn there like a migratory bird that has to pass over familiar ground at the same time every year.
I like the appearance of the letter "A" much better than I like to see a "D" or an "F." My maiden name started with "A", and my married name starts with "D." "D" is not as good. Those letters are branded into my brain with their "values" from school.
Sylvia Woodman: I like that article —right that's where you talk about trading your better Adams name for the less good Dodd name ?
Sandra Dodd: Right, Sylvia—"Dodd" is a D. I had lived my whole live as an A!
Sandra Dodd: Right, Sylvia—"Dodd" is a D. I had lived my whole live as an A!
Sandra Dodd: But the first one is because of the internet. I can get very cool supplies any time of year.
AlexPolikowsky4: It may have made it easier for me to see natural learning because I learned so much OUTSIDE school and I knew it.
Rippy: Jill - I didn't think of it as deschooling, but I noticed things about natural learning while I was in junior high/high school.
AlexPolikowsky4: I like the back to school sales. I buy a little if I can. I love office supply. I remember going shopping for school stuff with my family and I craved colored pencils, cool pens and notebooks!
Sylvia Woodman: Oh Sandra! I went to Walmart last week to buy new crayons, markers, and graph paper -- it's hard to find graph paper other times of years. (Graph paper is good for making minecraft inspired drawings)
Rippy: I travelled lots and missed lots of school and didn't always bother to catch up. But I was learning a ton of stuff from my travels. Often I'd use that *outside of the official curriculum* knowledge on my essays and ace them.
Marta Pires: I love office supplies too, Alex!!!
Sylvia Woodman: Empty notebooks are like untapped potential.
AlexPolikowsky4: Sylvia Office Depot and such always have graph paper!
Jill Parmer: Ah. Cool, Rippy. I'm guessing that would have helped you choose unschooling for your kids? Or possibly made unschooling easier in your family now?
AlexPolikowsky4: going to change my color!
AlexPolikowsky4: OK now!
Marta Pires: I used to have tons of office supplies because I would buy them and then almost not use them, for fear of not having them anymore and not being able to buy some again. 
Sylvia Woodman: You look good in red!
Virginia Warren: I knew I learned the stuff I knew outside school. The easiest way to do well in school is to already know what the teacher is supposed to be teaching you. The second I had to actually learn from the teacher, the top grades weren't so easy to get. I'm thinking of Spanish in 6th grade.
Sandra Dodd: This is still in effect, though, for me, this part of that. And I've finished three kids' unschooling years.
I still have a school in my head. Witness my total unwillingness to go to Disney World. That is a definite "nope" for me, and the only thing that would help would be more deschooling. That might happen, but I would rather settle for the more comfortable Disneyland.
Here is the true and embarrassing reason that I can love Disneyland and fear Disney World: I can score a higher percentage at Disneyland. I can do better than 80%, maybe 90% if I stay three days. I have heard from many people that one would have to stay at Disney World a week to see it all. So I don't want to go, because if I see any less than 70% that would not be a passing grade.
I see the world in terms of percentage grades. I have a "grading" overlay behind my eyes somehow that still hasn't totally faded out. It's sad but true.
Rippy: Definitely Jill. I also worked as an educator and saw how well ignoring the curriculum and focussing on the children's interests worked. It worked so much better! I hardly had any deschooling crises happen. Now radical unschooling. Holy Moly. That was difficult for me.
AlexPolikowsky4: Deschooling is an ongoing process . Once in a while , as kids get older or new situations arises , I find myself needing a bit more.
Sylvia Woodman: Oh Virginia! I know exactly what that is like! The first time I encountered some New To Me ideas was in 9th grade!
Jill Parmer: I have used lots of different sizes of graph paper when I was designing for my knitting. I have a book of it. Then I found this: http://www.printfreegraphpaper.com/
Jill Parmer: I have used lots of different sizes of graph paper when I was designing for my knitting. I have a book of it. Then I found this: http://www.printfreegraphpaper.com/
AlexPolikowsky4: Awesome Jill!
Sandra Dodd Jill that page is WONDERFUL!!! Hexagonal paper!? Gamer heaven. They don't have calligraphy practice paper, though, where the vertical lines are slanted 15% or some other particular amount. That would make it the perfect free graph paper page.
