|
You get it all clean and good and find there's another layer, and then
it's not so smooth for a while until you get that all cleared off and
there's another layer...
Think of some of the times when you "got it" a little more, at a
deeper level. What were some of the incidents or some of the
understandings?
Here's a page for ideas, or for those who can't come to the chat:
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
Other more pressing topics will be let through.
Sandra Doddleft this message :
"Before I got into unschooling, every night I felt inadequate, defeated and discouraged. Now I feel more confident, happier and accomplished."
(Jihong Larson wrote that on facebook; it's beautiful.)
JennBeas: wondering. what is the correct shannon quote. "long range epiphany bomb" or "time release epiphany bomb"
Shan: Jenn - I think it was time release!
Sandra Dodd: I saved it:
Sandra Dodd: Shan: A few months ago, you planted a long-range epiphany-bomb on my blog....
Shan: And it has exploded!
Shan: And it has exploded!
Shan: We are gearing up for Unschoolers Rock the Campground. =)
Shan: So I misquoted myself - lol!
Shan: i didn't do my homework....so I'll go look now....
JennyC: Hi all!
Sandra Dodd: I've been thinking about times I could tell I had "notched up" my unschooling understanding.
reneecabatic: Hi! Getting it all the time!
Sandra Dodd: The biggest one I can think of is chores.
JennBeas: I like time release better! 'cause that is exactly how it is working for me.
Sandra Dodd: That's one thing I totally got from other people. I don't think Joyce was the first one, but she might have been. But she certainly did clarify it for lots of people.
JennyC: it's "getting it", which could be an epiphany bomb!
Sandra Dodd: This week there seems to be a kind of theme "around town," on blogs and facebook (if that's the town, I mean; "on the [internet] streets") that those who labelled themselves anything (by which they seem to mean unschoolers, invariably)
Sandra Dodd: are lame
Sandra Dodd: and limited
Shan: i am notching up now - I can tell because, where, a few months ago, I couldn't be articulate about unschooling, now I am able to do so witohut defensiveness, from our own experiences.
Sandra Dodd: and not free and courageous.
JennBeas: Shan can I give you the quote credit for the time release version?
Sandra Dodd: But when they describe what they're doing in their free and unlabelled fashion,
Shan: Jenn - sure.
Sandra Dodd: they're decribing things that came out of discussions where people were holding other practices at bay, and saying "But you don't HAVE to do that; you could let those limitations go"
Sandra Dodd: So what was once radical radical unschooling has gone somewhat mainstream.
Sandra Dodd: And people don't always know they're quoting Joyce, or me, or Schuyler, or whoever it is.
Schuyler: That's pretty cool. I like the idea of more children having happy childhoods
Shan: I'm not sure I'm following.....exactly.
Schuyler: Mainstream kindness would be good
JennyC: yes, that's true Sandra, the distinction between radical unschooling and unschooling isn't so big these days
Sandra Dodd: Things new in the past few years that I remember being "OMG" new are out there as though they were ancient, traditional proverbs.
Sandra Dodd: But the reason that's true, Jenny, is that some of us were admanant that there WAS such a thing as radical unschooling, and that "just anything" wasn't enough.
Sandra Dodd: So it's interesting that people are quoting me and some of those discussions, listing things we worked through for years to clarify, and kind of believing those things came from nowhere, just always were known.
Shan: Ok.....now I see. So you're being dissed for using the label by people who are benefiting from your words, third hand or more.
Sandra Dodd: Correct.
reneecabatic: can you give an example? or a link to the blog?
Jill P: Am I missing something? How are you being dissed?
Sandra Dodd: Not me particularly. Those-who-would-label-themselves.
Jill P: By them not saying the idea or quote is from you?
Sandra Dodd: Those who don't just go with the flow, and do what they want to do.
Schuyler: Which isn''t so cool, but the idea that folks who are saying that unschooling isn't all that special are treating their children with respect and dignity even in it's absence, well, that's cool
JennyC: as to the OMG new, stuff, I've been reading lots of things people have written and they get tossed around in the internet sphere as new and shiny and beautiful. That's cool on one hand, and on the other hand, I feel, well yeah, that ideas been out there for sooooo long now
Sandra Dodd: By them not KNOWING that those ideas like just say yes or some version, and no arbitrary bedtimes, and be their partner... as though those things are just known by everybody.
Ticia: Hi everyone!
Sandra Dodd: Yes. What Schuyler says is true.
Shan: We use the label (although the 'radical' bothers me a bit, still). But in our relationships, it's about peace, and harmony, and fun, and learning....not about being members of a club with rules, but about challenging ourselves to be our best, and to make our best better.
Sandra Dodd: It IS cool that the ideas have gone feral and are reproducing and running around in the underbrush.
Schuyler: I have a harder time with folks who say they are unschooling but who aren't doing anything but nothing much or no curricullum or no school work or some school work but not really.....
JennyC: Hi Ticia
Schuyler: but that's not the topic.
Shan: Sandra - feral ideas...my feral nature loves that!
Sandra Dodd: Had the unschooling discussion list, and the unschooling.info boards, and the unschooling.com message boards, and the AOL unschooling boards *not* had a radical fringe really looking at things and sorting traditional "whatever" from "yes, but what if THIS?", then those idea would not have arisen.
reneecabatic: these new homeschoolers or unschoolers--are they just excited about these "new" ideas they are "discovering"?
Sandra Dodd: The ideas would long ago have been dilluted to look way more like traditional parenting than like radical unschooling.
Sandra Dodd: Without labels, how can a person know which meeting to attend?
Sandra Dodd: But maybe it is the topic, Schuyler.
Schuyler: I like badges
JennyC: I sent you badges in the mail...
Schuyler: I like ephemereal topics
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes one can't see unschooling in their own lives. And they're not sure if it's working, and they're not sure they're doing it, and then they surface, and look around, and see how far they've travelled.
JennyC: but they weren't unschooling badges
Schuyler: You did and I begged a badge of Dagny Kream that says Belly
Sandra Dodd: If schuyler looks at a family and thinks "They're not really unschooling," then they're a landmark past which Schuyler has passed.
Schuyler: I am badge rich
Shan: Sandra - there was a lovely how far we've traveled moment for us on Annalise's birthday....
JennyC: yes, kids seem to be the marker posts
Sandra Dodd: Renee, maybe it's just excitement, but I think it's a kind of ho-hum, "yawn," those people who label themselves are *so* tiresome.
Sandra Dodd: And that's irritating.
Schuyler: I can see how that could be, but, and yet
Sandra Dodd: While we were spending years fending off criticism and risking that this might NOT work (not much risk, but still...) they were still punishing and requiring chores and trying to teach math and reading, and then when they settle down and look around, the other end has moved on by.
Sandra Dodd: Now I'm in esoterica. I need to be in person, not with words.
reneecabatic: maybe they don't want to label themselves because they don't want to be criticized for not being as far along into "getting it"...maybe....
Sandra Dodd: I spoke in Long Beach once in a room that was wider than long.
Shan: It fell on Thursday, our co-op day. It was hot and humid all week, so we agreed to meet at a local public pool. It was very crowded.
Ticia: Sandra, I remember your french fry adventure you had posted about Marty from years ago. On our road trip I was telling my daughter about it. Then I was looking back over Fridays chat this morning and saw you had mentioned it again.
Sandra Dodd: (Shan and I need a split screen here to tell our separate stories, but that will work; you can skim down the blue stories and down the green. )
Schuyler: When I first joined Always Learning, lo those many years ago, you wrote something about worrying about the people who couldn't unschool who you were encouraging to, or something
I've been thinking about that, in relation to the idea that some folks shouldn't use unschooling if they can't unschool....
Sandra Dodd: Cool, Ticia! I learned something that day about nicely stuffing someone with potatoes, out of love. :-)
Shan: Lots of groups of daycare and camp kids. We were a mixed group with kids from 6 (lise) to 15 or so.
Shan: I can wait, till you're done.....
JennyC: oh double story it and then we'll see how they tie in!
Shan: Love that...ok!
JennyC: type faster, I wanna read it all!
Sandra Dodd: So I'm in Long beach, with a long stage. And I stood in the middle and said this is where homeschooling starts, and school is over there (to my right). And I walked 3/4 across and said and this is unschooling. And I walked to the wall and said "And I'm way over here, making noise and being interviewed and speaking and if I don't get in trouble, those over there (the 3/4 point) are safe."
Sandra Dodd: And what I was saying was kind of like... if you're on the freeway going 70 and cars are passing you, you're unlikely to get a ticket even if the speed limit was 65.
Shan: we stayed till the pool closed, and saw groups come and go. At one point, there was a group of 10 or so teenage girls, some in lifejackets although the pool was only 3.5 feet deep, near us.
Sandra Dodd: I didn't say that then, I'm saying it now.
Sandra Dodd: So because some people pushed the envelope, those 25% from that edge are safer than they used to be.
Sandra Dodd: Because some moms pushed for VBACs at home, VBACs at hospitals became commonplace.
JennyC: trail blazers
Shan: All our teens were girls, and eventually drifted over to meet the other group. I had both my children hanging on me (about 150 pounds these days), so was distracted.
