http://www.pbs.org/parents/education/homeschooling/unschooling-101/
[PBS is the U.S. Public Broadcast Service—the educational television network. My name is on their site. Woohoo!
Who can Unschool?
(part of Amy Childs' great podcast series)
Useful Traits:
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Sandra Dodd: Does anyone have a question or problem we could help with while we're waiting for ten people
Sandra Dodd: ?
Amber: There's a local mom asking for research on unschooling - "what type of education sets children up to be confident, successful, well rounded adults" - she seems to want proof that unschooling does that . I have tried linking her to several things, including sandradodd.com/research
Amber: I pointed out to her that her list "confident, successful, well rounded" didn't include "happy"
Sylvia Woodman: I'd ask the local mom to provide proof that school does that!
Amber: I think I sorta did that too Sylvia :) This is part of what I wrote: "What was YOUR experience with school and learning like? Did you learn best when you were tested on something? Do you feel that school made you confident, successful, and well rounded, and that those results are true for everybody? Did you notice that you did not list "happy" among your goals for "what type of education sets children up to be confident, successful, well rounded adults"?
Sylvia Woodman: I've seen articles that unschoolers do fine in college.
Sandra Dodd: Nice, Amber. :-)
Amber: I linked her to the Peter Gray survey of unschoolers
Sandra Dodd: If she wants statistics, ask her to consider school's statistics.
Sandra Dodd: What percentage of school kids are confident successful and well rounded?
Amber: I pointed out that Sandra Dodd, Joyce Fetteroll, Pam Sorooshian, Pam Laricchia, all have grown unschoolers - and that those results are known :)
Sandra Dodd: There are hundreds of grown unschoolers. Probably thousands, counting those who only unschooled part of their school-years.
Robin B: I like to think of unschooling as learning, not education. When you remove the idea that most people have of "an education" I think you can see unschooling more clearly.
Sylvia Woodman: Here's one from Smithsonian magazine: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news...
Sandra Dodd: Remind her that school creates a large percentage of failures. It's the way school works.
Sarah Rae: school is also not good for confidence - good students or bad
Amber: Thank you Sylvia.
Sylvia Woodman: :)
Sandra Dodd: And her idea of "well rounded," whatever it is, probably isn't something schools guarantee or even aim toward, because schools only let SOME kids do sports and music, and only SOME do art.
Sandra Dodd: And she shouldn't think of just high school graduate, but also count those who didn't make it to the end of high school from dropping out, or suicide.
Sandra Dodd: I'm not sympathetic toward people who want me to do their research and thinking for them.
AlexP: People like that need a lot of deschooling or they cannot unschool well or really get it;
AlexP: They want to be spoon fed answers . They do not really know what learning is about and are not willing to learn They want the right answers
Sarah Rae: Many people seem to glorify peer-reviewed style research as though it solves problems. "Anecdotal evidence" doesn't count for them. To me, that's a frightening way of looking at the world.
Sylvia Woodman: So much more deschooling than they ever thought possible. That was so true for me!!!
AlexP: Peer review studies are great for somethings but they are not all encompassing or work for everything.
Sandra Dodd: The work I do on my website is sometimes kind of random. I'll come by a page looking for something else, and see that it needs a link repaired, or added, or something. Yesterday that happened. It was an interview from a page that started off just info about home schooling. Then the owner started advertising herself as a onsultant or coach. Coach.
Sandra Dodd: At that point it gets very iffy for me. People will come to her site to read what I wrote, and then see her ads.
Sandra Dodd: But there are several of those out there, and I care just a little bit.
Sandra Dodd: And I had (luckily) put the whole thing on my site too, in case hers disappeared, which it did, in 2012.
AlexP: And people don't know how to interpret and dont really read the studies. THey just go by what someone wrote about the study, It may not even be what the study concluded or was looking at
Sandra Dodd: I know that because I found a WayBack machine copy.
Sandra Dodd: they are not all abrangent ? Is that portuguese?
Sandra Dodd: So...
Sarah Rae: It is difficult to have productive discussions with people who can only accept something if it is peer-reviewed research, though.
Amber: I've done that a few times, Sandra, found old links that didn't work and then looked them up on Wayback
Sandra Dodd: Anyway... my point was going to be that she wrote back and asked what my views were on food, after it had been limited.
Sandra Dodd: She wanted me to write her an article, for her, to put on her site. I gave her a link to my section on food and eating.
Sandra Dodd: This wasn't someone who was participating at Always Learning.
Sylvia Woodman: That's kind of nervy.
Amber: I did also suggest this mom just try it. Try unschooling, and if it didn't work, then switch. Or try her other option, and if she didn't like that, then try unschooling.
Sandra Dodd: So some people, I know, want to have their information delivered, simply, briefly, and then be done with it. Like ordering unschooling from Amazon. UPS brings a box. Done. You own it.
Sarah Rae: Maybe that's a result of how schools "deliver" information?
Amber: Yes she was asking for ONE book - and just one, because she has two littles, and I suppose is short on time. I told her it has taken me a while and I'm still reading and learning. I also suggested John Holt's How Children Fail
Sandra Dodd: Amber, I wouldn't even defend it. You gave her links. Tell her she's responsible for what she decides—for school or not, for which method. Nobody else can decide that for her. If she wants it decided for her, then it's government-funded school. Done.
Sandra Dodd: Or she could let the wealthiest grandparents decide.
Sandra Dodd: :-)
Robin B: Pam Laricchia's "Free to Learn" would be a better one, I think, Amber.
Sandra Dodd: The answer to ONE book is ... right. What Robin said.
Amber: I'd listed that too - not sure it's research-y enough for her?
Amber: I'd listed that earlier though - when she wanted resources on where to start
Amber: then she came back asking for ONE that's "very researched based" [sic]
Sandra Dodd: People have come, in the past (males, or women saying "My husband wants...") and asked ME specifically to provide them with research showing that unschooling does NOT work. They call that "balance."
Sandra Dodd: I just say there isn't any.
Amber: Anyway. Maybe she's not the right person to be unschooling? Shall we let this flow into today's topic?
Sarah Rae: maybe she isn't ready for it right now?
Sandra Dodd: Amber, you gave her good resources. Don't feel that you're required to report or defend.
