Sandra's notes for today's chat:
"Wednesday, February 26 chat will be on things we learned because of our kids–through their interests, or from things they knew that we didn't! Not the esoteric stuff like "how to love." The practical things, like Flight of the Conchords or Minecraft or how to make a whistle out of grass.
Here's a page I've started to store the good stuff, and if anyone has a story who can't come to the chat, you could just mail it to me. A response to this e-mail comes to my mail, I think.
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Sandra Dodd joined the chat
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Capn Franko joined the chat
Sandra Dodd: Marta, thanks (again!) for clearing the room up (again).
Marta Pires: You're welcome! 
Marta Pires: I'm happy to be able to help!
Sandra Dodd: I have the rest of today, all day Thursday, and then I go to Australia.
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Sandra Dodd: When I'm leaving for a trip I get all strangely agitated.
Marta Pires: Me too!
Marta Pires: Do you have everything packed already?
Sandra Dodd: Piled, not packed.
Sandra Dodd: (some packed)
Robin B.: Australia! I just thought of that Monty Python sketch about the Australian University of Wooloomooloo.
Sandra Dodd: I don't love the kind of logistics involved in what I take from Schuyler's on the little tour internally.
Jill Parmer: That is me too. But I've got it down to feeling agitated for a few days; it used to be a solid week.
Sandra Dodd: Sub-trips stress me, but when I GET to the place, I'm not at all agitated. As soon as I see Schuyler in the airport, that's going to be all peaceful and nice for a long time.
Robin B.: Yup. Me, as well.
Virginia Warren: Bruces' Philosophers Song!
Robin B.: Yes!!
Robin B.: G'day Bruce! G'Day Bruce!
Marta Pires: You're going to have a blast, Sandra!
Robin B.: I really love the parts of Australia I've been to visit.
Robin B.: Melbourne, especially.
Marta Pires: How long will it take you to get to Australia?
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Sandra Dodd: I leave Albuquerque just after noon on Friday here.
Sandra Dodd: When I get to the airport nearest Schuyler, it will be 9:30 Sunday morning.
Sandra Dodd: Partly it's hours lost, partly it's sitting in airports.
Misa Knight joined the chat
Sandra Dodd: We have over ten people. Nice!
Robin B.: Given the time change/date line crossing, that still doesn't tell us how many hours.
Robin B.: If anyone wanted to know.
Robin B.: If anyone wanted to know.
Sandra Dodd: So the topic is about what we've learned from our children. Not the mushy esoteric stuff (though of course that's some of the biggest life-lesson maturation philosophical boost ANYwhere—I learned how much I could love another human being, and all that), but things they knew that you didn't know, and knowledge travelled the other direction.
Sandra Dodd: How many hours in the transatlantic flight or how many hours between Keith lets me out and Schuyler retrieves me?
Sandra Dodd: I think that 9:30 a.m. at Schuyler's is 4:30 p.m Saturday here.
Sandra Dodd: If so (I'll go check) then 30 hours or so.
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Marta Pires: Hehe, I was just wondering when Sandra would get there, because I kind of knew it would take a bit.
Sandra Dodd: If so (I'll go check) then 30 hours or so.
Robin B.: Marta? What did you want to know?
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Marta Pires: Hehe, I was just wondering when Sandra would get there, because I kind of knew it would take a bit.
Marta Pires: I was just telling Bruno yesterday that it would take a while because he was looking at the globe to see where you would go through -- the Pacific Ocean or the other way around.
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Robin B.: I learned how to play Pokemon on a Nintendo DS.
Misa Knight: I knew how to play Pokemon, but I now know a lot about Pokemon (the creatures) and a good number of things about what they become as they evolve.
Virginia Warren: My Lydia is a Pokedex.
Robin B.: Yes, Misa. We also played (and sometimes still play) the alphabet game (name something that starts with A, then name something that starts with the last letter of that word) with Pokemon. I learned lots of names!
ChrisSanders: This is a little embarrassing but, I learned about mythology when my son was interested -- and I really hadn't understood what myths were before that. That realization informed a major shift and solidification in my personal religious and spiritual beliefs.
ErinElizabeth: I've learned the correct names for a whole host of construction equipment (my son is 3), he makes sure to correct me if I'm too generic or get one wrong.
Robin B.: And the evolutions. And the shiny Pokemon.