They don't have calligraphy practice paper, though, where the vertical lines are slanted 15% or some other particular amount. That would make it the perfect free graph paper page.
Sylvia Woodman: I was taking a class called Modern European History (and really it was a lot like a college class) and that is where I was introduced to philosophy.
Rippy: Marta - in case there was war or famine or a zombie attack, you would be well prepared to document everything going on since you would have access to your unused office supplies while others foolishly used theirs up too early
Sandra Dodd: In High school, Sylvia? or outside of formal school?
Jill Parmer: Really? I would never have guess that Rippy. 
So your sense about deschooling was easy, but the moving out into other areas..."holy moly" hard?
So your sense about deschooling was easy, but the moving out into other areas..."holy moly" hard?
Virginia Warren: I was jealous of the kids who worked hard. I thought "Look how much they care. They must be really smart. I'm just faking it."
Marta Pires: -=-I see the world in terms of percentage grades. I have a "grading" overlay behind my eyes somehow that still hasn't totally faded out. It's sad but true.-=- Me too, Sandra!!! What an a-ha moment! I still do this a bit and I believe that it's why I used to procrastinate so many things in my life.
AlexPolikowsky4: I had philosophy in Law School.
Marta Pires: Indeed, Rippy.
Sylvia Woodman: Yes. In high school.
Sandra Dodd: Virginia, I subscribed to a National Geographic series for kids. They were newsprint booklets with a sheet of colored stickers you licked and stuck in the right places. so then it was a color-illustrated book. I learned a lot from that. I learned a LOT from something I ordered with cereal boxtops and my own allowance. It was a Rocky and Bullwinkle trivia game using punch cards. I learned about the currency of other countries there. I think it was all geography.
I learned a lot from that. I learned a LOT from something I ordered with cereal boxtops and my own allowance. It was a Rocky and Bullwinkle trivia game using punch cards. I learned about the currency of other countries there. I think it was all geography.
Rippy: Yes. Really Jill. I think the other areas were hard for me because of Gisele's medical issues. That's probably what made it holy moly hard.
Jill Parmer: Ah.
Sandra Dodd: I hadn't told anyone about that for a while. If you stuck the pin in the right hole, the light lit up. Plain circuit board and a connection with a wire going to a light.
AlexPolikowsky4: Cool Sandra.
AlexPolikowsky4: Cool Sandra.
Virginia Warren: I used to make notebooks where I copied the country fact lists out of my World Book Encyclopedias. My main concern was getting mocked about them. Dark Blue with silver letters. My prize possession until I got my commodore 64
Sylvia Woodman: We had the World Book Encyclopedias! I used to love looking through them. Does Wikipedia have a Randomizer page like Sandra's site does?
Sylvia Woodman: I learned a lot of interesting tidbits that way.
Virginia Warren: Yes, Wikipedia has a random page link
AlexPolikowsky4: I learned a lot because my house and my grandparents house were chock full of awesome book, encyclopedias , cool collectibles and they were very interesting and interested people who talked about everything, like to explore and get us cool stuff and we loved to hang out with the adults as much as with other kids. I remember from a very early age watching then playing card games with the adults! It was pretty awesome
Virginia Warren: That sounds awesome.
Marta Pires: So cool, Alex.
Sandra Dodd: I still have my childhood encyclopedias. It's one thing the internet can't do—show what was the height of knowledge in one particular year, AND what was cool bookbinding, layout, font, style.
Rippy: That sounds great Alex!
AlexPolikowsky4: On top of that my parents were pretty good about supporting what we likes. Sure I do it a step above and better. They were not unschoolers. But I get the importance . We also never had bedtimes and fast rules. We were never made to do chores and we ate whatever and whenever we wanted ( although the quest to stay skinny is so big in Brazil that I have issues with "Don't eat too much or you will get fat" and they did praise me and made me an example for eating all in the plate - they never forced me or my siblings I just eat a lot!) They did say the kids were starving in Africa. My grandparents said to my parents who said it to us.
Virginia Warren: Mine had a human body illustration with clear overlays to show the body's systems. I thought it was amazing.
