From the chat announcement:
Like a bicycle not quite catching the sprocket, sometimes people are moving along, roughly, and they're unschooling, but something isn't quite smooth, and then ZOOM! The chain catches and they're really going.
Did your own unschooling ever change gears that way? Do you remember something that caused a leap in your knowledge or comfort?
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Sandra Dodd: Does anyone here feel like being tagged in a four-positive-things four-days thing on facebook? I'm tagged. I was going to tag Holly and Destiny and I don't have a third. Ashlee and Marty are too busy, and off to camp for four days starting tomorrow.
AlexPolikowsky4: I have been tagged and have not done it yet.
Marta Pires: I've already been tagged by Jo Isaac and haven't done it yet.
Marta Pires: Alex, ha!
Robin B.: Busy with hula and traveling an anime convention, so maybe couldn't do it until next week (not sure of my internet access). But go ahead and tag me, if you like, Sandra.
Sandra Dodd: I declined to be named by Kirby to dump ice on my head. I told hiim I would make a donation. He wants an ice video. I talked him out of it.
Sandra Dodd: You could be grateful for hula and anime. And internet access! 
Sandra Dodd: Thanks.
AlexPolikowsky4: Gigi did it for me because she wanted to do it and Brian was already done and $30 was too much so we sent $20 and that is that! So you can see Gigi doing it for me (MUCH MUCH cuter no doubt about it)
Marta Pires: Gigi was so cute!
Sandra Dodd: I love the picture I saw somewhere in response to the complaints that the ice bucket challenge was a waste of water. It was a quizzically-looking assumed-to-be African kid and it said something like "So… you shit in clean water?"
Sandra Dodd: I could work that into a video of me writing a check.
Marta Pires:
AlexPolikowsky4: yeah I saw that too
Sandra Dodd: Good morning, welcome to the chat about "getting it."
ColleenP: Hi all!
Sandra Dodd: One of my favorite pages, on my site, is my collection of people saying they felt like they were unschooling and then something changed and they "got it."
Sandra Dodd: People are saying things like "It seems miraculous" and "It is amazing how far reaching the effect was."
Sandra Dodd: So this is part of why I'm uncompromising in my position about what does and what doesn't help.
Sandra Dodd: When people want to dilute unschooling, I object.
Marta Pires: I'm glad you're not willing to compromise. 
Sandra Dodd: When people want to devalue, granulate and scatter unschooling, they will keep people from reaching those miraculous-seeming and far-reaching results.
AlexPolikowsky4: Me too. It is just not the same. I have seen it.
Debbie: The diluters aren't people who have ever seen the wonder of the real thing. People who have seen, don't seem to want to dilute and scatter.
ColleenP: Today is the first day of school in our town. Counting on my fingers I realized Robbie would be a sixth-grader this year. That makes six years for us of living as if school didn't exist. I get it - and I love it
I realized Robbie would be a sixth-grader this year. That makes six years for us of living as if school didn't exist. I get it - and I love it
AlexPolikowsky4: And even more important is for those who think just doing nothing is the same as unschooling. I am talking disconnected, somewhat neglectful parents who may be sweet and all but still have not gotten it and that leaves kids without a real present partner they can rely on for support and guidance.
AlexPolikowsky4: Colleen how old is Robbie?
ColleenP: He's 11
AlexPolikowsky4: I think our boys are the same age. 12?
ColleenP: Almost the same age, yep 
AlexPolikowsky4: OK than maybe my son would be 7th grade!
Jill Parmer: It's cool that I still keep seeing far-reaching results with Addi 20 and Luke 16 now. And it's even more shocking to me to hear people talk about the necessity of school or the things they make their kids do in order to be future good adults.
Sandra Dodd: Marty (my #2 child, who is 25) has had a girlfriend for five years and they're getting married in three months. She went to school. She was a cheerleader. She has four siblings, two sisters who were near enough in age to be there while she was growing up.
Sandra Dodd: The other day Marty told me (in front of her) that she didn't know any Animaniacs songs. He said it as though it was a great loss and lack on her part. Not meanly, but calmly incredulously.
Sandra Dodd: Ashlee said that she and her sisters hadn't liked the show—it was too loud and fast for them.
