The announcement before the chat:
Karen Lundy made this art, and wrote:
I saw "Honest Conversation Hearts from Parents" that weren't so nice. So I made some new ones to share for Valentine's Day:
(I should add some of these were inspired by Joyce Kurtak Fetteroll's Unschooling Toolbox!)
The chat this Thursday will be about peaceful parenting. You might be inspired by the sweet messages above,
and maybe listen to this podcast on peace and unschooling:
http://unschoolingsupport.com/peace/
or you could read here:
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully.
The chat:
Sandra Dodd left this message
February 18, 2016
Peaceful Parenting
Peaceful Parenting
PLEASE NOTE:
Transcripts are saved for others to read, so be thoughtful about what you share.
Transcripts are saved for others to read, so be thoughtful about what you share.
Megan Valnes: Hi Marta
Marta Venturini: Hi Megan! So nice to "see" you here! :)
Megan Valnes: You too! I got a babysitter for this special event :)
Marta Venturini: Cool! These chats are pretty great. ;)
Megan Valnes: I've only ever done one and had to leave early because the baby was crying or something along those lines...
Marta Venturini: I've learned a lot with them too.
Megan Valnes: I'm excited!
Marta Venturini: Hi Robin and Parvine!
Parvine joined the chat 21 hours ago
Parvine: Hi! :)
Amber joined the chat 21 hours ago
Sandra Dodd joined the chat 21 hours ago
Sandra Dodd: Three minutes late. I was writing something for Always Learning. It's probably still in my cut-and-paste hand. My invisible internet hand. :-)
Sandra Dodd: And there are very few there that are fluff, or off topic, because that’s the way the group has always been. :-) http://sandradodd.com/alwayslearning/posts It’s probably the best unschooling discussion that ever has been, or ever will be. I didn’t know it when I started it, but I was in just about every one before that, and many people have come to this one, or come back to it after being in others, and said there’s nothing comparable.
Megan Valnes: And that's why I got a babysitter for today :)
Megan Valnes: So happy to be here.
Sandra Dodd: (About posts on the Always Learning list. I think that post I just made will be # #76759
AlexP joined the chat
Sandra Dodd: The chats are more likely to go off topic, though, Megan. Sorry.
Marta Venturini: Always Learning has been life-changing!
Megan Valnes: Please don't be sorry!
Sandra Dodd: Always Learning, though, is SERIOUS! Happy, but serious.
Amber: Do you also have a similar page - about the best use of this chat? :)
Sandra Dodd: No and for some reason something I do on this keyboard causes my posts to double sometimes.
Megan Valnes: Wherever this convo goes, I know I will leave the chat a better unschooling parent!
Sandra Dodd: So I'm not even the best at this chat. :-)
Megan Valnes: And I will have learned lots ;)
Jill Parmer joined the chat
Marta Venturini: It happens to me all of the time, Megan! I always learn something new.
Megan Valnes: Always Learning has been a most invaluable resource.
AlexP: hello!
Sandra Dodd: I have mentioned somewhere a time or two (on the writing page? in here?) that this chat uses something that school never EVER taught.
Marta Venturini: Hi Alex!
Megan Valnes: Hi Alex!
Marta Venturini: Hi Jill!
Sandra Dodd: But many workplaces need it. And it's still not taught.
Robin B. joined the chat
Megan Valnes: Ok, what's that?
Sandra Dodd: Real-time writing.
Robin B.: Hi, all.
Sandra Dodd: DOH!
Megan Valnes: Lol
Sandra Dodd: Kirby used it when he was a gamemaster (term, please, Jill?) for World of Warcraft.
Sandra Dodd: He was talking to people, sometimes in a kind of gamey/gamish patois, in character a bit (if they started it that way).
Sandra Dodd: He was doing serious in-game assistance, in a light-seeming way.
Megan Valnes: I love livechats
Sandra Dodd: When I was in school, the only real-time writing was passing notes secretly from kid to kid. :-)
Robin B.: Senna does real-time writing when she role plays on-line with friends.
Megan Valnes: I have to refrain myself from getting into the convos when my kids are playing Roblox.
Sandra Dodd: Even short-answer tests, in school, the teachers practically beg the kids to keep the paper until the end and proofread it.
Sandra Dodd: Yes. And so gaming online, from early online days, might have been the first sort of speed-entry thing. :-)
Sandra Dodd: Even here, we can stop and proofread before sending, but when things go quickly, there's just not time.
Sandra Dodd: And so some people can no more be in one of these chats than I could play football. Not fast enough.
Sylvia Woodman joined the chat
Sylvia Woodman: Here I am!
Megan Valnes: Hmmm, yes, I never thought of that.
Jill Parmer: Game Master is the right word.
Sandra Dodd: (Thanks, Jill.)
Sandra Dodd: Here I'm a star and no goalie can stop me. :-) But that's because it's something I've done for a long time.
Megan Valnes: Hello Sylvia!
Marta Venturini: ;) Sylvia
Sandra Dodd: These days, Kirby's doing that online help (and phone, and e-mail) for Honeywell employees and their computers.
Megan Valnes: haha! You're the star quarterback!
Sandra Dodd: No personna-talk, no swords, no armor. Boring.
Sandra Dodd: But pays well and he got a promotion today.
Megan Valnes: Oh nice
Jill Parmer: A lot of the Game Masters would tell us jokes when we were chatting with them.
Megan Valnes: He was at Blizzard, right?
Amber: I don't know, pretty sure I've had customer service phone calls that had personality.
Marta Venturini: Congratulations Kirby!
AlexP: I have seen sandra type and chat type in person! She is supersonic!
Megan Valnes: I even love live chatting with customer service peeps
Megan Valnes: and I love texting
Sandra Dodd: So for those who don't mind confusion (when three conversations weave back and forth like a car chase), or who can type fast and think fast and won't get a headache, this can be fun, in a mental-gymnastics way.
Megan Valnes: something about the written word...
Sandra Dodd: But it's not for everybody, I know.
Sylvia Woodman: Yes this chat took some getting used to for me.
Sylvia Woodman: At first.
Amber: Typing fast surely helps
Jill Parmer: My favorite GM message when parting was... May you walk in peace and may your enemies walk in pieces!
Sylvia Woodman: But now I really enjoy the pace.
Sandra Dodd: Right. Kirby worked at Blizzard for eight years (or nine...). I don't have numbers.
Marta Venturini: I really love the chats, as you know Sandra. ;) (even if I don't write that much -- I prefer to read and learn with you all!)
Megan Valnes: Wow, how has the change been? He just recently moved back to NM...is he enjoying his new job?
Marta Venturini: Ha! That's so funny, Jill. :)
Sandra Dodd: He was a manager of game masters after the first couple of years, so he got to encourage them and jolly them up. There would be two managers of each team. One was businesslike stuff (hours, infractions) and Kirby was more training and happiness. :-)
Megan Valnes: Jill, I love that parting line!
Amber: when I was in college, in the mid-90s, online gaming was text based - I got pretty darn fast at typing from that
Megan Valnes: haha, I have to remember that
Megan Valnes: I was never a gamer before my kids aside from Sonic the Hedgehog that my brother owned.
Sylvia Woodman: Sometimes I get into very deep conversations with people in customer service. Years ago after my mom died, I had to make a bunch of phone calls to cancel her Newspapers and such and I got one woman who had also recently lost her mom and we had a very deep and moving conversation. We were both weeping by the end of it.
Megan Valnes: But I did online chat way back in the AOL days
Amber: aww Sylvia
Megan Valnes: Awww. :(
Megan Valnes: I like to make customer service people laugh because then they want to help me more :)
Sandra Dodd: Unschooling chats, Megan? On AOL?
Megan Valnes: No, not unschooling chats
Megan Valnes: I was in high school
Megan Valnes: More like making friends in other states chats
Sandra Dodd: I did a two-hour chat every week on AOL and then those files could be downloaded (if they were good, after I edited them, they were put in the download area).
Megan Valnes: I don't even remember the basis for why we were chatting...?