JennyC: that's what the fore runners of any kind of idea machine are
Sandra Dodd: Holly was never registered to homeschool. I knew the law and it was a calculated decision.
Sandra Dodd: I mentioned it occasionally, but didn't put a big sign up on our house.
Ticia: Sandra were you speaking at the Bay Shore conference?
Sandra Dodd: Several times, in early years.
Shan: When I looked again, all the girls were in a rough circle, and the camp girls were fixated on the unschoolers.
Sandra Dodd: Jenny, I suppose what it is that's bugging me (and not bugging Schuyler, which means she's more mature ) is the combination of "everybody knows these things" and "Some people label themselves radical unschoolers, but we never had the need for that nonsense."
Ticia: Fringe.
JennyC: well right, because they have 4 yr olds, no offense to any of you that have 4 yr olds
Ticia: W/any concept etc there has to be the extremes or the fringe maybe?
Schuyler: I don't know, I get irritated when people pass on the recipes I gave them to others implying that they are their own. I'm not all that mature....
Ticia: Jenny I'm totally offended :P
dina: me too jenny. :P
JennyC: well, I just can't believe you guys actually listened to me and my tell them both advice!
Sandra Dodd: Oh, that would really piss me off, schuyler, because that's in writing.
Sandra Dodd: Jenny, degarble please.
Sandra Dodd: translate yourself
reneecabatic: Not everybody knows these things and if folks are implying that they must never leave their house.....:P
Sandra Dodd: Well that's for sure, renee.
Sandra Dodd: So maybe it's leaving the house, sometimes, that helps people see their progress.
JennyC: Schuyler that was THE beginning and end of Chamille's long relationship with her friend Emily that she had sooo many issues with
Shan: It turns out that the other group was from an 8-week sleepaway camp. 8 weeks=their whole summer.
Sandra Dodd: Being around parents who aren't even trying to be nice.
Shan: Thyy will see their parents on one visiting day. Just one.
dina: sandra, something to compare your lives with your kids too?
dina: to, geez, english dina
Sandra Dodd: To compare your awareness to
reneecabatic: XuMei was curious about school lunches so I took the kids to a local school free lunch program. She was thrilled! and very sad about how the kids all treated each other on the playground after lunch
Schuyler: I loved sleepaway camp!
Schuyler: I never got homesick, and I always went home too soon
Schuyler: I wanted to stay so much, so much longer
Shan: That didn't bother any of them - they seemed stunned that our teens wanted to be with their parents all year round.
Sandra Dodd: Holly used to go to summer lunch in a park near us. I saw the truck there a week ago and thought of her.
Schuyler: It could though, couldn't it, but the staff would probably freak out
Shan: But, at the same time, they were listening to the unschoolers, especially Amy Briggs, who made an absolutely brilliant statement....
Reneejoined the chat
JennyC: when I was pregnant with Chamille it was a BIG deal to simply decide that I was going to breastfeed and not use formula
Sandra Dodd: If I save and edit this, I could sort the stories into those two separate threads and take out the side chat
Schuyler: But I am only side chat
reneecabatic: i'd end up on the editing room floor!
Shan: What Amy said was, "if I have a religion, it's the religion of the open mind. I don't have a problem with any religion. I believe all things are possible."
Jill P: And I'm just trying to keep my head on. %-)
Robyn L. Coburn: I keep coming and going and missing stuff - so I will surely read the edit if you do it Sandra.
Sandra Dodd: Not the good side chat, just the "hey stop" (me and the VBAC detour)
Chrissie: What is the topic for today's chat? I haven't had a chance to check my email
reneecabatic: Getting It
Schuyler: Oh, I believe so few things are possible, given the range of possible things, I wouldn't have impressed the 8 week summer camp kids
Sandra Dodd: Getting it, and the different times people "got it" better.
reneecabatic: it's like an onion. it happens in layers
Shan: By the time the group split up, one of the camp girls said, very emphatically, "I want to unschool!"
Schuyler: more like a parfait
reneecabatic: jello parfait
Schuyler: poor thing
Sandra Dodd: So was that, for you, Shan, a "getting it" moment?
Robyn L. Coburn: Heather (Hathor) did a cartoon yesterday http://www.mama-is.com/no-one-way/. She's speaking about bf and baby AP, but the ideas apply I think.
Sandra Dodd: That you were on the side of clear explanation?
JennyC: with me, it started with having a child young, sooo taboo, then breast feeding and cloth diapers, then not sending her to daycare and working. That all seems so "normal", not even remotely radical
Schuyler: sometimes it sucks to see someone else envy your life when you know they aren't quite in a position to change it
Shan: yes. Not so much that, as that I didn't see Amy as less worthy of having said it as i would an adult. I was awed at her clarity, because she was so very clear, and not because of her age.
Schuyler: their own life, not your life
Sandra Dodd: Oh, Robyn! It's not the comic itself that's telling, it's the qualifying statements afterwards. "And as always, remember I%u2019m never talking about you personally. Ever. "
Ticia: I'm lately re-getting it better because I "got you all" in my face to facilitate being nice, kind, and helpful.
Sandra Dodd: She's afraid to lose fans to DO go around reciting "There's no one way..."
dina: jenny that all seems "normal" to me too. until i leave the house or talk with another parent
Sandra Dodd: In your face, Ticia, or starting to be in your head?
Bea Mantovani: normal to you Jenny, or to people around you? It's definitely not normal where I come from, although all my friends (made after I had kids) parent the same way I do
Ticia: I thought I had it when C was little, then I thought I got it when Raiden was little, but when Satori was born I kind of un got it.
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes people have an "aha" level-up when the voices in their heads stop being grandmother and mom and start being other unschooling parents.
reneecabatic: just yesterday I had a "getting it" moment---we were having a water balloon fight and the other Mom asked us to pick up all the balloon bits so they wouldn't kill the birds and I realized how stressful that info would be to my kids--the fate of a poor bird on their heads for having fun and cooling off
Ticia: Yes the aha level is up in my head again.
reneecabatic: so I told them I would pick up th eballoon bits and not to worry about it
Ticia: Oh really in my head Sandra.
dina: renee, i have a local unschooling friend that is like that
Shan: Schuyler...yes, there was that, too. I was standing in the water next to another mom (Sharon Emerson, sandra - you met her at GBHL I think), and we were commenting on the chances of this girl , whose parents sent her off for the whole summer, actually getting the chancve to unschool....
Sandra Dodd: Schuyler, that's true, when someone wants what I have and I can't feel good about showing it to them if they can't have it. A house bigger than I need. An extra car. Enough monty to go to the movies.
Sandra Dodd: But if we withhold showing it, then what?
Ticia: For example on our long road trip I was able to really have all of your voices in the forefront of my mind and just not be triggered so fast.
JulieDanieljoined the chat
Schuyler: I don't want to not show it, but sometimes it hurts to watch a child envy what our family has
Sandra Dodd: But Shan, she might unschool her kids, that teen-from-camp girl
Shan: I've realized lately that i seldom impose any strict timeframe on things anymore. we meander mush more often. we're more spontaneous. and sometimes whole days go by where i don't do homework.
Shan: Housework.
Chrissie: Same for me, Schuyler and it's even worse when the other children stay with us and see how we live.
Sandra Dodd: Julie, hi
JulieDaniel: Hiya!
Schuyler: Fortunately it is a largely rare event, but when it does happen I just try to be nicer to the child, I suppose
Shan: Sandra - thank you! I hadn't thought of that, and now I'm smiling. Her world got a tiny bit bigger!
Sandra Dodd: Shan forgot the word for housework and forgot what homework was! Good progress, Shan!
Schuyler: Hi Julie! I've got the fabric for the tent, so maybe camping will come sooner rather than later
AlexPolikowskyjoined the chat
JulieDaniel: That would be fun
Schuyler: Unless I sew it horribly badly and it leaks
Shan: That is huge for me. i used to get up every day thinking my purpose was to clean. I did it at the kids expense. I tormented them into helping.
Sandra Dodd: Schuyler, if a tent might leak (Keith and I have made tents) and they always will eventually leak, make the inside stuff waterproof.
reneecabatic: but I too have discouraged silly string purchases or helium balloon release (actually--that was a mutual decision Xander and I both made after some research...but I wonder if it stressed him)
Sandra Dodd: Plastic bins with lids. Maybe a plastic tarp above the bed.
Schuyler: I'm making a bell tent and hoping that the canvas will hold the water out
Sandra Dodd: Renee, you live near the ocean. I don't.
Plastic bags are not going to harm seals in New Mexico, for sure.
dina: there used to be stuff you could spray on canvas to waterproof tents
JennyC: you could put weather proofer on the canvas
Schuyler: I'll water proof it
reneecabatic: true--and Xander LOVES the animals and didn't want anything he did to hurt them
Ticia: I feel that stress Renee over recycling at some people's homes. Which bin which bin???!
Sandra Dodd: Those plastic rings that used to be on cans of Dr Pepper will NOT get around the neck of a water bird between our house and the landfill.
Shan: we were in a canvas tipi a few weeks back....it had a secondary liner going around the bottom third, to provide a barrier for leaky walls....I think I have pictures that show it....
Sandra Dodd: But people still break them here, almost superstitiously, to save animals' lives.