Rippy: My across the street neighbour had an awesome games room in her basement. Bookshelves filled with boardgames, card games and puzzles and toys. I loved hanging out there. And my next door neighbour had a crafts room filled with sparkles and coloured paper and markers and pure happiness. I *loved* both those basements.
Sandra Dodd: And kids are still starving in Africa, but not because I didn't choke down the last of cold pancakes.
AlexPolikowsky4: Exactly Sandra ! but to this day my mom feels bad to throw stuff away and will eat it so it is not wasted!
Sandra Dodd: So here is a lot of unschooling usefulness. Looking back over your life, what was good? What do you want to have for your children? What was bad, that you want to avoid?
AlexPolikowsky4: The power of guilt. And I did eat many times all because I was a good girl. Even if I was already done. So even subtle messages can have big consequences!
Sandra Dodd: It's the path to unschooling—to got toward the better things and away from the worse things.
AlexPolikowsky4: Sounds like a magical basement Rippy if one likes those.
Virginia Warren: Food was a huge blind spot for me.
Rippy: The unschooling environment I create at home is just a wonderful collection of the best examples I have from the past and the present.
AlexPolikowsky4: I want to avoid shaming my kids.
Sylvia Woodman: Oh Virginia that reminds me! When I was in second grade I wanted to do a map of the US like that. That showed how the 48 states developed in 1776 America looked like this. And then in 1812 it looked like this. And in 1825.... and on and on. But the problem was that I couldn't articulate exactly what was in my head and my teacher has 17 other students in the class to deal with so she didn't have time to Really Listen to what I was saying. One of the great privileges of homeschooling is that I can Really Focus and Listen to what Gabriella and Harry are trying to say to me.
AlexPolikowsky4: Even if the intention was not to shame them. I want to avoid being not mindful and to avoid reacting. I want to be mindful of my words and thoughtful.
Virginia Warren: When I was a kid, and I would try to talk to my dad, he would say "I can't listen to your jibber jabber." It didn't take long for me to stop trying. I want to hear what my kids have to say.
AlexPolikowsky4: I don't want to be thoughtless and just say things that can be negative to my kids on how they see themselves.
Sandra Dodd: Sylvia, that would've been a cool project.
AlexPolikowsky4: I am still working on that.
Sandra Dodd: Just yesterday I was looking for a map of the middle east, animated through the past 2000 years. Didn't find one. But when I have found animated maps they've been very exciting.
AlexPolikowsky4: I love love love maps. I am sure I have said that here before!
Sandra Dodd: Virginia, that is so sad for your dad to have said that. My mom used to say "You ask too many questions" or "Why don't you go out and play?"
or "Ask your teacher." But the teachers would say "They're going to cover that next year," or "That's not going to be on the test."
Virginia Warren: Me too. The first time I saw a map of the ocean floor it gave me chills.
Sylvia Woodman: Oh I'm reading a book now that just went off on a bit of a tangent on how political map making Really Is. Which is obvious and true, yet it was good to have the opportunity to kind of meditate on it awhile.
Sandra Dodd: I like maps of imaginary places, too. The map in Treasure Island. Middle Earth.
AlexPolikowsky4: I was just looking at Google map images yesterday after I found a Facebook page about the neighborhood I grew up in.
Sylvia Woodman: Oh how cool is that Alex?
Sandra Dodd: Each map is made by someone for a particular purpose. Sometime that was national security, in the Renaissance exploration days.
Virginia Warren: I studied the map of the magical land of Xanth many times.
AlexPolikowsky4: It is big as a city so I was looking around . The pictures on the page are beautiful and I miss it.
Sandra Dodd: There are still maps showing where borders are weak or enemies' missiles are.
AlexPolikowsky4: Map for Game of Thrones! I have look them up a lot!
Rippy: I want for my children to have the best parts of my childhood - the love, the closeness, the connection, the travel, hours and hours and hours of play and imagination. My parents had less money than we do, so I love being able to afford the books, school supplies, craft materials, computers, sports materials, game consoles, classes for the kids. A lot of time our family chips in to buy them things. I think that helps them feel nice to be able to afford things for the grandkids that they couldn't for the children.
Marta Pires: Sweet, Rippy.
Sylvia Woodman: ^^^That is beautiful Rippy!
Virginia Warren: It's hard for me to find good stuff from my parents. I'm not proud of that, I know my life would be better if I could soften up about my parents.
