March 4 chat on Spirituality
Sometimes it seems that the changes people make as they deschool and then become competent, confident unschoolers tend toward enlightenment of one sort and another.
It's a little embarrassing for me to even propose the topic, yet I think it's very true that profound changes in a person's awareness and perspective ARE in the realm of the spirit.
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Sandra Dodd: Eight people before it's even time!? Good morning (or afternoon, to three of you, that I know of
)
Marta Pires:
Monica I: hi
Marta Pires: Hi everyone! Great topic today
Parvine: hi
Teresa Youngblood: Yes! Looking forward to this topic. Hello, everyone.
Parvine: the topic is of great interest
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Marta Pires: Not sure if I'll be able to stay for the whole chat though, because Sara and the kids are staying with us again. She went to the grocery store with Joaninha, the little one, and I'm home with Conchinha and Gabriel. They're playing Minecraft. Once Sara gets home, I'm not sure if I'll manage to stay here.
Sandra Dodd: One of the first "hard questions" I was asked by other homeschoolers, long ago (1995, maybe?) was how, without the threat of hell, would I make my kids be good. I might someday come across a print-out of the exact question.
But having grown up with some very RATTY little kids from very religious families, I wasn't the least bit intimidated by the question.
Monica I: Whoa, Sandra. What a crazy question that was.
Sandra Dodd: It might have been more specifically about Jesus, or church.
Sandra Dodd: But in context, asked in a group that was more than half fundamentalist Christian American homeschoolers... they meant all of that.
and spankings, too.
Sandra Dodd: I said there were reasons to be kind and honest that had nothing to do with a belief in God or the afterlife.
Sandra Dodd: So I said a bit more, and they said a bit more, and then one of them said "Isn't that humanism?"
Sandra Dodd: Within that (very large) subset of American protestant Christianity, "humanism" is kind of like "Satanism"—because it suggests that people have a value beyond being test subjects who might or might not worship their particular version of God.
Sandra Dodd: So one problem for today's discussion might be to try to see "spirit" as separate from religious belief.
Sandra Dodd: And maybe that's humanism.
Sandra Dodd: Though I don't name it anything but living a thoughtful life.
Monica I: I almost see them as mutually exclusive.
Sandra Dodd: There are very many terms that only make sense from a certain point of view.
Sandra Dodd: There is no satanism outside the larger realm of Christians who have defined (and fear) Satan.
Sandra Dodd: There is no "godlessness" outside a point of view that thinks "you're either with us, or you're against us."
Marta Pires: When I saw your note for today's chat, I was reminded of a TED talk that Deb Lewis once posted on facebook.
Marta Pires
Marta Pires: Description from the link: "Questions of good and evil, right and wrong are commonly thought unanswerable by science. But Sam Harris argues that science can -- and should -- be an authority on moral issues, shaping human values and setting out what constitutes a good life."
Sandra Dodd: Ack it's 23 minutes long!! I was going to sneak a peek if it was five or ten minutes. I think I've seen it before, though.
Monica I: THanks, Marta.
Marta Pires: Sorry it's so long...
Sandra Dodd: I think an economics view might help, too. What kinds of people are valuable *to you* (because if you're a burglar, people without good doors and locks have value)
Sandra Dodd: If there are things in others that make them desirable, it makes sense to be that way yourself.
Sandra Dodd: To lure them, gain their trust, and just to live by your own values.
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Teresa Youngblood: Sandra, I think your definition applies to more and more Americans' ideas about spirituality; current figures put the "no religious affiliation" percentages at about 1/3, and "spiritual but not religious" is at around 24%. I'm not sure about other countries.
Sandra Dodd: For a long time, in our language and culture, people figured church and spirituality were synonymous. But it makes no sense.
Sandra Dodd: Jihong, if you're here... In Communist China, is there any even at-home religious practice?
Sandra Dodd: Is reading Confucius considered to be religious practice?
(Jihong didn't ever respond.)
Parvine: I grew up outside a religious community, but with the principles of a Faith which highlighted the importance of living life peacefully, thoughtfully and with the value of questioning our own ideas, which is referred to as the independent investigation of Truth.
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Sandra Dodd: Some of us were talking about a plot detail in one of the korean dramas, about a clash between Confucianism (the formally educated) and the Shamans. And I've thought since then about the factors involved with religions/systems-of-values that are not necessary exclusive.
Monica I: Lucky, Parvine.
I was never told those things - had to begin to 'figure it out' on my own. Maybe I'm lucky, too.
Sandra Dodd: it's possible to be Jewish and Buddhist.
Sandra Dodd: It's not possible to be Jewish and Christian.
Teresa Youngblood: I like this Rumer Godden quote about spirituality. It's a little didactic, maybe, but think what resonates with me, from an unschooling perspective, is the loose interpretation of what it means to be "well rounded"--airing out the rooms of our house: “There is an Indian proverb or axiom that says that everyone is a house with four rooms, a physical, a mental, an emotional and a spiritual. Most of us tend to live in one room most of the time but, unless we go into every room every day, even if only to keep it aired, we are not a complete person.”
Monica I: Teresa, I saw that yesterday. Really like that.
Robin B.: Sandra I know Messianic Jews. So they are Jewish and Christian.
