Please come to the chat and share some of your DEschooling epiphanies about what is logical or mathematical that was never touched on in school, and maybe some stories of cool discoveries your kids have made.
Read more about multiple intelligences here: http://sandradodd.com/intelligences/
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Sandra Dodd: For Logical/Mathematical Intelligence I would like to recommend very highly the game Logical Journey of the Zoombinis.
Marta Venturini: I think Parvine is coming. She just got home.
Sandra Dodd: Not the other game they made later, but this one.
Sandra Dodd: For a while it was out of print. Now it has been refurbished for android and iPads. Probably iPhones, but I don't know. -)Sandra Dodd: Is there anyone here who nows Zoombinis already?
Parvine: Yes! Just got in. Thank you Marta.
Sandra Dodd: It has a dozen games or so, and frame story, of these little creatures (who are also part of the puzzles, sometimes, by attributes of appearance) from the starting place to the end, by one of two paths.
Parvine: zoombinis. Yes we know that!
Sandra Dodd: Every puzzle is mathematical, and zero puzzles have any numbers or counting.
Sandra Dodd: It's really wonderful.
Sandra Dodd: After years of the "old folks" (me, Pam Sorooshian, others with kids now 25-30) bragging this game up, it wasn't working on any but the oldest desktop computers anymore. SO SAD.
Serah: so it's a computer game?
Marta Venturini: I have it on my phone, but we haven't tried it out yet (mainly because my screen is too small...)
Sandra Dodd: But because there were so many fans (among 20-somethings and their moms) a crowd-funding revamp was completed.
Sandra Dodd: It's great on a tablet.
Marta Venturini: We need to get a new iPad!
Sandra Dodd: I think it can be on a computer, too, but being able to touch instead of using a mouse makes it extra sweet beause there's a cuteness factor.
Sandra Dodd: There are quotes from that that became part of our vocabulary here (a Louisiana-accented "Sit where you want to, I don't really care." and "Something about that, I don't like!"
Sandra Dodd: And they don't tell you HOW to work the puzzles. That's the real puzzle!
Marta Venturini: 
Parvine: We played it back then way before ipads and touch world... A big computer
Sandra Dodd: Just as with the card game Set, there are things that younger kids see easily, and adults are over thinking. And nearly everyone has one leve or another that stumps them, and they get help from someone else.
Sandra Dodd: There's one I spotted the first time I played it, the lion statue in the cave, but I've explained it to Kirby (as an adult) and Holly (as a kid 10 or so), when they were otherwise running circles around me in that game with the deductive reasoning games.
Sandra Dodd: Some are patterns, or grids, and some are matching, and some are elimination/deduction.
Sandra Dodd: If you go to an app store or android games site, look for Zoombinis and get the one that says Logical Journey.
Sandra Dodd: No reading required, and high-level reasoning, so that's what makes it awesome. A math-minded child who can't read can still perform some feats of higher reasoning.
Marta Venturini: Cool
Marta Venturini: Now I really want to try it out. 
Parvine: Leili enjoyed Mountain Rescue.
Sandra Dodd: They're offering to let me download to my computer, so I guess they have all platforms.
Sandra Dodd: I think Mountain Rescue is less elegant, is all.
Sandra Dodd: https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=...
Sandra Dodd: That might be images from the game.
Marta Venturini: Oh, they've got it on Steam!
Sandra Dodd: Yes—but the graphics are very sharp and clear. They re-mastered them, but didn't change them. Same with the sound. Kept it all the same, but re-did it so it's clearer. SWEET for those engineers not to tamper with it, but just to restore it.
Parvine: Perfect! Steam is wonderful!
Marta Venturini:
Marta Venturini: Gonna get it for Conchinha. And for us!
Serah: looks cool!
Sandra Dodd: So did anyone bring a story about logical/mathematical intelligence?
Sandra Dodd: I have a confession of a failure in me, and some of you probably don't have this problem.
Sandra Dodd: I can't prepare a complicated meal and get everything ready and out at the same time.