Amber: (I don't want to take up more bandwidth now that we have >10)
Sylvia Woodman: Yes. I never recommend Joh Holt to anyone. I'd much rather them read the writings of women who have actually unschooled children.
Sandra Dodd: We're already in the topic, right? Some people can't understand that it's not a packaged curriculum.
Sandra Dodd: I used to read John Holt a lot!
Megan Valnes: Some people have trouble taking action.
Megan Valnes: They read and research all day and have trouble applying what they've learned...the waiting period.
Sylvia Woodman: Yes but that was because you didn't have Sandra Dodd to read. Much better!
Sukayna: or have early childhood ed backgrounds
Sukayna: piaget= play is the work of children
Amber: I was thinking - and wondering - would anyone who believes they had a GREAT childhood, and that school was GREAT for them - would they be able to unschool?
Sukayna: makes a compelling argument for unschooling later
Sandra Dodd: John Holt never studied education, he kept his own educational history secret, but recently someone published information (which has been pulled from wikipedia, but it's in a book, apparently) that he went to the most expensive boarding school in Switzerland, and later to an all-boys exclusive private school in New England somewhere.
AlexP: YEs Amber. I had a pretty good childhood and loved school and did great.
Sandra Dodd: So no wonder he kept that secret! :-)
Sandra Dodd: AND perhaps, no wonder he recommended kids stay home with parents, if he missed out on enough parent time.
Megan Valnes: I know for myself, reading about unschooling for one year before actually *doing* it did not really prepare me for what we were getting into.
Megan Valnes: I always liked school too.
AlexP: I am not unschooling my kids as a reaction to my experience in school but because it is a better choice.
Sylvia Woodman: I think they could if they could recognize that school, while great for them personally, is not going to be the best fit for EVERY child. Also schools are VERY different now than they were when I was a child growing up in the 1970s.
Sandra Dodd: But it's been years since I've told others they need to read that.
Sandra Dodd: John Holt leaves off after kids early double digits, pretty much. He never had children and he died before Kirby was born. Kirby turns 30 this year.
Amber: What about - parents who had very controlling parents, and who believe that that control was/is good for them? and therefore want to parent the same way with their own kids?
Robin B: Same as Alex, for me. I looked at my particular kid and knew that school would be a really bad place for her. Unschooling was the better choice.
Sandra Dodd: We've taken his ideas and used them in big, solid ways, and expanded them into what enriches personal lives, and solidifies marriages.
Sandra Dodd: He wasn't thinking about any of that.
Sandra Dodd: -=-would anyone who believes they had a GREAT childhood, and that school was GREAT for them - would they be able to unschool?-=-
Sandra Dodd: School was great for me, and outside my mom's sometimes unpredictable behavior which got worse over years, I had a fun childhood.
AlexP: pretty much Robin. School would not have been good for my son but my daughter is a lot like me and she would have done okay.
Sandra Dodd: Too much reactionary decisionmaking can be harmful. People can go too far.
Megan Valnes: We began unschooling for my oldest child, who should have NEVER been in school.
Sandra Dodd: We have several new people. I want to say a couple of things about the room.
Sandra Dodd: 1) reminder that we keep the chat transcripts
Robin B: If she would have been happy in a school setting, I would have considered it. We reviewed each year, really.
AlexP: She actually tired school last year for 3 months and liked it and did awesome but came home because home is better in the endl Home is NOT always better for other kids and school maybe their best option
Sandra Dodd: 2) if you can't read because it's moving around, click "Save/Print on the side
Sandra Dodd: read and then come back and catch up.
Megan Valnes: I think my 2nd and 3rd would have done well in school and been happy, but not my 4th. She's a lot like her older brother and I'm sp happy she never has to go to shcool, unless it's on her own terms.
Sandra Dodd: 3)....
Sandra Dodd: when you want to leave, write just these four keystrokes in the box. /bye
Sandra Dodd: If that's ALL that's in the box, then you leave the room and we see
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AlexP: You can also click REVIEW MODE to read
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Sandra Dodd: If anyone wants to "fire drill" and leave and come back... I meant to do that earlier.
Sandra Dodd: It can be helpful for us to see who's in.
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Sandra Dodd: (Now I hope they all come back! :-) )
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Sukayna: here!
Marta Venturini: :)
Amber: :)
Sandra Dodd: Ah, good. :-)
heathermbooth: That was funny.
Megan Valnes: Mass exodus
AlexP: Home needs to be safe, peaceful, interesting and parents need to be available , interesting, interested, supportive and conected
Sandra Dodd: Instead of telling why we're unschooling, let's talk about who can unschool. It's okay if it includes who can't. There is an edge, a tipping point, in most people's lives.
Sandra Dodd: And there is some bad advice in the world.
Sandra Dodd: Some people say "anyone can unschool" and "You have the right to unschool."
Sylvia Woodman: I think it helps if you are curious and optimistic about the world.
AlexP: If not unschooling may not be as rich and full
Sandra Dodd: It's not even the sort of irritating "support" we complaing about. it's just pushiness and guilt-inducing.
Megan Valnes: If you are a person that cannot let go of old ideas, I don't think you can unschool.
Sandra Dodd: And it's as false as false can be.
Lisa Celedon: <> I have a question, and this is also about who can unschool, and relates to topics that have come up on the fb group
Sandra Dodd: NOT anyone can unschool.
Sandra Dodd: NOBODY has "the right" to do much of anything, honestly.
Megan Valnes: Unschoolers need to be open and interested.
Sylvia Woodman: I think it's helpful if you are willing to try new things, go new places, taste new foods etc.
AlexP: Agree with Slvia. Curious and optmistic ! but even more than that
Sandra Dodd: And certainly one parent does not have the right to make a unilateral decision if the other biological parent is around.
Megan Valnes: If even a little at first, maybe one can grow as an unschooler during unschooling, but one requires the room to grow.
Sukayna: or have early childhood ed backgrounds
Sylvia Woodman: I think it's helpful to have a good sense of humor and a good sense of fun.
Megan Valnes: Agreed Sandra! If it's an argument between parents, keep the peace.
Sukayna: SORRY
Sandra Dodd: And if they're married, still, and if she attempts to make a unilateral decision that could cost her the marriage... SO much worse than supporting the children happily to enjoy or endure school.
