Siblings: Attending to Very Young Children and Their Siblings

Some ideas are here: http://sandradodd.com/siblings

Sara Vaz joined the chat

Marta Pires joined the chat 

Marta Pires: Hi everyone!

AlexPolikowsky4 joined the chat

AlexPolikowsky4: Hello!@

Lisa C joined the chat 

Lisa C: Hello!

MelissaYatzeck joined the chat

MelissaYatzeck: Hello 

Lisa C: Alex, that link you sent me for the mario you tube video was golden. It had Josh belly-laughing  He was watching another video from the same channel last night and was CRACKING up!

Marta Pires: Hi Melissa! Are you coming to Portugal after all? 

Sara Vaz: Hello everyone 

MelissaYatzeck: No, Marta, it looks like those plans are on hold for now. Just found out we are expecting a baby this fall!

Marta Pires: I know, I saw the big news on facebook! Congratulations!  On the other hand, I'm sad that you're not coming... 

Sylvia Woodman joined the chat

Sara Vaz: ❤ Congratulations, Melissa!

Sylvia Woodman: How exciting! Hi everyone!

MelissaYatzeck: Thanks. I feel like I especially need the sibling chat now!

Marta Pires: Hehehe

Sandra Dodd joined the chat

Sandra Dodd: That was a very cool birth announcement. 

Sylvia Woodman: Oh what was it?

MelissaYatzeck: The really cool part is that the picture was the first take! We took it right after we told the kids.

Marta Pires: Lisa, I loved what you wrote on the Always Learning list about reading about and getting unschooling.  Sara and I were just talking about that yesterday. 

MelissaYatzeck: Can I attach a photo to this chat?

Sylvia Woodman: (I'm so nosey!)

Lisa C: (I wanna see too!)

Marta Pires: Such a sweet photo!!!

heatherbooth joined the chat

MelissaYatzeck: Try this link (not sure if it will work): https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t31/736014_10102817798550997_765846239_o.jpg

AlexPolikowsky4: Great Lisa!

Sara Vaz: Yes  Reading is not getting it.❤

Marta Pires: It works, Melissa.

Marta Pires: (it did for me)

AlexPolikowsky4: I am so excited to see Melissa with her belly this year! I can't wait!

heatherbooth: Can I ask a before-the-chat question that has been bouncing around in my head since I talked about it with some friends this weekend?

heatherbooth: Oh, and congratulations Melissa!

Sara Vaz: Lovely! 

AlexPolikowsky4: Yeah, that announcement was so awesome!!!!!!!

AlexPolikowsky4: I love Melissa's kids!

Lisa C: Thanks Marta. I was also feeling some self consciousness as I wrote it... I write more often than I do sometimes... but I'm doing more now, and getting more. And am going to be writing less. 

AlexPolikowsky4: And read again! Everytime I reread something I get something else! Or more. Or another facet!

MelissaYatzeck: Thanks, Alex. 

Robin B.: Sweet photo, Melissa!

Marta Pires: You're gonna get to see a lot of people this year, Alex! Right? Just the other day I think I saw Karen James write that she was thinking of going to the Minnesota ALLive symposium. Lucky you!

AlexPolikowsky4: I so hope she comes!

Lisa C: YES.

MelissaYatzeck: Joey just walked past me and saw I had the photo up on my screen and he said to me, "I love the four."

Lisa C: That announcement pic has something epic about the energy. LOVE it!

AlexPolikowsky4: Joey is a pumpkin! Little miniature Joe!

Sylvia Woodman: Adorable!

heatherbooth: I've often heard people talk about this idea that when they were kids they were forced to do things that they now enjoy. The idea being that they are glad they were forced to do these things (hiking was the example) because without the force they would be missing out now. And they use this logic to force their kids to do things.

Robin B.: Ugh, Heather. It's justification for being treated badly. Like "I was spanked and I'm okay."

MelissaYatzeck: I've been seeing that a lot on facebook lately. About spanking.

Marta Pires: Great question, Heather.

heatherbooth: I've been trying to understand it so I know how to respond when it comes up. For the past couple of days I've been thinking of things I was forced to do as a child and how that may impact me today. I keep coming back to being grateful for the sweet things my parents did, not the things I was forced to do.

Sylvia Woodman: I'm not at all sure that "being forced" leads to loving something later.

AlexPolikowsky4: People change. When I was young I hated peas. My parents never made me eat them. I absolutely LOVE peas now.

Sylvia Woodman: Like if you eventually love hiking it may not be connected directly to being dragged to do it when you were a kid.

MelissaYatzeck: Forcing kids to do something can easily backfire.

Sylvia Woodman: Things are usually not directly connected in straight lines like some folks would like us to believe.

heatherbooth: I can't think of a time when I forced Austin to do something and it went well.

Sylvia Woodman: There is so much murky stuff like motivation, and desire for approval, and and and...

AlexPolikowsky4: While my brothers and sister loved doing sports I was not into any. Then in my late teens I started doing stuff because I started liking it and for many years I was big, bodyboarding, biking, working out like crazy.

Lisa C: I was coerced into riding a roller coaster as a seven year old by my then step-dad. (Space mountain) I was terrified, but felt I had no choice. And then he wouldn't ride it with me, so I was alone, in the dark, on my first roller coaster. I slid under the bar and rode the entire thing on the floor of the car. I got yelled at by the technician and my step dad when the ride was over. I LOVE roller coasters now. I don't think my love for roller coasters is AT ALL related to the fact that someone forced me onto one because they thought it would be fun. In fact, that probably delayed, hampered, and colored my enjoyment of them for some time.

heatherbooth: I can't think of a time when I was forced to do something and it later led to a love of that thing.

AlexPolikowsky4: What Melissa said. Maybe for some they will never do it again because they were made as a child.

heatherbooth: That is a terrifying story, Lisa.

Marta Pires: Oh, I thought you were going to talk about how it can be good to persuade a little, sometimes. Not force. Definitely not force.

Lisa C: And the music was loud and scary. I still remember how terrifying that was. And when the technician yelled, 'you know you could have died not wearing the lap bar, right?"

Lisa C: I LOVE LOVE Space Mountain now. LOVE it. But NOT because of that.

reneecabatic joined the chat

Sandra Dodd: Genetics. Some people hike because they're physical and curious and have the spatial skill to know where they are and they love getting away from mapped areas, to soar on their internal map skills.

AlexPolikowsky4: My brother did not even make a grilled cheese until he went to live in California. A couple years later he was working as a cook in a super fancy restaurant and doing amazing. I think many parents think they "have to make" their kids do something or they never will. They have to make them read, eat right, etc, or they will never learn to or do it when they grow up.

Alison joined the chat

Capn Franko joined the chat 

Robin B.: That thinking (force equals something I now love) implies a causal relationship where there's none at all. What if you always felt you had the choice to do something, you were offered things with no expectations? I think it would be more likely that you'd find something you loved without the terrible emotional baggage. It might even be the same thing, but enjoyed with lightness.

Sandra Dodd: I took piano lessons when I was five. I wasn't forced. I wasn't "made" to practice. I liked to. I quit, to watch Wagon Train. Probably other reasons, some frustration or other, but I remember being happy that I was home on Wagon Train night instead of at the piano lesson. I still remember her little dog and her piano bench. I have no image of the teacher or the front of her house, though.

Alison: Is it that we worry they'll regret later that they didn't do something earlier?

Alison: (Sorry if I phrased that badly.)