Sandra Dodd: Nice, Chris.
Still, he was the catalyst and not the "informant"?Virginia Warren: Lydia instroduced us to an amazing YouTube channel, VSauce.
ChrisSanders: Both in the beginning.
Misa Knight: That's a great idea, Robin. I bet Kai would get a kick out of that.
Jill Parmer: Video game mechanics and actions. Fashion/style details.
Robin B.: ErinElizabeth, maybe think of him as helping you.
Robin B.: How to create a costume from looking at videogame art.
Sandra Dodd: When Marty was 14 or so we were in a bookstore and there was a rack of those plastic study sheets for college courses. One was Greek mythology. Marty picked it up, scanned it, and said "This isn't true—his mother was…" and named another person. I said maybe there were two versions. And there could easily be. That happens with mythology, whether Arthur was or wasn't the father of Mordred and such. But the sheet didn't say "or others say…"
Jill Parmer: Anime storytelling, plot, archetypes.
ErinElizabeth: He is very helpful, he's encouraging me to be much more accurate in my word choice, something his daddy appreciates too. I've always been "close is good enough, you know what I mean" kinda speaker.
Virginia Warren: Maybe this is in the wrong category, but I learned someone can learn to ride a bike practically overnight, when they're ready.
Sandra Dodd: From Marty and Holly I learned lots of tricks for using Photoshop Elements (a "home version" of Photoshop). Holly showed me some html codes she learned when she was doing other people's myspace art for them.
Robin B.: I think I did that (learned to ride a bike when I was ready) but didn't remember. Senna did that.
heatherbooth: I thought I could stay in the chat today, but I am sneezing every couple secconds. I'm going to go take a steamy shower. I look forward to reading what you all learned from your kids
Sandra Dodd: That's the other kind of learning, Virginia.
Sandra Dodd: I hope you feel better, Heather.
Sandra Dodd: Learning about learning is part of deschooling, and parenting.
ChrisSanders: Zach has shared a lot of knowledge regarding the German language and it's grammatical structure with me. Are we talking learning from grown kids too?
Sandra Dodd: Sure, Chris.
Sandra Dodd: People assume they will teach their kids lots of things. Then they move on to knowing they don't need to teach, just help/assist/facilitate.
Jill Parmer: Oh yeah, computer keyboard shortcuts. Cell phone set up.
Misa Knight: I've learned a lot about cars. I didn't drive until the middle of the year last year (with a stint in Driver's Ed before that and one or two times practicing with my husband.) So I knew a lot less about cars than even most people! But both Kai and his dad are HUGE NASCAR fans, so I've learned a lot about NASCAR and cars in general.
Sandra Dodd: But there's that other area where the kids know things we don't know (and maybe could use knowing). By the time you get to that stage, confidence is easy to have, I think.
Marta Pires: Conchinha has managed to show us some cool playing moves on Mario games that we didn't know were possible.
ChrisSanders: While we were on vacation he shared with me a graphic novel called Maus, written by the son of a holocaust survivor. He was able to clarify a lot of the history and culture that came up in that book when I read it. We're going to read the 2nd book in the series now.
Misa Knight: Likewise, I've learned a lot about trains and various types of airplanes.
Robin B.: Tumblr.
Sara Vaz: I've learned how to make a Steve Head mask (minecraft) for my 6yo. Now I am trying a Diamond Sword!
Robin B.:
Robin B.: I know which sketchbooks are the best for pencil drawings and which digital drawing programs are really good.
Marta Pires: Conchinha is only 4 years old, I should add.
ChrisSanders: Both of my kids helped me immensely when I played World of Warcraft. Their understanding of the details is extremely useful.
Sandra Dodd: It's impressive, the way they learn games—video games, board games, field games, make-believe...
Misa Knight: Kai was really deeply interested in salmon last year. I live in Seattle, you'd think I'd know a lot about them. I knew of them as "food". Kai taught me about them as animals.
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ChrisSanders: Zach read Tom Sawyer to us while we were roadtripping recently. His understanding of the pre-civil war era in the US was helpful in deciphering some of the language and topics being discussed.
ChrisSanders: Neat, Misa.
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Sandra Dodd: My kids (especially Marty) have introduced me to music and movies I wouldn't have known about otherwise and that I really love.