Sandra Dodd: I think it's easy to tip the balance on something like that. Keith and I both thought the show was cute, funny, and "educational." They were being quite sarcastically educational, but pulled it off in very useful ways.
heathermbooth: I think Animaniacs came out my senior year in highschool. I remember coming home from school and watching it
Sandra Dodd: So even though Marty didn't go to school and Ashlee did, I bet Marty knows more nations of the world and state capitals and more about Magellan than she does.
ColleenP: ***things they make their kids do in order to be future good adults*** - yes! I was going to post something on Facebook about our morning, as my cousins were all posting first-day photos of their kids - but then I realized that sleeping til he wasn't tired any more, eating when he was hungry, reading a bit about WWII history and then watching some Pokemon... somehow that would not be taken as an example of How To Become A Proper Adult - which would of course involve alarm clocks, schedules, and things that are mandated rather than chosen. So I was quiet - but happy we have our way
Sandra Dodd: And he had more happiness and a better connection with his parents.
AlexPolikowsky4: I never watched! I am much older and did not have kids until I was much older also.
Sandra Dodd: We listened to a CD of Animaniacs in the car, and it had a song called "I'm Mad" that's just as intricate as the quintet in West Side Story (and lots funnier).
AlexPolikowsky4: I know my son NOW know more about the Middle Ages than most kids in school.
Sandra Dodd: We would sing it, Keith, too, on various parts.
Sandra Dodd
2025 note: the video link had disappeared; now there's a new link and an embedded video!
Sandra Dodd: And so even though my kids are grown, I still "get it" more solidly when I see little things like this come along. If Ashlee's parents had encouraged that show, there might have been less negativity at their house.
Sandra Dodd: The voice acting was amazingly good, there was always music, and there was philosophy.
Sandra Dodd: When DVDs were available, we got them.
Sandra Dodd: Parental encouragement, smiles, acceptance and support are what turn plain or unsettled life into magical and transformed shared lives.
AlexPolikowsky4: <<<<<<<<Parental encouragement, smiles, acceptance, support are what turn plain or unsettled life into magical and transformed shared lives.>>>>>>>>>>>>
AlexPolikowsky4: YES^^^^^^^^^^
Marta Pires:
Sandra Dodd: Quoting from that song (by singing a line or two) diffused lots of arguments.
AlexPolikowsky4: I am listening still!
AlexPolikowsky4: They are all happy now!
AlexPolikowsky4: Loved it!
Marta Pires: We were listening too! Conchinha was asking: "in what word are they speaking?"
HeheheSandra Dodd: In cartoon German-accent and cartoon Liverpool and normal Californian English.
Marta Pires:
AlexPolikowsky4
We used to play Little People tapes in the car and those were wonderful too! I remember a bunch of them!
ABC's ones and many cool songs that Daniel and I sang a lot!. Pretty awesome!
ABC's ones and many cool songs that Daniel and I sang a lot!. Pretty awesome!
Marta Pires: -=-Parental encouragement, smiles, acceptance and support are what turn plain or unsettled life into magical and transformed shared lives.-=-
Loved this, Sandra.
Loved this, Sandra.
Marta Pires: You know me. I'm a sucker for your quotes!
Sandra Dodd: I think people "get it" in waves, which is cool.
Sandra Dodd: Different levels as the kids get older and the parents' understanding grows.
Sandra Dodd: Plateaus.
AlexPolikowsky4
Just yesterday we had a busy but great day and during the day I could hear my son frustrated with some game he was playing. At night he asked me for a bagel and cream cheese as I was going to be for his last snack. I gave it to him lovingly and asked him that he please not play that game that made him mad because both dad and I really needed to sleep ( I had not slept at all the night before) .
He was quite as a mouse and went to bed without making a sound. He has been so amazingly sweet.
He was quite as a mouse and went to bed without making a sound. He has been so amazingly sweet.
Sandra Dodd: A higher vantage point, where they can perceive more, and see what other people are doing with a new understanding.
AlexPolikowsky4: I agree!
AlexPolikowsky4: I think what really helped me was the clarity brought by the discussions on Always Learning and how much the use of words was important ! Really made the difference.
Sandra Dodd: In 2004 there was a Live and Learn conference in Boston. That site/organizer combo became the Northeast Unschooling Conference (NEUC).
Sandra Dodd: But that first year, I was scheduled to do three talks: Beginning, Intermediate and Advanced unschooling.