Sandra Dodd: I know it involves a kind of flow chart image, working backwards from the time you want it on the table.
Sandra Dodd: But it's hard for me, and I screw up.
Sandra Dodd: There are meals with two or three things that I can pull off. :0)
Sandra Dodd: Or if some of the dishes are very make-ahead.
Sandra Dodd: And I'm pretty good at breakfast, even if there's meat, eggs and pancakes or waffles.
Sandra Dodd: But dinner scares me and I don't even try Thanksgiving. We go to potlucks.
Marta Venturini:
Marta Venturini: I write everything down. How long it takes to do this and that, and what needs to come first, etc.
Serah: I get lots of practice with this in Ramadhan, since the only meal of the day needs to be ready to serve just after sunset. No one wants to be waiting around for things to finish cooking once the breaking - fast time sets in
Marta Venturini: Then I just need to look at it and follow my schedule.
Marta Venturini: Would that not work for you, Sandra?
Sandra Dodd: It might, Marta, but who will ever know?
Marta Venturini: Hehehehehe
Sandra Dodd: Writing it down seems to be cheating. It's an emotional problem, I think
Sandra Dodd: But there are things I can make that are good, and I can do homemade hamburgers with NICE toppings and such, but because I think of that as one thing.
Parvine: And I cook several meals at once every few days , some to freeze and in between quicker meals.
Marta Venturini: I'm a cheater, then??
Marta Venturini: Heheheheh
Sandra Dodd: You're smart and I'm wounded.
Serah: i think about what I need to cook and how long it takes to prepare and what can wait before serving and what cant
Sandra Dodd: For years Keith and I watched CBS Sunday Morning in the bed. YEARS and years. And then he would go to the SCA fighting practice, without eating breakfast, and come back later.
Sandra Dodd: His TV stopped getting that channel clearly.
Sandra Dodd: He wasn't able to go to pratices for a long time.
Sandra Dodd: He wasn't able to go to pratices for a long time.
Sandra Dodd: So we watch it upstairs next to the kitchen, and I make breakfast.
Sandra Dodd: Twice I've had it all ready right on time. I'm aiming at between 7:55 and 8:00, because Keith won't show up until the show's about to start, and I don't want fried eggs to get cold.
Sandra Dodd: Serah, are Ramadhan's dishes all hot? How many hot dishes?
Sandra Dodd: Pam Sorooshian's religion has a stay-up-all-night New Year's meal, but it's not hot food. So that seems easy.
Parvine: keeping food warm in low temp. oven an option?
Serah: no, not all. Soups / salads, smoothies can be made ahead
Sandra Dodd: If you're cooking and you taste, do you spoil all the juju?
Sandra Dodd: Do the guys leave the house so they don't need to smell it cooking?
Serah: depends what I'm making. Most things can wait or be kept warm
Serah: lol. Juju! If you are cooking and fasting, then NO tasting... just wing it and hope for the best
Sandra Dodd: Well I didn't want to ask "is it a sin," but what I meant was if you break the fast can you still finish cooking for other people?
Sandra Dodd: Or are you disqualified and the alternate cook needs to jump in?
Serah: I try to start cooking about 2 hours before sunset so they don't have to be agonizing all day over the lovely food smells
Serah: oh! no, the cook does not need to be fasting. Its not like a requirement.
Sandra Dodd: Chess is a class logic game.
Sandra Dodd: Go / Baduk.
Serah: Blockus
Sandra Dodd: Backgammon.
Serah: tetris
Sandra Dodd: But there are modern logic games, on tables with pieces like that. And on computers, they're countless and evolving.
Sandra Dodd: Any child who enjoys anything like that should be encouraged to do more!
Sandra Dodd: Another game that's great on a tablet that requires almost no reading (someone can read what few things need to be read) is Plants vs. Zombies, original version. HD version, if you're looking through them, is good.
Sandra Dodd: It's a tower siege game—you're defending the house from approaching zombies.
Sandra Dodd: But then there are mini-games within it, and one of them, you're playing as the zombies.