JennyC joined the chat 

Sandra Dodd: I still practiced what I had learned, and got better on my own. When I wanted to start lessons again when I was 13, I started on Thompson Book Three, I think. Or halfway through two. I had practiced with hymnals, and music books my dad found at the dump. So… it *could* be said that I had lessons as a child and… but it was my choice to start, to practice, to stop, and nobody "made me" do anything.

Serah joined the chat

heatherbooth: I think there may also be something internalized in the idea that they had to be forced to like something. The idea of parents, teachers, people who are older and have more authority knowing what's best. Knowing better than you yourself know.

Sandra Dodd: The next interview being published in the HSC magazine has a little bit about Adam Daniel learning to ski. He's eight (nearly nine) and has skied black runs (expert) for a couple of years.

Sandra Dodd: But he wasn't pressed to take lessons at all. The full, longer version will be on my website, at some point, with details. Good ones.  It will be a good thing to point people to when these topics come up.

Sandra Dodd: Of course it didn't hurt a bit that his parents could afford to hire someone to hang out with him casually, who was willing to do it unschooling-style for them.

Lisa C: I was trying to persuade my cousin to read Harry Potter, because I think once she gets past the first two, she will LOVE it. I know her, I know her tastes. But she really doesn't want to read it and has her reasons. I think making suggestions about things someone might like is okay... but persuading can get disrespectful. My cousin may never read Harry Potter. Or she might some day. Her life will be just as good either way.

JennyC: I was forced to attend church and be a part of ALL church activities. As soon as I moved out of my parents home, I stopped going!

Robin B.: That could be true, Alison. But worry doesn't help. It's looking at someone who doesn't exist yet, instead of at the child right now.

reneecabatic: When people say they are glad for having been forced to do something I think they are justifying (rationalizing) their treatment by their parents. It's too painful to think otherwise.

Robin B.: Yes, Renee.

Lisa C: Yes Renee. Finding a way to see the positive in something that was negative... or justifying something that was negative.

AlexPolikowsky4: Gigi wanted piano lessons with a friend of ours. She does not practice. She is happy just going once a week and doing 30 minutes. She is happy and learning. I told my friend and her piano teacher that I had no expectations and just wanted her to have fun and did not care if she got better or not.

Robin B.: Sandra, it strikes me that your piano experience was one of the sweeter things in your childhood.

Sandra Dodd: I think in some ways it was, Robin.

Sandra Dodd: Keith, same as JennyC: I was forced to attend church and be a part of ALL church activities. As soon as I moved out of my parents home, I stopped going!

Alison: Thank you, Robin. Yes, and also, after I typed I realized, "So, do I think my goal is to make sure my future adult child has no regrets? That sounds like a good way to make myself crazy."

Lisa C: I will be afk a lot, right now the laptop is in the bathroom while my two year old takes a bath.  LOVE laptops.  My 4 yr old is settled with a movie and a plate of apples and salami.

Sandra Dodd: I was NOT forced to go to church, and I still go to church sometimes.  I FORGOT (embarrassing, to me) to leave some free Sunday mornings in Australia so I could go to Australian church. They're all booked up, I think. I might look for a Wednesday night service or a revival. Seriously. I want to hear the Lord's Prayer with an Australian accent.

Robin B.: And a good way to injure your relationship with your child, Alison.

Lisa C: But this topic was my suggestion so I wanted to be here for it, as much as I can. 

MelissaYatzeck: Yes, Lisa, it's hard to fit the chats in with little ones in the house, but I really wanted to talk about this topic!

AlexPolikowsky4: Sandra, Gigi had the best experience skiing 2 years ago. This past Sunday we went again and she got a bad instructor and it was a crazy packed day and she had a miserable experience. I took her out of the class (she wanted out) in the middle and we left. Going to do it differently next time. First time her cousin was her instructor and it was almost a private lesson so it was awesome. It has made me upset since Sunday.

Robin B.: I'm here for moral support, as I have only one child. 

Sandra Dodd: Lisa, let us know your concerns, and we can discuss those things.

JennyC: Regrets? Hhhhmmm. I don't know if my kids have regrets. It's more likely that I will, and I do have some, but they aren't about making kids do things.

heatherbooth: Robin, me too. 

Robin B.: 

heatherbooth: Although, I think it's good to have ideas to give when it comes up with friends who have more than one.

AlexPolikowsky4: I have two but they are bigger now. 

Robin B.: Yes.

Capn Franko: I'm just kibitzing cuz I have two peri-adult girls.

Robin B.: Peri-adults. 

Marta Pires: I'm here because someday I might be a mom of two...  (no, I'm not pregnant, but we're thinking about it) 

Alison: Mine are also older, but I'll listen in.

Sandra Dodd: I agree with Heather and Robin. I only had an only child for 2.5 years. It hardly counts. But because of reading for so many years, I have lots of knowledge about onlies and what has worked.

Serah: I've got 2 older boys with a baby coming soon 

Capn Franko: Well, I'm only a semi-adult. Nominally.

Sara Vaz: ❤Marta 

MelissaYatzeck: I think it is partly because of this long cold Wisconsin winter we are in, and partly because I am pregnant and more tired than usual, but I am feeling really overwhelmed right now, and my husband has been saying he thinks our oldest (Mary, who will be 8 next month) would be better off in school next year.

Marta Pires: And I agree with Heather, that it's good to have ideas.

reneecabatic: Congratulations, Serah!!

Sandra Dodd: I have reported in the past how well my kids get along as adults, but… Right now Holly's very cranky with Kirby. And Kirby laughs and shakes his head about Holly.

Sandra Dodd: Maybe they'll recover and maybe they won't. I've heard both sides. I still like them both. 

Serah: Thanks, Renee.

JennyC: Interesting, a lot of people pull their kids out of school at the age of 8.

AlexPolikowsky4: NO WAY Melissa! Send Mary to me  Gigi would love that 

Sandra Dodd: Marty has irritated both of them at one time or another, but for this season, Marty is the stable, helpful star of the show.

reneecabatic: Big changes happen @ 8 or so.

Sandra Dodd: That switches.

Sara Vaz: Congratulations Serah❤!

JennyC: Is it a transitional kind of year for kids?

MelissaYatzeck: I think that is true, Renee. I think 2nd or 3rd grade is when a lot of people perceive that school gets more serious.

Sandra Dodd: Nothing is a transitional year for ALL kids.

AlexPolikowsky4: Maybe I will meet Serah's baby! Well, all of her babies!

MelissaYatzeck: So my husband was more comfortable with unschooling for kindergarten and first grade, but now he feels like there should be more "schooly" things being done at our house.

Serah: I hope so, Alex! Thanks, Sara. 

Sandra Dodd: Melissa, does he just not pay attention when he comes to a symposium?  Seriously...

JennyC: Melissa, that happened at my house too.

Robin B.: Congratulations, Serah!

AlexPolikowsky4: Mary probably reads way ahead than most kids her age! She is pretty amazing. I saw her reading!

Sylvia Woodman: Third grade was the year I started running away from school.

Sandra Dodd: If he wants a fluffy, impressive cake instead of flat, burned cake batter he needs to let it rise!

Sandra Dodd: You cannot uncook that cake.

MelissaYatzeck: Yes, I think she is very bright, and if she were in school she would be right on track or ahead. Another problem is that Joe doesn't know very many kids, or remember much of anything from his childhood, so he often says he thinks she would be BEHIND if she was in school.

Sylvia Woodman: I hope he doesn't say that where your daughter can hear!!!!

Sandra Dodd: Then he needs to stop paying attention at symposiums and start hanging around with the other people's kids. 

Robin B.: Melissa, can you get him to ALL at Alex's this year?