Sandra Dodd: The waterproofing isn't guaranteed to do the seams. You can rub bee's wax along the seam, but if it's really hot it might not stay where you put it.
Ticia: I still break those, but it is because I *did* work with Sea Lions in Laguna beach and see firsthand what those things did.
Schuyler: I don't imagine will get that hot...
Ticia: In Washington I still cut them, but I get your point completely.
Sandra Dodd: Ticia, I'm sure Laguna Beach has a real issue, but prairie dogs can fit right through those rings.
Sandra Dodd: We put them in recycling anyway. I hope they melt them down before shipping them to the coast of somewhere. :-)
Ticia: yep.
JennyC: I cut them too
Sandra Dodd: SO...
AlexPolikowsky: I break the rings or cut them , just a habit.
Ticia: I think they sell some kind of noseum or seam glue at REI.
Schuyler: Oh, while I have you here, will dying canvas damage it's waterproof nature, David is asking
Sandra Dodd: Any stories of moments you thought "Oh, HEY! I thought I had it but now I really get it!"?
JennyC: Margaux just came in all frustrated with neighbor kids and I gave her a pocket knife and water jug and now she's cutting holes in it to make a bird feeder
AlexPolikowsky: Sandra I have so many but can't remember a specific one.
JennyC: she took it outside to find some sticks to put in it and the boys are all freaking out that she's allowed to use a pocket knife
Sandra Dodd: Ah, thanks for the link, Robyn.
Shan: Scuyler...not the bottom third, but about person-height.....here's the link. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php...
Sandra Dodd: Jenny, you're making the neighbors unhappy. Disturbing the peace. With a knife.
AlexPolikowsky: I have to say that for me it was more like I kept reading the discussions and links and going: "yes that makes sense" and nodding to myself.
JennyC: if the fabric has been treated, then yes it will
reneecabatic: I don't want my kids to feel responsible for the death of the planet---an idea I didn't come up with on my own, thank you very much Sandra! and an aha moment from yesterday
Schuyler: the fabric is untreated and thanks for the pictures Shan
Shan: I had one of those moments this weekend. I mentioned it has been very hot here.
AlexPolikowsky: I don't live by the sea but lots of lakes and water around here!
JennyC: yes, I guess I am disturbing the peace with a knife, but they've been disturbing my peace a lot lately and frankly margaux needed an outlet for her frustration, so they can look in awe and feel jealous and I don't care right now!
Sandra Dodd: (Thanks/you're welcome, renee)
Robyn L. Coburn: I think mine moments of that realization are lost in the mists of time. I now have no doubts ever. Where I have changed is letting go of my desire to bring others in.
Sandra Dodd: "Lots of lakes and water..." (trying to picture that. Oh right! Minnesota is like that. eastern Oklahoma...)
Shan: no rain, either, except a bit Saturday, while we were asleep. SO the kids have been inside more than they like, and are hot, sticky, tired and cranky more than normal.
dinajoined the chat
AlexPolikowsky: I have a story about making a kid feel bad about something he liked
Schuyler: There are moments when I find my patience is more elastic than I thought
Ticia: My "getting it" seems to evolve.
Bea Mantovani: being isolated from family and friends with kids, most of my role models (at least at the beginning) have been online, so for me it's not so much getting it, as applying it along the way... but maybe I'll feel differently some day, I'll let you know
Shan: Scuyler - yes! That's where i am going, an elastic patience realization.
Schuyler: There are moments when I see so clearly the learning that Simon and Linnaea do all the time in so many ways and am so impressed by it
Chrissie: Mine too, Ticia and it seems like the older my children grow the more I "get"
Sandra Dodd: Robyn, have you gone past wanting to talk about unschooling? Tired of it? Or despair? What's the reason you've "let to of desire to bring others in"?
JennyC: having teenagers around a lot helps me get things more and more clearly, because the cause and effect is VERY obvious
Ticia: Ooh I like that "elastic patience realization" I have to write that down.
Robyn L. Coburn: I am almost 50 and I STILL worry about how others see me - and it's pointless. I am working on NOT being defensive. Just being and being an example of unschooling.
AlexPolikowsky: When MD was little I told him about how the sotre bought cookies were made with stuff that were not good and healthy . He avoided them a few times but really wanted them until one day he told me he watned them and that they really did not make them feel sick at all.
Sandra Dodd: Bea, I bet you'll let some moms know who haven't even had babies yet. :-)
Sandra Dodd: It will keep rolling downhill.
Ticia: Bea I relate to that too.
Shan: So there have been some ugly moments between them. jeremiah can be bossy without realizing it; hedoesn't wuite understand when i try to discuss it - almost, but not quite. And Annalise will sometimes hurt him without meaning to (or meaning to, if she is overly frustrated).
Sandra Dodd: I'm on a small mailing list of REALLY old-fart homeschoolers. Their kids are older than mine, pretty much all. And last night there were discussions about what people are doing now.
AlexPolikowsky: I saw then that I had made him feel bad about liking store bought cookies and never did that kind of thing again.
reneecabatic: oh! I totally didn't "get " how to help XuMei with her nail biting until last chat when I was totally blown away by the very good ideas
JennyC: brb
Ticia: Alex, see I did that too and I'm really trying to find a way that I can share my values and not PUT them onto my kids as "baggage" kwim.
AlexPolikowsky: Ticia a store bought cookie eaten by a happy child is much better than a homemade one that was only chosen because the child feels bad about store bought ones.
Sandra Dodd: Pam Sorooshian and I are the only ones still helping people homeschool actively. (And the Hegeners still do Home Education Magazine, I think, though it almost went under a year or so ago)
Ticia: Let me tell you Sandra, I'm so grateful that you and Pam have kept helping.
Shan: She has longer fingernails than him. He came to me with scratches on his back. not so long ago, i would have assumed she meant to hurt him, and i would have punished her.
But, this time, I remembered her long nails hurting me recently, and unintentionally, and was able to soothe Miah without blaming her (they were playing tag, and her grab missed, raking his back).
Sandra Dodd: Thanks, Ticia.
Ticia: Renee how is it going for XuMei?
Sandra Dodd: Ticia, the kids will understand what you think gradually, from living in the same house.
Robyn L. Coburn: OK to answer you Sandra - I would worry about the kids I see, the Moms being stern about lessons, or "put on your sweater" - worrying about other families was making me sad. For example - there's a discussion on my local list about "Home High Schooling" - the OP's son is 15 and not liking the school at home. And I realized the the discussion was full of college prep, life prep, keeping up comments. No one talking about Unschooling as an option.
Jill P: I'm so happy you and Pam keep going, I don't know how you both sidestep the criticism. After a while I just get tired of it.
Robyn L. Coburn: But this person knows Unschooling exists.
Shan: And after he was calm, I talked with Lise about her nails, showed her what they'd done to Miah's back, and she was really upset to have done it.
dina: me too sandra. i wasn't always glad though. but i feel like i've grown in my understanding since then
Ticia: Intrinsically I think I know that Sandra, but that cultural part is such a loud voice I have to just hush it a bit :)
Jill P: So will you not say anything about unschooling, Robyn?
Chrissie: I have had similar experiences, Robyn. It has gotten to the point where I just had to pull away from my local homeschooling group.
Sandra Dodd: You weren't always glad what, Dina? Reference to what/glad? (for when I edit, because this one is good and I WILL edit and publish)
reneecabatic: much better--I realized that biting and being stressed aren't bad and to be avoided necessarily. And I told her that if she wanted and needed to bite her nails that was OK with me. She seemed so relieved. She really liked knowing that biting was her healthy way of coping with stress.
Robyn L. Coburn: Any how, I've stopped reading because it makes me sad. And I know from the past that if I did put in my 2c about unschooling I would get the old "there's no one way - we all do what's best for our families - unschooling is about freedom instead of education" BS - plus Jayn is too young for me to have credibility in this kind of argument.
Shan: I was able to offer comfort to the child who needed it, and be open to the best in the one who had caused the harm. And by showing her what could happen, I probably did more to avoid the same in the future than I ever could have,by punishing here.
Jill P: ah.
dina: i wasn't always glad that you were helping unschoolers. i was pissed about a lot of things you were saying and stopped reading for a while
Schuyler: I have let more and more conversations go by without feeling I need to bring up unschooling as an option. Maybe that comes from the comment I made earlier about wondering if unschooling is being used badly by folks, maybe it comes from being dismissed, I guess I don't want to save folks so much
Sandra Dodd: Robyn, I left the state list and started a new New Mexico list, and ended up leaving that because of hostility toward unchooling.
Robyn L. Coburn: When Jayn is a super successful doll designer, writer, business owner, entrepeneur (her plans) all without a day of formal schooling (as we expect at this time) - well THEN I'll have some credibility.
Shan: Renee, Jeremiah bites his, too, which is why he didn't know what hers could do.
Sandra Dodd: I didn't quit writing, I just (biblically speaking) stopped casting my pearls before swine.
dina: all the while thinking about WHY i was so pissed. had some help from some friends too :)
Sandra Dodd: If they want to find what I've written I left a trail of pearls on google.
Robyn L. Coburn: Right now all I can say is - yeah she learned to read, do math and all about "the facts of life" just naturally from living her life.