Sandra Dodd: I used to get a mother's-helper to my house for those two hours each week.
Megan Valnes: Yep, I have a babysitter today
Sandra Dodd: I was going to say that... SO EVERYBODY! Megan is paying to be here (paying the babysitter), so make it a good one.:-)
Marta Venturini: :)
Megan Valnes: The baby is finally on a regular nap schedule, which is right about now, and the kids and I are taking a break from lots of activities, so I thought I should really join these chats!
Robin B.: :-)
Sandra Dodd: Sorry I went on telling stories after we had ten people here. That violates the protocol I made up myself. Sorry.
Megan Valnes: Haha!!
Amber: oh dear. pressure!
Megan Valnes: You heard the Quarterback ladies, make it worth my money!
AlexP: I used to chat on ICQ with a group of people. There were some nice people there. I remember going to Brazil and getting money from a man that wanted soccer shirts for his grandkids! I bought them and shipped it to him when I got back. Cool to make friends likes this and just talk
Sandra Dodd: Kirby is happy to be back in New Mexico, but the job isn't as sparkly, nor as impressive to tell people about.
Sylvia Woodman: These days it's impressive just to be working and making enough to cover the bills.
Sandra Dodd: Nice, Alex. My kids were in an AOL-chatroom based game called AON—Alliance of Nations. VERY elaborate role-playing game, managed by people who created it like one would a D&D game, but it could be as many people as joined.
Megan Valnes: Yes, it is
Serah joined the chat
Megan Valnes: So many young adults are really struggling to get by. Why did he leave Texas?
Sandra Dodd: They reported activities. There were "inns" and battle places (don't remember the name) and people could meet in private rooms for battles or conversations, or go to the public rooms to do parts of questions.
AlexP: Gigi does some role play on instragram but i dont think it is that fast. But both kids are super fast typers from gaming
Sandra Dodd: And Marty was still learning to write.
AlexP: Cool! Roblox was where Daniel learned to read and type really fast!
Megan Valnes: Yes, Roblox has great chat rooms
Sandra Dodd: He left Texas to get away from some of his fiancee's family's problems and pressures. To get Devyn to a new and different environment. And because he missed having his own relatives to help (and maybe to be better examples).
Megan Valnes: I get all crazy with them though
Megan Valnes: Oohh that's so wonderful, Sandra!
Sandra Dodd: Marty loves economics, and everything related to that.
AlexP: it is amazing. They have chat rooms now Megan< This as 10 years ago so not chat room. Chatting while playing!
Megan Valnes: That's a good man.
Robin B.: ~ And because he missed having his own relatives to help (and maybe to be better examples).~ Which brings us to Peaceful Parenting!!
Megan Valnes: Yes, when I watch my kids play, I get really involved with the chats
Sandra Dodd: He said that 30 is the new 21—that in the late 20th century people could actually go out into the world successfully as adults, but now for many reasons 30 is where that break seems to be.
Megan Valnes: They think I'm weird
Sandra Dodd: So it makes sense that the rules about keeping kids on insurance longer are there.
Megan Valnes: Wow
Robin B.: He's right, I think, Sandra.
Sandra Dodd: So it can hep to know that, too, as children get older.
Megan Valnes: I'm only 34, but I grew up pretty fast
Sandra Dodd: We were sitting our count-down, or our imagined timelines to 18, really, because unschooling seemed like a school overlay. And our kids have all been different.
Megan Valnes: I wonder if part of the reason is that kids don't know what the heck they want after high school
Sandra Dodd: But it helped for us to be willing to let them launch in their own way and times.
AlexP: Yes. More friends with kids at home still in their 20,s and still trying out different things! Which I think it is great for some!!!
Megan Valnes: And it seems like your kids did launch before 30...
Sandra Dodd: Megan, I don't think that's it. I think in some ways it doesn't matter what they want—they can't have it. They can't afford it. They won't be given a chance.
Megan Valnes: Ah ha
Sandra Dodd: Probably some of it has to do with the baby boomers, who are just now retiring.
Megan Valnes: I see
MaryinCO joined the chat
Megan Valnes: I was thinking that maybe because they are unsure of themselves and the outside world, they have trouble with the launch aprt
Megan Valnes: part
Sandra Dodd: When I was 21, there weren't nearly so many older people in the workforce, in houses, not dying and shaking loose of their houses and money. :-)
Megan Valnes: I have 4 19-21 year olds in my life
Sandra Dodd: Marty didn't tell me that, I just thought it up myself so I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
Megan Valnes: I have a 19 and 21 yo niece, a 21 yo little sister, and a 21 yo babysitter
Sandra Dodd: It's about the world itself, not about desire or angst or preparation.
Sandra Dodd: They can hardly buy a car or house, in their early 20's.
AlexP: exactly
Megan Valnes: 3 of them are on their own
Sandra Dodd: People my age bought cars pretty easily.
Megan Valnes: but they have no choice, really
Sandra Dodd: Marty stayed home until he was 24, usually working fulltime but not always.
Sandra Dodd: Holly left at 17, came back, and has been in and out since. :-)
Megan Valnes: :)
Megan Valnes: I like the fact that the option is there
Megan Valnes: and happily there, not with a price attached
Robin B.: Senna is at home. Almost 21. Not working. It's fine. :-)
Sandra Dodd: I can't say for sure she's out. She has two rooms with her stuff in, with beds she owns. TWO. Sheesh!
Marta Venturini: :)
Megan Valnes: My dad would have helped me financially, but that meant he would have also had control over my life because that's how he is
Sandra Dodd: But she's living in Española, my home town.
Megan Valnes: Anyway, I fought like crazy with my parents, so I got out at 17
Megan Valnes: That will not be the case with my kids
Megan Valnes: Peaceful parenting :)
AlexP: Amazingly my husband stayed home until he was about 28 and his brother the same. His brother moved out when he married a single mom of 3 and Brian moved when the family bought that little house acrross the strret from the farm. So he would be at the farm still
Megan Valnes: I will welcome my children in our home until they're ready to go
Sandra Dodd: My dad would've helped me more without control, but he didn't have much money. He paid for my room and board when I was in college, and I took loans for tuition. That worked. But he died when I was in my mid-20's, and never had much money anyway.
Sandra Dodd: We can help our kids and we're happy to do it.
Robin B.: My husband, too, Megan. My parents were happy to have me living at home until I wanted to move.
Sandra Dodd: So...
Sandra Dodd: Peaceful parenting starting places?
AlexP: Sandra i did like Holly and moved in and out since 17
Sandra Dodd: Don't talk too much.
Parvine: Its wonderful to be able to provide them with options, be there for them and have a space if and when returning.
Sukayna joined the chat
Sandra Dodd: Mean things make hard memories.
Robin B.: Yes.
Megan Valnes: Yes!
Sandra Dodd: It can be temping to vent and dump and "express yourself honestly."
Sandra Dodd: Don't do it if you can help it.
Megan Valnes: Yes
Megan Valnes: ugh
Sandra Dodd: Get a therapist if you want to spew forth. Don't gift it to your partner, nor to your children!
Megan Valnes: I do like a triple-check before my thoughts come out of my mouth--usually anyway
Sandra Dodd: That might be the whole thing. :-)
Megan Valnes: I'm learning
Sukayna: So with soon to be three teenagers around here I wonder is
Amber: I've been holding stuff back - from the Always Learning list - all weekend! I posted to my private blog just to get it out somewhere :)
AlexP: Dont talk to much and when you do be very very mindful of your words
Sandra Dodd: And people will say that's unhealthy, that's dishonest, it's good to express our emotions.
Megan Valnes: I'm naturally a blunt person
Sandra Dodd: But that's "support" of bullshit, honestly.
Megan Valnes: My mother always told me I could use a little "tact"
Megan Valnes: I'm finally learning that!!
Sukayna: sorry if there is anything more than breathing when sometimes hormones seem fo come on so strong for the kids :-)
Sandra Dodd: Because one person can only take in so many cutting, hurtful things before they don't care about that person anymore.