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Sandra Dodd: As my kids learned to drive, they told me about New Mexico driving laws that had changed since I took driver's ed in the late 1960's.
Virginia Warren: I understand that, I had a really snotty attitude about pop music until my kids started loving it.
Sandra Dodd: And they've advised me about current quick-routes through Albuquerque.
ColleenP: Robbie knows more about mythology (Greek and Roman gods), history (he's been reading through a giant history encyclopedia lately, and absorbing every fact he can!!), and birds than I can keep in my head at one time - it's amazing and fun to see him sharing what he knows in such a happy way.
ChrisSanders: Zoe has given me more current perspectives on LGBTQ and feminist issues.
Robin B.: Senna showed me the site TV Tropes. I love it!
S1: I have gained an appreciation of the Star Wars movies that I had previously dismissed as boys stuff.
ColleenP: Last night, he was talking about Harry Potter, and he said "JK Rowlings went a little Shakespeare there, don't ya think??" and I asked what he meant - he said "you know - so many of the good characters DEAD by the end of the story!!" I hadn't made the connection - but he did!
ChrisSanders: I always struggled to analyze and compare/contrast literature on demand. I've noticed that my kids do so naturally.
Sandra Dodd: I want to say a general thing about all this. When I was a kid, 10 or so, my mom's youngest brother (who was probably 24, 25 at the time) asked me "What's the capital of South Dakota?" I said "I don't know, what is it?"
Sandra Dodd: He said "I don't have to know—I'm not in school."
ChrisSanders: Was he quizzing you? Or did he actually need to know for some reason?
Sandra Dodd: That moment is branded in my brain. We were at my granny's house—his mom's and he was still living there. I went and learned it when I got home, and haven't forgotten, though it will NEVER matter to me in any way whatsoever. It's trivia disguised as "knowledge." But the idea that there were things kids needed to know and adults didn't care anything about stayed with me.
I went and learned it when I got home, and haven't forgotten, though it will NEVER matter to me in any way whatsoever. It's trivia disguised as "knowledge." But the idea that there were things kids needed to know and adults didn't care anything about stayed with me.Sandra Dodd: It stayed with me when I was a student, and when I was a teacher.
Sandra Dodd: This morning I watched Dead Poet's Society. (I do that sometimes.) I thought about it then.
Marta Pires: I love that movie so much, Sandra.
Sandra Dodd: So when kids are in school the things they tell are "reports" of what they've learned in school, maybe, and awkward, and the parents don't need to know.
Marta Pires: I think I cry every time I see it, though.
Sandra Dodd: But the things you've all been reporting up above, those are something altogether different.
Sandra Dodd: (Marta, it gives another facet to "went a little Shakespeare" too, right?) Do you know that movie, Colleen?
Do you know that movie, Colleen?Laurie joined the chat
Marta Pires: Indeed it does.
Sandra Dodd: The things listed above are about knowledge shared out of joy and enthusiasm.
Misa Knight: I cry, too, Marta. Every. Single. Time.
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Marta Pires: It's a beautiful movie!
Sandra Dodd: What we have with children whose learning is growing without direction is new in the world, I think.
Sandra Dodd: There were people in the 18th and 19th centuries who learned that way—wealthy people who had servants and leisure to read and correspond and travel.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe some of them shared the information spontaneously with their spouses or children.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe some of them shared the information spontaneously with their spouses or children.
Bernadette: There were still expectations about what they'd learn, things you needed to know to be 'accomplished'.
Sandra Dodd: Yes.
Sandra Dodd: They had already learned Latin and geography.
Sandra Dodd: So they could name the plants and birds and lizards they were bringing home.
Sandra Dodd: Another fad—taxonomy, U.K., 19th century.
Sandra Dodd: And we memorize their "pokemon" terminology as "knowledge" now.
Sandra Dodd: Their "families" and made-up names for things.
ColleenP: Robbie just came and told me that Europe has greater, lesser, and middle spotted woodpeckers - I ordered him a Birds of Britain and Europe field guide that arrived via mail all the way from the UK today, and he's already reading through it and bursting out with new information he wants to share. Learning in the current world is way different than it's ever been - so cool!
Robin B.: And Pokemon are based on a child's love of insects.
Misa Knight: I think we're at a point where so much knowledge is available to them now without the HUGE cost of travel and such. Likewise, connection with people across the country or even the world is much easier. So, you don't have to have a friendly ear nearby. It could be an ear/eyes across the world.