Lisa C: I used to be 100% convinced that there was not enough of me to go around (and I only have 2!). I'm starting to believe and make an abundance of myself possible to my kids, though there are still lots of days where it seems they are still feeling the lack. I don't think I will ever be able to give them each all the time with me alone that they'd like. For that, I'd need a clone. But I am working on ways to balance their needs. My older child is often loud, and rowdy, and outgoing, and my little one is often shy, and quiet. They are both very sensitive. My little one often pulls me away from the room my older child is in, to play in a different room, quietly. He likes quiet focus, and my older one likes me to be loud and rowdy with him. I sometimes have days where we achieve a great balance. It HELPS a lot when I stay focused on them and don't think about housework and being on the computer and such until later, when it's obvious they've both had their fill. But sometimes it's really hard to meet both their needs, and when they're both needing opposite things at the same time. The other thing too, is that my 2 yr old still nurses often, and when he was little it was easy to get up and do things for and with my older son, holding the nursing one in one arm. He's 30 pounds now and I'm 5'2 and it's no longer very possible to do that. That frustrates my older one a lot. Okay sorry that's SO LONG and SO MUCH but I will be afk for awhile.

JennyC: If the average kid is middle, then half the kids are behind in some way right?

Robin B.: Oh, he's been.

MelissaYatzeck: We are planning on going. We were there last year!

AlexPolikowsky4: Gigi is Mary's age. Right now it is winter and she spends most of her time talking to her friends on Skype, making minecraft skins, Minecraft, some Animal Jam and Roblox, talking on skype some more, youtube and watching some Anime (Attack on Titans this moment).

AlexPolikowsky4: Robin, they were here last year!

AlexPolikowsky4: But I remember he was worried that Joey was not reading like Mary was (because Mary read very very early).

Sylvia Woodman: What is afk?

Sandra Dodd: Every child gets too big to carry, if you're lucky, if they're healthy, if they live.

Robin B.: Yes, I figured that out from Sandra's comment!

Sandra Dodd: away from keyboard, Sylvia.

Sylvia Woodman: Thank you - I thought it was a typo the first time.

MelissaYatzeck: Yes, Mary is also spending a lot of time on Skype and Minecraft. In fact, she and and Joey are skyping and minecrafting right now, near me.

AlexPolikowsky4: Cool!

Sandra Dodd: They were in Albuquerque a couple of years ago, and Minneapolis last year, Robin.

Sandra Dodd: It might help if you can find an activity involving other kids her age, Melissa, that the whole family can be involved in, some.

MelissaYatzeck: I wish I could Skype and Minecraft along with them more often, but it is hard to do with Lily needing attention, and will be even harder with a new baby.

AlexPolikowsky4: So skyping and Minecrafting, Gigi is writing a ton! Reading everything. There is a ton of Math, building, geometry, planning with her friends, negotiating, she also applied to be moderator and helper in some servers. She is doing some amazing things. Maybe translate that to your husband?

MelissaYatzeck: I probably could do a better job of translating, Alex.

MelissaYatzeck: Joey has picked up tons of reading and writing on Skype and Minecraft.

Robin B.: Melissa, would your husband read Pam's series of emails on unschooling?

AlexPolikowsky4: I think that would help immensely Melissa! Point out all the great stuff she does.

reneecabatic: What about hosting a minecraft gathering with friends her age? Where Joe could see.

Sylvia Woodman: Maybe make a point of sending him text messages with pictures when they are doing awesome stuff!

AlexPolikowsky4: How good she is at spelling. That she created a rollercoaster (examples), that has physics, use educationese!

MelissaYatzeck: Well, he has a seasonal job so he is home a lot during the winter. That may be part of the problem - he sees them skyping and minecrafting a lot, and isn't that impressed.

Sandra Dodd: It helped Cyrus Sorooshian to coach girls' soccer and see his girls in action with/around other girls their age.

Sandra Dodd: Melissa, will he read the minecraft pages on my site? There are three of them.

http://sandradodd.com/minecraft

http://sandradodd.com/videogames/minecraft

http://sandradodd.com/videogames/minecraftlearning

reneecabatic: But he doesn't see other kids, right?

JennyC: There are some really great Minecraft articles!

Sandra Dodd: Has he played any, or will he hang around older minecraft players at the symposium?

AlexPolikowsky4: I got Gigi some Minecraft paper crafts for Christmas. Tons of fun!

MelissaYatzeck: I will look at your Minecraft pages again, Sandra.

JennyC: Does he have a "thing" he does with the kids?

JennyC: For my husband, he played music with them.

JennyC: And for a while we all went ice skating together.

AlexPolikowsky4: My son just came down to tell me about learning Lua and scripting a little more on Roblox. Pretty amazing stuff. Maybe my son will go to the Symposium one day and help kids with gaming (he likes helping others with gaming, specially kids) and Joe can talk to him. He can talk gaming but is shy about other stuff.

MelissaYatzeck: My husband does play Minecraft with the kids and likes it. But to him it doesn't "equal" school, if that makes sense.

Sandra Dodd: It makes sense for someone who isn't deschooled, who isn't looking for learning.

Sandra Dodd: He's looking for lack of learning, I suspect.

Sandra Dodd: He could do that for the next 12 years, or he could take steps toward becoming an unschooler himself, so that he ONLY and always sees learning.

MelissaYatzeck: I am feeling like I need to be doing more to make our lives seem more sparkly, as it's often been put.

Sandra Dodd: It can't be inserted in him, though. It needs to be drawn in, discovered.

Sylvia Woodman: But making life more sparkly is never a bad ambition.

AlexPolikowsky4: Will he sign up and watch the talks here (free) https://www.coursera.org/course/videogameslearning

Sandra Dodd: NO, Melissa. Not seem more. It's not often put "make your life seem sparkly" because it's an option, or a slight possibility of improvement.

JennyC: Can he articulate what he wants to see? Wanting to see more school, is very general and broad.

Sandra Dodd: It is the difference between dull and vibrant, between comatose and lively.

Sandra Dodd: If your life is not sparkly, your husband is going to think public school third grade looks better. That will be a problem.

Sandra Dodd: And this might be your problem right here: "to make our lives seem more sparkly, as it's often been put."

MelissaYatzeck: Yes. That IS the problem.

Sylvia Woodman: Has he had any opportunity to be with other unschooling dads?

MelissaYatzeck: He thinks third grade looks better.

Sandra Dodd: NOBODY, ever, I think, has said "make your life seem more sparkly."

Sandra Dodd: Not seem.

Sandra Dodd: No pretending.

MelissaYatzeck: So I don't need to seem more sparkly. Our house needs to BE more sparkly.

AlexPolikowsky4: Maybe he does not remember what kids are really learning in 3rd grade. 

Sandra Dodd: Not your house. Your thoughts, your interactions, your moods, your responses.

Sandra Dodd: Sparkling, like sparkling from one thought to another, connecting a picture with a song with a joke with a movie with a dog.

JennyC: For my husband, he wanted to see reading happening, but our oldest didn't read until she was 11. He made the connection at some point, while complaining about it, when the other person asked him how often he read for himself and how often he read to her. The answer was never and never.

Robin B.: That's what I was thinking! What are kids learning in 3rd grade? I remember bullying starting around then.

Sandra Dodd: Stop talking about third grade, pretty please, everybody.

Sandra Dodd: It's different place to place, time to time, and doesn't matter.

Robin B.: Sorry. 

Alison: Actually the concern of how to make what we do look better through another's eyes is what got me looking for support today. In my case, it's that I'm looking at our legally required portfolio for review. But that's not entirely unlike presenting the unschooling experience to a skeptical spouse.