Megan Valnes: That's my goal right now--to just be nice
Megan Valnes: I don't always have to say what I'm thinking
Robin B.: if there is anything more than breathing when sometimes hormones seem fo come on so strong for the kids [smile]
Sukayna: You are right about the limit to hurtfulness
Sylvia Woodman: ==-==I don't always have to say what I'm thinking==-== THIS was a game changer for me!!!!
Robin B.: You mean what else to do, Sukayna?
Sandra Dodd: Sukayna, do you mean for the mom to do? Or for the mom to recommend to the kids?
Sukayna: Yes- I mean sometimes they are shocked and sort of overreacting and I want to just hug rhem but that is not always what they are ready for
AlexP: Sukayna yes. I have a 13 year old that has moments he is great and moments that he is more explosive and angry. Keeping quiet is best. I still some times talk too much . It does not help
Megan Valnes: Yes, Sylvia, I have a thick noggin, but I'm finally starting to get it
Sukayna: When they see injustice or things that really upset them- big, mature emotions
Megan Valnes: My 9 yo (who is entering puberty) spent about 1 hour yesterday screaming at me, slamming her door
Megan Valnes: She was so upset
Robin B.: But Alex is doing something sweet today for her son. She's cleaning her kitchen, because Daniel seems to eat more when things are clean! Tuning in to that kind of thing is wonderful.
Sukayna: So just quiet, calm being available?
Megan Valnes: I was proud that I did not react
Megan Valnes: I just let her get it out and she eventually calmed down and had a great rest of the day
Sandra Dodd: -=-When they see injustice or things that really upset them- big, mature emotions-=-
Sandra Dodd: -=-When they see injustice or things that really upset them- big, mature emotions-=-
Megan Valnes: I think talking too much is the kiss of death.
Sukayna: Well, I bought a new blender for smoothies fo fasting kids on a hot day :)
AlexP: Super clean. and it is hard in my house to keep things clean! My refrigerator is sparklig now! He will love that.
Sandra Dodd: Their emotions are mature? Or they are wildly reacting with emotions they aren't able to really "drive" yet?
Megan Valnes: Yay, Alex!
AlexP: He even tried to make panckaes yesterday! There were no dishes in the sink so he was inpired
Sandra Dodd: Fasting will make anyone more prone to explostion too, right? Or at least people who need more protein or sugar or something.
Megan Valnes: This component of lack of maturity to deal with certain emotions is just making more sense to me
Serah: Alex, that is great that you were able to pick up on that.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe arrange your day so that in the last few hours before they can eat, they have something quiet, peaceful...
Sandra Dodd: Serah! Ideas?
Megan Valnes: I had forgotten that kids just can't deal with things the way I can...they don't have the tools
Sukayna: I mean mature issues- seeing things out of their control, injustices and wrongs, and not yet being mature enough to know it will pass
Sukayna: They are really peaceful when fasting
Sukayna: I mean in general- i remember my 17 y o at 14 was like my 14 yo is now
Sandra Dodd: Another thing that none of us can change, that must certainly be natural and instinctive and adaptive, is the assuredness late teens and young 20's people have that their ideas are AWESOME and better than ANYTHING ever thought before by living man.
AlexP: peace at home is very important. I think mom sets the tone. If you are peaceful and present and mindful it helps everyone.
Megan Valnes: Exactly, Sandra
Sandra Dodd: I remember the (over)confidence I had at 21.
Megan Valnes: So do I
Sukayna: Sometimes really able and others like she is about to scream, and cannot or does not know how to tell me what would help
Megan Valnes: I knew everything
Serah: its difficult even for some adults to see the injustices that are happening.
Sukayna: Yes! I was wons
Sandra Dodd: So there's no sense shaming them for thinking they know everything, if the parents know that it's normal and that they'll grow out of it by 30.
Serah: by being peaceful with yourself and whomever you come into contact with helps to make smaller differences with each interaction
Megan Valnes: Maybe let the kids know that they CAN do something to make the world a better place, even if it's small
Megan Valnes: Being kind to others, creating a peaceful home
Megan Valnes: Bringing joy into other's lives
Sukayna: wondering if anyone had better ideas for being with her- this is rare, an outburst, but still, I want to help
AlexP: Listen to kids when they want to talk about those things that arae bothering. Listen, dont talk. Ask questions in the end. Empathize. Listen more.
Serah: yeah, exactly, Megan
Megan Valnes: Yes, Alex
Megan Valnes: Listening without offering lots of advice
Megan Valnes: That's challenging for me
Megan Valnes: I want to give advice
Sukayna: Ok so back to not talking too much :-)
Megan Valnes: I have to really refrain
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes when my kids have wild emotions and I know I can't fix it and I know that reasoning would just piss them off, I say "If I had magic, I would fix it." Some small version of acknowledging that I would if I could make their fears disappear.
Robin B.: Choose to refrain, Megan!
Sukayna: I still think i can or should make it all better
AlexP: yes don't give advice unless your child asks and most time they just want to share and for you to listen.
Robin B.: The old "have to"...
Sukayna: Ok excellent thanks
Megan Valnes: Listening, validating their feelings "I can see this really frustrates you. Tell me about it."
AlexP: Validating feelings can sound very condescending. and too much talking again.
Sandra Dodd: It's hard for me not to offer unwanted advice. Marty said our whole family does that, and Ashlee had pointed it out to him.
Sukayna: I think i have been but this is all good- refresher
Megan Valnes: Yes, CHOICE
Megan Valnes: Thank you Robin!!
Sandra Dodd: We're used to telling the others what they could do, and (maybe) we're good at nodding and ignoring most of it. :-)
Robin B.: Yes, too much talking still "I can see that this really frustrates you." It is making an assumption.
Megan Valnes: What would you say, Robin?
Marta Venturini: I do that too -- offering unwanted advice -- but I'm getting better at not doing it, thanks to Sandra's radical unschooling discussions.
Sandra Dodd: I advise against this, but maybe my daughter-in-law would say I'm always advising people about something.
Sandra Dodd: "Megan Valnes: Listening, validating their feelings "I can see this really frustrates you. Tell me about it.""
Robin B.: And especially if they don't want to tell you about it right then, you can shut everything down.
Sukayna: Yes! I dont want to assume or talk too much, or seem disinterested or unaffected either
AlexP: i that way Sandra. I stil am that way. I have however gotten better about when and how to give advice for my husband and kids. And when they do not want to hear I can usually shut up now. 1o years ago I could not
Sandra Dodd: That sounds like 1970's-psychologist reading-from-the-script talk, not like real conversation between people.
AlexP: Megan dont say. Listen. Unless they ask.
Robin B.: It's a continual choice thing. To be quiet, if you're prone to advice-giving. :-)
Sandra Dodd: In England, they make the person a cup of tea.
Sukayna: Exactly!
Sandra Dodd: No matter what the person is grumpy about, tea.
Megan Valnes: Okay, yes
Robin B.: I like the tea.
Sandra Dodd: it gets the other person out of the room for a minute.
Megan Valnes: Maybe offer a cookie then?
Sandra Dodd: It lets the upset person know that something substantial and warm is being done.
Sandra Dodd: FOR THEM.
Sukayna: Sometimes i leave but ina mellow way
Sandra Dodd: Then they're holding a warm thing, steaming. Seriously, it's like magic.
Sandra Dodd: :-)
Megan Valnes: When my kids are really upset, they usually don't want anything
Amber: Mmm tea.
Megan Valnes: I love tea, but they don't
Marta Venturini: Oh how I wish I liked tea! ;)
Sukayna: But making her sometime
Megan Valnes: They do like coffee though :)
Sukayna: Something sounds good
Robin B.: In answer to your question, Megan, I would try to say nothing. Nod my head in sympathy. Say "hmm." Make a cup of tea.
Sukayna: Sorry ipad typos!
Megan Valnes: okay
Robin B.: I don't do it well, all the time.
Megan Valnes: When my little ones are crying and upset, it's easy to help them
AlexP: What do you mean you leave Sukayna?