JennyC: you could discuss options in light of choices for the KID without it needing to be unschooling
Shan: Dina- so glad you got past that. i like seeing you here.
Ticia: That sounds like it must have been a relief in itself (hearing that from you Renee).
Schuyler: ah, but maybe they'll find some other way to dismiss your credibility. I think you are credible
Sandra Dodd: Did I know that, Dina? Did you write us a "you guys suck" letter?
AlexPolikowsky: Schuyler I have totally stoped talking about unschooling to homeschooling people, unless interested.
Schuyler: even without Jayn's future sucess
Schuyler: Bye Julie
Shan: Bye Julie!
Robyn L. Coburn: Pearls before swine - that's it. I still have pearls, but the non-swine have to look for them.
JennyC: well, of course Robyn, people will only be open and receptive if they want to be, other wise it is falling on deaf ears!
JennyC: that's the case with ANY kind of advice
Shan: I think, if we were not unschooling, and getting it more and more, we would be having a lot of problems with Jeremiah, now.
AlexPolikowsky: I don't thing Dina did Sandra. She just complained a bit to me.
Robyn L. Coburn: What I have stopped doing is worrying about their deaf ears, or believing that it's just that I'm not shouting loudly or cleverly enough.
dina: sandra, no i never mentioned it. i should publicly apologize to you for things i said that weren't nice
Robyn L. Coburn: Nothing the other people are doing with/to their kids affects my ability to unschool with Jayn.
Shan: He's gotten BIG. Jim is built like a linebacker. Our formerly slenderish boy now has a build that is a smaller replica of Jim's.
Sandra Dodd: Did you say things in public where I couldn't see them?
dina: yeah i did talk with alex about it and bitched a bit. and now i understand more
Sandra Dodd: Like on the Always Unschooled list?
AlexPolikowsky: You did not say anything that was not nice to me Dina. You just complained a bit.
Schuyler: prostelytizing to the heathens often just gets you lynched
JennyC: some people are really really good at phrasing things in such a way that others get it, even if it's the same thing that I was "trying" to say, different people hear different styles
Sandra Dodd: True, what Schuyler says.
Shan: He's stronger than he knows he is, and feeling a lot of big feelings that sometimes boil up explosively. So I have, in the past several days, gotten physically between him and Annalise a few times, and once pulled him quickly and firmly up against me when he grabbed at Lise.
AlexPolikowsky: No it was private talks
Ticia: That is a great point Jenny.
Schuyler: you have to have big magic to show off why they should come with you
Robyn L. Coburn: Plus, the discussion (eg like the one I mentioned about high school) derails into anti-unschooling discussion and the poor OP, who is often hurting, ends up ignored. Sometimes I just post links.
AlexPolikowsky: That is a conference that it is not me at all and I would never go.
Schuyler: and often folks dismiss the big magic that is truly engaged and interested children as genetics or special circumstances
Robyn L. Coburn: That's the calm peaceful mindset I want to aim for, Sandra
reneecabatic: Schuyler--yes I get told that--it's just my kids that can be like this
AlexPolikowsky: Robyn words were a big influence on me when I started reading about unschooling on ALwaysUnschooled Thanks Robyn!
Jill P: Our list is like that too, criticizing unschooling when everyone started so gung ho, and then I worry about people having a really stilted view of what unschooling is.
Barbara in Missourijoined the chat
Robyn L. Coburn: I appreciate that Alex - but you were coming to AU to learn. I wasn't barging in to your complacent home Schooling group.
Sandra Dodd: Schuyler, that's true. People say that to me and Pam and others all the time. "Well it works for YOUR kids, but... that's because they're special/smart/have you as parents."
Schuyler: I've had unschoolers say that they couldn't have children as special as Sandra's kids to me
Robyn L. Coburn: It's the desire to barge in that has slid away for me - with a bit of pushing on my part sometimes.
Schuyler: so they are whining about your skills and genetics not to just you
Robyn L. Coburn: OH Yeah - "My kids are different"
Shan: I think, if i was still trying to control Jeremiah, i would have gotten seriously hurt, grabbing him like i did. But, because he trusts me, and knows i don't blame him for his big feelinngs, he just kind of gives himself over to me (although it can take a few minutes of blocking him). I need to remember to help him breathe - but i still have trouble remembering, when the hormones strike.
Jill P: Was that group, a regular homeschooling group, or unschooling group, Robyn?
Sandra Dodd: Good, though, Shan!!
Robyn L. Coburn: All inclusive secular park day/support group - all styles welcome (supposedly)
JennBeas: I was one of those "my kids are different' but as the layers of "getting it" have occured I feel differently.
AlexPolikowsky: jenny when I first joined an unschooling group I thought most unschoolers where kind of hippies and into all natural and alternative and that was a little scary cause I am not granola or spiritual at all.
Sandra Dodd: Jenn, that's an important "getting it" quote.
Sandra Dodd: JennBeas: I was one of those "my kids are different' but as the layers of "getting it" have occured I feel differently
dina: anyway, thanks sandra for your list. the recent gun play thread has really resonated around here
Chrissie: I'm more interested in meeting other unschooling families, especially teenagers.
Chrissie: I want to attend a conferance where people "get it" :-)
Schuyler: My kids are different, but I don't think they are special, well I think they are special by I don't think their specialness makes them special when it comes to unschooling
Shan: My fictional hero is Spock. All about the logic.
Schuyler: I think it's hard to find a conference where people, all people, get it
JennyC: right Alex, heck my parents WERE hippies and still have a hippie sort of house, I mean they moved to NM from OR to build an adobe
JennBeas: Alex, I'll admit I felt that way about unschoolers until I went to LiG. It was the seeing the whole group not just those who jumped out at me that made it clear.
AlexPolikowsky: Yes because Dina's husband is a NY cop and carriesa a gun and is not violent!
Robyn L. Coburn: Life is Good, NE Unschooling Conf - the Live and Learn spinoffs - have a high percentage of get it.
Bea Mantovani: oh, there is something you wrote on a chat, Sandra, that was an "aha" for me. You wrote something to the effect of: unschooling is seeing childhood as something you need to ride through, and not as a project you need to finish.
Chrissie: How about where more people "get it" than don't
dina: and he used to pretend play with guns even though his mom did NOT like it at all
Shan: I feel that what is most scred in each of us is ehat makes us unique. I see my job as getting my childre to adulthood with that scared part of them - whatthey havevto offer that no one else does - as nitact as i can keep it.
Schuyler: The first conference I went to there were a bunch of Waldorf folks talking about how nuts all these unschoolers were by the swings.
Schuyler: Alex and David had the pleasure of their company, I believe
AlexPolikowsky: Yes JennBeas the Live and Learn Conference made me see there were all kind of people.
Shan: I don't see them is Indigo Children, and i don't expect other people to find them as incredibly amazing as I do.
dina: lol schuyler!
JennyC: oh ugh, why did you bring that up! ;)
JennyC: Indigo Children. If you look at your child with that kind of label, what you will "get" is a label to understand your child through
dina: sounds like the attachment parenting group i used to attend. i still have friends from there and it makes me kinda sad
reneecabatic: the idea of indigo children freaks me out
Shan: as intact as I can keep it. i so would like to type what i mean.
laurajoined the chat Robyn L. Coburn: Jayn has her moments of horrible. But they are all directed at either me or her dad. Her public behavior and behavior towards other people is wonderful.
Schuyler: It's a pretty colour, maybe it's like Mel Gibson when children go indigo...
AlexPolikowsky: Hanging out with Schuyler and David at Live and Learn was amazing and enlightening
Robyn L. Coburn: So I see her best and worst extremities.
JennyC: oh nice Schuyler! Yes, indigo is a color damn it!
Chrissie: More like Tom Cruise, Schuyler, lol
dina: robin (totally off topic but I've been wondering) how do you pronounce Jayn's name?
JennyC: Robyn, Margaux is so much like that too!
Robyn L. Coburn: Jayn = Jane
Schuyler: I've had people talk about how calm Linnaea is, their vision of her has helped me see how much she has changed, how much she isn't a child framed by her frustrations and her anger
Shan: Well - i have heard Indigo Children mentioned in my co-op. I know my kids are incredible....but they aren't incredible for any paranormal reasons. They're incredible because all people are, if that isn't screwed up.
Sandra Dodd: Schuyler, they were attending the conference too, but badmouthing unschoolers? (maybe it wasn't an unschooling conference...?)
Schuyler: It was Live and Learn, apparently they were the most local attenders
JennyC: she had a nice long play day with a friend on Sat. Her last visit with that friend, Margaux was sooo bossy, I thought for sure that kid would never want to see her again and I wouldn't have blamed her for it!
AlexPolikowsky: Some times I have moments where I sitll see MD like that Schuyler. Working on it .
Schuyler: The curious hoping for something interesting to add to their child rearing practices
Robyn L. Coburn: Osmosis, Schuyler?
Shan: Robyn - what i like to say is that my kids are kids. They fight with each other, sometimes. They scream hurtful things if they get mad. i still do more than I want to, too. but it's not at all the way it was.
Schuyler: maybe, osmosis would be cool
AlexPolikowsky: There were some people in the playground that I talked to at lLive and Learn that were NOT unschoolers
Shan: Now, i catch myself a lot faster. And, more and more, i make a better choice, walk away, and then remember to breathe.