Sandra Dodd: And there's no better way to get great at the game than by seeing how the zombies can get through various defenses.
Serah: i love that game!
Sandra Dodd: That game teaches itself as you play it, too. They introduce one element at a time, and show you how to use it. As it gets more complicated, they do a super clever thing. They set up a screen where you start thinking, "I with they had a plant that did...[whatever]." And at the end of that screen, they give you one. So you've just spent some time WISHING for that "power," and then you have it available from then on.
So you've just spent some time WISHING for that "power," and then you have it available from then on.
Marta Venturini: I wish I had more time to play all of these games! ,)
Marta Venturini:
Serah: i can only play it so many times though till i've figured out the best zombie fighting protocol
Sandra Dodd: But you can only use six or seven or eight (right? or five/six/seven) things at a time. So they show you the scenario, and which zombies are going to come, and then you choose your plants.
Marta Venturini: Conchinha played Plants vs. Zombies a bit, I think right after your visit here Sandra (because you showed it to her on your iPad, remember?), but then she dropped it. She's been minecrafting tons, so that's taking up most of her time. That and watching YouTube videos about minecraft.
Serah: Marta, I haven't played since my daughter was born.... no time ;-(
Sandra Dodd: I may be that Minecraft trumps all else.
Sandra Dodd: That's cool.
Sandra Dodd: I wanted to deposit some ideas, though, and reassurance that mathematical reasoning doesn't need to have numbers.
Serah: what about Candy crush?
Marta Venturini:
Serah: I played tons of that too, back in the day
Sandra Dodd: Is it a match four?
Marta Venturini: Never played it.
Serah: yeah in different combos
Sandra Dodd: Another very favorite game of mine and Keith's (and Joyce Fetteroll and her math-teaching husband Carl) is Flip Pix.
Sandra Dodd: Deduction.
Sandra Dodd: Julie Daniel is really (really) good at it. I'm not.
Sandra Dodd: I don't do the hardest levels.
Sandra Dodd: But I love the easier levels.
Serah: I tried playing that with no success ;-(
Serah: my brain doesn't work that way at all
Sandra Dodd: http://www.gabysoft.com/flippix-art.aspx Some are free, some are $2.
Sandra Dodd: Someone wrote there: "Good mind game. Very addicting and is sort of like minesweeper and sudoku.
Marta Venturini: Checking them out too. I think it might be my kind of game!
Sandra Dodd: I can't play sudoku at all, and minesweeper is too hard for me.
Sandra Dodd: But I can do Flip Pix if it's not a 20x20 grid. (I can do it then, too, but I don't want to.)
Sandra Dodd: Better—screen shots up close.
Sandra Dodd: http://www.gabysoft.com/FlipPixScreenSho...
Serah: same for me with sudoku. Id rather play scrabble
Sandra Dodd: That's a 15x15
Sandra Dodd: Scrabble, I don't like.
Sandra Dodd: Scrabble is a math game, not English.
Sandra Dodd: It disguises itself as vocabulary or words, but it's all logical/mathematical.
Sandra Dodd: I have a suggestion in case you or one of your kids is numbers-impaired. I can't remember a phone number across the room. I have to write it down. (I cheat .
.
Sandra Dodd: Keith can remember it for an hour or two.
Sandra Dodd: Keith knows all of our social security numbers (his, mine, the kids') and bank account numbers and phone numbers, all just in his head.
Serah: scrabble, math!? NOOOOOO
Sandra Dodd: When I'm cooking, if it says "four cups," I will lose track. Many times, I have lost track and started over.
Sandra Dodd: Werid.
Sandra Dodd: BUT THIS: This is what I figured out works.
Sandra Dodd: Count backwards.
Sandra Dodd: I never lose count if I count backwards.
Sandra Dodd: I don't know or care why, but it works, so I do it.
Marta Venturini: Good tip!
Parvine: we also enjoyed the first Portal puzzle style game. http://www.valvesoftware.com/games/porta...