AlexP: What question Lisa?
Megan Valnes: I agree that humor is huge! Laughter is vital.
Lisa Celedon: I was thinking about how to ask it that doesn't completely make it about me, but I'm having trouble with that.
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Sylvia Woodman: I always think of the line from Auntie Mame: Life is a banquet!
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Sandra Dodd: A good life is. :-)
Robin B: I think that if you are regularly in "the vortex of suckitude" (as Jenny Cyphers terms it), it will be hard to unschool well.
Megan Valnes: :)
Sandra Dodd: So. Agreement of involved parties.
Sandra Dodd: Even kids?
Megan Valnes: ALso, if you're a miserabe.
Megan Valnes: That's what we call downers :)
Sandra Dodd: Some people have written in public, even if they don't have kids "My child will never see the inside of a school."
Sandra Dodd: That's a bit controlling, of the potentially-born. :-)
Megan Valnes: And not very unschooly!
Megan Valnes: People always say to me "so, will you have them go to high school?"
Megan Valnes: My response: "If they choose to!"
Sylvia Woodman: Me too. Very common question.
Sandra Dodd: I don't know that they even know what uschooling is when they swear to prevent the child from going to school.
Lisa Celedon: I want to ask again about depression, even though the topic has been covered a lot lately.
Sandra Dodd: It's political bravado
Sandra Dodd: No, Lisa.
Sandra Dodd: Let's don't.
Sylvia Woodman: I guess I don't come across as smart enough :)
Megan Valnes: I think even kids that seem sad or not as sparkly can still be unschooled if they want the chance at it.
Sandra Dodd: Yes, Megan. Not all kids are three-ring-circus material.
Megan Valnes: My oldest son had a lot of trouble "embracing joy" when we first began, two years ago.
Lisa Celedon: Let's don't what?
Megan Valnes: He is now so much fun and I've seen him smile more in the past 6 months than I had seen in about 9 years!
Sylvia Woodman: Let's not talk about depression.
Sandra Dodd: But with time and patience, IF they want to be home, it can be calmer and less pressuring than school.
Sandra Dodd: Let's don't discuss depression.
Robin B: Was that a requirement, Megan? That he "embrace joy?"
Megan Valnes: No
Sukayna: if he had been in school that sort of negativity is cool
Megan Valnes: I never said anything to him
Sukayna: meaning it makes you smart and edgy
Sandra Dodd: It's not a requirement, Robin, but we recommend it pretty regularly.
AlexP: Parents that want to get away from their kids all the time ( i have seen many) would not do well unschooling. Or if your child is not your priority. if molding your child to a vision you have of how she/he should be is what a parent wants , unschooling is definitely not for this parent.
Megan Valnes: I let him be...it was very difficult for me sometimes, but my husband and I backed off from pestering him over anything, especially his mood!
Sukayna: its the way to be- all angsty and dissatisfied
Megan Valnes: Yes, Sukayna
Sandra Dodd: True, Sukayna. Sometimes a kid in school who's not happy will adopt a persona of dull boredom, to avoid eye contact and seem cool.
Sylvia Woodman: I like that Alex!
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Sukayna: we had this- deschooling can be lengthy
Megan Valnes: and his personality already lends him to some deep pondering that could be interpreted as moodiness.
Sandra Dodd: All those things, Alex, are things that schools encourage d society can encourage, right? Don't worry, your child is happy at school, he doesn't miss you, do things for yourself, go to the spa, have lunch with the ladies...
Megan Valnes: So, my son did not start out very sparkly, but he is sparkly now!
Sukayna: Yes- Happy to report smiles and happiness alot more than the old moodiness
Robin B: I was thinking we recommend embracing joy for the parents first. Like putting on your oxygen mask first, then helping someone else.
Sylvia Woodman: ==-==if your child is not your priority.==-== This is particularly important. I see this all the time. Parents who think unschooling is some kind of social club.
Sukayna: gratitude for being in charge of her own life, time, etc
Sandra Dodd: You're right, Robin.
Sandra Dodd: I understand your question better.
Robin B: :-)
Sandra Dodd: Social club for the parents, while the kids play elsewhere, Sylvia?
Sandra Dodd: I've seen that in some people, too.
Sukayna: I love that the relationships are our scale of better, great, or not so much
Megan Valnes: Embracing joy for the parents first is so very important, Robin.
AlexP: YES Sylvia! THe cool parents. But the kids are not the priority unfortunately.
Megan Valnes: Because we are modeling.
Sandra Dodd: It doesn't keep them from unschooling, though.
Sukayna: I would hate to try to please everyone, but I love pleasing my family :">
Megan Valnes: Me too!
Sandra Dodd: If both parents think unschooling is AWESOME, and it's healing some part of them to have their kids home, that might still be good for the kids.
Sandra Dodd: So I don't think it prohibits/precludes unschooling.
Sandra Dodd: If a parent isn't naturally curious, "fake it til you make it" might be in order.
Megan Valnes: When I first began unschooling, I really admired the moms at park day who would go play with their kids as opposed to ignoring their kids and chatting with the other parents
Sukayna: same with playing..I was a serious child and still have trouble being playful
Sukayna: my husband is almost always playful
AlexP: if a parent cannot deschool and cannot see real learning , only seeing learning as in school learning, it is a big block for them to be able to unschool.
Sandra Dodd: And some people aren't. But because it's important for unschooling to mix up ideas and to be accepting of surprises and newness, someone who is staid and bored and boring might benefit from gradually pretending interest, until it comes true.
Lisa Celedon: Me too, Megan
Megan Valnes: I became friends with those moms and did "fake it" till...I made it...maybe? ;-)
Sandra Dodd: This is good for unschoolers to know. "Openness to Experience" is a heritable trait. Some people are born with LOTS of it. Some with less.
Sandra Dodd: This is good for unschoolers to know. "Openness to Experience" is a heritable trait. Some people are born with LOTS of it. Some with less.
Sandra Dodd: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openness_t...
Sukayna: at least then you are making an effort...
Sandra Dodd: If two parents had little, and they have a child with little of it, they shouldn't blame the child. :-)
Megan Valnes: Sukayna, maybe you're more serious (some people just are), but are you loving and patient, open to new things? All those things matter immensely too.