Sandra Dodd: People can look up the local third grade curriculum where they live. It will NOT improve their unschooling one bit, no matter whether the kid is ahead or behind or exactly there.

Capn Franko: Bullying starts WELL before 3rd grade, IME.

MelissaYatzeck: Thanks for saying that before I went and looked it up.

Sandra Dodd: Don't even look.

Sandra Dodd: That's not the topic, Alison. If you have to keep a portfolio, do NOT make that the center of your life.

JennyC: In the meantime, I was reading to our kids almost every day, listening to books on cd, and watching movies based on books. It made a difference for us!

Sandra Dodd: Talk to other people in your area, and not here. Sorry. It won't help with the topic at all.

Alison: Ok.

Sylvia Woodman: In December I sat down and made a list of things I wanted to do that month -- holiday related things -- winter related things-- some day trips some craft things, some baking, etc etc. Then I sat down with Jim and we looked at a calendar and scheduled them. We didn't get to everything on the list but our December was MUCH more sparkly than previous ones.

MelissaYatzeck: Yes, Jenny, I think reading to kids and kids being around adults who use reading helps a lot.

AlexPolikowsky4: Your daughter was reading super early without school! Think of all she did without lessons and school work. It is pretty amazing, most people don't believe possible!

Sandra Dodd: Today's topic:

Sandra Dodd: January 22, Siblings: attending to very young children and their siblings. Some ideas are here: http://sandradodd.com/siblings

Sylvia Woodman: It was so much fun that we sat down as a family and made a January and February list too. (Some of the things are flexible - we want to go to the planetarium but we don't care if we go Jan or February)

Marta Pires: Lisa wrote: -=-I'm starting to believe and make an abundance of myself possible to my kids, though there are still lots of days where it seems they are still feeling the lack. I don't think I will ever be able to give them each all the time with me alone that they'd like. For that, I'd need a clone.-=- Making an abundance of ourselves  I think that this is one of the most often asked questions in the Portuguese group (there are a lot of families with little ones in Portugal wanting to unschool).

JennyC: Here we are now, that kid is 19 and her younger sister is 12 and guess who goes and gets requested books from the library? Dad! He's come a Long way!

Marta Pires: How can a mom do this?

Sandra Dodd: Thanks, Marta. I was just hoping to look at Lisa's concerns.

Marta Pires: 

JennyC: One thing I did was to find as many things as possible that both of my kids enjoyed!

heatherbooth: Jill's daughter was here in Decemeber visiting and we made a list that we kept adding to for Christmas-y things to do. Watch movies, do crafts, see lights, make food and drinks. Lots of little things. It was fun.

JennyC: Sometimes that was a challenge because they are 7 yrs apart. But we found movies to watch together, and outings we all enjoyed and activities we all liked.

Sylvia Woodman: When Harry was a baby we had a mother's helper who came twice a week for a couple of hours (4-6PM) She mostly cooed at the baby while I played with Gabriella who was two at the time.

Sylvia Woodman: We all looked forward to those afternoons.

Lisa C: I am finding little things I can do in 'down time', besides check my email, like, going in to my older one, giving him a kiss and saying I love you. Bringing him some candy or water or juice. Doing that lots and lots every chance I get has been helping. Maybe I need to keep that up, lots, everyday. I forget.

Sandra Dodd: Having a mother's helper is great. Having other families to trade kids with can help enormously.

MelissaYatzeck: I forget too.

MelissaYatzeck: A mother's helper is a great idea.

Sandra Dodd: Not "playdates," but long visits, where you're babysitting one or more of theirs, in exchange for a long visit later for one or more of yours at their house.

reneecabatic: Having 2 simultaneously meant some of our sibling issues were more intense and others were easier... but I can say that meeting both of their needs has been a very creative enterprise all these years!

Sylvia Woodman: Being proactive is HUGE if you can connect with them before they come looking for you can make a huge difference in how your kids feel.

Sandra Dodd: Yes, Sylvia's right.

Sandra Dodd: Don't make them beggars.

Sandra Dodd: If/when they do need to beg, don't wait until they're whining to really listen.

Sylvia Woodman: If I can bring someone a snack before they come tell me they are hungry it can make a real difference in the kind of day we are all having!

Sandra Dodd: I'm going to bring that quote with more on each end (Lisa, quoted by Marta, but here it is longer):

[lisa had written:] "I used to be 100% convinced that there was not enough of me to go around (and I only have 2!). I'm starting to believe and make an abundance of myself possible to my kids, though there are still lots of days where it seems they are still feeling the lack. I don't think I will ever be able to give them each all the time with me alone that they'd like. For that, I'd need a clone. But I am working on ways to balance their needs."

Lisa C: There is a family of two older kids near us who would probably love to help me out. They love all our toys and that we have minecraft. They are 10 and 13. I can't afford to pay them more than once every now and then though, and am a little afraid to ask about other possible arrangements besides hourly pay. I don't know their family very well. But they are very friendly people.

Sandra Dodd: When someone thinks she's not doingenough, then she's not.

Sandra Dodd: I think it's possible to shut the door on any outpouring of generosity or attention.

Sandra Dodd: So good, that Lisa goes on to say she's starting to believe there are other ways.

Sandra Dodd: "Balance their needs" might not be a good path to follow.

Sandra Dodd: MEET their needs.

Sandra Dodd: It might not seem like a balance.

Sandra Dodd: One might need much more than another some days, or weeks. One might need much more than another for a whole lifetime, and what are you going to do? Ration yourself by the hour?

Sandra Dodd: Give a child a full hour who doesn't even WANT you there, just because another child had an uninterrupted hour?

Jill Parmer joined the chat

Sylvia Woodman: ==-==Ration yourself by the hour==-== Sometimes I come watch Harry play minecraft for 15 minutes and then go sit with Gabriella for 15 minutes and then go back...

Sylvia Woodman: (when I can't persuade them to be in the same room)

Sandra Dodd: This chart is one of the best things I ever came up with.

Sandra Dodd: http://sandradodd.com/howto/

Sandra Dodd: Here, printable: http://s26.photobucket.com/user/SandraDodd/media/website%20various%20bits/hoursgraph.gif.html

Alison: Was she comparing the needs of one child to the other? Or the needs of the children, with her own abundance of what she can give them?

Bernadette joined the chat 

JennyC: Oh, yes, sometimes one kid will always feel like they need more! That's been the case here at our house!

Sandra Dodd: Doesn't matter, Alison. Don't go back, go forward.

Sandra Dodd: Bring ideas that might help any parent with ANY such concerns.

Bernadette: If you have a computer you could sit with one child while playing minecraft with the other one.

AlexPolikowsky4: Gigi wants food and drinks all day while she is busy and to talk and talk to me when she comes to bed. Both my kids need me to give them attention, total attention, when they want to tell me what they are doing.

JennyC: What helped, was spending as much time as humanly possible with the child that felt the most needing of my attention!

AlexPolikowsky4: They also love to do things with each other and are happy to do it without me.

Lisa C: Yes. My attitude change helped a TON. I have never seen balance quite like that, like equal time. I mean, even if I strictly followed your 'how to', one is older and 'needs less' of me.  But I see what you're saying. If I am looking at them, and paying attention, focused on them, it is often very clear who needs me when and how much, and I can do it. Sometimes they both need me at the same time, in different capacities. Like they both want to cuddle, but neither wants the other one there. ... But I think, even taking preventative measures -- not making them beggars, like you said, might be the key to avoiding that. When they're both happy and content, they're happy to be together, with me.

AlexPolikowsky4: For Gigi it is important to sleep with me too.