Megan Valnes: But my older ones, I want to be empathetic and helpful
Sukayna: I mean take a short break to another room
Megan Valnes: But, I was never taught these tools
Sandra Dodd: I think not stand and stare at someone who's upset or ranting.
Sandra Dodd: I leave, sometimes.
Sandra Dodd: Megan...
Robin B.: Yes, that, too.
Sandra Dodd: We're not "teaching you tools."
Megan Valnes: I'm unsure of how to react
Sukayna: Sort of without the tea but if she clearly doesnt want to talk
Sandra Dodd: I feel crowded if I'm throwing a fit and people stay very close to me.
Sandra Dodd: I don't want to be hugged.
Sandra Dodd: I want them to shut the windows so the neighbors can't hear me.
Sukayna: She indicates she doesnt want to so i try to give her room to recollect or calm down without me iif that helps
Megan Valnes: I'm trying to learn how to be more helpful for my kids
Sandra Dodd: Feed my cat that's meowing at me.
AlexP: Absolutely. My son will ask to leave right away. Not that I wait for him to say.
Sandra Dodd: I want them near but not THERE.
Sandra Dodd: I was flipping out one season and Jill came to my house, and that was wonderful.
Megan Valnes: Yes
Sandra Dodd: She saved me.
Sukayna: Yes sandra nd a,ex
Megan Valnes: I noticed my daughter went to her room yesterday but was still hollering for me
Sukayna: And alex
Megan Valnes: But if I went into her room, she was angry and shouting at me
Megan Valnes: So I folded laundry outside of her room in the hallway and she slowly came out
Megan Valnes: and played with the baby and suddenly everything was okay
Jill Parmer: I was so sorry you were flipping out, but it was nice being there.
Sandra Dodd: I hope nobody's thinking anyone comes to a point of perfection. Holly and I can still rush to say mean things before we calm down. We know we can calm down. I know I can, anyway, but sometimes I choose to CUT HER (verbally) because my adrenaline is bigger than my brains.
AlexP: Sometimes kids need you near NOT talking. Just there . SOmetimes people want and need to be alone. Sometimes distraction helps.
Megan Valnes: Yes
Sukayna: I have made huge strides in that way,most of the time. It is them, the big adrenaline or hormones i suppose
AlexP: Sometimes my daughter wants a hug. sometimes she does not want for me to even touch her. Sometimes dad is who she needs. Sometimes me.
Sandra Dodd: Breathing takes adrenaline down. Slow deep breaths. Start with the out breath. Empty, first.
Sukayna: I worry and i love them
Megan Valnes: Right, no perfection.
Sandra Dodd: Don't try to breathe in and hold while you already have air in there. It won't help.
Megan Valnes: Me too Sukayna
Sandra Dodd: First dump your old air.
Sandra Dodd: and huff out the last of it. That's the only way to get new, fresh oxygen in there to help you undo the power to pick up a tractor or hurt your loved ones.
Megan Valnes: I want them to have happy memories
Megan Valnes: There is always something going on my life with the kids, I sometimes get stressed and react thoughtlessly.
Sandra Dodd: And you always will, Megan. You will always until you die, I think, get stressed and react too quickly and regret it.
Sukayna: I mean what if the kids dont want to breathe? They feel justified and later regret being upset? Infrequently, but still, disturbing for me
Sandra Dodd: So the thing to do is to minimize those.
Sandra Dodd: Make those instances rarities.
Megan Valnes: The stressful instances?
AlexP: You have many kids Megan and little ones. My life with 2 kids is much easier than if I had many and a little kid. IT changes as they grow.
Sandra Dodd: I worry and I love Holly, so when I look back and see that the way I'm "showing" that is by over-advising her and pissing her off, I probably need some better options! ;-)
Sandra Dodd: First, your reactions.
Sukayna: Yes.
Sandra Dodd: At first, it's easy to see "stressful instances" as though they're as solid as potatoes, or books.
Megan Valnes: Yes, I'm definietly getting much better!
Sandra Dodd: As though they exist objectively.
Megan Valnes: Yes
Sandra Dodd: But after you get better at being calmer, you'll start to see the stressful instances with much less solidity.
AlexP: Sukayana it is not for the kids to breath. Although it is great if you can advice them in a calm moment to. But it is about you breathing. to keep your calm.
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes "a stressful instance" was created by lack of forethought.
Megan Valnes: Right
Sandra Dodd: OH NO, yeah, I missed that. Don't tell them to breathe.
Sandra Dodd: That's just more unwanted advice. It's for you.
Sandra Dodd: If they see you becoming ever more calm and patient, they might want to know how you did that, and they might ask for ideas about being more calm.
Megan Valnes: So, also, being able to see that maybe the situation isn't really stressful?
Robin B.: Yeah, that idea was lousy! I tried it. Doesn't work. :-)
AlexP: xactly
AlexP: Exactly
Megan Valnes: Yes
Sandra Dodd: We helped Kirby when he was younger, but he was receptive to it. Holly never was. Marty didn't need it. He was born calm.
Sukayna: Yes, but I was remembering you talking about Kirby, and managing anger and maybe thinking the age and changes are causing her to have huge feelings
Robin B.: The suggesting my kid breathe, I mean.
AlexP: If you get stressed leaving the house with many kids , start preping things ahead of time so you are not in a hurry rushing the kids.
Sandra Dodd: We helped Kirby when he was 9, 10. Not teens.
Megan Valnes: The mess on my floor, I can choose to feel stressed about it, or I can see the beauty in it.
AlexP: Make sure to have snaks and drinks in the car and a change of clothes for them.
Sukayna: Yes so i get the breathing was for me, but I want them to have peace tobe able to negotiate big emotions as they mature
Megan Valnes: Leaving the house is one of the situations, yes
Sandra Dodd: He was also involved in a formal Okiinawan sort of karate—very much on the spiritual, centering end of martial arts.
Sandra Dodd: So he wanted help to be peaceful. He's naturally volatile.
AlexP: Little things that cut down stress! Be prepared and dont leave things for the last minute
Sandra Dodd: But he's great at being calm with others.
Megan Valnes: And I try to plan ahead of time, but some things are just at the moment--shoes, etc. But, yes, when I prepare, it helps trememndously.
Megan Valnes: I'm actually very good at preparing
Megan Valnes: But the last minutes seem to get so crazy--and then if there's a fight over riding shotgun or where we're going
Sandra Dodd: I guess both aspects can help, with stressful moments. One is realizing it's probably NOT life or death, and you can tell your flight-or-fight self to relax. The other is seeing what you might do the next time to avoid a repeat.
Robin B.: And sometimes all the physical preparation in the world can't stop a kid's emotions. So having a way to help yourself before your kid, is good. That's preparation, too.
Megan Valnes: And recently, my oldest always wants to be with us
AlexP: Have extra shoes in the car. Get things in the car in advance so all the kids need to do is get in and go.
Robin B.: You know on the airlines? Put your mask on first, then help others!
Sandra Dodd: Another mom problem, with teens. It's possible (likely?) that the mom is having some hormonal upheavals of her own.
Megan Valnes: Right! And great idea, Alex!
Sandra Dodd: And the same way a teen can blame parents for the world being uncomfortable or unfair, a menopausal mom can blame her kids for pissing her off.
Megan Valnes: I'm still nursing and not getting the best sleep, so that's part of it.
Sandra Dodd: Or for not being sympathetic or understanding.
Sukayna: That could be as well...
Robin B.: Ha! Peri-menopause and menarche happened simultaneously here.
Megan Valnes: :)
Sandra Dodd: Extra stuff in the car made my life WAY better.
AlexP: YEs SaNDRA. i know I am having. or was. I am takinng care of that and I think it has helped quite a bit.
Robin B.: Yes!
Megan Valnes: I do think things will get much easier once the baby is not a baby anymore ;-)
Sukayna: Mostly I am reamining calm but inside i feel bad for her
Sukayna: Remaining
Sandra Dodd: And a backpack (first diaper bag, that evolved into a backpack) that always had some snacks, tissues, water, cloth (old gauze flat-diapers, which they don't even sell anymore, I don't think, but could be used for towels, washcloths...)