Sandra Dodd: My college biology teacher said once that it was arbitrary, all that taxonomy. They went by skeletons, mostly, but they could have grouped by swimming / walking / flying and then separated it in different ways.
Sandra Dodd: So it's not "TRUTH," it's a model, an overlay.
Sandra Dodd: Colleen, I'm kind of bird-ignorant, but there are some interesting birds in the UK.
AnnieLou: Yes, so much of what we know as 'truth' is just the way that some people decided things would be organised.
Sandra Dodd: Outside Rippy's window, Starlings make patterns. Their dining room window is high, and looks out on the backs of lots of other houses, and tops of trees (I never thought to ask what's down there), and birds are in the air almost always.
Misa Knight: Yes! I used to have a teacher who said, "Remember the platypus."
Sandra Dodd: Wood pigeons have a pretty noise. And Bernadette, what are those smart shiny black birds kind of like crows but brilliant?
Bernadette: Starlings?
Sandra Dodd: Misa, I was grown with three kids, and learned from an information sign at the Indianapolis zoo that a platypus was now a mammal.
ChrisSanders: Grackles?
Sandra Dodd: (yes! Grackles)
Robin B.: I love grackles. Well, pretty much any bird.
Well, pretty much any bird.Sandra Dodd: Should have said that stand on the ground and eat off the ground and cock their heads at people. Starlings make weird patterns in the air.
ChrisSanders: I used to confuse Grackles and Starlings until I remembered their names are opposite of their appearance.
S1: Could be the Raven, the Rook or of course Magpies are pretty clever, not all black though.
ChrisSanders: I think Starlings are kind of ugly but have a pretty name and visa versa for Grackles.
Sandra Dodd: Grackles, I'm pretty sure.
ChrisSanders: Ravens are bigger than Grackles -- and probably smarter.
Sandra Dodd: So back to what we've learned from children.
Bernadette: I don't think you get grackles in the UK
Sandra Dodd: Okay. I'll look at my pictures. Be back...
Misa Knight: Sandra, what was it considered before? Monotremes are really interesting because they were kind of shoehorned into the mammal category, since they weren't quite appropriate for anything else.
ChrisSanders: I've learned quite a bit about astronomy, physics and black holes from Zoe.
ColleenP: I never knew how pretty grackles and starlings were til Robbie got into birding - lovely gold flecks on young starlings, and beautiful iridescence on grackles - I love it!
S1: No Grackles in the UK.
Sandra Dodd: Leeds castle has an albino peacock, and black swans (from Australia) and some of these little smart-ass black (bluish, shiny, ground-walking, look like crow-shape, sort of…. I said I'm not a bird person…)
Sandra Dodd: Jackdaw?
ChrisSanders: They're both kind of bird feeder hogs and make a mess. I consider them annoying when I'm trying to attract certain other birds.
Sandra Dodd: Scratch grackles, then.
ChrisSanders: Grackles and Starlings that is.
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Sylvia Woodman: Hi. Sorry I'm late!
Bernadette: Starlings are iridescent, rooks, ravens and crows are just black, I think, jackdaws are black and grey, blackbirds are black if they're male.
ColleenP: Australia *definitely* has fabulous birds - black swans are beautiful!
Sylvia Woodman: We spend a lot of time looking for Red Tailed Hawks.
Sandra Dodd: Sylvia, tell us something you have learned from your children, when you get settled and think about it.
ColleenP: Hummingbirds can see colors that humans can't - that's another thing I've learned from Robbie.
Sylvia Woodman: In our area there are lots of them so they are easy to find usually!
ColleenP: Pretty amazing to think about there being things we can't see!
AnnieLou: Monotremes are considered mammals because they feed milk to their young.
Sylvia Woodman: We also have a pretty decent blue heron population.
Bernadette: If they're 'little' then not ravens. Probably rooks, if they're in flocks.
Sylvia Woodman: When they fly low you can almost imagine that they are dinosaurs!
Bernadette: Although apparently it's a 'storytelling' of rooks, not a flock.
AnnieLou: I think I already knew about platypuses, but I have learnt so many animal facts from Liam.
Sandra Dodd: Marty knows a lot about Google's new hardware. We cheaped out year before last and gave him a Nexus instead of an iPad. But he loved it, and the next time he got a phone he got a Nexus. Recently he bought himself a Google Chromebook.