AlexPolikowsky4: I love the internet! For maps or anything. _ Just today I found this and showed Gigi who was totally into joints a couple weeks ago:
The X-Ray GIFs of Cameron Drake
Sandra Dodd: I wrote my mom off one year on Mother's day. I listed as much as I could remember that she had done for me that was sweet. I thanked her for… and then a long list of thing. I photocopied it. Maybe I'll come across it someday. But looking through my correspondence with my mom is too negative.
Sandra Dodd: After that I just marked polite time with her until she died.
Sandra Dodd: I took care of her every day after she came home from the hospital to die. Her friend wanted to take a day and I let her, and my mom died during that day, which is good for me, because I didn't see her. But I felt relief and anger.
AlexPolikowsky4: Virginia I had great parents but they were not perfect and I do have a hard time forgiving them and forgetting their shortcomings. I do work on it because , in my case, the good was more than the bad and I want to focus on the positive and make sure I don't repeat the mistakes.
Sandra Dodd: THAT can be part of what will help become an unschooling parent. Try not to be a parent whose death will bring relief and anger.
Sylvia Woodman: I loved my mom very much. But when she died I felt relief too. I never have to worry about what she thinks about me again.
Rippy: Virginia - I focussed on something very sweet my mom did and kept my focus repeatedly on that. It helped melt away my hardness towards her.
Sandra Dodd: When Sylvia Woodman's mother was dying, I watched from this distance to what she was posting and writing, and I felt soft and jealous of someone having a great mother who was easy to love, who would leave a yearning in her daughter's heart.
Sandra Dodd: So! When you decide what to do or what to say, have two options and take the one that goes toward the way you want to be, for your chidlren.
Sylvia Woodman: But Sandra, part of what helped heal the rough parts of our relationship was applying many of the ideas that you shared so generously in your writings.
AlexPolikowsky4: I know my mom tried her best to do better than what her mom did for her. So I know she tried her best. And she is one to apologize for what she could have done better. My dad too.
Sandra Dodd: That's nice to know, Sylvia. Thanks.
Sandra Dodd: My mom hit me with little things. Her dad had hit her with bigger things. For her, that was kindness and improvement.
Sandra Dodd: She drank beer instead of whiskey, which she justified as not so bad.
Jill Parmer: Alex, so cool about looking at Google Maps of old neighborhoods. I just went and took a peak at the house I lived in when I was little. Ohmygosh, all the stories that flooded my mind. I can't wait til I can tell Addi and Luke when they wake up!
Sylvia Woodman: That's why I wrote to you the week she died. I remember I was talking to Dina Marconi on the phone and I realized how much your writings had helped me not just with my kids and with Jim, but with my parents too.
Virginia Warren: That sounds really familiar Sandra.
AlexPolikowsky4: I know right Sylvia! I can still see our pool on Google maps!
Sandra Dodd: It's good to make lots of decisions all the time, not just to go one step better than parents did.
Virginia Warren: I tell myself "Better than my parents" is where I start, not where I stop.
AlexPolikowsky4: I agree Sandra. I want to do much better not just better. I want to be the best.
Rippy: My dad was my safe person to go to. Always happy to hear from me. Always had time for me. Let me hit him with all my crazy thoughts and fears and anxieties and stress and he didn't make me feel bad. He laughed and shook his head and smiled and made me feel it was okay to be crazy sometimes. I miss that I don't have that anymore. I hope I can be that sea of calmness and lightness to my kids. I'm sort of a hit and miss right now with that.
Sandra Dodd: Virginia I like " "Better than my parents" is where I start, not where I stop."
Debbie: I wonder if "better than my parents" keeps you a bit stuck there with thinking about what they did and anger at them and such, Virginia
Sylvia Woodman: Oh Wow Virginia! I want to hire a skywriter to write that across the sky!!!!
Sandra Dodd: Alex, you can't be "the best." Approach perfection, don't aim and fail. Be the best in the moment, I guess, but don't expect that to be "The BEST"
Rippy: I love that - "Better than my parents" is where I start, not where I stop.
Virginia Warren: Aww shucks.