Sukayna: But i get that maybe that just happens and i can really only control myself
AlexP: Not that I was blaming my kids but I am calmer and less on edge so I am not going all flight or fight.
Sandra Dodd: Sukayna don't think of controlling yourself.
Sandra Dodd: http://sandradodd.com/control
Megan Valnes: I get edgy, that's the word. Sometimes it's just because there is always someone talking to ME
Sandra Dodd: It's too... controlling. :-)
Sukayna: Maybe i am seeing it as huge and it is just very normal and ok
Sandra Dodd: And if you decide to "control yourself," it's something you could decide you have failed to do.
Sandra Dodd: Then you get "failure."
Sukayna: No such thing as perfect peace,
Sandra Dodd: Making better choices... there might be four or ten choices you could make in just a five minute conversation.
Sukayna: Yes. I mean in terms of calm breathing and mindful reaction
Sandra Dodd: Each better choices will have results right then, and help you make another good choice, if you can remember to think of two things and choose.
Megan Valnes: My kids are young, they all like to talk at me. Sometimes, I just want a minute to think, but I have started reminding myself that this too shall pass and they won't always be so small and wanting my attention.
AlexP: Sukayna the chat last week had some great advice with teens. And If life is prickly for her now you can provide a safe place by keeping youself calm. Someone wrote that to me this past week one day my son got all upset at me.
Megan Valnes: And I love them so much
Sandra Dodd: -=-Maybe i am seeing it as huge and it is just very normal and ok-=-
Sandra Dodd: -=-Maybe i am seeing it as huge and it is just very normal and ok-=-
Sandra Dodd: What if it IS huge and inevitable? Then what?
AlexP: An hour later he was all good and chatty. Life can be hard for teens and their hormones.Make it peaceful. be their calm rock . Dont take it personaly
Sukayna: What Alex said- being the safe calm place
Sandra Dodd: Rather than define what the stressful moment is, look at how you can make the moment better. Just the moment. Not the hour, or day, or lifetime. Moment.
Robin B.: Yes.
Megan Valnes: Yes.
Sandra Dodd: Not from control, but from making one moment safer, calmer.
AlexP: YES!
Sandra Dodd: Two weeks ago, teens. http://chattranscripts.blogspot.com/2016...
Sandra Dodd: I added a note at the bottom of that, because we never did talk about teens' need for privacy
AlexP: Two weeks! I still have it so fresh in my mindl Great chat.
Sandra Dodd: Last week's on abundance was a good chat, I think.
Sukayna: Ok so in that scenario, maybe space or tea or something else would help, mostly just to stay calm and help her if she wants it?
AlexP: Yes it was a great chat about abundance!
Sandra Dodd: This one seems decent, too.
Megan Valnes: I need to read the transcripts on the abundance chat
Sandra Dodd: I think so, Sukayna.
Marta Venturini: Last week's chat was so great!
Sandra Dodd: Food that smells good can be soothing (if it's not a fast day)
Marta Venturini: (on abundance)
Sandra Dodd: Flowers, maybe. Candle. Something to look at that's pleasant and mesmerizing.
Megan Valnes: Peaceful parenting...what does that mean exactly? I live on the West Side of LA, so peaceful parenting can get convoluted over here...
Sandra Dodd: Kaleidoscope. Coloring book.
Megan Valnes: My oldest can become very upset very easily
Sandra Dodd: Water (shower, bath, laundry, water the garden)
Sandra Dodd: Megan, did you look at the links I sent out? Did you subscribe to chat notes?
Megan Valnes: I looked at the links, have not subscribed yet
Sukayna: i am really liking these suggestions...very creative! Thank you!
Sandra Dodd: Because you know English plenty well, so it means parenting in a peaceful way.
Megan Valnes: I will do after this
AlexP: Dont try to fix her. Or give her advise. Listen and help. IF she wants. for my son is doing something, finding his clothes and now I see he really trives when things are spakling clean and at this time of the year and being busy my house is not sparkling clean. But environment is important. My daughter does not see dirt but my son righ now it is all he sees
Megan Valnes: I understand that part, but I thought what I was doing was peaceful parenting, with the talking bit
Sandra Dodd: Do you mean to say you can't be expected to be any more peaceful than you are now because you live in a fast-paced or loud or rough neighborhood?
AlexP: Flowers! My son loved the flowers and took to his room!
Parvine: the term parenting peacefully for me means parenting from a peaceful place within myself.
Parvine: the term parenting peacefully for me means parenting from a peaceful place within myself.
Sukayna: Yes! That makes sense- i was worried about being "negligent" or not doing enough
Megan Valnes: No, because there's a lot of Waldorfy type peaceful parenting going on
Megan Valnes: Not a lot of radical unschoolerts
Sandra Dodd: If you think there is a peaceful parenting to do, and it's a think, that others can say "that was it! You did it!" then what will you do after that? :-)
Megan Valnes: Yes!
Megan Valnes: I have two great friends that are radical unschoolers and watching them has taught me so much
Megan Valnes: Ok, right now, my oldest is bothering his little brother.
Sandra Dodd: Not "think" (sorry)—THING
Sandra Dodd: If you think there is a peaceful parenting to do, and it's a thing, that others can say...
AlexP: Sukayna, special food for her. Bring her little gifts.
Sandra Dodd: Babysitters aren't magic. Go and hep!
Sandra Dodd: help!
Megan Valnes: Ok!
Sandra Dodd: Maybe bring the oldest to sit by you and draw or play with something quiet.
AlexP: little special things so she knows you are thinking of her
Sandra Dodd: Not as a punishment. As a safety for the brother.
Sandra Dodd: Let the younger one have the babysitter's fun attention for a while
Sukayna: I do give her lots of one to one time, which she craves being the middle child
Sukayna: And i try gifts, but yiu are right- maybe more of that for her
Sandra Dodd: Some kids like to have responsibility. Some feel like it's work and they won't want to don't have to, why are you asking me?
Sandra Dodd: But some teens, young teens, really like it when an adult needs them, for real.
Sukayna: She is 14 fo
Sandra Dodd: Maybe there's something you could ask her to do that's not busy-work, that's honest and needed. Maybe it would make her feel whole and important, in a way.
Sandra Dodd: If she's that kind of person.
Sukayna: 14 going on 20. Usually really calm and mature
Sandra Dodd: I learned that when I was teaching Jr. High.
Sukayna: She helps alot, volunteers cookkng
Sandra Dodd: Some kids can be restless and frustrated, but if you ask them to do a real thing, they become solid and focussed and grateful.
Sukayna: cooking or things
Sandra Dodd: Is there a box or cupboard or closet that needs to be reorganized?
Sandra Dodd: Do you have some towels or rags that should be hemmed, or sorted into good and not-so-good?
Sandra Dodd: Can't think of particulars, not knowing your house and stuff.
Sukayna: Yes, I can see that and I worry about over burdening her ( i worry too much!)
Sandra Dodd: Pet care?
Megan Valnes: Ok, I'm back
Sukayna: All this fretting is internal, i try to never show my internal worries that would be unkind or heavy for them
Megan Valnes: Oldest son is playing SIms next to me in the kitchen
Sandra Dodd: Checking on a neighbor or friend or relative—call or e-mail grandma, or take the neighbor these cookies (those kinds of tasks, maybe)
Sukayna: Yes- she does help alot! And her older sister does almost all the nasty pet care, they have a nice division of labor set up
Sandra Dodd: For internal freeting, then yes—it's normal and okay. :-)
AlexP: or even going out to the movies together !
Sandra Dodd: Those teenagers will become adults, and maybe parents, and possibly grandparents.
AlexP: Sometimes a distraction.
Sandra Dodd: So don't screw them up while they're trying to grow.
Sukayna: Ahh :-) normal mom stuff then...