Sylvia Woodman: Well, without their interest in birds I'm not sure I'd notice what was flying around here.
Laurie: My son Li has been looking up nutritional information and told me that carmine is made from ground up ladybugs. He's also helped me with Photoshop - resizing, moving, working with layers and text. He's been So helpful!
Bernadette: My children have shown me lots of things on the computer.
Sandra Dodd: He can go on and on about the advantages and virtues of Google's advantages over Windows or Mac.
Sylvia Woodman: Harry has told me tons about Minecraft and also introduced me to Creepy Pasta videos on YouTube.
Sandra Dodd: Carmine is paint, though, right? Not food?
AnnieLou: Once he hears something about an animal he remembers it - for years (he's 7 now) he's been the person we ask if we want to know anything about an animal, and he nearly always knows the answer.
Bernadette: How to take screenshots, and keyboard shortcuts and things like that.
Laurie: He also found out last year that rennet can be made from both animal or vegetable sources. Since he's a vegetarian, he has decided to only eat vegetarian sources of rennet (found in cheeses, mostly soft ones).
Laurie: Carmine is the red coloring often found in yogurt and ice cream and other foods.
Sylvia Woodman: Also, because Gabriella is still learning to read she notices things that I don't see because I'm so focused on the WORDS that I don't always notice the images before my eyes.
Sandra Dodd: Holly always sees a "th" in the middle of a word, like "outhouse." She first sees the "th" and then has to remind herself it's not a blend.
ChrisSanders: Cochineal is an insect used for red dyes in textiles and food.
ChrisSanders: I think they're two words for the same thing.
Sylvia Woodman: We recently read a book about Helen Keller and I was so focused on the text that I didn't notice that the title appeared in Braile also. But Gabriella noticed and pointed it out to me.
Misa Knight: Carmine is often produced from chochineal.
Sandra Dodd: From Marty, I know lots of humorous trivia, partly from Cracked (his favorite website). Marty knows all about Prince, too. The way I used to know about The Beatles (but more about the music than about trivia).
Robin B.: Yes, I thought carmine was from cochineal bugs.
Sylvia Woodman: Gabriella knows a lot more about Yoga than I do. She was explaining to me all about Chakras.
AnnieLou: I've learnt a lot about Minecraft from each of my 3 kids, they've all showed me different things.
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Sandra Dodd: I know them as paints (ingredients for making red paint).
Sandra Dodd: Because of his job, Kirby reads a lot of news, theory, analysis, about video games.
ChrisSanders: I attended a natural dye workshop with a friend's daughter (my friend was sick so I took her daughter) and we used cochineal to dye silk.
Sylvia Woodman: Gabriella just walked through the kitchen and I asked her what else she knows about and she pointed out that she probably knows more about sewing than I do.
JennyC: Chamille has figured out how to not hold grudges. I don't know how to do that yet! She helps me though, talks me through it.
Sandra Dodd: When I'm playing a game on the iPad, Kirby often knows background stories about it, and he's very conversant in the in-game purchases some games have, and how that's seen within the industry.
Sandra Dodd: Games tend to be free now, but game play is slow and drawn out if you don't buy in-game "money" of some sort.
Misa Knight: There's a lot of politics (company/game/etc) behind that decision.
ColleenP: Robbie understands how to play Munchkin much better than his dad and I do, and talks us through the zillion rules each time we play.
Sandra Dodd: And to me, it's irritating and mysterious, but to Kirby it's part of trends and company proceeds, and he sees it from the other end.
AnnieLou: Oh yes, I've learnt about sewing from Caitlin - she learns by jumping in and giving it a go, and then is able to show me how to do stuff that I've never been brave enough to try.
ColleenP: He also knows how to play chess much better than I do, and has since he was 3 or 4 years old - he's very patient explaining it to me.
Misa Knight: We've had lots of talks about "free to play" being "not really free" and the general consensus here is we'd rather buy a game up front than make a ton of microtransactions. Even Kai - who is 6 - pointed out how easy it is to spend more than you think that way.
Sandra Dodd: When I visited Kirby recently he recommended a couple of games I've been playing: The Simpsons Tapped Out, and Puzzle Craft.
Sandra Dodd: I learned about photography from watching Holly.