Robin B.: Or something.
Teresa Youngblood: I have a friend who is a Jewish Unitarian. She calls herself a Jewnitarian.
Parvine: I think many aspects of Buddhism is found in all Faiths . There is a common foundation in all religions.
Monica I: I'm an EpiscaBuddhist. Or something.
Sandra Dodd: They use that term, Robin, but once they believe in Jesus, the Jews aren't claiming them anymore; the Christians are.
Robin B.: Yep. That's the "or something."
Robin B.: Culturally Jewish, perhaps, and religiously Christian.
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Sandra Dodd: Yes. Because Buddhism is more philosophical than "one God"/prescribed behavior.
Virginia W: I grew up without religion. No church, no praying. My dad tried on Buddhism briefly, but he didn't include me at all.
Virginia W: Actually, that's not correct. My dad started AA when I was 10 or so, and that filled the role of religion in his life for a long time.
Teresa Youngblood: Virginia, I had a family dynamic like that.
Sandra Dodd: After the 1960's, the U.S. counterculture created a kind of smorgasbord of religious tidbits to take home and use.
Monica I: I'm familiar with the 12 steps being a religion.
AlexPolikowsky6: How are we defining spirit? IN Brazil when people say they are not religious but spiritual it means they believe in a spirit/ghost and even magical ghost spirits that come to help or hurt you. So being spiritual can be and usually is, vewry very wooish in Brazil and I find myself disliking the term.
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Sandra Dodd: IN the 1960s's, and after.
Virginia W: My parents were hippies. They were into astrology.
Teresa Youngblood: Alex, here, I think it means that people feel a sense of transcendence--a oneness with nature, for example, or a washing over with peacefulness--without it being connected to any beliefs or practices.
Sandra Dodd: Twelve-step spiritual tricks and tools, the happy good-parts of Hinduism (as Rumer Godden's quote), various kinds of Buddhism (because there are probably as many forms of Buddhism as there are of Christianity).
Sandra Dodd: In English that would be "spiritualist."
Sandra Dodd: Spiritual had a meaning before the 1960's, within Christianity, that has lost first-place in the dictionary.
Sandra Dodd: But the seance-holding ghost-seeking folks of the 1920s were "spiritualists."
AlexPolikowsky6: For some yes Teresa but not everyone.
Sandra Dodd: I see it as a calm awareness that there is some part of a person that isn't intellect, and isn't physical.
Sandra Dodd: There is something about our minds, about our awareness and perception and biochemistry that is what people build religions about and around.
Sandra Dodd: And it exists, still, without religion.
Parvine: Spirituality for me is about helping me change my way of thinking.
Sandra Dodd: Why is that not logic, Parvine?
Virginia W: That sound like thinking about thinking.
Sandra Dodd: A baby without language can have peace or fear.
Sandra Dodd: And some of that angle of being/knowledge continues to exist even after the child gains language and starts to sort things into this or that.
Monica I: There's a quote out there 'somewhere' talking about spirit vs. religion...can't find it. About how you can fit your head inside your heart but not your heart inside your head.
Sound familiar - b/c i'm not geting it quite right. About not having to explain everything - that you can't explain everything. that faith (in whatever) can't be put in a science box and that you can have both...?
AlexPolikowsky6: My mother once asked me if I did not believe in anything (good, higher power, Universe) how would I keep going in a moment of need and despair? I said just look at my family, my kids, the beauty around me.
Sandra Dodd: Virginia, the blog about woodfires doesn't speak to spirituality, does it? It seems to lean toward the idea that religion is harmful
Sandra Dodd: I don't think religion is harmful, necessarily, and it's not the way I'd like to go with this chat.
Sandra Dodd: Some people DO find spiritual benefits through religion and don't feel any need to separate them, and that's great when it happens.
Parvine: mentally slowing down, finding the calm space within helps me see things in a different light. Perhaps it is just logical steps, that I am associating with spirituality.
Sandra Dodd: Parvine, I think every religion has tools for slowing down and finding calm.
Parvine: Alex, looking at the beauty around me and being grateful, living in gratitude, I again seem to associate with spirituality.
Sandra Dodd: Prayer, chanting, meditation, certain kinds of waiting during music or bells. Religions also, nearly universally, have some sort of candles or fire; banners or ribbons; bells (small or large); a meeting place with a tall central area (center of a clearing, or a cathedral roof)
Sandra Dodd: Gratitude is calming and centering, and I think you're right. I think it can be (emotionally) the opposite of agitation.
Teresa Youngblood: Logical epiphanies and realizations about how things are connected can help us live better lives and--maybe even biochemically--BE better people. That can feel like a spiritual transformation, when it seems to change something for the better about our essential selves.
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Sandra Dodd: Gratitude can be "here is good; this is enough" as oppose to "I SHOULD NOT BE HERE and this is not good and I need more."
Rippy1: Hi everyone!
Sandra Dodd: Hi, Rippy!
Monica I: Hi Rippy
Sandra Dodd: I still have some writing of Rippy's and then commentary by Janine Davies that I want to add to my spirituality page, but just haven't done it yet.
Sandra Dodd: I see and hope for more than I can actually do.