Sandra Dodd: And if that family unschools, it might be listless looking from outside their family, but it also might work out okay, in their own way.
Sukayna: definintely but i had to learn how to play as a mom...which is a bit odd
Megan Valnes: Right, again, back to my oldest! He is my guiding light :).
Robin B: I confess that I was that parent early on. I was so desperate for adult contact (my husband was travelling *a lot* at the time). But I realized my daughter was often unhappy - we did a lot fewer group events after that. Easier one-on-one for her and for me because I could more easily focus on her wellbeing and mine.
Sukayna: buthe fake it til you make it idea
Lisa Celedon: I usually play with the kids, mine and other peeople's, at park days. My kids are little and want me to play with them, and other kids are usually delighted to have an adult's attention. It is better for me too, to be playful and attentive, rather than listening to gossip or complaining and negativity
Megan Valnes: He is not so open to new experiences.
Megan Valnes: Yes, Lisa!
Sandra Dodd: "Misery loves company" is an old saying that seems quite true. And misery can create company.
Megan Valnes: I escape many unwanted convos by going to play with the kids :)
Marta Venturini: That happens to me too, Lisa. Not always, but sometimes the moms are too negative and gossipy.
Sandra Dodd: So the reason I don't want to discuss depression here in this chat is that the things being written are "be happy, be playful, be curious!"
Sukayna: I was too protective of my sensitive child to be away from her at the park
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Megan Valnes: I'm surrounded by a lot of "eclectics" or Waldorf-inspired unschoolers, not so many radicals, so when they start ranting about tachnology, organic food, or proper exercise, I bail out.
Sandra Dodd: In an uplifting swirl of positive suggestions, every time depression is mentioned, we go back to zero and need to build up the joyful froth again.
Sandra Dodd: If someone wants to step away from a life of serious Catholicism, mass every day, parochial school, Catholic high school, Catholic university...
Sukayna: yes- about the depression
Sandra Dodd: It will NOT help for her to discuss Catholicism every day.
Sukayna: safe zone
Lisa Celedon: I was hurt for a moment, but knew you probably had a really good reason for it, and was willing to wait and read and see. And I got it. ;)
Marta Venturini: And I love playing with the kids now. It's so much fun! I usually goof around and laugh quite a bit with them, which feels so good.
Lisa Celedon: I came here today precisely because this is what I need right now: "an uplifting swirl of positive suggestions"
Megan Valnes: Watching funny videos is a great way to have fun and be silly with kids.
Sandra Dodd: If someone steps away from school after bieng in school for 12 or 13, 17, 20 years, and then teaching, and then having kids in school (or any combo within those), it will NOT help to discuss school every day, to read local bond issues or school politics or school shootings or what's for school lunch. :-)
Robin B: Turn towards happier, better, uplifting things. It can be too easy to enter "THE VORTEX" :-)
Megan Valnes: Or doing one of the new dance crazes with them...whip nay nay anyone?
Sandra Dodd: Step Away from what is sucking you down.
Megan Valnes: Thank you, Sandra.
Sandra Dodd: Naming it is not only proving you're thinking of it, but it makes others think of it too.
Sandra Dodd: That's why.
Megan Valnes: Save that quote---Add Light and Stir
Lisa Celedon: Yes Marta! I have one group of moms that gets very negative, the other one I have to drive quite a ways, but they are a lot less negative, and more willing to go positive when someone makes a move that direction. And they don't take offense when a parent is with the kids rather than the grown ups.
Sandra Dodd: This would be hard, Megan: "I'm surrounded by a lot of "eclectics" or Waldorf-inspired unschoolers, not so many radicals, so when they start ranting about tachnology, organic food, or proper exercise, I bail out."
Lisa Celedon: Josh loves the nay nay song. I'll find the video and put it on for him when the sitter leaves
Sandra Dodd: I used to say "It's not a problem for us, with unschooling" or "unschoolers don't have that problem."
Megan Valnes: We've stopped our local park day because of that.
Sandra Dodd: Some people would get really pissed off, but others would just think. Maybe it wasn't a universal or inevitable problem, whatever it was they thought was in danger of ruining their children's lives.
Lisa Celedon: Megan: ""I'm surrounded by a lot of "eclectics" or Waldorf-inspired unschoolers, not so many radicals, so when they start ranting about tachnology, organic food, " -- this is my local experience too, in sonoma county
Sandra Dodd: Playing a guitar instead of a recorder. :-)
Sukayna: nice sandra ;)
Sandra Dodd: Collecting Star Wars figures rather than gnomes or fairies.
Sukayna: eating wheat
Sandra Dodd: Owning peanuts
Megan Valnes: When Five Nights at Freddies was a really big game, my kids loved it! But, when they would want to talk about it at park day, some of the mother's would hurry and shuffle their kids away from mine, explaining that they got
Megan Valnes: "scared easily"
Lisa Celedon: "Step Away from what is sucking you down." -- I think that's exactly what I needed.
Sylvia Woodman: or Nerf guns!
Sukayna: it helps alot lisa
Megan Valnes: and nightmares, even though their kids were the ones asking to see the game!
Megan Valnes: Oh, Nerf Guns
Sukayna: I have had lots of practice
Sandra Dodd: So violent, those foam darts. The cause of all strife on earth
Sandra Dodd: So.
Sandra Dodd: Happy hopefulness helps.
Sandra Dodd: Creativity or curiosity.
Marta Venturini: :)
Sukayna: getting out
Sukayna: en for a few minutes
Sandra Dodd: Aptitude and ability. (I'm going with matching initial letters)
Sukayna: even for a few...
Sandra Dodd: Deschooling. If people don't think they need it, they stay stuck.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe that means "willingness to learn and change"
Sylvia Woodman: Sukayna that helps us! Even just a walk around the block changes the energy in the house for us. If we can go out to lunch or run some errands so much the better.
Megan Valnes: Yes, I think so
Sukayna: yes!
Sukayna: even ten minutes can switch it all up
Sukayna: costs nothing
Lisa Celedon: Yes one kid at our parkday was really afraid of zombies, and his mom (who organized the park day) didn't let anyone talk about them. Josh was really into minecraft and plants vs zombies, and if I stayed with him, I could help steer away from those and into other things so not to upset the family who was hosting.