JennyC: It helped, for me, that the needy child was the youngest, so I could talk to the older one and she could be a help. I drew her into the world of helping her little sister.

AlexPolikowsky4: Sometimes the oldest will need more of you than the youngest. 

JennyC: After all, we were all home together, and what benefited one child, most definitely would benefit the other, even if it was in a round about way.

Lisa C: Part of what they are coping with, is recovering from a very real lack of me. Because my attitude was that there wasn't enough of me to go around. I felt overwhelmed and unavailable, and so there was scarcity. They are still learning to trust me, and I am still learning to be trustworthy.

AlexPolikowsky4: There is also the languages of love. Some people/kids feel loved if they get a lot of physical touch, others feel it in different ways and of course a mix.

Capn Franko: Gotta go. Y'all have fun. See ya later.

JennyC: Bye Frank!

JennyC: The good news Lisa, is that kids recover these things quickly if they know without a doubt they are priority!

JennyC: I was completely unavailable for most of the summer and it was a hard transition for my kids, but they got through it all quite graciously and are now on the other side of it.

Alison: Taking a breath and focusing with all your heart, even for just one breath, with eye contact preferably, can go a long way to letting the child know they are a priority, in this moment.

Lisa C: Maybe focusing on not creating a deficit. Build up the bank, so to speak. And keep it full. They each need a different amount. I definitely think there is a lot of room for me to be more proactive, to do better about meeting needs before they become intense and uncomfortable. Alison, I love that.

Lisa C: Need to step away for a bit again

JennyC: They are much older than yours, but kids KNOW when they are priority and when they aren't, at any age.

Alison: I've also found it really important to consistently do the very brief things that replenish me. It's not finding an hour or three for mom-time, all together, that helps me have an abundance of energy for my chidren, so much as very short 30 seconds or less rituals that replenish me.

Alison: (whether that's putting on lipstick or saying a morning prayer, whatever. The quick things keep us going.)

AlexPolikowsky4: When overwhelmed, take deep breaths, more deep breaths, keep calm. Don't add to the distress by being distressed yourself. They need momma to be calm. The more I was able to do this the better things went. Everytime.

JennyC: Yes, me too Alex! So much!

AlexPolikowsky4: Even now 

JennyC: Yes, even now!

Lisa C: Yeah I've gotten good at quick check in's with myself. It's usually a bite of chocolate, or a meal. really though, I never used to believe this could be true, but often, when I'm really focused on my kids and flowing with their energy, I'm at a place of joy and peace and that is rejuvenating. I used to really feel like mom alone time was absolutely necessary. And I still like to play minecraft alone, after they're in bed.  But I 'need' it less and less and sometimes not at all.

AlexPolikowsky4: Listen more when they are distressed than talk. Sometimes parents want to talk their kids into calm and that is probably not going to happen. Listen, hug them, keep calm. Act on the needs and to help, solve, or remove them from a bad situation.

Sandra Dodd: More of that first long Lisa C quote: "My older child is often loud, and rowdy, and outgoing, and my little one is often shy, and quiet. They are both very sensitive. My little one often pulls me away from the room my older child is in, to play in a different room, quietly. He likes quiet focus, and my older one likes me to be loud and rowdy with him. I sometimes have days where we achieve a great balance."

JennyC: Sometimes I find myself all alone now and I don't quite know what to do! So, I go and check in with my kids and see all their happy doings!

Sandra Dodd: Instead of balance, maybe think "peace."

Sandra Dodd: Some days their needs were met. 

Sandra Dodd: The rest of it: "It HELPS a lot when I stay focused on them and don't think about housework and being on the computer and such until later, when it's obvious they've both had their fill. But sometimes it's really hard to meet both their needs, and when theyre both needing opposite things at the same time. The other thing too, is that my 2 yr old still nurses often, and when he was little it was easy to get up and do things for and with my older son, holding the nursing one in one arm. He's 30 pounds now and I'm 5'2 and it's no longer very possible to do that. That frustrates my older one a lot."

AlexPolikowsky4: Nothing like happy days when kids are feeling good and happy, their needs are met and all is so peaceful! Or the fun days too!

Sandra Dodd: I already mentioned that every child gets too big, and it's sad for them all, and sad for the mom every time (unless she rejected them earlier and the bonds were broken sooner).

JennyC: That's interesting, Sandra! Balance brings a visual of someone in the middle of a teeter totter, with kids on either end, but it's a lot of work and you are never able to quite reach either one. But peace, that feels different, entirely!

Sandra Dodd: When they need opposite things at the same time, it might help to hold one (at least hold hands with one) and swing him back and forth, wag back and forth, while talking to the other. One can have you verbally while the other has you physically, even if they're bigger. You could be holding hands with one, or rubbing her back or brushing her hair while talking or singing or lauging with another one.

Jill Parmer: Read back through the chat.... Melissa, I think you might not be seeing something about your home and kids. I've met them all and played with them. They are very lively, vivacious and engaging.

Sandra Dodd: Balance is fragile, too.

heatherbooth: Austin is on a up late at night and sleeping most of the day schedule right now. When this happens it's hard on me because I can feel disconnected from him, so I make extra effort to be with him and hang out together while we are both awake. Last night it looked like both of us on the couch in the dark on our idevices. I was reading and he was watching YouTube videos. Somewhere in there he came over and we watched videos together. It filled my need for connection. I'm sure it did for him too.

Sylvia Woodman: That is so sweet!

Marta Pires: Sweet, Heather.

Jill Parmer: And maybe help Joe do something or feel better about his time off. Sounds like he has too much time and his thoughts are getting negative.

MelissaYatzeck: Thanks, Jill.

Alison: Peace can also include acceptance of what is. In this case, acceptance of the children's sibling relationship, and also the effect one child has on the other's environment and experience.

AlexPolikowsky4: Yes Heather! I do that when my son is on the night schedule. I spend time with him when he is awake. He will actually call me in the morning to stay with him after 7:30 AM or so if he gets up and I am already sleeping. 

Sandra Dodd: Yes. Balance seems measurable, and visual, and these interrelationships and needs can be so subtle we can't see or measure them at all.

MelissaYatzeck: I've been running back and forth between this chat and fixing food and helping download new minecraft mods and such. I like your chart, Sandra. Things go more smoothly when I make "kid time" a bigger priority.

AlexPolikowsky4: Melissa what Jill said ^^^ Your kids are pretty awesome and lively!

Serah: I'm out. Nice chatting with you all.

Sandra Dodd: Bye, Serah!
Sandra Dodd: So now I'll say the thing that might make people mad. Twice in the past I've said something and twice people have gotten really pissed off at me.

Sandra Dodd: How many kids are too many, for unschooling?

AlexPolikowsky4: Bye!

Sandra Dodd: Serious question.

Sandra Dodd: What are the factors?

MelissaYatzeck: That is a serious question.

JennyC: When there aren't enough resources?

Sandra Dodd: It's sometimes complicated by people thinking of unschooling in terms of their "rights" or what their children "deserve" or other terminology that confuses the issue entirely.

MelissaYatzeck: I read about lots of cool things people do with only 1-2 kids, and feel guilty sometimes because I don't see how I can do those things with all my kids.

Sandra Dodd: But there are moms who have one and who desperately wanted more.

Sandra Dodd: Some moms have an only child and grief.

Sandra Dodd: Or longing.

Sandra Dodd: So it's not a simple formula. There are factors.

AlexPolikowsky4: I think it depends Sandra, but I don't think I could have had a boat load of kids.

JennyC: That's true for moms who have 4 and really wanted 5!

AlexPolikowsky4: Meaning 6, 7, 8 or more.