Monica I: So about epiphanies -does that mean that we can always change our essential self or are we (all or some?) born spiritual or not? devil advocating...
Sandra Dodd: Some people have more of it (whatever it is) than others.
Sandra Dodd: Depends on your definition of "essential self."
Sandra Dodd: Someone who is born without much coordination, spatial sense or kinesthetic intelligence can probably NOT be made into a professional ballet dancer nor an Olympic anything.
Parvine: I associate gratitude with abundance, I choose to have a grateful attitude.
Sandra Dodd: Good, thanks, Rippy! Then I need to link it. But thanks for giving me a clue.
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Monica I: hi alex! i recognize your name from FB pages!
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes there's not abundance, but someone can still be glad not to have slid over a cliff.
Even though the car is wrecked into a tree, and they don't know how they'll get home. That migh be gratitude without abundance.
Teresa Youngblood: I wonder if there is a collective aspect of religion that may or may not be present with spirituality. I once read a quote, which now eludes me, that said something to the effect of us becoming fully human only in community.
AlexPolikowskyz: was changing computers
Sandra Dodd: Teresa, that quote was probably written by someone with a very high interpersonal intelligence.
Sandra Dodd: And defined being fully human as being more like her.
(or him)
Monica I: community is lots of things, no?
AlexPolikowskyz: Parvine you said above:"Alex, looking at the beauty around me and being grateful, living in gratitude, I again seem to associate with spirituality."
AlexPolikowskyz: Why?
AlexPolikowskyz: as in the human spirit?
AlexPolikowskyz: or is it just how I want to live and perceive life?
Sandra Dodd: Teresa, be careful about questions. This one probably doesn't ask what you wanted to ask. " I wonder if there is a collective aspect of religion that may or may not be present with spirituality. " There is. But what it's too broad a question to be very useful.
AlexPolikowskyz: I think I have a hard time separation "Spirituality" from any type of belief.
Sandra Dodd: Okay, Alex. It's fine if someone is able to use tools that some people would define as "spiritual" and the person doesn't define it that way.
Monica I: I guess I just see spirituality and belief/religion as two totally separate things.
Sandra Dodd: That happens with atheists in Twelve-step programs.
AlexPolikowskyz: What happens Sandra?
Sandra Dodd: My mom was in AA and had a sponsor who didn't believe in "a higher power." So he picked a wooden fence post between his house and the AA center he went to and declared that his higher power, and would visualize that fence post at that point in the meetings.
Parvine: For me , it is a way of perceiving life.
Sandra Dodd: It was like a talisman, like an altar.
AlexPolikowskyz: I think unschooling has made my life better and made me a better person and happier and more content, although I tend to be that way.
Sandra Dodd: Some people have very little interest in religion/belief/spirituality.
AlexPolikowskyz: I am just more aware and more grateful.
Sandra Dodd: It's probably physical, and genetic. There is a part of the brain that has been identified as the place that "lights up" when monks and nuns (Christian or Buddhist) meditate or pray.
Sandra Dodd: Some people really care about religion. More females than males, but some of the males who are religious are VERY religious.
Sandra Dodd: So I think when a person with that tendency/ability doesn't believe in God, their capacity can be turned to philosophy.
Sandra Dodd: And that might be what happens with unschooling.
AlexPolikowskyz: or you may change too. I have little interest in religion/belief/spirituality but I sure am in awe of the beauty around, grateful for what I have and have a lot of peace in my life.
Sandra Dodd: Because we look at what relationships between parents and children can or should be (and can and should not be), we're probably using that part of our brain.
Sandra Dodd: The meaning-of-life part.
Teresa Youngblood: Sandra, I'm curious--and if this derails the conversation, I understand passing on it--what made you say that you felt a little embarrassed to present this chat topic, in the chat description?
Sandra Dodd: Teresa, because it's not the overt purpose of unschooling.
Sandra Dodd: It's not what people come to the discussions for, but it's something a lot of people discover along the way.
Sandra Dodd: If the chat is about TV or games or math or writing, EVERY unschooler needs to consider those.
Parvine: I feel being aware, being grateful produces some sort of mind shift and contribute towards living in peace.
Sandra Dodd: Not every unschooler needs to consider spirituality.
Sandra Dodd: It's a specialty item.
Sandra Dodd: And in the world, the people who gather others to talk about it are usually ministers of some sort, not just some other mom.
Sandra Dodd: So that's the discomforting factor.
Sandra Dodd: Parvine, I agree.
Sandra Dodd: Gratitude, abundance, service and humility are the pages I have that might as well be straight linked to spirituatlity.
Sandra Dodd: Mindful parenting.
Sandra Dodd: Being.
Sandra Dodd: As my site ages, it's picking up more and more of the esoteric "advanced" stuff.
Sandra Dodd:
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulparenting (if any of these links don't work, I can fix them before the transcript, but I'd like them to be here for people who find this later, someday)
Sandra Dodd: And as with just every other thing about unschooling, I don't think parents should try to "teach" their children anything spiritual
Sandra Dodd: But an awareness of the value of it, and some sort of idea of what "it" might involve, could help the parent help the child, when questions arise.
Sandra Dodd: Or should color the advice a parent gives.