Sandra Dodd: Someone(s) and I don't know who and don't really want to know started making noise about there being no such thing as advanced unschooling, and that shouldn't be on the schedule and bitching at the organizer. She defended me, not strongly, but during the conference, she asked if I could combine intermedate and advanced because she wanted to give my spot to somone who had shown up and had written a book she wanted to talk about.
Sandra Dodd: So neither the intermediate nor the advanced presentation got the full effect, my detractors won, and the book being promoted was
Sandra Dodd: Valerie Fitzenreiter | An Unschooling Life
Sandra Dodd: Not a great book. She hadn't been in any discussions, nobody had heard of her, she wrote about her experiences with her one child, and was given my spot and those who had claimed "no such thing as advanced unschooling" felt they had won. They proved their point, I guess, by someone unknown being given the hour that had been assigned to me.
Sandra Dodd: And at that point I had been helping other unschoolers for a dozen years. I'm pretty sure my understanding was more advanced than Valerie's. She was nice enough, but her ideas weren't polished in the tumbler of discussion and critical examination.
Sandra Dodd: So there are setbacks to the idea that there really ARE other things to "get."
Sandra Dodd: And people who resist are winning when they succeed at NOT understanding it more deeply
Sandra Dodd: I try to take a deep breath and turn 20 degrees so I can't see them so directly.
Sandra Dodd: Quite often they walk around and get back in my face, though.
Sandra Dodd: When I first started, I assumed my kids would go to the university when they were seventeen or so.
Sandra Dodd: They didn't.
Sandra Dodd: By the time they were that age, I wasn't envisioning it as clearly as I had when they were seven.
Sandra Dodd: Marty just spend $208.00 on a Calculus book (of our money—at least not a student loan!!) and said it was going to be stuff he could have learned on Wikipedia or Khan Academy, but they don't give college credit.
AlexPolikowsky4: EXACTLY what I think Sandra!
Sandra Dodd: Keith's dad was an engineer, Keith's an engineer, and Marty is their genetic match, so Keith wants to encourage Marty to do that.
AlexPolikowsky4: I graduated from Law School but boy I learned most of what i have worked with my entire life not in any school way !
Sandra Dodd: Marty is working full time, being the baron of al-Barran (two meetings a week or so, plus all day Sunday at the park for fighter practice, and one or two feasts or tournaments a month (half in town, half out of town)
Sandra Dodd: And he's taking calculus, sociology and logic. And getting married in November.
Marta Pires: Wow!
Marta Pires: He's kind of busy!
Sandra Dodd: I would like to say that I remember being that busy, but I was never that busy.
AlexPolikowsky4: Busy!
Sandra Dodd: Keith EITHER worked or went to school, or worked part time and went to school. Never fulltime.
AlexPolikowsky4: I remember being that busy.... wait.... I still am busy!
Sandra Dodd: Yeah, I didn't count the three-little-kids years. They were more flexible than a class schedule and a work schedule, though.
Sandra Dodd: None of Marty's stuff is hours he can choose.
Sandra Dodd: (Except to quit some of it.)
Sandra Dodd: So even though my kids are grown, the relationships still continue. Not maybe another plateau of unschooling, but more to understand and wonder about.
Sandra Dodd: But I do get that there are people his age with big student loans to pay off, and they might be working at target, too, or maybe they didn't finish their degrees.
Sandra Dodd: I get that Kirby supervises some people with degrees and loans, and that affects me strongly—that they're paying off loans with part of their paychecks and Kirby is not.
Sandra Dodd: I'm going to stop writing now, because I'm hogging the air. I'm using more than my share of the pixels.
Sandra Dodd: Let's go back to clearer understandings of how unschooling works and what it can do in a family, please.
Sandra Dodd: Tell stories, if you have some.
Virginia Warren: I started reading Sandra's website when I was pregnant with my Lydia, over 10 years ago. Still didn't stop me from bungling around. I got a bad case of full cup syndrome.
Virginia Warren: Wish I had joined Always Learning right away.
AlexPolikowsky4: Yes Virginia I got a lot before I joined Always Learning from reading and being in other groups but it was not until I joined that level of discussion that I started having clarity on my own thinking.
Marta Pires: We're not even unschooling yet, so no stories here.