Sandra Dodd: Debbie (who is Debbie? She's fallen out the hole in the bottom of the chat) has a valid point, though. If you think about your parents too much, and you're not in a softer place with them, that can be detrimental.
Virginia Warren: My parents just set the bar too low. My oldest daughter is 9, and I haven't abandoned her, so I already "win" that one. I feel I've done a disservice to my family in that respect.
Sandra Dodd: My own mom stopped at "better." So I like the statement.
Rippy: I think maybe it's Debbie from Australia?
Debbie: Debbie Regan, Sandra, hi!!
Sandra Dodd: The sun's not up in Australia, is it?
Debbie: Nope but it's the 14th already
Sandra Dodd: But Virginia started there and is moving on without looking back, it might not have that same negativity.
Sandra Dodd: The other day Holly said to me "But I'm not your mom."
Sandra Dodd: Yikes. What must I have said to ellicit that!? So I'm not over fears of my mom, either.
Sandra Dodd: And here's where they can still get you: When your grown children remind you of them. It's scary. It's not new to us, though. It's gone on forever. So we need to figure out how to turn it to the good and the sweetness more often than not, I guess.
Jaclyn Koehl: I've enjoyed reading here today, thank you. Time to turn over this computer to my daughter
Sandra Dodd: Do any of you have any examples to go with this? "Think of some specific things that changed in you, about you, when you were deschooling."
Debbie: I think it helped me to let go of reference to my parents - sort of wander off sideways and make better choices from the new place
Sandra Dodd: I stopped thinking of school years and school days, though it took a few years.
Sandra Dodd: I started looking for patterns instead of numbers when figuring out what math looked like outside of schoolish math.
Virginia Warren: I had a good one fairly recently. Teased out some schoolishness and got it out of my way.
Sandra Dodd: Graph paper. Musical rhythms. Notation.
AlexPolikowsky4: yes Sandra I know I cannot achieve perfection and I am far from it. This is really good: "Approach perfection, don't aim and fail. Be the best in the moment, I guess, but don't expect that to be "The BEST""
Virginia Warren: It was in respect to my older daughter's interest in Pokémon
AlexPolikowsky4: Thank you.
Virginia Warren: Because I'm a gamer I had convinced myself that there's no way I could be less than "perfectly" supportive of my kids gaming interests.
Virginia Warren: I was impressed with her ability to acquire a huge body of knowledge and analyze it.
heathermbooth: I got distracted and missed the whole chat! Now I need to get Austin his medicine. Chat with you all next week.
Sandra Dodd: Virginia, do you have living relatives who would be hurt if I quoted you about your starting place?
Virginia Warren: But a little school remnant in me wished for her to do that with something "real".
Sandra Dodd: Kirby's first job came because he understood Pokemon. Not just the cards and the game, but the way the tournaments were set up and run.
Sandra Dodd: But there's still a problem with me think it was "real" because someone gave him money to do that.
Virginia Warren: Sandra, no, I do not. There's only my mom and dad, separately. Feel free.
Sandra Dodd: If they google your name and find that, they'll be okay?
Virginia Warren: I suddenly realized, Pokémon was REAL. It gives pleasure to millions. it gainfully employs thousands.
Robin B.: One area I still need deschooling is trying to translate Senna's interests into job prospects, so yeah.
Rippy: Do you think that quote would be hurtful Sandra? I remember having a conversation with Gisele saying that my mom was a better mom than her mom and I try to be a better mom than my mom was and that Gisele would probably grow up to be a better mom than I am.
Rippy: Maybe that's the way things are?
Sandra Dodd: Some parents get pissy.
Robin B.: Yes, Virginia. Pokemon is real!
Sandra Dodd: Some parents getting pissy will keep a grandchild from inheriting.
Virginia Warren: I am ungoogleable. There is a Warren County, Virginia.
Sandra Dodd: I don't want to cut off anyone's future funding.
Virginia Warren: I am the source of funding.
Rippy: I never thought of that.
Rippy: 
Sandra Dodd: And you said you're ungooglable, and you're a gamer?
Sandra Dodd: Put quotation marks around "Virginia Warren" and that county falls away. Add unschooling and you might pop up like a cork.