Monica I: i totally agree. mine see things totally differently that me - and from each other. i couldn't possibly 'teach' anything to them.
Sandra Dodd: When the questions are "Why should I" or "do I have to" about friendships or compassion or morality
Sandra Dodd: When a parent doesn't see it, it's possible that biological offspring won't either. But in any nature vs. nurture question, it's still worth seeing it as something valuable. Because also, with genetics, a parent without much spiritual awareness or capacity might have a child with a huge streak of yearning toward virtue and the unseen and unknown possibilities of "what if," about people's souls.
Sandra Dodd: Think of stories or examples, if you can, of a time you or a child had a spiritual incident. (Not ghosts, Alex)
Teresa Youngblood: My 6 year old, a few nights ago, was very worried about a friend who had gotten injured a few days before. My son was feeling sad and uncomfortable when he imagined his friend. I found myself in the surprising position of suggesting we pray for him. Pray to what or whom, I could not say, but we basically "made a wish" for his friend to feel better. It felt good to kind of "claim" the idea of prayer without needing it to be part of a system of beliefs. And it felt good to be able to offer that tool to my child.
regan: We were at a beach vacation, sitting out at night looking at the stars, and my son (then 4) started crying to think about the size of the universe.
Monica I: like everything - an option. "here's this thing that might speak to you....no? okay". my 5 year old is always saying 'god is in nature.' i'm not sure if she knew it was an option b/c she'd heard me say something of the like but it seems she really believes that on a deeper level.
AlexPolikowskyz: See Teresa I would have helped my child write a card or make or or find a little present to sent to cheer the friend up.
AlexPolikowskyz: More doing than wishful thinking.
Monica I: what if both doing and wishful thinking are powerful? maybe?
AlexPolikowskyz: That is a belief Monica.
Teresa Youngblood: Those are good, Alex. It was bedtime, and the situation had a sort of dreamy quality to it. I sensed that he was more talking out loud than anything else, so I framed it as a way to purposefully talk out loud. I wish I would have thought to follow up with the card idea the following day!
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AlexPolikowskyz: You could talk to your child about his friend and how you both wish he heals and is alright and let him express his worry and you both can hope for his wellness. But then again I don't believe in God or higher power.
Sandra Dodd: But Alex, you believe that a card or gift would help.
It's still belief.
AlexPolikowskyz: That can make the other child feel better right?
Sandra Dodd: If there's no God, why is Lee Min Ho so pretty? [joking, almost]
AlexPolikowskyz: IF praying makes you feel better than go for it.
AlexPolikowskyz: NOW That can almost make me believe in God.
AlexPolikowskyz:
AlexPolikowskyz: I know I do not believe in God. My daughter does and likes to go to Sunday school.
Sandra Dodd: Praying makes people feel better when they believe it will. The act of focussing on something else outside yourself, and being VERY still and present and thinking healing, loving thoughts can help calm one's own raging storm of fears and feelings of inadequacy.
Monica I: my daughter believes in god. she hates church.
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes people who don't believe in God still meditate.
Teresa Youngblood: Alex, that's what we did! I don't believe in a higher power, either, and I think the concept of God is only as good as it is useful in helping people to treat each other and the earth well. But, I don't necessarily think that's mutually exclusive with the idea of prayer. I liked what was said earlier about it being a tool.
Sandra Dodd: I would try to talk her down from "hate."
Sandra Dodd: No matter what one believes, hatred hurts the hater.
Sandra Dodd: Just linguistically, it's what "hateful" is—full of hate. It's better to be softer and more accepting of things we don't prefer—realizing that others do like them, and should have the peaceful right to do that.
Monica I: that was too strong- totally called me on not being clear. she dislikes it.
Sandra Dodd: I think that's spiritual. (I guess Alex doesn't.)
Sandra Dodd: I called you on having it right at hand, in your thoughts and in your vision of her.
AlexPolikowskyz: "I think the concept of God is only as good as it is useful in helping people to treat each other and the earth well. >>> If a person is only treating others nice because they believe in God ????So if thy did not they would not? UGH
Sandra Dodd: But some people aren't good at thinking, Alex.
Sandra Dodd: So for those people, I would prefer for them to be in a place of religious observance than out jacking my van.
AlexPolikowskyz: I think religion is really helpful for some people.
Monica I: sandra, i don't get it. i like that she dislikes church - or she could change her mind, too. that's fine.
Sandra Dodd: I did not call you on being unclear. You were clear. You used the word that came to mind, the word that you had associated with your daughter's feelings. I was trying to point out a potential problem with that.
Monica I: she dislikes getting up early and being told what to do, but likes the songs and craft woman who makes stuff with her
AlexPolikowskyz: Maybe I just don't call it spiritual Sandra because of my issues with the word?? I can certainly feel the awe that some call a deeply spiritual moment. I just don't have a name for it.
Sandra Dodd: I know for sure that watching Faith, Alex, you had those transcendent feelings of one-ness with time and other people.
Sandra Dodd: I think those metaphysical feelings are spiritual.
Sandra Dodd: Do you like "metaphysical" better?
Sandra Dodd: "Metaphysics" has also been abused by people who wanted to do magic with colors and crystals and ideas.
AlexPolikowskyz: Absolutely
I had those moments watching it and they are inspiring.