Although I have already felt a bit of what you guys write and talk about, concerning "getting it", as Conchinha is growing and starting to be interested in more and more things. And maybe regarding the relationship part of it too.AlexPolikowsky4: Writing at that discussion helped me more than it helped others I am sure.
JoanneWilma
I wish I had listened to my mother who was not that hot on University. She paid off my school loans because I had gone to Europe and if you didn't start paying in 6 months of stopping school you had to start paying. It would have been money she would have given me anyway but I wish I had gone to Europe before University. I think I would have been much more directed, known a little about myself and what I wanted. Guess I can't say for sure.... Years in school left me little time I think to get to know myself. I don't want that for my kids. I think they can catch up on School but it is harder and takes longer to catch up on knowing yourself.
Virginia Warren: I slowly realized that I was being very schoolish (in myself) about learning about unschooling.
AlexPolikowsky4: Being mindful of my words while writing helped me think clearly!
Sandra Dodd: Virginia, can you elaborate on being schoolish about learning about unschooling?
Virginia Warren: I got stuck many times because I was missing information that I hadn't bothered to read because I thought I didn't "need" to read them.
JoanneWilma
I also have gotten a whole lot from these unschooling discussions than I would have ever believed. I got it I think when I realized that my whole outlook on life had changed. Is still changing...
Virginia Warren: Like, the way I was good at the school game was though min-maxing. Do only what you have to.
Debbie: For me, I grew into unschooling. It wasn't a lightbulb moment. I like Sandra's image of climbing, seeing more clearly what's around.
Sandra Dodd: JoanneWilma, if you click "join the chat" at the bottom, your messages will show differently. Eithe way is fine, though.
AlexPolikowsky4: I think when people who are knew start to see why they are doing < or not doing>something instead of looking for unschooling "rules" it is when they start to get it! I know it was for me. Even after years of reading about unschooling and doing attachment parenting ( and it all came very very easy for me) I still had times where I was not clear WHY!
Virginia Warren: I thought I didn't need to deschool because I was already disenchanted with school, and my kids had never gone. Wrong.
AlexPolikowsky4: Still deschooling here and there for sure!
Virginia Warren: I thought I didn't need to read the food pages because I didn't have any issues with food. Wrong.
Sandra Dodd: Good point. Being pissed off about school (or "disenchanted") probably means its roots are all in you.
Virginia Warren: Yup, school was the only nice thing for years and years of my childhood.
Sandra Dodd: One of my favorite aspects of which pages are what is that Pam Sorooshian's page about the economics of TV viewing is in my TV section, but her examples are about food, and I think it's most often used by people trying to relax about video games.
JoanneWilma: Thanks. Yes it is a slow process like Debbie said and like making connections in life is like. Building on things you already know and seeing how it makes sense over and over again.
Sandra Dodd: Learning it naturally is that way.
Sandra Dodd: Learning is schoolishly is deciding to study it and deciding you're done.
AlexPolikowsky4: I don't know what helped me because I really loved going to school ( not always but most times) . So I did not come to unschooling as a reaction to bad school experiences. IT was a continuing of Attachment Parenting and knowing that my son needed me and that sending him to strangers was not going to be something he would be OK or I would be OK. I wanted to be with him!
Marta Pires: Same here, Alex.
Virginia Warren: I started from Attachment Parenting, too.
Virginia Warren: My husband and I are life long gamers so we were never worried about games.
Sandra Dodd: When people are describing unschooling (usually from the outside) and they say it is child-led, or student-directed, and that kids decide what they want to learn, I want to transport myself to that place immediately and hold up my hand and say "Stop writing" or "Stop talking."
Marta Pires: I didn't love school, but didn't have a terrible experience either.
Sandra Dodd: I suppose that's an unreasonable desire.
Sandra Dodd: But it's an honest desire.
Sandra Dodd: And if the parents do think that unschooling is about children deciding what to learn, they will NOT see the thousands of things they learn without ever even knowing they're learning.
AlexPolikowsky4: What happened was that ALL the parents on my La Leche that were into Attachment Parenting were going into the very controlling way as the kids reached their toddler years. It just felt wrong to me. I did not have something concrete in my head and I was so lucky I stated reading about unschooling. It made sense to me. I could not believe you trusted your child one day but not the next!