Megan Valnes: He's upset because he can't find his gum, so this is an example of when he is upset about something, he takes it out on his younger siblings
Sandra Dodd: I thought you wanted help not making it worse, but you're already not making it worse for them.
Sandra Dodd: So next step maybe remember that having a joyful mom is better than having a worried mom.
AlexP: I would help him find the gum or maybe he can go to a corner store and get some more? Or find him s snack if he wants to chew
Sukayna: Exactly! I thought maybe i could or should be doing more, now maybe i need to worry less and have more joy as you said!
Megan Valnes: Yes, I did help look for his gum
Sandra Dodd: Maybe not pet care like clean-up, but maybe ask her to just play with the (dog/cat/guineapig), because that could increase her peace.
Megan Valnes: I think his dad has it, but he's on a phone call
Sukayna: I keep a case of gum or chocolates so we rarely run out
Megan Valnes: And now he's okay because I helped look
Megan Valnes: and acknowledged his need
Sandra Dodd: Does anyone have a link or idea for terminology about the research that causes people to take pets into children's hospitals and nursing homes? It can be calming to commune with a cat or dog
Amber: peaceful options for how to respond to nail biting/ripping?
Sandra Dodd: Amber, is someone biting your nails?
Sandra Dodd: Ask the question more clearly, please.
Marta Venturini: :)
Parvine: animal assisted therapy
Sandra Dodd: Thank you.
AlexP: Sukayana. I think I get what you wanted ! You worry when she is upset. You think you should help her deal with life. Maybe you are not doing enough or doing it wrong. I sometimes feel that way. I stop and think what they options are. IF I sent my child to sschool would that help? NOT. WIll parenting different help? Not
Robin B.: Our vet has a therapy kitty who comes and sits on your lap to calm you. :-)
Sukayna: We have awesome kitties and that is really soothing lots of times, even for me
AlexP: Another link on pets http://www.tdi-dog.org/OurPrograms.aspx
Megan Valnes: Sometimes, I cannot give my oldest what he needs at the moment he wants it
Megan Valnes: So he will start irritating the younger ones, and even when asked to stop, he won't stop
Sukayna: Yes alex, sorry for phrasing it poorly at first!
Sandra Dodd: Maybe (if it wouldn't irritate your girls, Sukayna) maybe you could make a list and stick on the fridge of idea for you (the mom) to do when you're frustrated. Walk outside. Breathe. Hold a cat. Take a shower. Have tea...
Sandra Dodd: And having the list there (if you don't say "this is for YOU") might help them think of those and other things. Maybe.
Sandra Dodd: I misunderstood too. I thought you were advising her lots on the spot.
Megan Valnes: This is one of the things that stresses me out
Sandra Dodd: -=-and even when asked to stop, he won't stop-=-
Sylvia Woodman: Nail biting is often a response to stress. Is the person biting nails stressed out by anything?
Sandra Dodd: then don't ask.
Sandra Dodd: TELL him to stop.
Megan Valnes: Right, yes, bad wording--I do tell him
Megan Valnes: And his siblings tell him to stop
Sandra Dodd: Don't give him an option, then.
Amber: My 4 year old bites or rips her fingernails and toe nails. I offer her nail files and clippers, and sometimes file them after she falls asleep. Not sure if telling her to stop doing it is peaceful - my husband and I both bite our nails so I'm not sure if she's doing it from stress.
AlexP: I used to like biting my nails.
Sandra Dodd: If you tell him to stop and "he won't stop," you're not near enough. You're not protecting your younger child well enough.
Sukayna: That sounds really good. They already got me into yoga with them so this subtle option might be helpful, they can choose it if they want it , its there
AlexP: Maybe give him gums or mints to chew instead of mails
Sandra Dodd: "Rip" sounds very rough. Please use another word.
Megan Valnes: I will remove the younger one if I can
AlexP: nails
Megan Valnes: But my older son will follow me around
Sandra Dodd: Holly and Keith both were nail biters. Holly has mostly stopped. Keith had some dental work that's keeping him from doing it. I saw his fingernails long for the first time EVER.
Megan Valnes: Or follow the other kids around
Sandra Dodd: It's not stress, it's just habit or preference.
Sandra Dodd: I bit mine in school, from boredom, but when I was out of school it stopped.
Amber: I'm not sure - pick at? I think she picks at an edge, and maybe will peel off the tip.
Megan Valnes: I feel at a loss because I don't tell him to go to his room, I don't want to start yelling at him
Megan Valnes: But until he gets what he wants, he will keep persisiting
Sandra Dodd: Pick hium up and carry him out.
Megan Valnes: and sometimes it's not something I can give him!
Sandra Dodd: Not in a hateful way, in a gentle, nice way.
Sylvia Woodman: Also, how much of a big deal is it? If it's not a reaction to stress what is your concern?
Megan Valnes: He's too big now. He's nearly my height and I'm 5'7
Sandra Dodd: Or pick up the younger child and be super sweet to him.
AlexP: Keep her nails short and get her busy when she starts. Maybe with a snack or Moons Sand!
Megan Valnes: For example, my older son loves to fight in the trampoline with his little brother
Amber: I don't bite my nails off, but chew on them I guess. Pretty sure my husband bites off rough spots on his unless I file them for him.
Megan Valnes: They call it "training"
Megan Valnes: My younger son isn't as into it, because he often gets hurt and so he says "no" when my older one asks him to plau
AlexP: Megan if you cannot give him what he wants then that is that if you can why is he following you around until you do?
Sandra Dodd: -=-I'm not sure - pick at? I think she picks at an edge, and maybe will peel off the tip.-=-
Megan Valnes: and then my older son will just keep bugging the little one
Amber: My father used to tell me to stop biting my nails or else they'll look like frog fingers. So now, when I look at my hands, that's what I think of. That's probably why I want her to not do it.
Sandra Dodd: My point was that if you're critical of it, and you name it "ripping," it sounds terrible, and then you're more justified in trying to criticize her for doing a terrible thing.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe it's not so terrible.
Megan Valnes: He gets in his space and won't stop. Sometimes he'll start screaming and crying.
Robin B.: Does your younger son like "training"? Are you there with them?
Megan Valnes: Sometimes, he likes training.
Sandra Dodd: So your dad shamed you and put a negative image in your head and you're still reacting to that? I have some ideas.
Megan Valnes: Yes, I watch them
Sylvia Woodman: Sounds like your older son needs more friends/adults that he can roughhouse with.
Sandra Dodd: 1) don't pass it on
Megan Valnes: not always, but mostly
Sandra Dodd: 2) don't let your dad's voice keep going in your head.
Megan Valnes: I don't want to get in there with him because he can hurt me!
Sandra Dodd: Do something better, not the same.
AlexP: Megan go fight with him if you can of find him some friends that can go fight. Or distract. Maybe take him to some karate !
Megan Valnes: He has tried karate, etc but doesn't like it because there are rules
Sylvia Woodman: Maybe he needs more big muscle movement during the day. Are there other things the kids could do together that don't involve "play" fighting?
Megan Valnes: He did recently start boxing
Megan Valnes: which he loves
Sylvia Woodman: Do you have a tumbling mat or something similar? A place for them to swim?
Sylvia Woodman: There are a ton of nice ideas here: http://sandradodd.com/physicality/
Megan Valnes: Well, we will all go in the trampoline and play games, but then Julian (oldest) will take something too far :(
Sandra Dodd: I'm cutting a quote in here and will put a page to go with it, for the nail-biting question.
Sandra Dodd: Your children are developing a holographic internal image of you, complete with voice and emotion. The things you do and say are being recorded for posterity; make them sweet and good. What you choose to say and do now will affect what your children say to their children, and what your great grandchildren will hear after you're long gone. Live like you're their last hope.
Amber: Okay. Thank you. I saw your suggestions too, Alex, thank you.
Sandra Dodd: http://sandradodd.com/phrases
AlexP: Tell him to go hit the punching bag! Do you have one at home?
Megan Valnes: Yes, we need one ALex!