Sandra Dodd: And if they're having fun, it's a religion they've made up and that's cool.
Sandra Dodd: INSPIRING!
Sandra Dodd: The root word of "inspire" is related to spirit.
Sandra Dodd: Breath.
Sandra Dodd: The part of people that is living. The spirit. The soul.
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Sandra Dodd: The difference between life and death isn't thought.
Sandra Dodd: People can have brain injury or alzheimers or heavy-metals poisoning and their brain will not work anymore.
Sandra Dodd: But they're still alive.
AlexPolikowskyz: OK Metaphysical moments . Spiritual not in a ghost spirit but the person's essence ( qualities, awareness, personality, individuality, how thy see the world, mindfulness)
Teresa Youngblood: I live in the southern US, and it's helpful to have a working knowledge of religion and how it informs people's behavior to answer lots of questions. We had a conversation the other day with my 9 year old about why we had to drive a county over to get a bottle of wine on a Sunday!
Sandra Dodd: Those moments that can come from seeing something breathtakingly beautiful (breathtaking is like "inspiring"—also about breathing, and that something sort of possesses you)
Sandra Dodd: Waterfalls, rainbows, puppies, big birds.
Teresa Youngblood: (I never noticed the connection between inspire and breathtaking before. Thanks for that!)
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Sandra Dodd: Or sounds—the breathing of someone we love, asleep. Some kinds of music. Soothing voices, certain words, poetry.
AlexPolikowskyz: butterflies, ocean, Choi Young......
Sandra Dodd: There are tastes some people associate with things that touch them in their spirit, in their soul.
Sandra Dodd: So this is my best advice to anyone whether they believe in God or not.
Sandra Dodd: Find things that nurture that part of you
AlexPolikowskyz: Smells. Definitely smells and sounds
Sandra Dodd: Find things that soothe and calm you.
Misa: That's funny, Teresa. When we moved out here to Indy, my husband went to go get some alcohol for a pie. It was Sunday. We totally didn't even think about it. This led to a big discussion with Kai over whether religious beliefs ought to influence laws.
Sandra Dodd: Know what can inspire you.
Sandra Dodd: Because sometimes you need that re-centering.
Sandra Dodd: It can be about health and safety. (Safety of others around you, if you have a temper but you can figure out how to reboot.)
AlexPolikowskyz: So I can say that walking on the beach shore is a spiritual experience for me then. I can totally get centered and well from doing it.
Sandra Dodd: I think the feeling of "inspiration" or "wonder" makes me bigger. It makes that part of me we're trying to talk about expand out of me, and be larger than my normal self.
Sandra Dodd: Some people see auras.
Sandra Dodd: I can feel sometimes, if my arm is near another person's arm, kind of parallel—can read information from them.
Sandra Dodd: People can sometimes smell another person's sweet relaxation, or fear, or shame. We cover those clues up with soap and deoderant and perfume.
Sandra Dodd: I that "spiritual"—the ability to read physical clues?
Sandra Dodd: It's not even metaphysical. But it is a part of us that we reject and cover over and deny.
AlexPolikowskyz: That can be explained scientifically. Dogs can smell fear for example
Sandra Dodd: Alex: "I can totally get centered and well from doing it." What is centered, and what is well, is your spirit.
Sandra Dodd: Spirit will probably be explained scientifically someday too.
AlexPolikowskyz: That is awareness and a kin sensitivity Sandra
Sandra Dodd: So?
Sandra Dodd: It's still not the same as intellect.
Rippy1: I remember reading an article about the neuroscientist Jill Taylor and she said that even though she couldn't communicate or understand language anymore, she understood energy. She could 'feel' who was on her side.
Rippy1: She had a stroke which made her lose her ability to talk and understand language, I believe
AlexPolikowskyz: Centered and well=Calm, peaceful, able to think and be mindful if I was not. Helps with any depression or blues I am feeling.
Marta Pires: Is that the author you once recommended to me, Rippy?
AlexPolikowskyz: Was that they one who had a stroke?
Marta Pires: That's her, Alex.
Sandra Dodd: i met someone who could write but not read. She could understand spoken language, but not even read what she had just written down.
STILL EDITING. Sandra stopped here.
AlexPolikowskyz: Yep that was a good talk on TED.
Rippy1: I think so Marta. And yes Alex, she had a stroke.
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Rippy1: I find people like her so fascinating - people that suddenly perceive the world very differently than they did before because of an illness or coming close to death
Sandra Dodd: Marta, help Alex have a word for spirituality that she's not associating with Brazilian ghost-juju, please.
Sandra Dodd: I don't know the Portuguese problem.
Marta Pires:
Teresa Youngblood: A link, for me, between unschooling and spirituality was wanting to notice those moments that felt like "expanding." I was too busy, too focused on other stuff, too wrapped up in my own life previously to be open to them. I don't know if that was time, opportunity, or what. But I came to practice appreciation through unschooling, and that feels like spirituality a lot.
Sandra Dodd: -=-able to think and be mindful if I was not-=-
AlexPolikowskyz: I think that is what it is Sandra. I have an issue with the world not with what you are saying about it. So my issue.