Stephjoined the chat
Sandra Dodd: Way up in the chat Schuyler mentioned me having talked about my concern that encouraging people to unschool could net in some people who would fail at unschooling, and they would not be able to recover, or they would badmouth unschooling as "not working."
Schuyler: but they were all huddled together (I wasn't there, I'm telling a story, a fib) at the playground talking about how they couldn't let their children eat what they wanted or play video games
Shan: I used to give up, and punish, or rant. Now, I keep trying until everyone is calm. it's been a long time since a child sobbed without an adult working very hard to help them calm down, here.
Sandra Dodd: And I've talked to Pam Sorooshian about that too--the idea that maybe it IS something special about our families.
dina: alex, i met a couple of families like that at GBHL last year.
dina: and i have a feeling sandra might have met them this year
Schuyler: That's really cool, Shan
Schuyler: It must feel pretty amazing to you
Schuyler: to know that
Sandra Dodd: My example was the diet coke or TAB commercials that had a 99 lb model diving into a swimming pool, and then they show a coke bottle, shaped like a woman, and name the soda. The implication is that she used to be bigger but she drank diet coke and got skinny.
Robyn L. Coburn: Sometimes it's hard to stay calm & breathe - but I find just being silent is much better for Jayn than pointing out how rude she just was. Usually she will cry and vent for a moment or two, then she will apologise. She is really worried about being mean to me and James - but still learning how to deal with her own rages.
Sandra Dodd: Or that she is skinny and will stay that way because of [DING IMAGE] Diet Coke.
AlexPolikowsky: I was on one of those conversations in the playground. Couple from NC, Mom with daughter,..... I am sure there were other conversations there!
Sandra Dodd: So sometimes I wonder if maybe Pam and I were the (not physically, but metaphorically) naturally bright with naturally bright kids people saying "Do what we do and "Ping!" And if so, it's Very Bad.
Shan: I want to be even better. i want to not have to fight my own demons when I'm needed to help them cope with theirs. i want to be fully present with them, every instant of the upset.
laura: I say lots of things to my kids before I think... I try not too but i havnt mastered it yet
laura: although i think i have gotten better
Schuyler: I've wondered that recently, am I advocating for lots of folks something that I do easily but they may struggle to do?
Schuyler: Or not easily, but with greater ease
Jill P: I wonder if their are personalities that can and can't unschool?
dina: i used to think anyone could (successfully) unschool. i don't anymore
laura: i have wondered lately if those of you that seem to do this more easily just have more easy going dispositions
Sandra Dodd: I know there are, Jill.
Chrissie: A lot of people really have trouble letting go of the control they want over their children
Schuyler: Linnaea gets upset when she hurts someone and often that spirals into being angrier
Sandra Dodd: Because there are some who would kick and scream and not want to even think of trying.
JennBeas: i think it is significantly more work for some personalities to unschool than others
Shan: Robyn - that's it. Jeremiah is so much more aware now. he calls it raging and describes how it feels inside him. I think that's good. he also is the type who can't talk about it in the moment. he has to calm down first, then he is very sorry. I generally let him know that he is always forgiven.
AlexPolikowsky: I think a lot of people think unschooling is easier and less work. I am always appalled when I go to the unschooling discussion at Mothering dot com'
Jill P: The people that I've seen, that get unschooling, there's something there.....thoughtfulness , playfulness, calmness, easy going. They are not going of on some ethereal tangent and they are not being tightly controlling.
Bea Mantovani: I struggle, and people have told me I make it look easy.... (not unschoolers ;-)
Shan: Jill - maybe a willingness to take risks, and a tendency toward self-awareness?
Schuyler: The people I see who have the most difficulty with unschooling aren't playful
Jill P: True , Shan but to me it's not a risk. I'm sure it looks like that to main stream, but I hardly think what I'm doing is risky.
Schuyler: yes, the other things too
AlexPolikowsky: But there is a lot of people new to usnchooling that go there and get all their info on unschooling there.
Shan: I like to remind my kids that I don't in fact know everything. that I am learning how to deal with my emotions, and jim is, now, because we didn't have the freedom to learn as kids.
Bea Mantovani: I struggle with the parenting part, not the unschooling (learning) part
JennyC: oh yes Schuyler that's so true, if parents aren't playful it's really hard to unschool
Jill P: Yes, Schuyler, it's like they can't play and breathe and play with ideas and toys.
Shan: No, I don't either, now. But it was a risky thing, when we made our first tiny stumbling steps....
Barbara in Missouri: I still struggle with unschooling, I question whether I'm doing the right thing
dina: bea, me too. i think its the nature of having not yet school aged kids
reneecabatic: i'm not great at being playful..i am learning to be better
dina: parenting has kicked my ass this week
Schuyler: I think all parents struggle with whether or not they are doing the right thing
laura: I guess my stumbling blocks are how I personally deal with stress
Robinjoined the chat
Schuyler: At least any parent who sees there is more than one way to parent
AlexPolikowsky: I am sure we have all questioned ourselves many times but if you stop and think of the alternatives you can see it more clear
Barbara in Missouri: But my son is usually a really happy person and that helps a LOT compared to the other kids I see around his age
Shan: Dina - it has to have been hellishly hot in the city.....
JennyC: one of the neighbor kids and I play banter sometimes and another neighbor kid just couldn't believe that I would allow him to call me a name and how disrespectful that was, but the little kid is 4 and HE looked at her and said "it's just a game, we're playing"
Bea Mantovani: Dina, you mean we're going to struggle with the learning? Or you mean it's harder to parent younger kids. Somehow, I don't think the learning part is going to get harder... maybe I'm wrong.
Shan: with an oven inside you!
Sandra Dodd: Barbara, do you need to talk about anything particular, or are you doing okay?
Schuyler: That said, I don't really have any doubts. I suppose maybe moments, brief fleeting I wonder what ifs, but not any real doubts
AlexPolikowsky: Bea and Dina you will question yourselves when your kids are older.
dina: bea, i'm hoping that by the time our kids get to be school aged, we will feel more secure in what we're doing. or not. time will tell i guess
Bea Mantovani: oh, LInnea has told me she wants to go to school, so maybe I won't be an unschooler after all :-S
Barbara in Missouri: Thanks, I think I'm doing okey :) I think a little worry is normal and I'm not overly anxious or anything, but it's still there
Sandra Dodd: Alex, I haven't questioned myself many times. J
Sandra Dodd: Just about helping others, not about doing what I did with my kids.
Shan: I'm past serious doubts. Moments that seem insurmountable, here and there. I think then of sandra's words, "Is it the unschooling?" it never is - it's usually me not keeping up with their growth, and getting blindsided.
Or maybe that I've let things fall out of balance, and so we need to adjust.
Schuyler: Mary Gold's words. A very good essay It's not the unschooling, it's the pms seems to be my most frequent awareness, at least once a month
Shan: For me, it's the PMS and the perimeopause together.
dina: schuyler i think hormones and the heat are causing my parenting woes recently
Barbara in Missouri: Connor's 12 and definitely starting puberity :)
Shan: My body is unruly and more unpredictable than it's ever been before...
Ticia: Totally Schuyler!
AlexPolikowsky: There were moments I asked myself if I should have given some "classes" to MD when he wanted to read. It was just moments. and then I would go "nah" and he was reading in a couple of months!
Ticia: Do you have a link to her essay? I'd love to read that.
Schuyler: And if you had put him in a class that powerful piece of knowledge, that owning his own reading, that wouldn't have been his
Sandra Dodd: That's a Mary Gold quote . I'm behind (talking to Holly)
Shan: Jeremiah is almost 9, and in the bullpen for puberty. He's changing inside, thinking very mature abstract thoughts. I think he scares himself, sometimes, because he's not ready to let go of being amall, but wants to be big.
Bea Mantovani: I think my struggles are always going to be in the parenting category, not in the learning category. Maybe moments of doubts about learning, but parenting, it's more than moments, right now.
taggymaejoined the chat
JennyC: oh, I've found that I can't really do much unschooling onlist writing when I'm in PMS mode because I say things all wrong and misread people and then come away feeling blah
Sandra Dodd: look here, maybe it's here:
AlexPolikowsky: Exactly Schuyler. i was able to see that right away. Those are the internal questionings. For a moment you ask yourself and you think about the alternatives . For me that was all I needed.
Ticia: Oh cool thanks :)
Shan: I didn't know it came from Mary Gold. I think I heard it from you in a chat, and it stuck. I use it with Jim, too, when he has those moments of doubt.
AlexPolikowsky: Bea do you think about what you would do instead? How you would parent if not like you do it now?
JennyC: it helps a lot to have a partner that at least understands how to be kind to children
AlexPolikowsky: Yes. it does Jenny. Brian is kind like his dad was to him.
Renee: A lot of our friends hired reading tutors and took reading classes this year (most of the kids are around 6-7 and parents are worried). I never thought it was necessary, and now my 7.5 year old is starting to read and I am so glad that she is having the opportunity to discover it on her own. She is really excited, and I'm fascintated by how it's coming together for her.
JennyC: I never know what to say to mothers whose husbands just seem mean
Shan: Jenny - yes it does. And one who is open to new ideas, and who understand that the parent most often with the kids may have insights they don't.