Megan Valnes: He has asked for one, I haven't done the research yet, but YES
Megan Valnes: That's a great idea for a soltuion
Megan Valnes: My son is not open to making new friends
Sandra Dodd: -=-I don't want to get in there with him because he can hurt me!-=-
Sandra Dodd: Then don't let your younger child in there with him.
Amber: I've definitely *not* said anything about frog fingers.
Megan Valnes: He has 2 friends and they are both in school, so we can't have week playdates
AlexP: If you are afraid of getting hurt no wonder the young one is. I would tell you son that if he is goling to hurt you or his sibling than he cannto do training with them. Simple as that.
Megan Valnes: He has a friend over every weekend though
Sandra Dodd: -=- I haven't done the research yet, but YES Megan Valnes: That's a great idea for a soltuion-=-
Sandra Dodd: A punching bag cannot be "a solution."
Sylvia Woodman: It sounds like he needs more.
Megan Valnes: And my husband will get in there a few times a week and really wrestle with him
Sandra Dodd: Megan, that's two examples that suggest that you think there AN answer. One.
Sandra Dodd: The right one. :-)
Megan Valnes: I think he needs more too, Sylvia
Sylvia Woodman: What about an older teen? He may not need same age friends. He might like a older kid to hang out with.
Megan Valnes: Yes, Sandra
Sukayna: I was thinking the younge one might end up feeling unsafe
Megan Valnes: Old habits...
Sandra Dodd: If you look at a river and pick ONE MOMENT and one cubit foot of water and say "THAT is the river," you will be wrong.
Megan Valnes: Yes, my yonger son does feel unsafe!
Sandra Dodd: The river is the living passage of water in all kinds of seasons.
Megan Valnes: Yes
Megan Valnes: I am learning this!
Sandra Dodd: We're talking about helping you become the sort of parent who can figure out what to do in a thousand situations that haven't come up yet.
Megan Valnes: I'm a bit of a dogmatic person...a bit black and white
Sukayna: That cannot be good! It is your job to give him safety in your home
Megan Valnes: Yes
Megan Valnes: I want to see the overall principle in this situation
Megan Valnes: My oldest son challenges me in almost every way
Megan Valnes: I want to be better for him
Sylvia Woodman: Can I invite you to stop describing yourself in that way? As a dogmatic person?
Sukayna: Physically being free from fear of being harmed seems top to me
Megan Valnes: Our realtionship has gotten dramatically better since unschooling
AlexP: No rules but there are important priciples and one in our house is safety. So I would not let a child hurt or make the other unsafe. Or myself and themselves
Sandra Dodd: Protect your younger child ALWAYS. From strangers. From neighbors. From wild dogs. Bees. His brother.
Megan Valnes: Yes
Megan Valnes: I do feel bad for my oldest because he's sort of the "outsider"
Megan Valnes: The other kids play constantly and have so much fun
Sylvia Woodman: Right! This get's to the heart of Maslows hierarchy of needs. If you don't feel safe, you can not learn. You need to be providing a safe environment for all of your kids.
Robin B.: And can you spend time with just the eldest sometimes?
Sukayna: then find ways to help him be an insider
Sylvia Woodman: If you want unschooling to flourish in your home.
Megan Valnes: Yes, Robin, alone time with him is very important
Megan Valnes: He values it very much and so do I
Megan Valnes: Safety, yes
Robin B.: Even though I only have one child, I have heard from parents with more children that sometimes the first-born has trouble getting over not being the only, favored child.
Megan Valnes: all the kids are a bit afraid of the oldest
Sylvia Woodman: That is certainly true for Gabriella. She needs more than Harry does.
Megan Valnes: He's getting much better though and they are building freindships
Megan Valnes: friendships
AlexP: some kids are more like that Meganl They do their own things and that is finel My sons best friends were me and his dad and that was enough for him
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes I see parents of young children (sometimes the parents are unschoolers) doing things that would infuriate me if I were the child. Or doing things that CLEARLY are NOT creating a better relationship.
Sandra Dodd: Baby-talking an older kid.
Megan Valnes: He was angry for a long time.
Sandra Dodd: Speaking in third person. Personifying her body parts.
Sandra Dodd: InFURIating.
Sandra Dodd: When parents say "When you yell, it hurts mommy's ears," I want to bop "mommy's ears" and tell her to speak like a human being to another human being.
Megan Valnes: I think part of this is just time--he is still recovering from school.
Megan Valnes: It's hard to juggle 5 different people and all of their needs. I want all my kids to know they're loved and important--and feel safe!
Sandra Dodd: And I'm not a violent person at all, but really, when I see someone thinking that that sweety-gooey once-removed talk is helpful, I can't help but project it three or five years into the future, when the child is NOT listening to her anymore about ANYthing.
Sukayna: I worked hard to rekindle and nourish my relationship with my oldest when we started unschooling
Megan Valnes: Yes, Sukayna, he was in school till age 8 and HATED it
Marta Venturini: Sandra, I have a question too. I've been trying to type it on the side, so it wouldn't take long to write it directly here. If we don't have time for it today, I can bring it back next time.
Sylvia Woodman: Also, Gabriella is very sensitive. If she thought she was "hurting" mommy she would be devastated. Not good for our relationship.
Sandra Dodd: But I feel nearly that same revulsion and fear for their future when people use scripted responses (to bring it back to your story Megan, since you seem determined to claim it. I was hoping to begin a new phase. :-)
Sylvia Woodman: I would never "pretend" that something was hurting me when it wasn't.
Sukayna: It took alot of time, patience, love waiting for her to trust me as mich as before school
Sandra Dodd: -=-he is still recovering from school.-=-
Sylvia Woodman: I would lose both connection and credibility with her.
Sandra Dodd: How long has he been home?
Megan Valnes: 2 years
Sandra Dodd: How long were you in school?
Megan Valnes: age 9 then, he's 11 now
Megan Valnes: 16 years
Sandra Dodd: Mothers sometimes end up setting themselves apart from the normal world. And how will children learn to speak properly or directly or respectfully if the mom is saying weird things. Or referring to her own ears as "mommy's ears" instead of saying "my ears"?
Marta Venturini: The question is about my step-daughter Beatriz. She turned 18 in September and things haven't been going smoothly with her. On the day that my dad needed to be hospitalized back in October, my mom asked for Bruno's help to take him to the hospital. Beatriz had an appointment at the dentist that day and Bruno was going to take her. Bruno called her so they would reschedule the appointment and things went down hill with her ever since. (She was very upset and resented the fact that Bruno had asked her to reschedule and we were so distraught with what was happening with my dad (and then also with Bruno's dad) that we felt hurt and couldn't quite understand what she was probably feeling. Bruno had a couple phone calls after that that didn't go well either.) Anyway, fast forward to today. She hasn't spent any weekend with us since October, she was barely with us when my father died and then when Bruno's dad died, she didn't spend Christmas with us. I'm feeling better now and I can see all that might be happening with her. At the same time, I know this has hurt Bruno very much. I'd like to know if there's something more that I could do or if things are the way they are and I should continue to focus on making our life joyful and peaceful and to welcome her when she decides to spend time with us again. I think I believed that doing things that had led me to being a more peaceful parent and spouse and person in general was the way to achieve perfection. ;) Looking back, I think I felt like if I did everything right, things with Beatriz would be... perfect. And so when things aren't perfect, I feel like we've somehow failed, we've done something wrong (and yes, I include Bruno in my mind, that's why I said we, and I know that isn't good).
Sandra Dodd: So it's likely that your son's deschooling is farther along than your own, perhaps. Instead of crediting or blaming school for his actions, each time you think that it might be helpful to go back to your own deschooling practice/awareness. Maybe. Possibly.
Marta Venturini: (sorry for the long post)
Megan Valnes: Yes
Sandra Dodd: Thanks, Alex. I'll move that link up higher with the other business, later. I hope.
Sylvia Woodman: (((Marta)))
Sylvia Woodman: Just from what you have written it sounds like Beatriz is feeling like she is less important that his new family. Like somehow her Dad has chosen your family "over" her.