Serah: cool
Sandra Dodd: Right, lots of people fell into Portal and came back out months later.
Sandra Dodd: I was hoping to tell Jill today that Marty and friends went to a life-size puzzle room in Fort Collins (where Jill lives). There are codes and locks and hidden things, and the goal is to get out of the room on your own, in an hour, instead of having the attendants open the door and throw you out as losers at the end of an hour. They made it.
Marta Venturini: Is that one for pc, Parvine?
AlexPolikowsky7: I lose track of cups baking too! But I can memorize long numbers easy!
Sandra Dodd: Serah, thinking in words doesn't help me with Scrabble. it's dealing with the values and bonuses that I can't do.
Parvine: Yes it is on PC through Steam.
Marta Venturini: Ok, thanks!
AlexPolikowsky7: Brian memorized numbers like that. He knows most of his cows registration numbers. And they are like 8-12
AlexPolikowsky7: Digits
Marta Venturini: I used to memorize numbers easily too. Not so much now. 
AlexPolikowsky7: So Faniel
Serah: This is why I love scrabble on the iphone.... the computer does all the calculating and i just make words trying to use the bonus spots.... kinda like cheating
Sandra Dodd: OH! Something somewhere someone said she was taking the easy way.
Sandra Dodd: I don't think it was in here. I think it was on Always Learning.
Sandra Dodd: I meant to comment on that—TAKE THE EASY WAY!
Sandra Dodd: There is so much to do in life, I will say as "an old person" right now, if you have any "easy way" then take it.
Marta Venturini:
AlexPolikowsky7: Daniel says he is going to college for physics and he is interested in astrophysics. He has picked up many books in the library on algebra and calculus because he says he needs those for physics. He was worried about , what if...
AlexPolikowsky7: I presume being bored, not being able to keep reading the books.
Sandra Dodd: Is there a community college up there that he can take some classes without enrolling full time?
AlexPolikowsky7: Yes I am going to look into that but he maybe a bit too young
Sandra Dodd: My friend Jeff studied engineering. He wanted to work on electric cars. But he ended up doing programming for a system medical offices use for records and billing. He made a bunch of money.
AlexPolikowsky7: I was thinking after he comes back from Japan. But I should look into it for this fall.
AlexPolikowsky7: I heard there is a really good astronomy teacher there but unlikely that he would be able to get in his class . It is apparently highly sought after ( did I spell that right?)
Serah: Sandra, we have something like that here it's called Escape Room - I REALLY want to go!
AlexPolikowsky7: We have that here too!! Is that fun? I know the owner of the local one!
Sandra Dodd: But both of his parents had PhDs and were professors—his dad in the teaching of trades/shop, and his mom in nursing.
Sandra Dodd: So I asked him one time why he hadn't gotten a PhD in history. He could have walked through that with his eyes closed, because he LOVEd all kinds of history and remembered and connected and understood EVERYTHING.
Sandra Dodd: He said that it was too easy. It wouldn't have been hard.
Parvine: Serah. In London there is Escape Land
AlexPolikowsky7: Daniel has asked me why I don't work as a lawyer. He was very interested in that.
Serah: oooh!! 
Sandra Dodd: Engineering, he said, was more manly and would impress people.
Sandra Dodd: Does escape land have more than one puzzle, I'm guessing?
Sandra Dodd: Enigma has a secret room.
Sandra Dodd: It's really two rooms, and one thing you figure out is that some codes are in the other room. Then you need to find the entrance to the other room.
AlexPolikowsky7: There is some genetics. Both my dad and my mom's brother were amazingly engeneer oriented people . They could work on anything. Neither had degrees. My dad was a photographer and my uncle did always work with electronics and such.
Sandra Dodd: Marty was telling me lots of stories, and I know most of the people who were there with him, so it was super cool.
Parvine: http://escapegameslondon.co.uk
AlexPolikowsky7: That sounds fun Sandra!
Sandra Dodd: ****There is some genetics.**** WRITE THAT IN GOLD ABOVE THE DOOR.