Rippy: I googled you Virginia: http://sandradodd.com/chats/regrets.html
Rippy: I googled you Virginia: http://sandradodd.com/chats/regrets.html
Robin B.: My mum is no longer living, but I know there are ways she was that I'm not as good at. Other things, I've improved. Sometimes, I could tell she was wistful for what she might have done as a mother, when she watched me (in my especially good moments!).
Sandra Dodd: Rippy, I wish that's the way things were!
Sandra Dodd: Blizzard Entertainment bought some sort of health-program bracelets for their employees, that count footsteps and maybe heartbeat? Maybe just footsteps. And they get the information into a graph on a computer. And they get credit for walking a certain number of steps a day.
Virginia Warren: Well, okay then. I guess I can't imagine anyone being that interested in me.
Sandra Dodd: When you said you couldn't be googled, Virginia, I sat up like a prairie dog and thought "Joyce could find her!" and then thought what the hell… I can find her.
Sandra Dodd: When you said you couldn't be googled, Virginia, I sat up like a prairie dog and thought "Joyce could find her!" and then thought what the hell… I can find her.
Sandra Dodd: Kirby said when the personnel person came to his group to distribute and explain them, everyone listened politely and as soon as she left, the chatter and speculation and engineering started. How can they get those points without actually walking? They had just distributed a game to gamers.
Rippy: Ha! Did Kirby and his team figure it out yet?
Sandra Dodd: I don't think they're actually cheating much. But one person can wear two bracelets while one person sleeps. That's the simplest. They had thought about putting them on moving appliances or just shaking the while they're sitting at work. They have desk jobs…
Rippy: I think they should get bonus credits for figuring those things out.
Robin B.: For me, in every stage of Senna's life, there have been things I needed to step back from. Deschooling not only means (for me) stepping back from school, but from some assumptions about how people "should" be. And usually when she hits an age or stage that I had trouble with, I need to examine my assumptions.
Robin B.: For me, in every stage of Senna's life, there have been things I needed to step back from. Deschooling not only means (for me) stepping back from school, but from some assumptions about how people "should" be. And usually when she hits an age or stage that I had trouble with, I need to examine my assumptions.
Sandra Dodd: Robin, that was hard for me.
But that was my problem for overlaying an imaginary child. I wanted them to be the best my imaginary child could be sometimes.
But that was my problem for overlaying an imaginary child. I wanted them to be the best my imaginary child could be sometimes.
Robin B.: One of those areas is being polite at all costs, often to my detriment. Senna knows when to be polite and when not to, but I've had to swallow hard, feeling very uncomfortable.
Sandra Dodd: But I have a growing list to look back on of times I thought "What the hell is THAT!?" and "that" (whatever it turned out to be—a hobby, toy, character trait, decision) turned out to be great, but it wasn't something I knew anything about or would have imagined.
Robin B.: Yup. Pokemon? OMG
Sandra Dodd: Holly keeps not matching up to my imaginary grown daughter lately.
Sandra Dodd: Holly keeps not matching up to my imaginary grown daughter lately.
Robin B.: Yes, the imaginary child.
Sandra Dodd: Damn me.
Robin B.: The grieving process is hard!
Rippy: I told Graham once that I could be the perfect parent, if I was the mom to my imaginary children and not my real life ones.
Sandra Dodd: I could be the perfect wife if Keith didn't make all these inexplicable decisions of his own.
Robin B.: Ha!
Marta Pires: Ha!
AlexPolikowsky4:
Rippy:
AlexPolikowsky4: So I kind of see how hard it is for Brian that his son is not doing any sports ( right now) when he is so talented in many. But I try to remind him that he is only 12 and people changed.
Sandra Dodd: Yesterday I listened to Charlton Heston's commentary on Ben Hur.
Robin B.: Actually, deschooling started as I began to gave birth. It was not what I expected, hoped for. And everything since has been a mix of "phew" and "I didn't expect that at all."
AlexPolikowsky4: At 12 I did not like working out or anything like that but when I turned 17 I loved it and I still do. But I was never forced or made to feel bad about it
Sandra Dodd: The horse trainer who taught him to drive a chariot was a stuntman and director of equestrian action stuff, and had a son who was a stuntman.
Virginia Warren: I've had a some painful conversations with my parents in the last few years. What I've learned from them is that they think they were just fine as parents, and they can't imagine what my problem could be.