AlexP: Marta she is 18. At that age many kids are doing their own things and not reallly into what is going on with their parents life. Maybe talk about that with Bruno. I know I was not interested much in what was going on at home. I hafd my friends and my life. Did not mean I did not love my parents or cared for them but I had a life that was more interesing for me at that moment
Megan Valnes: Ok, so to end my claim here, my son is happily playing SIMS next to me and creating a character for me. This is something that wouldn't have happened 2 years ago. I think I do need to look at my own deschooling more and that will help me become a more peaceful parent.
Robin B.: It can be hard, even for 18 year olds, to put themselves on hold when they really want some attention from their parents.
Marta Venturini: Yes Alex, I'm aware of that. Maybe because it all happened at the same time, I've been reading more into it than I should?
Robin B.: Regardless of the other crises in the house. Sometimes they can't see it as not about them.
Marta Venturini: Yes, Robin.
Sandra Dodd: I think a perfect 18 year old's life is going to involve them not knowing or caring how adults feel. And she might be stressed and confused about death and mourning that were going on while she was still involved with school and friends and her other mom's daily life.
Robin B.: And young people can be very scared of death or illness and focus.
Robin B.: focus on that.
Sandra Dodd: She might be overwhelmed, or she might not know how to contribute and might be embarrassed.
Robin B.: Yes!
Marta Venturini: Yes.
AlexP: Maybe a bit of both. Reach out and leave the door openl Text her and keep in touch showing that you are all thinking of her. Sned her some little gifts but let her be busy with her friends without feeling guilty for you guys.
Marta Venturini: Good idea
Sukayna joined the chat 20 hours ago
Robin B.: Yes ^
Sandra Dodd: Megan, I think it will get better every day, but seeing lots of small choices will help everybody.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe lure her over with a day trip to see or do something fun
Marta Venturini: A few weeks ago, I wasn't ready to do that, because... my dad... but now, I'm feeling better and it definitely sounds like a good idea. I feel like reaching out to her. :)
Robin B.: Gotta go. Thanks, everyone!
Robin B. left the chat 20 hours ago
Marta Venturini: Bye Robin, thanks!
AlexP: A little gift can be a link to a video of something you know she will love or laugh about it! or something tanglble. So she knows she is in your minds! So she knows she is part. Keep inviting her but accept her nos
Sukayna: thanks Robin, bye
Megan Valnes: bye Robin
Megan Valnes: thank you!
Sukayna: thanks Robin, bye
Sandra Dodd: Amusement park. Road trip. :-)
Marta Venturini: :)
Sandra Dodd: I don't think an 18 year old should be expected or required to visit a non-custodial parent as much as a younger child should.
Sukayna: sometimes many failed attempts to build up to accepting an offer.
Amber: "accepting of nos" ... does that get easier with practice?
Parvine: Can she come down to algarve with you? Any school holidays coming up? Its an option for her maybe with a friend?
AlexP: I agree. Keep invitintg her and including her but don't pressure or feel bad if it is a no.
Sandra Dodd: Don't tell Bruno this in a hard way, but I think sometimes the lack of a visit hurts the feelings of the parent more than anything—because they might be in a situation where they feel that's where they're doing their real parenting, and without the visit he's not being a good parent.
Sukayna: Yes, because it means they are comfortable with you
AlexP: She has her own things to do!
Sukayna: ans exercise their own choice
Sandra Dodd: And if it's feeling that way to him, maybe reminding him that he's still right there if she needs him, and what she MIGHT need is more privacy, more time with friends, more option.
Sandra Dodd: If she had no option to visit but "has to," then she can't possibly come over voluntarily.
Sandra Dodd: Everything gets easier with practice, Amber.
Sandra Dodd: Can you give us a clearer question?
Marta Venturini: -=-I don't think an 18 year old should be expected or required to visit a non-custodial parent as much as a younger child should.-=- I agree, Sandra. I think I felt that there was a disconnection (but I was also grieving, so probably not thinking clearly) and that felt like it was more than her doing her own stuff.
Sukayna: i like it that my kids feel alright saying no to me
Sukayna: the yeses are more valuable because they mean it
Sandra Dodd: if they can't say no, the yes is worthless.
AlexP: Amber it does. Because what is the other choice? would it be a better choice?
AlexP: I like that my children can say no! It is a great thing to be able to.
Megan Valnes: I like to hear my kids say no, too.
Megan Valnes: They don't often say no, but when they do, I feel happy that they feel respected enough to say no.
Sukayna: i could never have said what i felt without repercussions, no matter how sweetly i put it, growing up
Sandra Dodd: If it's a young child who has only recently had the option to say no, it might be something he does LOTS at first, from the joy of the new opportunity.
Sandra Dodd: If it's a two or three year old, they all like to say no. :-) It's the first power some kids ever have.
Sandra Dodd: Sukayna's point is true in lots of families and in lots of parent's memories.
Megan Valnes: Yes
Sandra Dodd: One part of deschooling can be recognizing when you're jealous of your child's range of options.
Megan Valnes: I always heard "don't be a smart-ass"
Megan Valnes: "don't talk back!"
AlexP: A couple years ago all that I got from my son was NO NOPE. IT was his big joke. We used to laugh! I got him a Grumpy cat key chain that said NOPE Miss those times1
Sukayna: another gift i am trying to give without a bill ;)
Sandra Dodd: It can be easy for a new unschooler to give some freedom in one moment, and feel very resentful that the child actually grabbed the offer and ran with it!
Sukayna: another gift i am trying to give without a bill ;)
Megan Valnes: I was just recently singing that old song "yakkity-yak, don't talk back!" and thinking how it does not apply to our life!
Megan Valnes: I love that my kids have freedom.
Sukayna: it was harder at first, but now it is easy and normal
Sukayna: not freedom but choice
Megan Valnes: That was one of the easier concepts for me to grasp with unschooling
AlexP: I like to thin:
Amber: Sandra do you think that resentment comes from a misunderstanding?
Sukayna: choices about how to spend time, food, interests, people
AlexP: I like to think: I like that my kids have options and choices.
Sandra Dodd: No, i think the resentment comes from the still-buried emotions of the inner child.
Megan Valnes: Yes, options and choices.
Amber: *nod*
Megan Valnes: Freedom to some degree.
AlexP: Resentment can come from expectations
Sandra Dodd: A parent who was made to finish all the food on her plate, for example, might feel a nearly physical pain seeing a child say "I don't like this food" and not being prssed to EAT IT, and not being shamed.
AlexP: Or lack of clear thinking
Sandra Dodd: So the same human who has just had a wave of "that's not fair," or has heard the old voices of parents and grandparents in her head saying "You're going to sit there and eat what's on your plate," and a dozen other repeated phrases...
Sandra Dodd: that same human wants to say "That's okay! Do you want a peanut butter sandwich?"
Sandra Dodd: So the parent, then, might be having an internal wrestling match of voices and emotions. :-)
Sandra Dodd: And it's not the child's fault.
Sandra Dodd: And it's not the parent's fault.
Sukayna: YES! and i will happily make it right now
Sandra Dodd: But it shouldn't happen every time, or for years, or there's no progress being made.
Sandra Dodd: http://sandradodd.com/phrases
Megan Valnes: Ok, ladies, I don't want to miss a thing, but Costco awaits. I bid you adieu.
Sandra Dodd: That link is up above, but I think it will help with lots of what's up there.
Megan Valnes: And Sandra, I will not use any scripted phrases today!
AlexP: Bye Megan
Sukayna: Bye Megan
Megan Valnes: I never liked them anyway. Bye and thank you all so much!
Marta Venturini: Bye Megan!
Sandra Dodd: I'm hungry!!
Sandra Dodd: I hate to leave the room with thirteen people in it.
AlexP: OH Me too!
Marta Venturini: Thanks, Sandra!
Sandra Dodd: Thank for being here!
Sandra Dodd: It was a good chat today. I had a good time.
Sandra Dodd: Thanks, all, for sharing what you've thought and learned.