Sukayna: easy
Sukayna: easy
Serah: Yes, thatès exactly it... Deschooling does mean willingness to learn and change
Sandra Dodd: I get frustrated with Devyn easily because it's been so long since there was a kid her age around, and she's quick to be critical, or mocks me. And I react sharply.
Megan Valnes: In order to deschool, you have to recognize that something isn't right in what you've learned or how you've behaved
Sandra Dodd: But going outside makes us both happy
Sylvia Woodman: Devyn mocks you?
Amber: "recognize that something isn't right in what you've learned or how you've behaved
Amber: oops sorry
Sukayna: I take the ones who want to go
Megan Valnes: Amber, I was going to circle back to you actually
Sandra Dodd: That's not an unschooling topic, because she's a school kid, but even though I got good at accepting and interacting with my own children, over many years, it doesn't directly transfer. :-)
Amber: "recognize that something isn't right in what you've learned or how you've behaved" - that's what I was getting at earlier when I asked about parents who think their childhood or their parents' parenting was fine
Sukayna: sometimes we have a snack on the terrace together, watch the horses
Megan Valnes: Because you had asked, What about - parents who had very controlling parents, and who believe that that control was/is good for them? and therefore want to parent the same way with their own kids?
Megan Valnes: My father was EXTREMELY controlling
Megan Valnes: i wasn't allowed to eat popsicles because of the mess, okay. That's to give you an idea.
Sandra Dodd: Either parents do what their parents did without thinking, or some decide to do every single thing the opposite way (another form of not thinking)
Megan Valnes: I started out as a mom thinking that parents were not suppoesed to be their kids friends
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Lisa Celedon: Josh is like that too, quick to be mocking and critical. I have never been mocking of him, but I have been way too critical of him, I didn't realize I was being so critical of him until I heard it coming back from him.
Amber: I'm not talking about myself but I do have friends where the mom is interested in things I talk about, but the dad is so not on board, and of course I'm not going to break up their marriage by pressuring her or anything, but I thought well, that's an example of someone who cannot unschool
Sylvia Woodman: You couldn't eat them outside?
Sandra Dodd: If they want to just do what their parents did, then their kids will be in school, right?
Amber: and it's because the dad was very controlled and seems to want to be the same way
Sukayna: sometimes it is the dad thinking its his job to be the controller
Megan Valnes: I realized (not until my son was 8!) that my beliefs were not working!
Sukayna: but he really doesnt want to put in much effort
Sandra Dodd: There are lots of families like that, and men are less likely to have high interpersonal intelligence than women are. Or less practice, even if they have the potential.
Megan Valnes: And that I had to change my beliefs and thought patterns, which is tremendous effort.
Sarah Rae: parents who had controlling parents themselves and want to parent the same way CAN unschool, but only if they change that desire to repeat what was done to them.
Parvine: Questioning my own thinking has been of great value to help me move forward.
Jill Parmer: Parents who believe their childhood was fine and their parents' parenting was fine, wouldn't need to consider anything different and probably wouldn't come across unschooling.
Sandra Dodd: So a dad who wants to just do what he thinks his parents did is socially justified and supported in that, and the mom can't go TOO far from the baseline without risking loss of custody and court-ordered school.
Amber: but I think he's proud of who he is and his success in life so he figures "well, this control worked for me" - he sees nothing wrong
Sukayna: exactly SR
Sandra Dodd: Jill, Pam Sorooshian was that way.
Megan Valnes: But like has been said before, if a parent is willing to look at the child and not their idea of the child, things can change.
Sandra Dodd: But she didn't like the way the kids at school were behaving toward Roya.
Sandra Dodd: So she saw changes happening and coming, because she was paying so much attention.
Amber: So if everything was fine for themselves, but then they looked at their children and school is NOT working out for their children, then it would be super helpful for the parents to be able to see that
Megan Valnes: Yes, Amber
Megan Valnes: the parents have to be able to see the child, not just their own experience as a child.
Sandra Dodd: We're the weirdos,though. If a dad did what his parents said and now is financially and socially successful, and doesn't want to rock that boat, he has thousands of years of history on his side
Megan Valnes: But the deschooling might get a little rough...
Sandra Dodd: We got what.... some dusty John Holt books? :-)
Marta Venturini: :)
Lisa Celedon: Yes! My husband has said he feels like a bad dad when he isn;t in control of his kids. We've talked a little about it. I didn't know what to say except that being willing to learn to help the kids rather than control them is a HUGE gift. it helps too that my husband doesn't believe that the way he was raised was great, and wants to do things differently, and believes that unschooling is a good idea.
Sukayna: Yes, it is hard to change without something negative as a stimulus
Sandra Dodd: Lisa, go with "influential.
Sandra Dodd: It's not just no-control / control
Sukayna: i always wanted to homeschool
Sandra Dodd: Behaving as a team, working as a unit—a new model for it.
Jill Parmer: What caught Pam's attention to unschool?
Megan Valnes: If whatever is happening to the child is a negative though...
Megan Valnes: If whatever is happening to the child is a negative though...
Sandra Dodd: "Our family will bring the drinks," and so the dad carries the heavy stuff and the kid carries the cups
Amber: Jill, Sandra said "she didn't like the way the kids at school were behaving toward Roya."
Jill Parmer: I think something would need to change, something would need to trigger and idea that parenting and schooling needs soemthing different?
Sandra Dodd: "Our family will stay and help clean up," and maybe the kids aren't helping much, but they know they're staying for clean up, and as they get older they'll want to be more with and like the parents.
Sandra Dodd: Telling the kids to supply drinks or clean up while the parents sit in the shade, that's what did NOT work all through most of the 20th century
Megan Valnes: Sylvia, I just saw your question. Popsicles outside as long as there was a paper plate that my dad could fit the stick thru, so the drippings would fall on the plate :)
Sandra Dodd: Bossing kids around, making them to things parents didn't want to do
Sylvia Woodman: Oh wow. That's extreme.
Megan Valnes: We laugh about it now, but yes, it was!