AlexPolikowsky4: Ah Robin!! The day I gave birth to my son I told my boss( and sister in law) that in a week I would be organizing some of my paper work and if she needed anything I could do it.
Robin B.: Alex, I think Ross has gone through such a process. He didn't have a boy, but a girl who looked to be a likely race car driver (good balance, keen observation, well-coordinated). She wasn't/isn't interested in the least.
AlexPolikowsky4: But my son was not the baby I imagined. He did not sleep while I did stuff. He needed to be on the breast 24-7 almost!
Robin B.: Alex, I know! I took on a contract right after Senna was born. What a mistake!
Sandra Dodd: The same guy did Ben Hur and later El Cid. Charlton Heston wrote about the guy in his autobiography too (an edited diary, really, not a written book). But in this commentary, about the chariot race, and the stuntman (Joe Canutt) whose father was also a stuntman (Jakima Canutt), Heston said (might be an exact quote but is close): "He is the best athlete I ever knew, though he never played a single sport."
AlexPolikowsky4: Yeah Robin I so get it!
Sandra Dodd: And Charlton Heston was that kind of athlete. Between movies they did family vacations that involved canoeing and hiking and climbing and horses, I think I remember (definitely the hikes with boats).
AlexPolikowsky4: So he was probably physically very athletic but did not do sports. I get that.
Sandra Dodd: But Brian is athletic, in what he does—when he is coordinated and graceful and strong and energy-efficient in his movements. It's just that "athletic" is so tied up with sports, and we don't have a better word for strength and stamina. There are people who do amazing yoga but have nothing to do with competitive sports.
AlexPolikowsky4: But for a dad that loves and wishes he could have dome more in sports . He did a lot but there is a limit because of his back ( for those that do not know Brian was born with scoliosis and kyphosis in her spinal cord and had a huge surgery at 13 to straighten and fuse several of his vertebrae. He was growing and bending more and it was going to crush his lungs.
AlexPolikowsky4: it is the living vicariously through your children.
Virginia Warren: After being told, and thinking if myself as "not athletic" for 30 years, I have an intensely athletic hobby and I love it.
Sandra Dodd: Virginia what is this current hobby of yours?
Virginia Warren: Sandra, Roller Derby.
Robin B.: Yes, there are hula dancers who have stamina and grace, but they look nothing like the conventional athlete.
AlexPolikowsky4: Yes Look at this amazing pole dancer: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=699108843490838&set=vb.329129757155417&type=2&theater
Virginia Warren: When I hear an adult say "I'm just not good at X" I usually have a vision of an adult standing over a kid version of them saying "You're just not good at X."
Virginia Warren: Love that video Alex.
Robin B.: Wow, she's cool, Alex.
Robin B.: Oh, Virginia. That's a really good point.
Sandra Dodd: Is there a single word for these things?
Sandra Dodd: "Physical" doesn't do it.
Virginia Warren: Negative self talk is such a mental trap.
Sandra Dodd: "Stamina and grace" isn't a word.
Sandra Dodd: "Has kinesthetic intelligence" is awkward.
Virginia Warren: I've heard "athleticism". A combo of power, grace, endurance, skill and knowledge.
Sandra Dodd: Keith took diving classes in college and really, really liked it.
Sandra Dodd: He doesn't like to swim, really—not for fun. But he loved to dive. He likes to play in the water, but not to swim laps, like competitive "swimming."
Sandra Dodd: Athleticism! That's it. Thanks.
AlexPolikowsky4: These are several different athletes and different body types: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/19...
Robin B.: I know two unschooling moms who skate in roller derby!
Virginia Warren: I'm a ref.
Sandra Dodd: There are some kids, in Florida. Maybe the mom, too.
AlexPolikowsky4: Yep I know two unschooling \moms that do that too Virginia.
Sandra Dodd: Still, "athleticism" is based on "athlete" which is all about competing. One winner, many "losers."
Sandra Dodd: Keith's sport in his adult life has been SCA combat. He is getting too old to last long, now. He's sad about that. But when he's come in second in a tournament and I've been happy and said "second!" he has said "lost."
Sandra Dodd: Virginia, maybe you could invite these other roller-derby unschoolers for some sort of roller skating gathering!