AmyAnne: For us unschooling started because I'd been teaching at the university level for 3 years and my students not being prepared for university level work and discussion scared me. I wanted something more for my son.
Sandra Dodd: And the parents might, themselves, bat away all the things that would be directly and deeply applicable to understanding what, and why, because it's not one of the questions they have on their mental (or physical) checklist.
heathermbooth: Unschooling caught me by surprise. I went to a homeschool conference to get more resources for our school at home and left challenging everything I thought I knew about parenting and how we learn. I guess looking back though I was already questioning since I walked into talks like What is Unschooling and Partnerships In The Family.
Virginia Warren: The advice that has helped the most has been the simplest. Be present. Be helpful. Be kind.
JoanneWilma: I liked school too but I had my first son in Preschool and did not like that they wanted to take him out of the car while he was crying and saying no and they kept telling me I needed to just let him cry. I guess for them I did but it felt so wrong to me. I have never been able to do that. It was easy to find people who supported not going to school because I was already part of an alternative group. Attachment parents as well.
heathermbooth: Where I was really struggling unschooling seemed to be the answer to stop the struggles. I read The Big Book and everything in there made perfect sense to me. I was so inspired!
Sandra Dodd: Pm Sorooshian teaches economics at a state college, and she knows very well what "school kids" don't know, as adults, and what has been extinguished in them, and calcified. And what lame tools they have for "getting a grade" without learning.
Sandra Dodd: I've gone with her to class twice, two different courses, years. Young adults, older adults, few really interested.
Debbie: "Checklists" is a meagre way of approaching something as big and rich and life-changing as parenting our children.
AlexPolikowsky4: I definitely thought unschooling was child-led and kids asking to learn math or geography now Sandra. Luckly my son was only one or 2 and I had time to read more and watch my son learning and read more and I realize I was not in the right path.
Sandra Dodd: -=- I could not believe you trusted your child one day but not the next!-=- (Alex wrote that, above.)
Sandra Dodd: I think people in La Leche League are there for help with infants.
heathermbooth: I remember three or four months after reading the Big Book Monty asked something like, "So when is he going to ask to do school work." I knew then that wasn't what this was going to look like. It took him a little longer.
Sandra Dodd: Attachment parents want help with toddlers.
Sandra Dodd: And because they see their child as going through a series of metamorphoses, like an insect moving from egg to larvae to grub, they think once the transformation is over, they have a different sort of child.
heathermbooth: I knew we weren't taking a break from school work so he could come back renewed and enjoy it. I knew this was a completely different way of thinking; a different way of life.
Sandra Dodd: It seems so chancy, that different way of life, from the young-child side of it.
Sandra Dodd: The idea that someone could learn MORE than school, by not paying attention to what they're learning, seems wild fantasy.
Sandra Dodd: But by the time kids are ten, twelve, and the parents are starting to get used to unexpected knowledge and connections that would impress a graduate class professor… then they calm down.
AlexPolikowsky4: Maybe I could believe that the kids could learn without school was that I , my self, learned a LOT out of school all the time. ALL my life I did many different things NOT related with school or college. Things I was passionate about and learned because of that.
Sandra Dodd: And SO WHAT if at 18 they don't know about Napoleon or how to notate algebra?
Jill Parmer: Yes. It does seem like a wild fantasy. It's like adults or parents don't think that kids (humans) want to explore or are curious and explore some more.
Sandra Dodd: It's an honest ignorance—not the same as those kids in school who read, were told, were instructed, went through the motions, thinking "fuck this; it's stupid" and don't WANT to know, ever, after that.
Virginia Warren: To me, school felt like a tiresome game I had to play to earn the privilege to do what I really wanted.
AlexPolikowsky4: My son knows about Napoleon at 12! But not notated algebra (which you can learn anytime!)
Actually some people did not learn in school and later in life learned and said they probably were not ready. But again WHO needs notated algebra ? Not many careers (I loved algebra by the way and I am not great in math!)
Sandra Dodd: And the first time they see it or hear about Napoleon, whether it's in a movie, or Black Adder Back and Forth, or Wikipedia, or a battlefield tour, they will have things in their own knowledge to tie it to, and tying it in will NOT seem "schoolish" or academic. It will seem interesting.