Megan Valnes: We joke that he should have just wrapped me in seran wrap
Amber: Having unrealistic expectations of kids - that seems to be an important aspect
Amber: Like that they won't be messy when young
Megan Valnes: right
Sukayna: or cost money
Sukayna: or have opinions
Amber: Though I wonder sometimes if there's a resource for knowing what expectations ARE realistic? or if it merely comes from individual observations
Megan Valnes: my dad admires how I am the oppostie of him with my kids
Sandra Dodd: I've seen some families that only let a child have a popsicle in the bathtub. NOt with the warm bathwater there, but in there and then they could wipe him off, or run a bath, or whatever.
Amber: oh my goodness it is popsicle city here, all day every day
Megan Valnes: He says he wishes could be more like that and the older he gets, the more relaxed he becomes.
Sandra Dodd: Megan, Ren Allen's dad wrote her something beautiful once about how proud he was that she was treating her children differently
Sandra Dodd: -=-Though I wonder sometimes if there's a resource for knowing what expectations ARE realistic? or if it merely comes from individual observations-=-
Sandra Dodd: -=-Though I wonder sometimes if there's a resource for knowing what expectations ARE realistic? or if it merely comes from individual observations-=-
Megan Valnes: It is really sweet to hear from my dad, Sandra. He's a good man, just had his hangups.
Amber: Sorry. That's only a mild exaggeration, but it is an exaggeration.
Sandra Dodd: Child development writings. Erickson
Sandra Dodd: Piaget (some don't like Piaget's stuff because he was mostly observing his own children and not lots of kids)
Marta Venturini: I remember that letter, Sandra. So beautiful. Didn't she read it out loud in one of your audio files? (from a conference, probably)
Megan Valnes: Ok, I have to leave. I'm so sad, but things to do. Thank you all!
Sandra Dodd: What's her na from the UK Penelope somebody
Sukayna: industry vs inferiority
Megan Valnes left the chat 4 hours ago
Sandra Dodd: name
Robin B: Penelope Leach?
Amber: Ah, thank you Sandra.
Sandra Dodd: Reading about what children are able to physically or mentally or emotionall understand or do at different stages is very useful for any parents, but for unschoolers.
Sukayna: yes
Sandra Dodd: Probably, Robin. Thanks.
Sukayna: sounds right
Marta Venturini: http://sandradodd.com/rentalk
Sandra Dodd: Expecting a child to do what he can't is a problem every time.
Sandra Dodd: Thinking a five year old can read just because a few can.
Marta Venturini: I think it's there. If it isn't, it's still a wonderful page to visit or revisit. :)
Sandra Dodd: Some can learn to ride a bike at four. Some not until twelve.
Sandra Dodd: So being realistic, not pressuring a young child—that's a good starting place.
Sandra Dodd: But the ideal unschooling spot is to KNOW those things, and then forget about them again.
Jill Parmer: Re: Pam (happy childhood, happy parenting) - I think the ability to see anothers' perspective to be able to unschool.
AlexP: So many parents are in a hurry! They want their kids to master things early.
Sandra Dodd: If an unschooler can learn not to expect the impossible, the next plateau might be to stop expecting the statistical probable. :-)
Sukayna: just observe what IS
AlexP: If they dont learn a second language now or to read by 5 or to.... it is a competition too.
Sandra Dodd: Competition is worse now than it was when I was a kid (so long ago—I'm getting old enough for senior discounts in some places)
Sandra Dodd: I think it's worse in some places than others. Delaware, NYC.
Sandra Dodd: London.
Sandra Dodd: Japan, China. China has the leftovers from Confucian government testing, still. They've had that sort of testing/sorting for a long LONG time.
Sukayna: rejecting a pre packaged life
heathermbooth: Gotta go. Thanks for the chat.
Sukayna: the pressure is about schools-college-jobs-money-status
heathermbooth left the chat 4 hours ago
Lisa Celedon: I used to work at a private corporate preschool near silicon valley, and the competition was bad.
Sandra Dodd: So to unschool, a family should be able to abandon that competitive path.
Sandra Dodd: And for some, they don't know how to.
Sandra Dodd: And for many, the grandparents are asking question.
Sukayna: yes- or at least turn a blind eye, i think
Sandra Dodd: Keith's mom asked me at dinner in front of Kirby, whether I was going to have him tested.
Sandra Dodd: I said no.
Sukayna: so the parents have to be a bit brave
Sandra Dodd: She asked how I would know whether he was behind.
Sukayna: solidly convinced and confident
AlexP: Grandparents want bragginf rights. Give it to them.
Sandra Dodd: I said I know he's behind in some thing, and he's ahead in others. And I put food in my mouth in a meaningful way.
Sandra Dodd: So we learned to do that, what Alex is saying.
AlexP: If you are paying good attention to your child there must be something you can trasnlate to the grandparents so they can brag about.
Sandra Dodd: We made sure there were photos of cool stuff they had done, letters about great things they had said.
Sandra Dodd: When Marty skated early and well and played ice hockey—photos to the grandparents.
Sandra Dodd: When Kirby got more and more karate belts...
Sandra Dodd: When Holly was in plays.
Sylvia Woodman: Right! Grandparents don't have to brag just about school stuff! My MIL can brag about the wonderful things that Gabriella creates and Harry's black belt and the fish he caught last summer on the canoe trip!
Sukayna: but what about when the grandparents dont care
Sandra Dodd: The solid conviction and confidence come gradually, I think.
Sandra Dodd: Bonus, Sukayna.
Sukayna: when they are genuinely disinterested
Sandra Dodd: Send them nice things anyway, if you want, but it takes pressure off
Sukayna: in the kids
Sandra Dodd: Let it go
AlexP: and not too much information, Dont go complaining or whining that your child is up allnight or that she oly ate french fries for dinner.
Sukayna: when adult world is all that matters....
Sylvia Woodman: And I'm making more of an effort of taking pictures of her and the grand children together doing things/going places.
AlexP: many people talk too much and complain too much.
Sandra Dodd: If grandparents aren't trying to prevent unschooling, then they're probably not a problem.
Sukayna: I did but the girls are still a taad resentful of no doting grandma
Amber: Oh Alex so true - don't complain. I knew that was true about my husband, that I didn't want to complain to my mom about him - I forgot (at first) to extend that to my child.
Sandra Dodd: If the grandparents are millionaires... that's different.
AlexP: If you are positive about your children and can talk about them with pride that goes a long way.