AlexPolikowsky4: My son wants to do Medieval Combat. There is a group training tomorrow afternoon we are probably going. The only classes are up in the Twin cities but they don't take anyone 16 and under.
Sandra Dodd: There's a roller dome a mile and a half from my Albuquerque conference site. Roller Skate City (formerly Roller King) Holly is saying from the other room.
Virginia Warren: That sounds like a ton of fun.
Robin B.: My husband quotes another race driver "Second is the first of the losers."
AlexPolikowsky4: Was that Niki Lauda?
Robin B.: I could have been, Alex. It was something he would say, for sure.
AlexPolikowsky4: Was that Niki Lauda?
Robin B.: I could have been, Alex. It was something he would say, for sure.
Sandra Dodd: That 16 age, Alex, is about sports injuries.
AlexPolikowsky4: Yes they told us it is pretty brutal.
Sandra Dodd: sword and shield combat messes up elbows, shoulders, knees.
Robin B.: When my hula group competed for the first time (last month!) we finished second. We were disappointed. I'm not sure what that says about us....
AlexPolikowsky4: I think it was him! I just saw the movie remember!
Robin B.: Right!!!
Sandra Dodd: So "non-competitive athleticism" is way too long a phrase.
Sandra Dodd: So "non-competitive athleticism" is way too long a phrase.
Sandra Dodd: But if he were to become someone's squire, he could be tourney-side for lots of things, and get to help with the weapons and armor, and be known by some of the other people when he is old enough. That would be helpful.
Robin B.: He could be the strategist, Sandra!
Sandra Dodd: Seriously, Robin, some of the side coaching for SCA combat is remembering what opening moves a guy is likely to use, and whether he's more likely to back up, back up, or to rush forward, and if he could start paying attention to things like that, he could help the knight he squired to AND be more ready when he was old enough. Some guys never learn those things.
Robin B.: Yes. I know when Ross coaches other drivers, he talks about what another driver is likely to do.
Sandra Dodd: Lots of good things were written today!
Sandra Dodd: Coaching is a whole additional layer, huh?
Robin B.: Yes, indeed.
Sandra Dodd: Probably these chats exist to coach future coaches. I don't like to say so much.
Marta Pires: Tons of good things!
Robin B.: They're helpful!
Sandra Dodd: There are people in the chats who have seen enough unschoolers starting out to know what advice they could use, or to see when they're stepping awkwardly. Or when they're carrying around memories that aren't helping.
Virginia Warren: Being competitive is optional. The Derby team I'm with us strictly small potatoes. Our last home game, we lost the bout by many, many points. But everybody on our team was delighted because we had the game in a beautiful, prestigious venue, with a great turnout. Nobody felt like we lost. Not a bit.
Robin B.: Virginia, we've since been able to see our 2nd place as something really good. It felt bad in the moment. We set ourselves up, a bit.
Robin B.: Virginia, we've since been able to see our 2nd place as something really good. It felt bad in the moment. We set ourselves up, a bit.
Sandra Dodd: So looking more deeply at the why and how of unschooling, some of you become better unschoolers, and some of you (the same ones, or different ones) become better coaches.
Sandra Dodd: Good for me!
Sandra Dodd: If there are enough other people able to help new unschoolers, I can retire someday.
Robin B.: Yay, Sandra!!
Jill Parmer: Thanks for the chat, and all your work, Sandra. See you next week.
Robin B.: I don't know if enough of us have your perseverance, though!
Sandra Dodd: In music competitions when I was a teen, our director was very cool. It was "let's do the best we can," and if we didn't win, we looked at the winners as something to try to emulate—what did they do that maybe we could do too?
Virginia Warren: Thanks everybody.
Robin B.: It's a very good way to look at it.
Robin B.: Bye Virginia!
Sandra Dodd: Unschoolers can do that with other unschoolers.
Robin B.: If you're going, that is.
Sandra Dodd: Not resent families "doing better," but lift their ideas.
Virginia Warren:
Sandra Dodd: Bye! Thank you for contributions to this especially good chat!
Sandra Dodd: thank you, Marta, VERY much for all your help.
Marta Pires: 
Sandra Dodd: Have a good day, wherever you all are.