Jill Parmer: I see my kids and others playing and researching and talking and arguing, and gaining knowledge and maturity
Sandra Dodd: I gave the example earlier of one family (kids in school) rejecting Animanicacs and another family, same part of the country, my family, LOVING, embracing, living with Animaniacs.
AlexPolikowsky4: Exactly! and that is why my son knows about Napoleon! Just a couple months ago the two of us were reading on him and that he was NOT that short!
Sandra Dodd: Jill wrote "It's like adults or parents don't think that kids (humans) want to explore or are curious and explore some more."
Sandra Dodd: If the parent doesn't think humans want to explore or are curious, it might be because that person (from school damage or parental negativity or genetic boringness) are not curious or explorational.
Sandra Dodd: And then unschooling might not work for them.
AlexPolikowsky4: Some adults do shy away from new knowledge that they do not "need" for work.
Sandra Dodd: Some parents seem to think they can wind their kids up and they will unschool themselves.
Sandra Dodd: Probably, Alex, for the reason Virginia gave up above. They learned to do the bare minimum to get by.
Sandra Dodd: It would be stupid (in school terms) to do more than necessary.
AlexPolikowsky4: and that is why child-led and autonomous are not great words to describe unschooling.,
Sandra Dodd: And when that is internalized and solidified, it might keep a parent from getting unschooling.
AlexPolikowsky4: Exactly Sandra!
Virginia Warren: Or "freedom". That sends up big red flags now.
Sandra Dodd: That will take a lot of deschooling, but the parent can still become a butterfly even after years and years of being a caterpillar eating the same frickin' leaves over and over and over.
heathermbooth: Or they think they've already done their time and don't need to learn anymore. I once asked someone who was arguing with me about unschooling how he learns things. He actually took a step back and said, "Well, I'm 32." In his mind how children learn and how adults learn is different. Children need to be taught, but once you turn 18, maybe, you don't need to be taught anymore. And maybe he thought he didn't need to learn anymore also.
Sandra Dodd: So, Virginia. If "freedom" didn't send up flags before and now it does, you're at a higher level of understanding.
AlexPolikowsky4
I saw a bit of that in Brian. I know it was because of school damage. He has really come a long way. He is the one know googling and asking to google stuff. Best thing I did was to get him his IPhone against his will ( he said it was too complicated and he did not need it)
That Iphone has really open up a world for him!
But most of all was becoming curious again because of the kids! Watching a show and wanting to know more to answer a question the kids had and them just to answer his curiosity! I am so glad he has stopped not wanting to know more.
Marta Pires: Cool, Alex! (about Brian)
That Iphone has really open up a world for him!
But most of all was becoming curious again because of the kids! Watching a show and wanting to know more to answer a question the kids had and them just to answer his curiosity! I am so glad he has stopped not wanting to know more.
Marta Pires: Cool, Alex! (about Brian)
Sandra Dodd: -=-He actually took a step back and said, "Well, I'm 32."-=-
Sandra Dodd: He learned that in school. That if you study hard, you will be a real adult, some Pinocchio-kind-of way.
Sandra Dodd: Google is so cool. If Google disappeared, the world would go dark.
Sandra Dodd: People used to say "I don't know" about more questions than they answered.
Sandra Dodd: Unschoolers used to recommend keeping a notebook of questions to look up later.
Sandra Dodd: Now things get looked up while the question is still in mind, while the song is still playing, while the show is still in progress, and not a day or a week later (or never) and that has GOT to add to the volume and speed of learning.
Robin B.: Sorry I havenʻt contributed - had hula- and anime-related things to handle, plus making breakfast (this time is not so good for me!) and now a vet appointment. Gotta go!
Virginia Warren: I went REALLY wrong with blaming my husband for things. Stepped back from that dangerous precipice, turned my back on that forever.
Sandra Dodd: Are you getting along well, virginia?
Virginia Warren: Very well
AmyAnne: Google is amazing. There were so many times the last few semesters I taught where students would ask questions that I didn't know the answer to. Then one of them would look it up while we discussed whatever we were going on about or I would look it up on my phone. Then we'd all have that answer.
AlexPolikowsky4
I now ask Brian " What tree is that?" and he jokingly says: "Dry cow pasture tree"
Because he was never curious . It has become a family joke: " Brown heifer shed bird"
But now we google it and learn because it is fun! We still call them by their made up names like "Stop and Go Birds" !