AlexPolikowsky: IF I was a mean mom maybe Brian would not be as nice as he is. It's a possibility.
Sandra Dodd: I think robbing a child of learning to read on her own can be the biggest blow to unschooling.
CapnFrankojoined the chat
JennyC: the problem seems bigger than unschooling, and that should be worked through first before ever going further with unschooling
Sandra Dodd: Sure if someone comes to it after a child can read, they can't get that back, but if they start early, the deciphering of the written word makes everything else easier for the child AND the mom.
Shan: Lise (just 6) is reading more and more. I have no interest at all in robbing her of it being hers.
JennyC: oh Sandra, that is such a big big thing, and I'm so glad that when I first started people were talking about that and I was able to let go and trust
Schuyler: For me unschooling was actually the most effective parenting approach I knew of, not that I was always good at it, but it certainly responded better to Linnaea's or Simon's needs than any other approach ever did
Shan: I did force lessons on jeremiah. he was reduced to tears, and i was a raving monster. And he quit trying or wanting to read.
JennyC: without ever talking to Chamille about it, she came to that conclusion on her own, that learning how to read gave her the knowledge that if she could do that, then she could do just about anything
Bea Mantovani: alex, yes, I do think about what I would do instead, and it would not be pretty, and it's not going to happen, because I know better (the great majority of the time) and I know it would make things worse. At the same time, sometimes I fantasize about "just" putting everybody in their room and closing
the door.
the door.
Sandra Dodd: So can I get some other "getting it" moments, if you've thought of any?
Sandra Dodd: A child learning to read? I used to figure my kids would learn to read from picture books, stories. And it was video game manuals and maps.
JennyC: yes, exactly our experience too
pam sorooshianjoined the chat
AlexPolikowsky: This past Christmas MD read some X-mas stories at the family gathering and everyone was impressed how good he reads. MY BIL made a comment that one of my friends have said to him that her kid did not read yet and that she should teach him to read. I looked at Brian and we laughed knowing that MD learned to read without any classes or "teaching".
JennyC: although Margaux is learning more from picture books than video games
Shan: Annalise is learning from things around her. At the pool, she proudly told me, "It's 2 feet deep".
dina: i look forward to witnessing logan learning to read, if such a think can be witnessed
Sandra Dodd: It was the time I wanted to tell Marty and Kirby about Roman Numerals that solidified for me that they will learn without me, AND learn without coming to tell me what they learned!
Chrissie: Thanks to reading your website, Sandra, I knew it would be video games and TV that would help my son learn to read!
Renee: When I found unschooling I had no intention of homeschooling. I was searching for answers and help with parenting my then 4 year old. Unschooling principles made the most sense. We came around the idea of homeschooling from there. But, the learning has always made perfect sense to me. The parenting principles and partnership has come with great struggles for me.
Sandra Dodd: That's cool, Chrissie, because I had nobody before me to figure that out. The older unschoolers around me weren't letting their kids play video games much.
Shan: She is reading screens on Scratch. Sometimes, she's got the language set to Spanish, and that doesn't seem to slow her down.
AlexPolikowsky: ad for him and answered questions. We spelled for him and even typed on chats for him and that is pretty much how we helped him to communicate online until he did not need us anymore
dina: i have an interesting reading story that happened to us on the subway a couple of weeks ago. with schooled kids
Chrissie: I think between your website and the Always Learning e-group I "got" a lot of things when my children were young and it has made things so much better for them as they grow.
Steph: my 8yo was not interested in reading at all, so I have left it alone for about 6 months and now she is initiating, and loves playing "Jump Start and I've been seeing the "light bulb" go on for her
Bea Mantovani: I realized when we were in Chile that Linnea knows all the colors in Spanish (and more words) just from watching Dora. That's definitely solidified
"children learn from tv" for me.
"children learn from tv" for me.
JennyC: validating Chamille's love of Pokemon when others around us were calling it a fad and thinking how cool it will be when the fad is finally over. that helped me "get it"
Chrissie: For me I see the learning. It's the learning environment/parenting issues I still struggle with sometimes.
Shan: We were in a bathroom and she looked up and commented,"how come that only says Fire and not Alarm? It's a fire alarm."
laura: every so often when i start thinking perhaps I need to atleast introduce a topic they will say something that makes me see it isnt necessary
Chrissie: Same here, Laura :-)
Sandra Dodd: Oh, Jenny! I don't know how many times people have said "I'll be glad when they get over this... [Ninja Turtles, or Video-game-thing, or pogs, or Magic]" As if it's a disease.
Ticia: I don't really know *how* Chloe learned to read. She just went from understanding letters and sounds to reading chapter books when she was about 8 it all just clicked.
JennyC: seeing the learning in EVERYthing was really a big "getting it" point
laura: for ex. yesterday my 8 year old said, " i threw abby (our 14 year old dog) in the yard", I said, Oh please don't throw her she will break her leg. : my son said, I didn't mean literally
Ticia: I know she learned just recognizing how to read street signs since we drove around so much then.
dina: ugh. that makes me so sad. I had many of my interests belittled as a kid.
Shan: i found out the other day that Miah knows about green cards, and green card marriages...I think from My name is Earl, which he loved at 6 or so.
dina: my mother still does it to this day
Ticia: Raiden is almost 8 and he is recognizing words from being online or playing wii, or everywhere else I suppose.
JennyC: Chamille was waiting a a bus stop the other day and there were a couple of older teen punk rockers sitting with her and they were all talking about their love of Pokemon and how much they STILL love Pokemon
dina: jenny, that makes me smile
Steph: I'm excited to see it happen for my 5 yo b/c my oldest learned in kindergarten (only time she was in school) and I subjected my poor 8yo to the "Teach your child to read in 100 easy lessons" and I think that put her OFF reading
Shan: jenny Pokemon are hugely important in our lives. I can't imagine not having them here with us, now....
Sandra Dodd: Dina I missed your subway story. Is it up there?
dina: no do u wanna hear it? i usually take a couple of books and other toys (limited to what i can carry in a backpack) on the train to pass the time
JennyC: I had an anonymous person thank me on my blog about a Pokemon post and how it inspired him to continue his love of Pokemon even though he's now an adult
Robin: Jenny. Yay for Pokemon!!
dina: btw, logan learned letters from the subway map
Chrissie: My 13 yro daughter, Gabrielle is really into the Twilight Saga right now. She has conversations with adults about them all the time. Really makes me feel bad for the children who aren't allowed to read them.
dina: we had a book out that we've read a lot and logan seems to know the story by heart. some older kids saw the book and wanted to "read" it. kids were DEFINITELY school aged and they didn't seem to be able to read. the two kids made up their own story and i didn't make a deal out of it
JennyC: and then, just as we are talking about Pokemon, Robin shows up, she must have sensed it!
laura: my kids learned alot of their letters from walking around a graveyard
Robin: Do-do-do-do
JennyC: oh, yes, I was sitting for a 9 yr old girl last year and she was trying to read the Twilight books in private, hiding it from her mother
Shan: Jenny - how sad.
AlexPolikowsky: that is so sad Jenny.
JennyC: which is unfortunate because there are things in those books that should be discussed if the kid is so young
AlexPolikowsky: My parents did not censure us at all. We saw and read anything we wanted.
JennyC: there is a lot of sex talk that could come across as very confusing for a 9 yr old
Chrissie: Mine tried to censure me, but I went behind their back and read or watched whatever I wanted anyway, so I don't censure my children at all.
Ticia: Yep absolutely Jenny and Chrissie, I've noticed that with so many mom's around here comign up with some arbitrary age that they can read it.
Sandra Dodd: Holly had a friend who "could read" (Holly thought) and had pet rats, and a book about the rats. Holly had rats too, and then wanted to get that book. I bought it for her.
Shan: My parents didn't know all the books they had, and i was too voracious to keep tabs on. =)
dina: but i thought it was telling since here if a kid can't read by the end of kindergarten (usually 5 yr old) they're are left back. part of "no child left behind bullshit
Ticia: And now is when *they* are interested.
Sandra Dodd: She turned to a place that the friend had read to her, to read it, and it was all different. The friend had been making it up.
JennyC: that's telling isn't it?
AlexPolikowsky: what they call reading in kindergarten is not real reading most of the time
Shan: Jeremiah proved his comprehension, regarding The red badge of Courage, which he read at 7.
JennyC: not even remotely
Ticia: I agree Alex.
Robin: I had a "getting it" moment yesterday. Senna and I drove out to a favorite old-timey burger and shake stand. It was really busy and when I went to get our order, they'd forgotten my hot dog. We were in a rush, so I just took my shake and Senna's food and left. I told her as I got in the car that they messed up the order. Senna is the kind of person who hates to share her food, especially if she feels forced to, to be polite. She offered me one of her coveted chicken strips and I smiled to myself. She came to it on her own accord with sweetness and thoughtfulness. Sigh...
JennyC: and the kids that can read before they get to kindergarten are labeled gifted, at least that is what happened to a friend of ours
Chrissie: My 10 yro son is not interested in reading chapter books but he reads other things all the time.
Ticia: That's good to hear Robin :)
CapnFranko: Our neice who's been unschooling wtih us was considered a "good" reader at school. She's terrible. Slow and labored reading with very poor comprehension.