Sandra Dodd: Alex, how can you have the concept "mindful" without admitting to having an aspect of yourself that is spirit?
Sandra Dodd: Awareness, mindfulness, doesn't feel like the rearrangement of factoids with my logic.
Sandra Dodd: It feels like closing off that thinky blinky part of my brain and knowing in other ways.
Sandra Dodd: Teresa, I like that description.
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AlexPolikowskyz: I get all that Sandra! It is the word "spiritual" that has been associated with JuJu for so long in my life,
Sandra Dodd: -=-That can be explained scientifically. Dogs can smell fear for example-=-
Sandra Dodd: Part of religion (for Christians, maybe Moslems and Jews too) is the absolute rejection of being like ANY animal, at all.
Marta Pires: I don't think there is another word for it even in Portuguese, that isn't somehow associated with ghostly-juju stuff.
Sandra Dodd: We and God are in one category and NOT animals.
Sandra Dodd: English words seem able to split themselves for specialities, so we can have spirit, spirituality and spiritualism be different things.
AlexPolikowskyz: Remember in Faith when she decides to live that moment and really look at her surroundings? She mentions the clean air and the beauty that just now she is noticing because before all she wanted was to get back home? A spiritual moment for sure then.
Sandra Dodd: I've talked about words as tinkertoys or Lego (Greek or Romance-language-based English words) or like wooden alphabet blocks (English compound words like bathroom and bookshelf) but now I'm proposing that there are amoebalike tendencies in some English words.
Sandra Dodd: And him tracing her face on the shadow. He was outside himself.
Sandra Dodd: Transcendent moments.
Teresa Youngblood: That's exactly it! Unschooling was like WAKING UP to so much in life. Wake--awake--aware.
Sandra Dodd: When, for even one second, we feel lighter, airy, floaty, bigger, softer, wiser.
AlexPolikowskyz: I agree with that Teresa. Unschooling did wake me up in areas of my life.
Sandra Dodd: The idea of flow is like transcendence.
Sandra Dodd: The perception of time and place is gone, for a while.
Sandra Dodd: The perception of self might be gone, depending on the activity.
Sandra Dodd: If we're experiencing something (a movie, a book, music, nature) we can forget we are the observer, and become something more universal.
Sandra Dodd: As though we are God's view of the thing.
Sandra Dodd: And THAT can be a "one-ness with God" that people talk about sometimes.
Teresa Youngblood: Often times, inventors and other creators talk about how ideas come to them fully formed in those moments of flow. I think in years past, that was thought of to be the visit of the muse.
Rippy1: Alex - are there some specific icky memories you have with the word spiritual? Maybe it'll be helpful to untangle a memory or two that didn't make you feel good about that word. I think that might help you feel lighter when you hear the word, especially if it comes up with your kids.
Sandra Dodd: Unschooling can wake a person up because they cast off the heavy bits that were keeping them small and weighted down. They reject the what if what if what if fears that some people wrap their whole lives in.
AlexPolikowskyz: I can sense that. Most nights when I go out to feed baby calve I look up at the sky and I feel that. I enjoy that moment and the sky and the wonder of it all. I take lots of little moments like that in my days. Enjoying playing with the kittens or hugging my kids. Those are what I call "good for my soul" and there you have it ! I said soul!
Sandra Dodd: And gradually, by setting aside those weights, people become lighter.
Sandra Dodd: Closer to heaven.
Marta Pires: Yes, Sandra.
Sandra Dodd: Thanks for saying "soul," Alex. I feel better.
Capn Franko: I'm late to this conversationso I don't wanna derail it but I'm with Alex. I'd use "emotional" or maybe "parasympathetic" but "spiritual" is too religiousfor my taste.
AlexPolikowskyz: Rippy The word is attached to beliefs I do not have in Brazil. Not that they are icky of bad ( some are) but beliefs I absolutely do not have. Of the Voodoo kind ( even if in a nice way)
Sandra Dodd: Frank, for anyone who doesn't know, is the product of a formal Jesuit education.
Sandra Dodd: Just through high school, Frank, or University as well?
regan: Hey, me too, Frank. Boston College.
Sandra Dodd: Of all the things likely to kick a person's spirit to the curb into eternity, that's probably top of the list.
Capn Franko: Just high school. They offered me several college scholarship to Jesuit Us. I chose secular. (wink)
Rippy1: Did you find a good word to replace spiritual with during this chat
Rippy1: Sorry that was meant for Alex.
Sandra Dodd: Nope
Sandra Dodd: (OH, she said "soul" a minute ago.)
AlexPolikowskyz: Nope rippy
Marta Pires: Same here, Alex. Not so much voodoo stuff, but more Christian beliefs.
Sandra Dodd: But if one of Alex's kids talks about spirit, I don't think Alex is going to fear they're going to start reading the entrails of chickens sacrificed in a graveyard.
Capn Franko: I understand and agree with the feelings y'all are describing but simply have personal resistance to using the word "spiritual."
Misa: I have a friend who went to college to get a degree in some sort of religious studies. "That's a really good way to lose all your beliefs and become super secular," she says.
Sandra Dodd: i just don't fear religion. I think voodo altars are some of the coolest art on the planet.
Rippy1: Ha Misa!