Brian called them that all his life. Then I looked up years ago and they are Killdeer birds! We learned a ton from them and we love them.
So much fun to figure out stuff! Like the new birds that showed up and made mud nests in the old barn!
Because he was never curious . It has become a family joke: " Brown heifer shed bird"
But now we google it and learn because it is fun! We still call them by their made up names like "Stop and Go Birds" !
Brian called them that all his life. Then I looked up years ago and they are Killdeer birds! We learned a ton from them and we love them.
So much fun to figure out stuff! Like the new birds that showed up and made mud nests in the old barn!
Sandra Dodd: Keith is starting to think about retirement. He saved money very efficiently, and then inherited some. We are at another plateau of marriage.
Sandra Dodd: Kids are grown (Holly's home again), and we could potentially move out of this house, so we're thinking about that (thinking and talking, not in a hurry).
Sandra Dodd: I see things about Keith that aren't perfect that I used to think would change, improve.
Sandra Dodd: And now I think… he's 59. Let him BE that way. Not that I wasn't, but I was a little stiff in those areas, like "he'll change, I'll be patient until he changes."
Sandra Dodd: Now I just help him and work around him. Or I look at it as a happy quirk, and figure if I've lived with it for 35 years, what another 20?
Not that I wasn't, but I was a little stiff in those areas, like "he'll change, I'll be patient until he changes."Sandra Dodd: Now I just help him and work around him. Or I look at it as a happy quirk, and figure if I've lived with it for 35 years, what another 20?
JoanneWilma: I think my husband got unschooling quicker than I did. No resistance. I am glad I stopped blaming him for things very early on. I started joining him on his terms. In the garage, with dinner, late at night. Family dinners work there too! He has been very supportive. I am lucky. And he didn't read much?
Jill Parmer: About adults and school damage. I work at a fabric store and teach sewing classes. I can't figure out if it's school damage or people can't learn from written instructions or diagramed instructions or videos, but some people will look at a tote bag and say they need to take a class in order to make it. Like they are not capable alone.
Sandra Dodd: It might be a "learning style" situation, but they might also want the social experience of sewing with a group, and to have someone say "good job."
AlexPolikowsky4: I do not think Brian got it early on but he sure trusted me and he had hated school so that helped. Meeting some great unschooling dad's he liked helped a lot!
Sandra Dodd: It's not easy for Brian to meet unschooling dads. They need to go to him, pretty much.
AlexPolikowsky4: There are some people that completely freeze and need "instructions " because they do not believe they can learn by themselves. I have seen that in some people or in some circumstances.
AlexPolikowsky4: Yes Both David Waynforth and Ben Lovejoy came over
Jill Parmer: That's what I was thinking, Alex. Sandra's explanation makes me feel a better; sometimes I feel like it's such a waste of money on these simple classes. Now I see it may be the social element or me saying "Good job!"
Jill Parmer: That feels so weird.
Sandra Dodd: I've used a sewing machine since I was little. Maybe some people are apprehensive about the machine itself.
Marta Pires: Is it possible that I'm not seeing some of the things that you guys talk about because Conchinha is still very young?
Sandra Dodd: And they want experienced witnesses.
AlexPolikowsky4: You know who he got along great and really liked? Serah's husband!
Sandra Dodd: Alex, also Scott Larson and Arif what's-his-name from Ontario
Sandra Dodd: Arif Lila
AlexPolikowsky4: Yes Marta. Conchinha is very young!
Marta Pires: Sometimes I get that feeling that I still haven't experienced what you guys are talking about and worry if I'm not doing something.
AlexPolikowsky4: Yes! They clicked really good Arif and Brian. That whole family is very sweet!
Marta Pires: Ok
Debbie: And a flip side of that 'good job' thing is being able to hear advice about how it might work better if you did this. Lots of schooled people struggle with hearing constructve ideas - a bit like they hear it as "bad job".
Sandra Dodd: We didn't experience those things until years in, Marta. Don't worry.
AlexPolikowsky4: What have you not experienced? Learning?
AlexPolikowsky4: or you getting it?
AlexPolikowsky4: Even when you get it you do not get it all at once. It comes in waves like Sandra put it. You get a bit more everytime. Or you get it deeper.
Marta Pires: The learning part, with Conchinha. Making connections.
Marta Pires: Yes, I realize that, Alex.