Chrissie: He really enjoys reading cheat codes for his video games.
Shan: he fell off his bike, and hurt his hand. When it was clean, and sprayed to dull the pain, I took pictures, telling him it was a battle scar, or a badge of courage. he studied the wound, and proclaimed, "well, it is a redDISH badge of courage." Loved that moment!
JennyC: that's a big deal isn't it Robin?! It's those moments that you realize that what you do is working
AlexPolikowsky: That is another beef I have. WHY do kids need to read chapter books? I was a voraciour reader and I still love comic books but some parents even ban them or do not consider real reading.
Steph: Some of those chapter books are seriously boring!!
Robin: Yes, exactly. Leaving that shaming behind when she didn't want to share her food gave her the space to do it because she wanted to.
Chrissie: I am so thankful for my son teaching me that, Alex.
dina: alex, i don't understand that either. i'm not even sure i know what a chapter book is
Sandra Dodd: Go easy with the "teaching me" Chrissie. The alarms go off.
JennyC: Chamille skipped all those boring chapter books and went straight to manga and real books
Chrissie: Sorry, what is a good substitute word, Sandra, because I can never remember one?
Sandra Dodd: learn
AlexPolikowsky: Dina Books with chapter and NO pictures
Sandra Dodd: And you can't just plug it in, you need to rephrase to make it a statement about learning instead of teaching, but it's worth it. Seriously.
CapnFranko: Alex, I'm happy for people who like to farm and garden and that kind of stuff. But keep it away from me. Eek!
cindy: Bye all, have a nice week...
pam sorooshian: Chrissie - it is because "teach" is an action of the teacher, not of the learner. Lots of teaching doesn't involve any learning at all.
JennyC: I always thought of the "chapter" books as being ones like Beverly Cleary books
Steph: I love how my oldest, who can and does read just about anything, when she hears me reading Clifford to my youngest still comes and climbs on my lap too. :-)
Chrissie: Okay so I learned from my son chapter books aren't a big deal... hows that?
JennyC: designed for certain ages
pam sorooshian: So it is helpful to look at the learning - helps you get unschooling better.
AlexPolikowsky: YOu are a city boy you Franko!
Sandra Dodd: Better.
Shan: Miah devoured a wide array of books (four harry potters, lots of childres illustrated classics, at 7. really read no books for quite a few moths, then a few mangas. NatGeo kids, and game screens. Now he likes Goosebumps and other similar ones, and loves to read aloud to Annalise.
CapnFranko: Alex, damned right! Very anti-bucolic, anyway. You'll never see me in the garden or beyond.
Sandra Dodd: So I think "chapter book" is a term related to two things in teacher-education and school-ese: Book reports and "SSR" (sustained silent reading)
Shan: Usually, he reads her riddles or poetry, and with great expressiveness.
AlexPolikowsky: I will see you in high seas!!!!
dina: i remember the SSR books!
pam sorooshian: My kids always thought "chapter book" was a very patronizing, condescending term.
Sandra Dodd: Requiring "a real book" and not a picture book for reports, and the practice of teachers arranging a quiet time for kids to read without interruption.
CapnFranko: Alex, a serious YES for that!
dina: different colors. i was that annoying kid that was always ahead. but i LOVED to read
CapnFranko: ts of chapetr books. lol
CapnFranko: That should be: With lots of chapter books.
JennyC: and schools make a big deal about what reading level a child can read at and give only books for the reading level that child is at according to their idea of what that is defined by
Shan: i would read Shakespeare for fun at home, and Star trek novels in class, cause i am a rebel like that.
dina: until book reports were required. then i didn't read another book from cover to cover until adulthood
pam sorooshian: i think chapter books - the terminology and idea - come from breaking teaching into very small steps. It is one of the steps - to read a chapter book.
Shan: I'd do book reports on the Star trek books, too.
Chrissie: Awesome, Shan!!
AlexPolikowsky: I was a great reader in elementary school but my older brother, same class. was not. He turned out to be a poet and write songs and I can't barely write.
CapnFranko: "Reading level" is so subjective. Hemingway is very simple in structure.
Bea Mantovani: my mom (who used to be a teacher) told me the other day that a little girl we know can read, and then she added "well, she can read what she has to read in school." which to me, means she can't really read
Steph: any books on tape anyone can recommend for a road trip? 3 girls ages 5, 8 and 10 (just listened to "A Cricket in Times Square")
Shan: Alex - he needed his own time. that's cool!
Sandra Dodd: What bothered me is that there came to be an assumption that "chapter books" outranked picture books in every way, but after the first Boxcar Children book they were formulaic pap, and yet those were "chapter books." Meanwhile things with real art, poetry and philosophical depth like Yertle the Turtle, The Sneetches, Frog and Toad are considered "baby books."
JennyC: we loved The Series of Unfortunate Events, book on CD, Tim Curry!
Sandra Dodd: And that's pig-ignorant
pam sorooshian: steph ---- Neil Gaimon's The Graveyard Book was great as an audio book.
Shan: Steph - i love that story! i was just thinking Jeremiah, who loves EB white and ralph S. Mouse, would likely enjoy it.
JennyC: I love Frog and Toad!!!!
Shan: My kids like Magic Treehouse audiobooks.
pam sorooshian: Boxcar children books were pretty low level, too, and repeitive. I read them all out loud to rosie. LOTS of lists of things to buy at the store.
AlexPolikowsky: Well then I guess MD reads chapter books then as he has been reading Boxcar Children.
Steph: ooh thanks for the suggestions!
JennyC: Angela Landsbury did one book on cd, but I can't remember the name of it, but it was a good story
pam sorooshian: before those there were novels for children....Edward Eager -- Half Magic, etc. E. Nesbitt before that.
Sandra Dodd: The first Boxcar Children book is awesome, though. The others have nothing to do with it.
Steph: thanks Jenny-- I'll look for that, I love her voice
JennyC: the Golden Compass was nice on cd, but probably too much for a 5 yr old
Sandra Dodd: It's the sun, and they're dim glow-in-the-dark bugs by comparison.
Chrissie: The Harry Potter series, Steph
Shan: Jpam - boxacar children were all the rage doe about three months, with jeremiah. he gobbled them up, one after another. Then he just dropped them. We found one on the floor in his room yesterday, and he commented on not having read any in a while.
pam sorooshian: yeah - golden compass, the first one, was almost too mch for me as an audible book, Jenny.
Sandra Dodd: I think after the second book they weren't even by the original author.
JennyC: oh Half Magic!!! We loved that book, I loved it when I was a kid too
AlexPolikowsky: I just got some for MD because they were in the comic format that he loves,. He read one so fast that we did not even make it home from the library.
Sandra Dodd: But it made no sense to continue the series anyway. All the really good stuff happens in the first book.
Jill P: Steph - books on CD Dragon Rider by Cornelia Funke, Brendan Fraser is the reader, he is AWESOME!!
dinajoined the chat
Steph: was Golden Compass a good book? Didn't enjoy the movie too much
Shan: yes, sandra - Miah said the same...he loved the adventure in the first, the suspense, the kids making their own way in the world, and living so simply together.
Sandra Dodd: Oh, Holly wants to do a Barbie-dress-up series of Brendan Fraser in "Bedazzled," all the characters the devil made him.
Shan: Half magic!!!!!! OMG i LOVED that book!
Sandra Dodd: Mrs. Coverlet's Magicians is a good kid-book from the 1960's. Very good story. Don't know if it's still around.
Steph: great, the girls are very into dragons lately
pam sorooshian: Half Magic was not on the approved list for state of california reading. Roya's fourth grade teacher wasn't allowed to read it to the class.
JennyC: the book is way better than the movie, the movie was a bit contrived, in my opinion
Sandra Dodd: Because of the magic, Pam?
dina: would it be possible to compile a list of all these books? a lot of work i know
RobinB: Steph, we loved The House at Pooh Corner, narrated by Peter Dennis. Your ten year old might still like to hear those stories.
Chrissie: I've heard How to Train Your Dragon is a good book for children who like dragons.
JennyC: what was the reason Pam?
Sandra Dodd: Dina, it will be in the transcript of this chat.
dina: or maybe just the transcript and i can do it myself
pam sorooshian: No - Half Magic was off the list because it was ----- old. NO other reason.
pam sorooshian: The teacher and I were planning a math intensive week of fun (Family Math night and other things durin gthe day)
Shan: Annalise has four Little Toot books leftover from last summer's passion. The original was published in 1939. The language is rich and not at all condescending, and neither were the ideas.
JessicaOjoined the chat
AlexPolikowsky: girls I got to go check Gigi is in the barn helping my niece wash heifers. She has been there all along and I should go check!
JessicaO: hi everyone!
pam sorooshian: I wanted her to read Half Magic as their after-lunch read aloud. Principal wouldn't approve it.
AlexPolikowsky: Have a great week everyone!
Sandra Dodd: Bye, Alex.
JennyC: bye alex
dina: bye alex!
Steph: bye alex!
RobinB: Also A.A. Milne's poetry, Now We are Six and When We Were Very Young. Now We Are Six is the first book I remember reading.
CapnFranko: Bye, Alex.