Sandra Dodd: When I couldn't decide what camera to buy, Holly drove to Best Buy and helped me.
Sylvia Woodman: ==-==I learned about photography from watching Holly.==-== from watching her take pictures or from photographing her?
Sandra Dodd: Seeing how she considered factors when she was taking pictures—hearing what she said, watching what she did, and seeing the photos. Asking her questions.
Jill Parmer: When I'm looking at patterns to sew or knit, Addi will give me information on how the outfit or fabric design will look on different shaped bodies. An important aspect I completely overlooked.
Laurie: ==and then is able to show me how to do stuff that I've never been brave enough to try== That is why I go to Li for Photoshop questions...he is willing to try more things than I would and learn by doing. I am more cautious thinking I might mess something up and not know how to fix it. He feels confident in exploring and learning that way (and from tutorials sometimes).
AnnieLou: I've learnt to be more comfortable asking questions of people when we are out (asking where something is in a shop, or asking directions, say) from watching Caitlin - she does it so naturally and easily and without embarrassment - she's helping me 'unlearn' the social awkwardness I learnt growing up.
Sandra Dodd: Because I'm willing to learn from my kids, maybe they're more willing (in a way… this thought is vague in me) to learn from me. Because it flows all directions, it's not like I'm "teaching" them something.
Sandra Dodd: That's nice, AnnieLou.
JennyC: I go to Chamille for questions on hair styles. Like Addi with outfits and different bodies, Chamille does that with hair and faces.
Laurie: I think that makes a difference.
AnnieLou: Yes Sandra, it's like the family is a team and everyone has knowledge and skills that can help everyone else learn.
Sandra Dodd: Once long ago I coached Kirby on how to make introductions—which name to say first and how to know—and he just totally GOT it. One day he was introducing some friends of his around the room and Holly said later "I wish I could make nice introductions like Kirby does."
Sandra Dodd: I never did explain it to Marty, and hadn't to Holly (though I think I did briefly that day).
Jill Parmer: Yes! Sandra. It seems because of how we communicate within our family, it's normal to have conversations where the information is flowing around four people, and we're learning and bouncing ideas off each other, appreciatively.
JennyC: It takes a willingness to be completely wrong and have someone tell you how it's right. A lot of parents can't do that!
Sandra Dodd: No doubt it helps that everyone involved knows it's not a quiz or a test.
Sandra Dodd: It takes years of talking to a child as you would to a friend, I think, too, to get to where you have teens who are hsaring what they know without any desire but the joy of sharing, or of answering your questions.
Sandra Dodd: And not in a one-up "aha, you didn't KNOW that!" way, but it's about the information itself.
Sandra Dodd: Learning for the sake of learning, for the joy of discovery and of sharing.
ColleenP: I notice here at our house that there's no embarrassment around being wrong - mistakes tend to get giggles here, and since no one is shamed for being wrong, there is none of the yuckiness that surrounds that. Different from when I was younger, and being wrong meant opening yourself up to be criticized or shamed (in school, mostly - and then that transferred to fear of being wrong outside of school too for lots of kids I knew).
ColleenP: I notice here at our house that there's no embarrassment around being wrong - mistakes tend to get giggles here, and since no one is shamed for being wrong, there is none of the yuckiness that surrounds that. Different from when I was younger, and being wrong meant opening yourself up to be criticized or shamed (in school, mostly - and then that transferred to fear of being wrong outside of school too for lots of kids I knew).
Bernadette: I like to see how my older children are willing to learn from the younger ones. It took me until well into adulthood before I could learn from my younger siblings without a feeling of shame because I should have know what they know already.
AnnieLou: Yes, when people are excited about learning then it easy to share joyfully.
AnnieLou: I also like to see my older children showing/explaining things to the younger ones - and being confident that they will understand it, not thinking that they are too young to get it.
Laurie: And when someone is enthusiastic about something they are sharing, it is easier to join in on their excitement and learn in the process.
Robin B.: Embarrassment for being wrong (or thinking that you're wrong) can be a personality thing. Senna is easily embarrassed (as am I). Learning to lighten the mood can really help and we all try to do that for each other.
AnnieLou: (although Millie has been interested lately in the names of the parts of the upper and lower leg)
ChrisSanders: Robin, yes! Zoe is easily embarrassed too.