Jill Parmer
I got a sewing machine for Christmas when I was about 22, I opened the manual and started following the threading and sewing and cleaning instructions, and started making clothing right away. It was an awesome toy to me. No apprehension.
So I have a hard time understanding that people have that apprehension. It's like they are missing the 'I want to do this so let's start trying some things out'.
So I have a hard time understanding that people have that apprehension. It's like they are missing the 'I want to do this so let's start trying some things out'.
AlexPolikowsky4: I am sure you are seeing her learn and make connections but maybe you are expecting more schooly connections?
AlexPolikowsky4: It is like kids with video games. They start playing but sometimes they need to watch for a while before they take the plunge?
Jill Parmer: Yes, Debbie I've run into that many times. I really need to comfort people with they make mistakes, and cheer them on that it's all part of the process to try some things and see what works well, and what makes it harder.
Capn Franko: Gotta go. See y'all next time I'm awake this early.
AlexPolikowsky4: So I am sure Marta is seeing the learning , just maybe that she is learning about Monster High Girls and trust me it may look like that is all but there is much more to it
Marta Pires: Well, I don't think I'm looking for more schooly connections...
Marta Pires: But maybe I am?
Marta Pires: Gonna give this some more thought. Thanks Alex
AlexPolikowsky4:
Sandra Dodd: OH! Marta. She's learning and learning and I think the connections will start to show when she's 8 or 9.
Sandra Dodd: I think I understand your question now.
Marta Pires: Yes
Sandra Dodd: There's a stage of development when kids start synthesizing information and speculating and looking further.
Sandra Dodd: And it's not when they're four.
AlexPolikowsky4: Some learning is very internal and you may not see it and one day be surprised!
Marta Pires: Ok, I think that's it.
Sandra Dodd: Five. I forget how old.
Debbie: Sometimes learning doesn't show for ages, like with kids who don't read and then they read well. Learning was happening inside.
Marta Pires: I can clearly see that she's learning tons.
Sandra Dodd: And all that learning will be a part of her knowledge, vocabulary, model of the universe.
Marta Pires: But yes, what I don't see and that I read a lot about, when you guys write about it, is the looking further that Sandra wrote about.
Sandra Dodd: Scaffolding, if you want to think of it that way. Web, net, dots to be connected later.
Jill Parmer: So much is happening inside her brain. I remember Addi saying 'I used to think some such when I was 4, 5, 6,) And it was years later when she'd tell that.
AlexPolikowsky4: Also some kids will talk about and question and some will keep it inside. Those kids are learning but a parent needs to really sit and observe what they are doing and even then not see it much until they say something or do something one day and you are like"OMG how did you learn that?"
Marta Pires: Yes, Jill.
Jill Parmer: Personally, I used to think Dogs were boys and Cats were girls!
Sandra Dodd: Well, duh.
Debbie: I think it's seeing more clearly what was there all the time, but was obscured by school, and other, frames of reference.
Sandra Dodd: They SEEM like that. Dogs are more like human males and cats are more like human females.
Sandra Dodd: Doesn't every intelligent child think dogs are male and cats are female?
Sandra Dodd: I want to find that term for kids' new level of understanding. I know it's 11:30 but wait.
Virginia Warren: Sometimes we say our kids have "leveled up" in something. When we see those big jumps.
Marta Pires: I'll wait! I want to know.
Sandra Dodd: "Concrete operations":
Sandra Dodd: The concrete operational stage begins around age seven and continues until approximately age eleven. During this time, children gain a better understanding of mental operations. Children begin thinking logically about concrete events, but have difficulty understanding abstract or hypothetical concepts.
Sandra Dodd: piaget's stages of cognitive development.
Marta Pires: I should know that.
Sandra Dodd: Piaget has been criticized for this and that, but those stages seem to have merit and sense. The ages won't be the same with all children, but I think all kids go through those processes of maturation.
Sandra Dodd: By that, younger kids are "properational."
Sandra Dodd: Still learning, but not recombining or running scenarios.
AlexPolikowsky4: I got to go! Cow having baby I need to check as Brian is gone. Gigi is really worried and wants me to go NOW! BYE~!
Virginia Warren: bye!
Sandra Dodd: Bye, Alex. Bye everybody! Holly and I are going to the movies, now.