Sandra Dodd: I would compromise my principles for enough money (if my children would be kept from inheriting by my crazy ideas about learning at home)
Sukayna: they are against it- I am ruining things
Robin B: That's not disinterest, though.
Sandra Dodd: Could be worse, than no grandma present. Could be a spiteful grandma DOING something.
Sukayna: but the harsh negative disinterested stuff predates all that
Sandra Dodd: Send them Pam Laricchia's books, if you think it might soften their hearts and souls.
Sukayna: yes but she is hurtful
Sukayna: grandma is illiterate :0
Sandra Dodd: Are we forgetting large parts of what unschoolers need to have or be for unschooling to work?
Sandra Dodd: Brave.
Sandra Dodd: interested and interesting
Robin B: Confidence
AlexP: optmistm and openness
Sarah Rae: open to change
Sandra Dodd: I think when someone in negative it will destroy unschooling—THIS kind of negativity: "That's stupid." or **sigh**"I GUESS it's okay."
Amber: back to alliterating :)
Jill Parmer: Helpfulness
AlexP: positive
Lisa Celedon: Kaiden is next to me holding a video game controller, pushing the buttons saying "eigh... fow... seben... nye... ten!" it's adorable. If I were still a preschool teacher I'd be worried that the numbers weren't in the right order and that he can't enunciate them yet, but now I see growth and feel at ease with his pace and can hear how very sweet and cool it is that he just did that. :)
Sandra Dodd: That behavior some Jr. High School girls put on, some people keep into adulthood.
Sandra Dodd: Mostly women
Sandra Dodd: Lisa, it's cool that they're toys to him, those words, and ideas.
Jill Parmer: Willing to research stuff...cool ideas, places to go, things your kids are interested in.
Lisa Celedon: Yes!
Robin B: :-)
Jill Parmer: Creating fun.
Sandra Dodd: And you're not a Waldorf mom who would slap the video game controller out of his hand to save his fantasy-Black-Forest soul
Jill Parmer: Awareness of needs, family members' dispositions.
Amber: sweet and sparkly
Sandra Dodd: Good, Amber.
AlexP: Yes Jill. Helping my son with a few new cosplay and found someone to make them and I made what I could. He is pretty happy I am researching for him.
Sandra Dodd: Frolicking in Fun
Lisa Celedon: I am trying to think of a word, Capable, maybe?
Jill Parmer: Ability to see kids' point of view.
Sarah Rae: accepting a child as s/he is
Amber: gentle and generous
Robin B: Kind
Sandra Dodd: You need another K word, Robin.
Sylvia Woodman: fantasy-Black-Forest soul - that would be a great name for a band!!!
Sandra Dodd: Knightly? Kindle-owning? Kinetical?
Robin B: I know. Oh, there's one! Knowledge.
Sarah Rae: so...accepting and aware
Serah: willingness to step outside of ones comfort zone
Lisa Celedon: I know a parent who is unschooling but believes in so many of her own limitations, about why she can't do more than she's doing.
Sandra Dodd: :-)
Amber: kind and keen? (at observing)
Sandra Dodd: And who doesn't want to grow, Lisa?
Sandra Dodd: She should read lots at Pam Laricchia's site.
Sylvia Woodman: Someone who is sweet and not sharp. (That is something I have to work at myself)
Sarah Rae: growth-oreinted and gentle
Sandra Dodd: Brit-use of "keen" is perfect for it. Sharply interested. Eager.
Sandra Dodd: Sharp how, Sylvia?
AlexP: This is important: If your child is more important than your vision of your child, life becomes easier. " Sandra Dodd
Amber: would you say humility has a place? I was thinking humble and hilarious
Sandra Dodd: Sharp-quick is good.
Serah: resourceful
Robin B: My mantra, Alex.
Sylvia Woodman: Sharp tongued.
Sandra Dodd: I think humility is one of the most important things of all. I nearly wrote something and linked to it yesterday, in the facebook discussion.
Sylvia Woodman: I had to learn to stop being sarcastic.
Lisa Celedon: Soft tongued, too
Robin B: I like "keen"
Sylvia Woodman: I had to learn to keep my harsh observations to myself sometimes.
Sandra Dodd: I stopped being sarcastic one time. Just stopped. For SCA reasons, but it made me nicer and softer, so I didn't pick it back up after the season of needfulness ended.
Robin B: Softness. :-)
Sandra Dodd: http://sandradodd.com/humility/
Sandra Dodd: people who don't think they can probably won't want to try
AlexP: I am not sarcatic like I used to be. My husband was always hurt by my sarcasm.
Sandra Dodd: People who want to but can't, might become resentful and hardened.
Sandra Dodd: And sometimes they blame unschoolers, like "it's not fair" or they will want to be critical, rather than admitting they wish they could do it too
Sylvia Woodman: It's hard to describe, but certain behaviors were rewarded in my family and sarcasm was one of them. It turned out not to be a great thing for me in the long run.
Sukayna: or they just dont even like their kids in the first place
Sukayna: hear that (sadly) alot
AlexP: Same in my family Sylvia
Sukayna: sarcasm=wit
Sylvia Woodman: Oh that's awful! I love being with my kids!
AlexP: you can be witty without being sarcasti
Amber: We met online playing Boggle. We both type fast. He won almost every game he ever played. But he was so humble about it. Didn't gloat at all.
Sukayna: me too! since forever!~
Parvine: I love being with my kids but not everyone gets that..
Sukayna: I know I was responding to what Sylvia had written about her family
Sukayna: valuing sarcasm
AlexP: I absoultely love being with my kids
Marta Venturini: Bruno told me the other day that he lost a little bit of weight since he started smoking again and I sarcastically said something in return. As soon as the words came out of my mouth, I knew I should have kept them to myself. I've been more aware of moments when I feel like being sarcastic about him smoking and have been able to stop.
Sarah Rae: I think liking your kids is a big one! People can learn to be less controlling or more joyful but if there's somehow a genuine dislike...yikes.
Sukayna: sometimes people think it is sharp wit or intellect
Sukayna: mistaken belief of course ;)
AlexP: I got that Sukayna. Just making a note that they are not the same!
Amber: playful and positive
Sukayna: oh sorry then
Sukayna: i have heard yeah but then you are TOGETHER ALL THE TIME!