JennyC: Sometimes it IS embarrassing to be wrong especially if you were SURE you were right!
especially if you were SURE you were right!Robin B.: Yup.
JennyC: The difference at our house though, is that we don't get defensive about it.
JennyC: It doesn't turn into a NEED to be right to avoid that embarrassment.
Robin B.: Gentleness with someone who is embarrassed is preferable to the shaming and criticism that Colleen mentioned can happen at school or from parents.
ColleenP: Maybe it is personality - or a combination of personality and experience - whatever it is, I like it.
AnnieLou: Yes Robin, I do think some people are more easily embarrassed - I was, LiAM is - for me, the embarrassment usually turned into shame, whereas I think for LiAM he might be embarrassed for a minute and then it's over and there is no shame.
Jill Parmer: The sartorius muscle is interesting. Longest muscle in the body, runs from the outer hip to the inner knee. Used to be call "the tailor's muscle" because it was so pronounced in tailors who sat with their leg crossed over the other knee for hand sewing.
ChrisSanders: I already knew that! ;p
ChrisSanders: Just kidding, I didn't.
JennyC: That's something I see sometimes, in new to unschooling parents, in online discussions, that defensiveness and need to be right. And I think, "Oh, that parent is going to have a HARD time with unschooling."
Robin B.: AnnieLou, I think there's the difference, as you say. Our kids can get over it more quickly.
Robin B.: "Tailor's muscle" - that's cool, Jill!
JennyC: I try so hard not to cross my legs!
Robin B.: LOL Chris.
JennyC: But if you hand sew and use your leg to prop things, it puts it closer to your eyes.
Capn Franko: Sartor is Latin for "tailor" so that muscle has always been the "tailor's muscle." (wink)
Sandra Dodd: Nice, Frank!
JennyC: Nothing has quite irritated Margaux more than the "know it all" neighbor kid who wouldn't ooh and ahh over cool new information and then add their own, but would take her information and own it and make it theirs only BETTER.
AnnieLou: Yes, our kids don't feel like they have failed or let anybody down if they get something wrong, so there's no need to hold on to the embarrassment.
JennyC: We are always oohing and ahhing over new and cool information and adding other bits to it.
AnnieLou: My daughter has a friend who is so disdainful of any new information the kids (or I) share with her - its boring, or she already knew it, or she doesn't care - and apart from annoying me, it makes me feel sad that she's not excited about learning like me kids are.
Laurie: My daughter Katie shows me things sometimes - like new books she enjoys, music, workouts, apps, and recently a personality test (Humanmetrics Jung Typology Test) that she was excited about.
AnnieLou: We get excited over new information too, Jenny, and love adding other bits - 'hey, that's just like...'
Marta Pires: I've avoided games my whole life, well up until now that is, because I was always afraid of losing, of saying/doing the "wrong thing" and feeling embarassed.
Marta Pires: From playing some with my daughter and others with my step-daughter, I feel much more relaxed now and I enjoy it more! I look forward to finding new games and trying them out!
Jill Parmer: Oh gawd, Marta! I'm new to Dungeons and Dragons role playing game. And I recently had my cleric cast a spell in front of an underground Dwarf boss. The entire group lost all their gold and platinum and silver coins due to me. (I forgot spell casting has sound and arm motions with it.
) Most of the group was SO mad at me.Jill Parmer: So the boss made us drop all our coins or he would kill us.
Jill Parmer: Guess I'll never forget that again... that my spells aren't silent and hidden from sight.
Sandra Dodd: That trait you describe, AnnieLou, is the worst, in my opinion, for getting unschooling to work. Worse than being controlling and worse than using a curriculum.
Sandra Dodd: Being disdainful of joy… that's very sad.
JennyC: Any negativity is crushing.
Robin B.: It's a leftover from parents or school that squashed kids' joy, I think. Deschooling helps so much for that.
JennyC: My family, growing up, valued learning and knowledge, but people were cynical and disdainful of certain kinds of knowledge that it was as good as not valuing any of it.
JennyC: They still can't see the value in what my kids know. I see it. It took not being around them to be able to value all kinds of knowledge!
AnnieLou: Oh same here Jenny, some things were worth learning about and others weren't.
Jill Parmer: I wonder if AnnieLou's kids' friend has had any joy expressed over her ideas? Or over her excitement for something. Sad indeed.