Sandra Dodd: As socially and as politically incorrect as it is to say so, there is some genetics (meaning "it is genetic") about all of these intelligences we're talking about.
AlexPolikowsky7: We are all about genetics in our farm 😜
Sandra Dodd: But genetics aren't so simple.
Sandra Dodd: There are throwbacks and combos.
AlexPolikowsky7: I think so. There is nurture and there is definitely NATURE! ( genetics)
Sandra Dodd: (Technical genetic terms, right? Throwbacks and combos? Mutants and duds?)
Marta Venturini:
Sandra Dodd: I think one reason unschooling is so hugely GLORIOUS is that we can't create intelligence. We can't create a talent.
Marta Venturini: Totally technical
AlexPolikowsky7: They are still early in their understanding of how that works. Many articles online but they are not completely correct ( the articles) ans there is much that is not known
Sandra Dodd: But we can, if unschooling is done well, nurture everything a child has and provide so many connections and experiences and opportunities that they are frolicking freely in their own abilities.
Sandra Dodd: And they can, if we're careful, grow up undamaged by negativity.
AlexPolikowsky7: I hope so. Brian and I are not perfect and we mess up.
Sandra Dodd: We can, if we're vigilant, protect them from nearly all of the joy-extinguishing noise and criticism around us, so that they aren't ashamed or embarrassed by what they know and can do.
Serah: we are not perfect either.
Sandra Dodd: We don't need to know what our children's talents and skills are.
Sandra Dodd: It's fun when pops up like "Tadaa!" and they do or know something really fun and impressive.
Sandra Dodd: But we don't need to know.
Sandra Dodd: We need to not screw them up or hold them down.
Marta Venturini: Yes
Serah: yes, agreed
Marta Venturini: That was one of the main reasons that led me to unschooling -- wanting Conchinha to grow up as undamaged as possible.
Sandra Dodd: Like watering a tree. Just water it. If you don't know how widely the roots are spread out, then water extra wide. If you don't know what kind of plant food it might need, give it more than one kind.
Serah: hmm... i like that anaolgy
Sandra Dodd: My hope in this series about intelligences is to list some examples of things that have value to each sort of intelligence that parents might possibly disregard or devalue.
Sandra Dodd: And from a greater distance than a close-up on each intelligence, from a mile or a year away from it, an even better answer is not to worry about which intelligence something reveals or encourages, but to provide and allow everything, as much as possible, as widely as possible, and not to scoff at or discourage any curiosity or interest a child has.
Sandra Dodd: Puzzles, puzzle rooms, video games, pattern games (Candy Crush or chess, any of them)—those are probably better than 12 years of math classes.
AlexPolikowsky7: Gaming has certainly been where Daniel started talking about physics! I think he has been talking about it since Mario Galaxy , the first game.
Sandra Dodd: From those, the kids will pick up enough that when they someday take a math class (if they do) everything will click into place, and they'll be learning a language for writing down lots of things they already understand deeply and fully, but they don't know the formal terminology.
Sandra Dodd: Where as probably 95% of those who went to school memorized a bunch of terminology and some formulas, and shudder to think of them, and don't know what they're for.
AlexPolikowsky7: And Daniel started talking about astrophysics after he went Aurora hunting with me las November and got to see the Aurora, not his first time but he does not remember the other time
Sandra Dodd: Maybe Daniel has already discovered this, but one fun physics geek thing that's been going on for 100 years or more (probably lots more) is speculation on how ancient Egyptians built pyramids.
Sandra Dodd: There are some really great theories. And Kurt Vonnegut took care of it in his book Slapstick by saying that just as the world goes through ice ages and warming, there are periods of light gravity or heavy gravity. And the pyramids were build during a period of light gravity.
Sandra Dodd: Heavy gravity came, and all the elevators in NYC fell down.
AlexPolikowsky7: He does have a love for Middle Ages and a bit of ancient history. I will mention the pita miss
AlexPolikowsky7: Pyramids
AlexPolikowsky7: Dang autocorrect!