RobinB: Bye, Alex.
Sandra Dodd: Jessica, do you have any current situations or successes to report? You have two minutes.
JessicaO: bye alex
pam sorooshian: Little Toot - LOVE it.
Sandra Dodd: Holly really liked Now We are Six.
Shan: So sad. half magic was a wonderful read. Loved the cat named Nervous saying"sic,sic".
pam sorooshian: I collect picture books - have a LOT.
Steph: cool, lots of these are on iTunes
JessicaO: well we just brought home a puppy we rescued on 7/4... not exactly unschooling stuff...
Sandra Dodd: Shan, it's still there. Nothing to be sad about.
Sandra Dodd: Rescued stray?
RobinB: My favorite poem started "Tattoo was the mother of Pinkle Purr..."
Sandra Dodd: Or the pound?
JessicaO: but he had bad hookworms & was very anemic, spent wknd at vet getting transfusion & he's getting better now slowly
JessicaO: we found him on the street on 7/4
Shan: She asked 23 different questions once during a readinf of Little Toot on thr Thames. sad that it's ot allowed in CA schools.
pam sorooshian: I'm still buying picture books - and my baby is 19. My 22 yo and I spent a few hours in a bookstore a couple of weeks ago - looking at picture books.
JennyC: shel silverstein has wonderful poetry for kids
RobinB: Yeah, we loved him, too.
Steph: "My beard grows to my toes, I never wears no clothes"...:-)
JessicaO: we get them before they'd make it to a shelter (or get killed)
JessicaO: steph, what is that?
Steph: "I wraps my hair around my bare and down the road I goes!"
Shan: both kids love him. Lise is loving Eve Merriam's blackberry Ink just now.
JennyC: shel silverstein
Steph: that's Shel Silverstein's "My Beard"
RobinB: Canadian author Dennis Lee writes some fine poetry, too.
JessicaO: cool, which ss book?
Steph: from Where the Sidewalk Ends
JessicaO: ah ok, i may have that someplace
dina: i have a friend who says she's unschooling who is actually trying to keep her almost 6 year old to learn how to read
JessicaO: among storage stuffs
Steph: loved those when I was a kid-- and the sharp toothed snail who was a deterrent to nose pickers
Sandra Dodd: Keith just got home and I need to go make food, but please feel free to continue to name cool books and tell stories of "getting it" as long as you want, and I'll edit this transcript and put a list of books on a sidebar.
Shan: Miiah went through a big Robert Louis stevenson poem phase.
Sandra Dodd: Thanks for being here, very much. I love these chats.
Sandra Dodd: Thanks for being here, very much. I love these chats.
RobinB: Bye Sandra. And wish Keith a happy belated birthday for me.
dina: thanks for having them sandra
Shan: I do too. Thank you for having them.
Bea Mantovani: bye sandra!
Steph: thanks Sandra!
JennyC: wait, what? She's trying to keep her 6 yr old from reading?
Jill P: Bye Sandra, thanks.
JessicaO: thanks sandra! sorry i got here at the end... my sons were using the computer
Sandra Dodd: Holly too! A Child's Garden of Verses, a little book my Mamaw gave to me. bucket full of stars.
CapnFranko: Time for me to scoot, too. Later, all!
Chrissie: Bye Sandra
JessicaO: happy birthday to Keith!
Steph: bye all!
Sandra Dodd: Jessica, put it on your list: "another computer"
Sandra Doddleft the chat
RobinB: Bye Franko
JennyC: bye Sandra
Bea Mantovani: bye Frank
pam sorooshian: Whiskers and Rhymes --- great little poems and awesome pictures.
JennyC: dang I missed her!
Shan: Yup,,,,that's it. when was Keith's birthday?
JessicaO: actually we DO have another, but we think the mobo died a couple weeks ago, we'll get one asap!
dina: jenny, yeah. she won't answer any questions he has about words or letters. doesnt want him to learn to read yet
Shan: who won't ley their 6yo read?!
RobinB: Dina, she's been reading Steiner? or Moore?
JennyC: that is exactly not at all about unschooling!
pam sorooshian: One of the poems is "Books to the ceiling, books to the sky, my pile of books is a mile high. HOw I love them. How I need them. I'll be an old man by the time I read them."
Chrissie: Does she do Waldorf, Dina?
JessicaO: <--wonders 6="" a="" as="" from="" how="" keeping="" like="" me="" o:p="" old="" qualifies="" reading="" to="" unschooling..sounds="" waldorf="" yr="">
Shan: I love that.
dina: yup. waldorf. no reading until he has adult teeth. which is possibly the most f-ed up thing i've ever heard
RobinB: Waldorf...no black paint or crayons and no reading. What a bunch of hogwash.
JennyC: oh goodness, Margaux would have had to wait a long time!
Chrissie: Waldorf nothing like unschooling!
Jill P: Oh yeah, I had a friend...her kid wanted to read , but she wouldn't let her. Yeah something aobut the two front teeth, had to have them , I think.
RobinB: Steiner was a nut.
Shan: I would have to blindfold Lise to stop her learning to read. Not only that, but she'd still be feeling the braille and trying to read that.
JessicaO: my youngest was losing baby teeth at 4-1/2 (youngest in my group) and he wasn't really interested in reading in a giant hurry
Jill P: that was a waldorf mom.
dina: we're seeing this friend on wed. so its on my mind right now
JessicaO: actually i wonder if steiner would approve of the waldorf interpretations... don't think they had tv then
dina: just gets my goat that she calls them "waldorf inspired unschoolers" or some such thing
RobinB: Perhaps not, but he was still a complete nut.
JessicaO: lol
pam sorooshian: Roxana read fluently at 3 and lost teeth very very late.
pam sorooshian: its crap
JennyC: I have a friend like that, but she's not weird about it, she likes all the crafts and such
pam sorooshian: applied to individuals, its crap
RobinB: Dolls without faces. Sigh.
dina: the dolls creep me out
pam sorooshian: the only thing i like about waldorf is beeswax crayons and silk scarves .
JessicaO: all 4 of my boys "got" reading around 6 or 7 (the older 3 were in school, so were pushed but they would've read or not with or w/o the pushing)
Shan: Lise has a little wooden dollhouse doll without a face. Only one....have't seen it in a whiel.
RobinB: The crayons were cool. No black, though .
JessicaO: i think i had a waldorf box w/a black crayon, can't remember
pam sorooshian: my kids didn't like the beeswax crayons so much. "I" like them --
RobinB: Oh, heresy.
Shan: Annalise was playing with beeswax sheets last night. I think she'd like beeswax crayons.
RobinB: Yeah, me too, Pam.
Chrissie: I gotta go. It was nice chatting with you guys :-)
JessicaO: lol that almost sounds like the opposite of watercolor: no white for watercolor (tho my watercolor box has white but
pam sorooshian: no jessica - doubt it - they're very adamant about no black.
Shan: I love the smell of beeswax.
JessicaO: you're not supposed to use it... i use it)
RobinB: They smell so good, those beeswax crayons.
dina: didn't mean to derail the conversation. just thinking about reading and how keeping a kid from reading seems neglectful to me
JessicaO: pam i know... i don't remember if mine had black or not
Shan: it seems futile and cruel, to me. if he's ready, he is.
pam sorooshian: i knew a family who kept their kids from reading.
pam sorooshian: they had almost no books in the house.
RobinB: Weird.
pam sorooshian: seriousy - one shelf with a handful of children's golden books.
Shan: Ugh! We've got those mile high piles, here.
RobinB: Do you know why?
pam sorooshian: it was based on the old "Moore Philosophy" ---- better late than early.
Shan: Better when they're ready to do it.
RobinB: Oh, yeah. That only worked for me because Senna was a "late" reader anyway
pam sorooshian: Ray and Dorothy Moore didn't allow fiction, either.
JessicaO: paper scissors stone sells waldorf art supplies & one of their boxes has black
JessicaO: in their 12 color box
pam sorooshian: mine read at 3 (young 3), 5 and 8.
dina: i just don't know what to say to my friend when she brings up the fact that her kid is interested in reading
RobinB: At least they didn't like the HSLDA Oh, now there's a derailing topic. Never mind!
JessicaO: why no fiction??
Shan: I would not do well there...fictional stories make themselves up in my head constantly.
pam sorooshian: when I say "read" I mean could read and understand pretty much anything.
RobinB: Dina, would she read opposing views?
dina: i think she has. she's full of fear
dina: about EVERYTHING
RobinB: Or Waldorf horror stories?
RobinB: Fear is not good for unschooling.
pam sorooshian: i don't remember why the Moore's disapproved of fiction. Their philosophy is to live a 3 part life --- 1/3 work, 1/3 study, 1/3 service.
dina: i know she has sandra's book. she wanted to give it to me
RobinB: Waldorf without fear would be better.
Shan: Miah was 5, but would have sooner, if i hadn't ruined it. Lise, at 6, is doing more and more reading, but can't manage whole books yet.. I have a feeling it will be sudden when it happens.
JessicaO: what about sleep?
RobinB: Snort!
RobinB: And eating.
JessicaO: yeah!
JessicaO: lol!
RobinB: And sex.
Shan: And a little play?!
RobinB: And dancing.
RobinB: And singing.