Sandra Dodd: Alex, if you were Mormon or conservative Catholic or belonged to the Church of the New Jerusalem, you probably would have had more than two.

JennyC: I was thinking the same, Sandra!

Sandra Dodd: Keith and I probably would have had more if we had started earlier.

Sandra Dodd: For some moms, one child is more than they can handle.

JennyC: I might have had more if we'd been more financially secure!

MelissaYatzeck: Yes, I think the parents themselves is a big factor.

Sandra Dodd: If the mom has crippling personal issues or mental health problems, one is too many.

JennyC: Ohhh, I completely agree with that!

Jill Parmer: Maybe a mom's attitude can be in the "resource" category. Does she have enough umph to be creative and help the kids get along, and help them be engaged and find small simple ways to "connect one on one".

Lisa C: <<Balance brings a visual of a someone in the middle of a teeter totter, with kids on either end, but it's a lot of work and you are never able to quite reach either one. But peace, that feels different, entirely!>​>​ THIS really helped. I'm still learning what balance is, and this helped me see what it's not. 

Marta Pires: Yes, Sandra.

Alison: Yes, and I think the flip side of that is that with sufficient support, there's no upper limit.

Sandra Dodd: When moms come by and say "I'm a single mom of three, and…" my first thought is "put them in school and get a job." It's not a generous thought, perhaps, but I don't like to think of the children living in poverty, feeling inferior, reliant on their mom for EVERYthing.

Sandra Dodd: Okay, Alison. Let's look at your "no upper limit."

Sylvia Woodman: ==-==with sufficient support, there's no upper limit==-== I don't think that is true!!!

Sandra Dodd: The largest family I know personally has eight kids. Lori Odhner's. Religious reasons. Twins, and one severely autistic.

MelissaYatzeck: Yes, Jill, that's the idea I was getting at when I said the parents were a factor.

MelissaYatzeck: I think she has nine though? In a recent Marriage Moat I think she said 9.

Sandra Dodd: The largest small family I new growing up had eight kids. Eight kids in five births; three sets of twins. Two sets of twins were born ten months apart.

JennyC: Ugh, I think of the Duggers.

Sandra Dodd: Okay, nine.  I didn't want to exaggerate. She and her husband were from families of 10 and 12.

AlexPolikowsky4: Maybe, but I started late.  But seriously more kids will depend on the parent. Some moms can handle 1 or 3 fine. Some cannot. Some can handle more. More resources makes it a lot easier for sure. No money and many kids and someone who is always distressed is not a good combination.

Someone calm and nurturing with resources and tons of patient and dedication can make it seem very easy. So many things can make a difference.

JennyC: Upper limit... What IS their upper limit?

Sandra Dodd: Thanks for knowing that, Melissa.

Jill Parmer: What is sufficient support? Hiring a pseudo mom for each kid or pair of kids? Let's say you have enough money to do that. What about that feeling of wanting to be with mommy? I don't think any amount of money could fill that.

Sandra Dodd: So they started off unschooling, but because of John's job as a minister for a while of a church that had a school, Lori got involved with the school, and when the difficult kids came along, and they were back in their home town, school was the default, and Lori ended up working at the school.

Lisa C: I think the more kids there are, the less each gets of the parent. So, less is more. And maybe that's less helpful for a family that already has lots of kids. But then maybe that's where acceptance comes in. Accept what is and find peace, abundance. But, if you're like me, and reading about unschooling with very young children, only two... well, let's say a year ago I really wanted a third. Now I feel like two is just right. And maybe a puppy down the road. Definitely a cat.

MelissaYatzeck: I grew up as the oldest in a family of 7.

Sandra Dodd: That family with the eight kids, the mom was a substitute. I knew (they were in my classroom) the third set of twins (the ones born after their older twin siblings less than a year older).

Lisa C: I was the oldest of 6.

MelissaYatzeck: No twins, and all of us born within a 10 year span.

Sylvia Woodman: The thing with the Duggers is that they are not unschooling and they are fine with the older teens raising the younger kids. Their older kids seem to be fine and sometimes somewhat impressive. I'm betting that the younger kids who don't have as much adult involvement won't be as impressive.

Sandra Dodd: Those kids were dull-eyed. They were 12 and looked like they just got to the planet sometimes. That was too many kids for those parents to handle.

Sandra Dodd: The largest family I've known of (I knew one kid) was a wraparound. 20 kids, but #20 was the offspring of #1, and then there were no more.

Sandra Dodd: They lived in a four room house.

MelissaYatzeck: 7 kids in my family, so a family of 9 is more accurate.

AlexPolikowsky4: Money can buy more computers, more toys, bigger homes, pay for a mother's helper, pay for someone to clean and cook and do all housework so mom can just be a mom with the kids. No worries about groceries, you can hire someone to shop for you or pay for delivery or other ways to make life easier!

Sandra Dodd: The dad was a teacher.

JennyC: The largest families I've known, have all been Mormon. There is a lot of support within the church.

Lisa C: Yeah, more money is a big one if there are going to be more kids. Still, there's only so much of one Mother. BUT a lot of close relationships and other adults in kid's lives might help too, if there are a lot of kids.

Sandra Dodd: In a classroom, 25 is the general number people think of. Fifteen is considered a luxuriously small number. Some developing countries 40, 50 in a classroom.

Lisa C: I don't think kids would ever see 15 to one as a luxury, even if they're told it's one. 

JennyC: Right Lisa!

MelissaYatzeck: Yes, I think it can help to remember that at school kids get even less attention. Here at our house it is 1 adult for 3 kids, most of the time.

AlexPolikowsky4: Great point!

Alison: By sufficient resources, I meant a sky is the limit dream sort of thing with an intentional community, grandparents, friends and extended family, with a utopia-like merging of a family's unschooling parenting style and an organic free-school village. Not something I've actually seen. Just something to imagine.

JennyC: But if you have 15 kids at home, it's a 15 to 1 ratio, assuming all the kids stay put in one room!

Lisa C: I know an unschooling mom who has three, and her oldest was saying, mom, I wish we did more together, just you and me. And her answer was, we do! We're tag teaming the younger two together all day! He got a thoughtful look and said, yeah, you're right. .... I heard that story from the mom, and knowing her son, I couldn't help but feel that it wasn't the answer he was hoping for.

Jill Parmer: My mom had 19 siblings, a couple were step kids, one was a half brother. The older ones raised the younger ones. Don't know if any of the kids got motherly or fatherly love. By the time my mom was 3 her mom was dead, and her father was living in a nearby house with the 2nd wife.

AlexPolikowsky4: Alison that maybe your utopia but definitely not mine. I do like when my mom comes and helps out by just being with the kids and doing stuff with them but I would absolutely hate living in an intentional community organic free-school village. Sorry. I like my nuclear family. Just not my cup of tea.

Sandra Dodd: My grandmother was raising younger siblings on a ranch in souther New Mexico. Her older sister left with the first man who came along, to get out of that situation. I think my grandmother left with the second one. 

Sylvia Woodman: My first LLL leader came from a famiy like that Jill!

Lisa C: And, utopias are really fun to imagine, but impossible to live in.

Sandra Dodd: The dad and his brother and remaining six kids went back to Texas where the other relatives were. That was an early-New-Mexico statehood story. New Mexico needed more English-speaking families to become a state, and Texans were recruited to move here. But the mom died of "childbirth fever" (an infection; she lived a year after #8, a boy).

Sandra Dodd: SO...

Sandra Dodd: We could all think of extreme situations.

Sandra Dodd: Assuming a family has enough beds and food and space, then what?