Sandra Dodd: I bristle at any use of the word "stupid," and I don't like it used in my house, not because people ever called me stupid, but they would say it about things I thought were wonderful.
AnnieLou: Yeah I think that Jill, every time she dismisses my kids' news I wonder how often that happens to her at home.
JennyC: I was sharing, with Chamille, my recent train trip experience, about the different crews of people working. I had forgotten to bring tip money on my way down, but I remembered it on my way home. I was telling Chamille that the first crew was actually a better crew and I wished I could have tipped them.
Sandra Dodd: And I was right, if I had the feeling "wonderful!" and they were absolutely horribly wrong to say "stupid."
Sandra Dodd: As it turned out, they sat in their puddle of "stupid," and I left with all the wonder that was around me.
Sandra Dodd: But when I had children anyone who was too free with the word "stupid" was told not to do that to or around my children.
JennyC: And she said, maybe they knew each other better on your first trip. I said, maybe they had a better crew leader. She paused and I could see it all churning around and she had this light bulb moment right in front of me. She said, "That's sort of my job right now, I should work on that and find a way to be a good crew leader."
Robin B.:
Sandra Dodd: Nice thinking. Management.
JennyC: Yes, Sandra!!!!!
JennyC: I was saying yes about leaving with wonder and not allowing that non-wonder to enter back in!
JennyC: But, it was a nice light bulb moment to see her get!
AnnieLou: I really love that my kids have been able to explore things that in the past I would have rejected, that my family still put in the 'not valued knowledge' slot - especially tv shows and music and video games - the kids have learnt so much from them, and had so much joy, and so have I.
Sandra Dodd: In this conversation today, I think the "why" is the best part.
Sandra Dodd: The stories and examples are good, of things we've learned from kids. But looking at why it is that way is what will help people who read thsi discussion later. So thank you very much for all of this.
Capn Franko: I wanted to participate more in this discussion, especially since I'm in the process of writing a few short poems about what I've learned from our girls; but I've been mostly engaged in some house chores. Now, I gotta go finish that and get some lunch. Interesting chat. Good topic.
Sandra Dodd: The next chat had a topic didn't it, Marta? I'll be a Schuyler's house…
Sandra Dodd: Will those poems be on your blog, frank?
Robin B.: Poetry, Frank!!
Sylvia Woodman:
Sandra Dodd: If so, maybe we can link the post from here when/if there's an edited transcript for posterity.
Capn Franko: I dunno. They're for Robin's idea about posting anonymous stories like that around for the LIFE is Good conference. I'm a whiz at writing doggerrel. (grin)
Sandra Dodd: I'm really sorry I can't think of the topic. Doh!
Marta Pires: I don't think we had a topic already, Sandra. I had mentioned mindfulness once, don't know if you want to talk a bit about that next week.
Jill Parmer: I thought it was going to be with Pam Sorooshian?
Sandra Dodd: But the three AFTER next week are all special guest chats. Pam Sorooshian, then Alex Polikowsky and then Deb Lewis. So read some of what they've written before that day (there will be links in chat announcements) so you can ask good questions.
Marta Pires: The only thing that was known was that you'd be doing it from Schuyler's house and that she might be here.
JennyC: Ooooh Pam will be here?
Jill Parmer: Oh.
Robin B.: I thought it might be inspiring to post sweet stories/poems/snippets about our lives with our kids around the conference, maybe in unexpected places, for people to read. No names. Just happy things.
Capn Franko: I probably will post'em to the blog. I've posted poems for Ronnie and a couple of their poetic excursions. The girls deserve some dad poetry on the blog.
[And here's the link to Frank's poems: http://sandradodd.com/learningfromourkids]
[And here's the link to Frank's poems: http://sandradodd.com/learningfromourkids]
JennyC: Oh, cool!
Sandra Dodd: I think next week was going to be stories about my first impressions of Australia, and then my last week at Schuyler's I'll be gone for most of three weeks in the middle) we can talk to/with Schuyler.
Jill Parmer: Thanks All. See ya next week.
Jill Parmer left the chat
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Sandra Dodd: Thanks for being here.
Sandra Dodd left the chat
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Marta Pires: Bye everyone!
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Bernadette: Bye everyone
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Sylvia Woodman: Bye!
SaraVaz: Thanks everyone! Bye!
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