Sandra Dodd: There are people who think criticism proves intellect, too.
Sukayna: of the horrors
Lisa Celedon joined the chat 4 hours ago
Marta Venturini: I realized that it would be the same as him making sarcastic remarks about my weight, for instance, and even he said he was just kidding, I would feel hurt. So I stopped.
Sylvia Woodman: I think there was some of that at play in my family when I was growing up.
Sandra Dodd: To the point that if they go to a movie with a group, they will think those who said "good movie!" are stupid, and anyone who criticizes the script, acting, costumes... they're smarter.
Sukayna: criticism in relationships is different than in academia though
Sandra Dodd: That's a deadly sort of belief.
Lisa Celedon: (I'm having internet issues, sorry)
AlexP: Kindness- Megan Valnes sent me a note since she is gone from the chat. I just saw it.
AlexP: Unschooling without kindness I dont think it could go well.
Sukayna: yes- being positive is somehow less intellectual
Sandra Dodd: an academic critique, or critical thinking—those aren't the same as being a font of negativity, criticizing without thinking.
Sandra Dodd: My example above somewhere about people who say "That's stupid".... sometimes they say that FIRST
Sandra Dodd: and THEN they find something specific to blame.
Sukayna: yes- and people seem to think critical is smart in all aspects of life
Sandra Dodd: So
Sandra Dodd: Choices toward positivity instead of negativity are "getting warm."
Sandra Dodd: Ability and desire to be with and around children instead of sitting with the adults, ignoring all the kids. Positive step.
Sukayna: hard at first but once you start
Sukayna: the negativity is really palatable
Sandra Dodd: Choosing patience over your right to say no, I don't want to is good.
Sandra Dodd: After about the first 40 conscious more-positive choices, I think it DOES become easier, and someday it's automatic.
Sandra Dodd: OH WAIT!
Sandra Dodd: fifteen minutes left.
Amber: some sort of - faith maybe? in being willing to try? especially when starting out
Sandra Dodd: Back to who can unschool
Sandra Dodd: faith in the faith-and-hope way?
Sarah Rae: trust
Sandra Dodd: First people have faith in other unschoolers' stories.
Sukayna: faith in the lets give it a go way
Sandra Dodd: Then they start seeing it working in their own kids.
Amber: right
Sandra Dodd: It's like first we're holding the back of the bicycle, and after while they're riding on their own
Sandra Dodd: Resources—space and money?
Jill Parmer: You know, it really is so awesome to see the things my kids do in situations, and how they handle difficulties, and how they are with friends and acquaintaces after all these years of unschooling.
Sukayna: genuine desire to actually be there
Sandra Dodd: We've had people come to discussions who were living with parents or inlaws, and trying to unschool, and that wasn't working very well at all sometimes.
Sukayna: with the kids
Sandra Dodd: And that's one of those situations in which the older person's opinion really does matter.
Sandra Dodd: If it's her house, that mother-in-law or mother shouldn't be told that the kids have the option to XYZ, or that the children don't have to [whatever she wants done in her house with her furniture/dishes/bathtub]
Sandra Dodd: Or that the kids don't have to go to bed.
Sukayna: respect
Sukayna: real respect
Sandra Dodd: So I think having a house might be a good requirement for unschooling.
Sandra Dodd: Can't "homeschool" without a home.
AlexP: that is a good point.
Amber: house or home? must it be a house, could it be an apartment, condo, etc. or ?
Marta Venturini: Being trustworthy (don't remember if someone mentioned that already)
Sandra Dodd: That might sound harsh, but honestly, I get tired of explaining to adults old enough to reproduce that no, if they're living in someone else's house, that person DOES have a right to expect quiet, order, peace.
Sandra Dodd: Amber, what do you think?
Amber: home
Sandra Dodd: Is it a serious question?
Amber: clarifying
Lisa Celedon: (We live in an apartment)
Sandra Dodd: Even apartments can necessitate more limits, though.
Lisa Celedon: It's hard, harder in an apartment. There are more things to consider.
Sandra Dodd: If the walls are thin, parents need to keep noise toward non-shared walls (if any).
Sukayna: no downstairs neighbors
Lisa Celedon: Yes, lots. There is a 96 yr old woman living beneath us, and yes, sound travels through the walls.
Sandra Dodd: Rippy's family has downstairs neighbors.
Sandra Dodd: So they get out of the house more than they might, to run and jump
AlexP: Marta Yes!! A parent being trustworthy is very important. AlexP: If the child cannot trust the parent, even for guiding them where and when they can jump and make noise, unschooling will not go well.
Sandra Dodd: But seriousl, sometimes a parent seems to think that being an unschooler gives them rights. That if they become unschoolers, they can make noise all night. That's a lack of awareness. Lack of clarity
Parvine: We have lived in various apartments, that is when beach and parks were wonderful to have nearby.
Lisa Celedon: My son goes through periods where he really doesn't want to go out a lot, and getting out to playgrounds and other fun places is hard. He's getting hard to bribe out too. BUT even when it's not a choice, he is jumping around and we leave to go outside, it's better than being forced to leave to go to school.
Sandra Dodd: What about money? Sandra Dodd: If there's not enough money for food and utilities, School could be a blessing, for the babysitting and the free lunch
Sandra Dodd: Devyn gets free lunch and breakfast both, at school this year.
Sandra Dodd: Federal funding, I think.
Sukayna: flexibility- with everything really- but also money
Sandra Dodd: The parent doesn't need to buy into and enforce school's rules and schoolishness.
Sukayna: old stuff is ok
Sukayna: finding ways to get things
Sandra Dodd: They could use school for a while, rather than believe that they "have the right to unschool"
Sukayna: unschooling is cheaper than private school!!
Sandra Dodd: yes
Sukayna: we have more fun and more money and more cool stuff
Sandra Dodd: But having a job and using school as babysitting could be useful sometimes.
Sukayna: priorities then
AlexP: being creative and resourceful is a big asset too.
Sukayna: yes
Sukayna: also good life skill in " the real world"
Sandra Dodd: Next week: March 3 Uses of "the media"
Sandra Dodd: When I was a kid, media generally meant newspaper, magazine, radio, TV
Sandra Dodd: Thanks for coming!