Jill Parmer: Alex, it is possible Brian might know some of my relatives. My grandpa was a dairy farmer in Kent, MN. And some of my cousins still are. 

Sandra Dodd: Eliminate mental illness and poverty for the moment.

AlexPolikowsky4: He may Jill!

Sandra Dodd: Deschooling helps.

Sandra Dodd: The better the parents understand how unschooling can, should work, the better it will work, no matter how many kids there are.

Alison: What is deschooling in that context?

Sandra Dodd: The same as in any context.

Jill Parmer: Then you might go by how much a child needs of a parent, and how helpful and peaceful a parent can make the household.

Sandra Dodd: Recovery from the messages that school has inserted about what is right and necessary.

JennyC: I have a childless friend, I'll premise it with that, whose brother has 8 kids. They are poor and they homeschool. The dad just announced that he was going to go back to school and get a degree in vet med. My friend said to me, "when will it be the kid's turn I wonder?"

Lisa C: I can imagine 3 or 4 being unschooled comfortably, if the dad or partner is involved, or at least one other supportive, close adult. More than that is hard for me to imagine all the kids getting enough.

Sandra Dodd: If the dad does well with veterinary medicine, all the kids might have jobs. 

Lisa C: You could make another ratio chart-- for every 'x' number of kids, there should be another supportive, highly involved adult.

Sandra Dodd: Sadie, an unschooled friend of ours, just got accepted to a veterinary school in Kansas.  She worked for vets in two towns, when she was 20ish.

Sandra Dodd: It can depend on the personalities of the kids, too.

Lisa C: Yes.

Sandra Dodd: And as in the peaceful rats studies, a good physical environment WILL make a difference.

Sandra Dodd: A difference in learning, and health and personal relaxation. Without feeling safe, learning doesn't happen (says Maslow; I believe it).

Sandra Dodd: No matter how many people are in it, a house can be too small.

Sandra Dodd: And some people can live in a smaller space than others can.

JennyC: I considered that too! But from her point of view, my friend, the oldest just turned 18 and is wanting to go to college but is now being put on a back burner so her dad can go.

Sandra Dodd: My collections and souvenirs and papers and books make those tiny houses and efficieny trailers look USELESS, but some people can live in a tent, in a cave, in a monk's cell.

Sandra Dodd: Your childless friend should help her.

Sandra Dodd: The dad can probably do more by getting a vet degree than by helping one or two go to college.

Sandra Dodd: He would be able to help more of them in the long run.

Sandra Dodd: And if there's poverty, there will be grants and such. Your friend should help with that.

Sandra Dodd: Lisa, the chart wouldn't work, if I predicted how many adults are needed.

Lisa C: (and an 18 yr old has more time to spend on a back burner than a man in his 40's or 50's might have). But the back burner is probably not a place that feels good.

Jill Parmer: If we put a number of people in the peaceful rat scenario, do you think there is the factor of wanting to be with mom? And there is a number at which it is too many?

Sandra Dodd: She would've been the same if she had been in school, so that's not really a factor is it? "The back burner" of an 18 year old? She's off the stove now, in a way.

Lisa C: (I was kidding about the chart. There are too many variables besides x= # of kids, y= # of adults)

Jill Parmer: Maybe if a mom spaced out her kids 4? 5? 6? years, then a limiting factor might be a mom's ability to procreate.

Sandra Dodd: We're still helping Holly. We would be able to help any of our kids, and they're trying not to need it.

Sandra Dodd: Rats get over their moms in a few weeks, I think. 

Jill Parmer: So, when a kid gets over his mom?

Sandra Dodd: DEFINITELY too crowded was part of the formula for the peaceful rat tests. Space to spread out and availabilit of food.

Sandra Dodd: In the case of unschoolers, the mom is committing to "be the school" to her child until he's 18, pretty much, don't you think?

Sandra Dodd: Parents are saying they will provide what the government schools are designed to provide.

Sandra Dodd: I have no patience for people who like to think that "just being home" is better than any school. The worst homeschooling is NOT better than the best schooling.

BeaMantovani joined the chat

Marta Pires: Learning about unschooling and peaceful parenting with all of you definitely helped me think about having children and spacing them (I've always wanted more than one). 

Sandra Dodd: Hey, Bea.  It must be 7:00 in the morning in Australia! 

MelissaYatzeck: Yes, I know some homeschoolers who think that 'just being home' is better. It is frustrating.

BeaMantovani: No, it's 8am in Sydney. I am confused about what time it is where you guys are, but thought I might catch some of the chat.

Sylvia Woodman: Or that unschooling is 'doing nothing.'

Robin B.: Hi Bea!

Sylvia Woodman: Or the perfect opportunity for the Mom to explore her own interests while leaving the kids to do whatever.....

BeaMantovani: Hi everybody!!! 

Jill Parmer: The 'just being home' strikes me as fear of school, so they are going to keep the kids away from that, but not be attentive??

Lisa C: Marta, me too. With my second, I followed all the advice I'd gotten about spacing kids close together to get all the 'baby stuff over with quickly,' and closer in age meant they'd play together more (so mom could pay less attention?) - either way, it wasn't what was good for me. Or my first. And I'm no longer wistfully hoping for a third. I want to make sure there's enough for two, and for their dad, and me, first.

MelissaYatzeck: Yes, Sylvia!

Alison: Thanks everybody. I'm off.

Sandra Dodd: Bye, Alison.

Sandra Dodd: Bea, we're two minutes to the end.

Marta Pires: Yes, Lisa.

Sandra Dodd: Five

Sandra Dodd: Four.

Sandra Dodd: A few minutes to the end.

BeaMantovani: That's what I figured, oh well... maybe I'll try to wake up at 6am next time. 

Marta Pires: And what a great chat it has been!

Sandra Dodd: Unschooling isn't automatic and it doesn't "do itself." 

heatherbooth: Is there a topic for next week?

Sara Vaz: Indeed, Marta!

Sylvia Woodman: I mean, even while I've been on this chat I keep breaking away to make food for kids, answer questions, spell things for them, help them find stuff on YouTube, help them get their snow stuff together so they can go sledding....

Marta Pires: 

JennyC: Very very true!

Sandra Dodd: The mom needs to ease into it, learn it, BE with it. Live in it.

AlexPolikowsky4: Hi Bea downunder!!!!!!!

Jill Parmer: I think it's homeschoolers who call unschooling 'doing nothing', because they see an ease about the people unschooling. They don't even have a clue all the thought and effort that goes into it.

Marta Pires: Same here, Sylvia. 

Sandra Dodd: Socialization is next week's topic.

JennyC: Unschooling is ACTIVE!

JennyC: Proactive!

Sandra Dodd: It probably helps for a baby to be born into an unschooling family, as to "how many is too many."

Sandra Dodd: So Melissa, Serah… those babies will ease in.

Robin B.: I think some people think "effort" means "teaching." So they don't do anything.

Sandra Dodd: Holly was born after I was already unschooling.

Sandra Dodd: That's probably true, Robin.

Sandra Dodd: Some people aren't bright.

Jill Parmer: Yeah, Robin

Sandra Dodd: Or analytical.

MelissaYatzeck: Well, thanks everybody! This has been really helpful! When I voice concerns like this to local friends, I only hear back, "You are a great mom and you are doing a great job," or advice about sending the kids to school or at least enrolling them in more academic stuff.

Sandra Dodd: When they are wounded, and won't deschool because the word "school" is in there, uschooling will always be stunted for them.