AlexPolikowskyz: I sure hope not but I grew up with people that did sacrifice chicken in the crossroads
Capn Franko: My standing joke is that I'm atheist thanks tot eh Jesuits and poacifist thanks to the U. S> Marines.
Sandra Dodd: But I'm not afraid of voodoo, nor churchiness, because I'm strong and confident. Not everyone is.
Capn Franko: Voodo in New Orleans too. I grew up with that intermingled with the local variant of Catholicism.
Sandra Dodd: Misa, people can't study the history of religions in general without starting to see patterns that keep Christianity from being unique and special.
AlexPolikowskyz: I don't fear them. I am not against whatever makes one happy. The word "Spiritual" has religious connotations to me and since I don't believe in God or a higher power or a ghost spirit it is a word I do not relate.
Sandra Dodd: Just reading Marcus Aurelius (a philosophical Roman emperor from not long after Jesus-days) and knowing that some of those ideas were just the best of the thinking of thoughtful people in those days is enough to derail "jesus said..."
Sandra Dodd: Rippy's made a good point, though, Alex.
Sandra Dodd: You might want to gently dismantle some of that, for the sake of your kids.
AlexPolikowskyz: If "spiritual" is used to talk about this wonder, mindfulness, peace, awe and feelings that Sandra described ( and others) I am all for it .
Rippy1: What do Buddhists use for the word 'spiritual'. I think Buddhists (or at least some Buddhists) also don't believe in God or a higher power. Am I right about that?
Teresa Youngblood: I read a book a while back called "Fluent in Faith," and the point of the book was that faithy-type words stand for concepts that have few easy parallels, and that we can't fully access the concepts without the language. It also made a convincing case for being religiously literate, as Americans, since so much of this country only makes sense when viewed through a lens of Christianity.
AlexPolikowskyz: I work on it as Gigi loves Sunday school and believes in God. I work hard on it.
Sandra Dodd: mindful?
Sandra Dodd: We can't say, Rippy. We can only say what is translated into English.
Rippy1: Probably mindful.
Sandra Dodd: Buddhism is in too many languages and cultures to have "a word" for anything, I think.
AlexPolikowskyz: I like the word Mindful.
Rippy1: Alex - I think "spiritual" is all that - wonder, mindfulness, peace, awe
Sandra Dodd: This page is saying prajna, kensho and satori (for enlightenment)
Rippy1: Oh yes, enlightenment too.
regan: in some situations, sublime or transcendant might work.
Sandra Dodd: So do we go with the sanskrit word, or the Japanese?
Sandra Dodd: And does that cut out all of China, Korea, the rest of Buddhist-worlds?
Sandra Dodd: It's too big a topic.
Sandra Dodd: Translations
AlexPolikowskyz: I grew up with SPiritual being all that plus much more that I do not believe or agree and that is the issue. It is about the word the way it is used in Brazil.
Teresa Youngblood: The book was full of words that made me squirm: grace, mercy, prayer, faith... I had to do a lot of thinking about why I was uncomfortable, and then how I could start to be comfortable enough to not communicate disdain or weirdness if/when they came up with my kids.
AlexPolikowskyz: and by people here too! ( in the US)
Sandra Dodd: you're not in brazil, Alex. Don't leave your mind in some dead chicken in brazil. Seriously.
Sandra Dodd: buck up
Sandra Dodd: Very interesting, Teresa!
Sandra Dodd: I have had the most pushback, from parents, when I recommended humility.
Sandra Dodd: They go carzy.
Sandra Dodd: crazy
Sandra Dodd: it has gone out of style and practice for a long, long time.
AlexPolikowskyz: I have no problem with that word
Sandra Dodd: But because of my medieval-studies interest, I looked deep into "knightly virtues," for years.
AlexPolikowskyz: I see that in Korean Dramas Sandra. Humility
Sandra Dodd: And recently I read a book on humility by a guy who did research, and I think of writing to him.... but I have no credentials.
Sandra Dodd: He described something as humility, but it's really another medieval virtue called "franchise."
Sandra Dodd: I can't "prove it." But I know it.
Sandra Dodd: Humility is an emotional/mental/probably-spiritual posture.
Sandra Dodd: It involves acceptance.
Sandra Dodd: Openness.
Sandra Dodd: And confidence without over-confidence.
Sandra Dodd: Strength without bravado.
Teresa Youngblood: Nice. I would never have guessed that.
AlexPolikowskyz: I was laughing Sandra at the chicken and buck up but even here people will talk about being spiritual and how they use some crystal energy or something other. Very wooish here in the US.
Sandra Dodd: But once one is confident and strong, and still aware that there is more to know and that others have different strengths, they can share that "power"—they have kind of built up points, or [I am out of words]
Sandra Dodd: ... credit. They have credit. Others trust them. So they have an account of social-something they can spend.
Sandra Dodd: And if they spend it on themselves, they lose points FAST.
Sandra Dodd: But if they spend it to promote and support others, that is franchise.
Rippy1: Alex, I've had friends who have had a traumatic experience with their religion and if someone slips in the word 'spiritual' their walls go up and they feel unwell. But conversation might be about an amazing sunset or catching the perfect wave and it's really a conversation about wonder and awe and that friend is missing out on all sorts of good stuff because they are internally freaking out about the word spiritual.