Marta Venturini: Interesting, Sandra, I didn't know that! (the gravity periods theory)
Sandra Dodd: Vonnegut says (I think I recall) that Washington threw a silver dollar across the Potomac, but during light gravity he could throw a manhole cover.
Sandra Dodd: it's fiction, Marta. Don't think too hard. It's humor.
Marta Venturini: Oh!
Marta Venturini:
Sandra Dodd: One of the legit theories ws that it was flooded and the blocks were floated up on rafts, and more water put in, to get it higher for each course.
AlexPolikowsky7: There are not period of light or heavy bit gravity waves were a theory and they just actually had it proven!
Sandra Dodd: Then after it was built it was drained and the inside walls and such put in.
Sandra Dodd: All of the pyramid-building theories are wild, and physics. Even Vonnegut's light gravity, I guess!
Even Vonnegut's light gravity, I guess!
Marta Venturini: Interesting nevertheless
AlexPolikowsky7: they built something that could detect gravity waves and it finally was detected a few months ago.
Sandra Dodd: He will come across some wild and weird things if he starts looking for theories about pyramids.
Sandra Dodd: And Stonehenge—how did they lift up those rocks? It's fun to see what people have proposed.
Marta Venturini:
AlexPolikowsky7: And Easter Island ! Those big statues! I had a friend who's mother went there with her archeologist boyfriend every year to dig
Sandra Dodd: YES, Alex. I'm going to quote from Slapstick, by Kurt Vonnegut. He's talking about what he and his twin sister used to think when they were young (and were later proven right about)
Sandra Dodd:
"We began with the mystery of how ancient peoples had erected the pyramids of Egypt and Mexico, and the great heads of Easter Island, and the barbaric arches of Stonehenge, without modern power sources and tools. We concluded there must have been days of light gravity in olden times, when people could play tiddledy winks with huge chunks of stone. We supposed that it might even be abnormal on earth for gravity to be stable for long periods of time. We predicted that at any moment gravity might become as capricious as winds and heat and cold, as blizzards and rainstorms again."
AlexPolikowsky7: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moai
Sandra Dodd: If anyone has another story, tell it.
AlexPolikowsky7: Daniel was here and I asked about college classes and he said he wants to do math. We talked and he said from the beginning , I am thinking remedial math?
Serah: that's fine with me
Sandra Dodd: I hope Daniel does study physics and loves it.
AlexPolikowsky7: I hope he does what he loves.
Marta Venturini:
Sandra Dodd: They'll give him a placement test, Alex.
Sandra Dodd: All my kids took remedial math, but one of them... Marty? not sure anymore tested higher than the others. Maybe it was Holly. See how it doesn't matter?
AlexPolikowsky7: It does not.
Marta Venturini:
Marta Venturini: It really doesn't.
Sandra Dodd: I hope your new Kitchen is sweet, Alex, and brings you years of peace and niceness.
AlexPolikowsky7: Gigi got to school and never did ANYTHING and became Genious Gigi because of math
Marta Venturini: Yes! ^^^^ What Sandra said!
Sandra Dodd: Marty's applying to the university.
AlexPolikowsky7: Cool!
Sandra Dodd: To study economics. He loves and LOVES economics, but the community college only had three courses. He reads about it on the side, and thinks of the world through what he knows of it.
Sandra Dodd: I'm surprised a community college had three classes!
AlexPolikowsky7: Funny how Brian and Daniel are interested in the kitchen, not Gigi. They seem to have the same taste too.
Sandra Dodd: Because it's engineering at this stage?
Because it's engineering at this stage?
Marta Venturini: I've already started playing Flip Pix, Sandra! The kids version. Hehehehehe It sure is fun! Love it!
Hehehehehe It sure is fun! Love it!
. . . .
Sandra Dodd: [Devyn] wants to play Zoombinis, and didn't even know we were talking about it.
Serah: ok, thanks for chat. Have a great week everyone!
Sandra Dodd: Bye, all! Thanks for being here.