Lisa C: I hate when I hear that from homeschoolers- 'well, anything is better than school!' No it's not! I don't think I'd have survived my childhood intact if it hadn't been for escaping to school. On the flip side, the one and only conversation I had with my MIL about homeschooling, her thought was, "well, any school is better than them staying home with you."

Robin B.: Well, that's for sure. Unschooling lately is attracting more of those not-so-bright folks, unfortunately.

Sandra Dodd: Eventually, unschooling might be illegal or much more examined because of such families.

Jill Parmer: Wish I was in the market to be a mother's helper. I'd move in next to you, Melissa!

Sandra Dodd: Melissa, maybe just ask Joe to wait another year, and in that time, sparkle it up. 

MelissaYatzeck: Maybe I will write that in large letters across my fridge. "SPARKLE IT UP!"

Robin B.: Yes.

AlexPolikowsky4: Melissa, your kids are great. Look at them. Are they healthy, peaceful, sparkly (Melissa's kids are very sparkly), engaged, connected, happy, learning (but not necessarily in school learning)?

Robin B.: to the illegal thing.

Sandra Dodd: There are dull, ignorant public school teachers, too, but kids only get one or two of them, usually.

Sandra Dodd: Melissa, do not put it on your fridge.

MelissaYatzeck: Maybe I will move next you, Jill!

Sandra Dodd: Put it in your heart.

Sandra Dodd: Put it in your decisions, and principles.

JennyC: Maybe a home screen back ground on your laptop!

Sandra Dodd: Choose sparkly over dull.

Jill Parmer: 

Sandra Dodd: Do it more and more until it's the default.

AlexPolikowsky4: Maybe bring more things connected to what they like in!

Minecraft papercrafts to do are super fun! Even my oldest liked them!

Sandra Dodd: If you tell Joe you're going to make your life seem more sparkly, it will seem temporary, desperate, manipulative.

Sandra Dodd: Just do it, gradually, until it's easier and more natural.

Jill Parmer: Melissa, maybe do the moment thing. One tiny little sparkle at a time, and before you know it, it's grown large and sparklerish!

Sandra Dodd: My fingers are tired.

Lisa C: Thank you everyone, so so much.

Robin B.: 

Marta Pires: Thank you Sandra, for another great chat!

Jill Parmer: Thanks, All. See ya later.

AlexPolikowsky4: Thank you all.

JennyC: ihascupquake youtube videos on minecraft.... and then she does other things too, those have led to all kinds of projects at our house!

Jill Parmer left the chat

Sandra Dodd: Thanks for being here, everybody!

Robin B.: I always learn something new here. And when Senna is awake, we discuss what's in the chat.

JennyC: Thanks for hosting!

AlexPolikowsky4: Ihazcupquake is awesome! Gigi loves her too.

Sandra Dodd: I'll put in the photo of Melissa's pregnancy announcement. 

Marta Pires: 

MelissaYatzeck: I feel more sparkly now. More energized than I have been in the last couple of weeks!

Sandra Dodd: And links to those minecraft things, maybe.

AlexPolikowsky4: Good! 

Sandra Dodd: Melissa, it will fade, so change a few things while the inspiration is still flowing in you. 

Sandra Dodd: I think in a happy, healthy unschooling family six or eight kids wouldn't be too many.

AlexPolikowsky4: It is winter too, Melissa. It has been really cold. Find some cool cold weather stuff to do. Freeze some things outside. Make snow paint. Throw boiling water when it gets really cold tonight.

Sandra Dodd: With two parents, enough room, friends, ideas, activities, places to go and the means to get there…. could be good!

Sandra Dodd: Winter ideas from Deb Lewis

Sandra Dodd: http://sandradodd.com/strew/deblist

MelissaYatzeck: We did the boiling water thing during the first polar vortex! It was cool. We dyed the water with food coloring.

JennyC: Take advantage of the abundance you have right now!

AlexPolikowsky4: Do you have a bird feeder? Great time to have one and feed the birds in front of a window and watch them. Try to figure out what kind of birds they are.

MelissaYatzeck: We have an empty bird feeder. It would be fun to fill it up and put it where we can see it.

Sandra Dodd: Photograph them for me to use for Just Add Light.

AlexPolikowsky4: I love my birds! So much fun watching them and I know you do not have pets so that will be something fun, sparkly and year round, awesome for winter.

AlexPolikowsky4: You have to have it full all the time or birds will move on to look for a better place!

Marta Pires: Gotta go!

Sandra Dodd: Ice in the bathtub can be fun. SNOW in the bathtub. Snowballs. 

Marta Pires: Bye everyone!

Sandra Dodd: Bye, Marta

Robin B.: Bye Marta.

Lisa C: Bye!

MelissaYatzeck: Bye

Lisa C left the chat

JennyC: Or snowcones!

Robin B.: I think I have a snowball in the freezer from last year!

AlexPolikowsky4: Yes, photos. Have the kids take photos around the house, A little flip camera and make movies with the kids. They can make movies of their plush animals!

AlexPolikowsky4: Snowcones are fun!!!!

BeaMantovani: Do you have chickadees in Minnesota? We love handfeeding them in the winter (in Quebec).

Sylvia Woodman: Or snow ice cream.

Bernadette left the chat

AlexPolikowsky4: Yes we do. 

heatherbooth: You could also set up a bird habitat. Leaves and twigs and old wood if you have any piled up for bugs to go. You'll get more birds year after year if they know you have a food source.

heatherbooth: Thanks for the chat y'all! See you next week. 

AlexPolikowsky4: They are not big around my house because they like closer to town. I have a lot of house sparrows, I have cardinals, blue jays and a couple other ones I cannot remember now the names but have pictures on my FB

Robin B.: Bye Heather!

Sylvia Woodman: Make a bird feeder with peanutbutter or suet and birdseed...

AlexPolikowsky4: Birds love hair in the Spring for their nest. Used to be awesome when I gave the pony a hair cut. Birds went crazy for the hair!

Sylvia Woodman: Or in our case a squirrel feeder....

Sandra Dodd: I throw my hair outside in spring and summer.

Sandra Dodd: When I clean my brush.

AlexPolikowsky4: Backyard fires are fun too!

Sandra Dodd: I've seen it later in nests that fall in winter.

Robin B.: We have chickadees (black-capped and chestnut), towhees, juncos, Stellar's jays, nuthatches, and variegated thrushes. Sometimes woodpeckers and flickers.

Sara Vaz: Thanks everyone! Bye!

Sylvia Woodman: That's cool Sandra!

JennyC: We left a stuffed animal lion in a tree at our house. It's lived there for years. The birds have started pulling stuffing out of it!

Sandra Dodd: Bye, Sara.

AlexPolikowsky4: YES Sandra! I have thrown Daniel's hair outside next to the tree for the birds!

Robin B.: Good idea! I've been losing a lot of hair lately. It will be useful.

Sandra Dodd: I've seen some of our cats' hair in birds' nests, too.

AlexPolikowsky4: We do get the nuthatches! Cool birds going up and down the tree on the side. FUNNY!

Robin B.: I know!

Robin B.: They're fast!

AlexPolikowsky4: They also like undercoat of dogs when they shed in the spring! Makes for a good nest filling!

AlexPolikowsky4: Cool Jenny!

AlexPolikowsky4: Sometimes one just needs a little get up in the winter. It can be brutal up here. I definitely get winter blues.

Robin B.: Bye everyone.

Robin B. left the chat 

JennyC: Bye all!

JennyC left the chat 

BeaMantovani: Bye... I'm still catching up on the beginning of the chat, and then I'll go and make breakfast 

Sylvia Woodman: Ok, off to clean the kitchen up and get started on dinner!

MelissaYatzeck: Bye