Sandra Dodd: Using one's personal power to ennoble others.
AlexPolikowskyz: No wonder you loved Faith/The Great Doctor. IT as all that. It is a fabulous story.
Russ left the chat 3 hours ago
Sandra Dodd: It might be why the themes return in my "brand" of unschooling hep, too.
Sandra Dodd: Rippy, that's my worry about Alex, too—or others—that by rejecting a term, they reject all that could be behind that wall.
AlexPolikowskyz: Rippy I do not miss out on those conversations or feelings. It may sound that I really react to the word but not as much as it appears. It means different things for me than what is discussed here.
Sandra Dodd: But Alex, you have put a LOT of energy and words into (it seemed) trying to block our use of the word.
Sandra Dodd: I don't want to go up and count, but saying it once might have been enough. You said it over and over and over.
AlexPolikowskyz: The word yes. Not the feelings that are being discussed here. The wonder, mindfulness, awe.... Those I embrace everyday.
Sandra Dodd: It's like you're in a batting cage, or hitting tennis balls from a launcher.
Sandra Dodd: If you really hated the word, should you have skipped the chat?
Misa: I tend to tune out when people talk "spiritual' or "religious" or "wooish". I'm working on getting better about it, but it's still an issue. Probably because it really was used in not nice ways towards me AND because, being a "secular" homeschooler has been an issue. I try to remember it's not that way everywhere.
AlexPolikowskyz: Sorry.
Sandra Dodd: Instead of (seemingly) trying to reject the word over and over and over?
Sandra Dodd: I'm not going to stop using plain English to make you and Misa and Frank feel better.
Misa: However, I'm trying to expand my definition of "spirtituality" to include things like mindfulness, wonder, attunement, etc.
Sandra Dodd: YOU GUYS need to get over your problem, because you have children.
Rippy1: For me, Alex, the word spirituality spills into other things - for example I can't tell in my family what is spirituality and what is unschooling. When I'm talking about either one, there is so much spill over that I could easily be talking about the other. And I know from your writings on Always Learning, a lot of what you say would go into my 'spirituality' box just as easy as it would in my 'unschooling' box
Sandra Dodd: And if you're crippled, intellectually and emotionally, by your personal trauma, hanging on to that does not help anyone.
Monica I: Rippy, I agree. I was sort of hoping that was what we were going to get to today.
Sandra Dodd: Seeing a child as a whole person, gently, directly and deeply, is about his spirit.
Teresa Youngblood: Misa, where I live, there aren't unschoolers with kids the ages of mine that I know of. So, our friends are from the secular homeschooling group. There's a nice description on that group that says something to the effect of "some of here are religious, and some are not, but we don't homeschool from a religious perspective in order to limit our children's exposure to the world." That helped me to find some common ground.
AlexPolikowskyz: does it not go back to what the definition of the word is then?
Sandra Dodd: It's not about logic.
Sandra Dodd: Monica, where are you? Is it still today? Is the chat over?
Sandra Dodd: Did you read the link before you came here?
Monica I: I did read the link. Maybe I was mistaken. I thought the chat ended in a few minutes. No gripe, just wondering if we could do this again b/c it seems like a big topic.
Sandra Dodd: -=-I was sort of hoping that was what we were going to get to today.-=- I'm not happy with this.
Sandra Dodd: it IS a gripe.
Sandra Dodd: No. Honestly at this moment I don't feel like ever doing a chat again.
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Monica I: i just wanted to talk about the crossover into unschooling
Sandra Dodd: There are half a dozen links above that you can read that involve the crossover into unschooling.
Rippy1: That's what I mean Misa - I think when a word makes people uncomfortable, they start tuning out or feeling panicky. So just like we do with all things unschooling related, it's good to untangle things. For some people it's television and video games and candy, but for others it might be spirituality and religion. Which I can understand might be much more difficult.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe go up and click on the links Rippy and I brought and read them later.
AlexPolikowskyz: If "spiritual' is what we talked about here I am ok with the word. I do used "good for my soul" or "good for the soul" . :0
Sandra Dodd left the chat 3 hours ago
Monica I: I did read them but its not the same as dialog with other people.
regan: Is everything ok?
AlexPolikowskyz: We did talk about it. We talk about how we changed and became more mindful, grateful , yes spiritual ( there!
) because of unschooling1
Monica I: dunno. i don't think so
AlexPolikowskyz: I know I have.
Monica I: yes, alex. i think that was a great beginning.
Capn Franko: My internet is being glitchy (why I dropped out earlier) and I hafta pack to go to San Diego for a long weekend with Ronnie. See y'all later.
Misa: I'm really interested in "connectedness". Maybe that's spirituality. I'm definitely working on not tuning it out.
Misa: (Spirituality in general, I mean.)
AlexPolikowskyz: This chat , athough I batted the word Spiritual, has been really really good for me. I know I am going to be thinking even more about it and letting go of my issues with the word. SO thank you for being patient with me. Thank you Sandra and Rippy.
AlexPolikowskyz: Enjoy Frank!
Teresa Youngblood: I'm going to go make some lunch for my littles. Thanks for the inspiration
today, all!
AlexPolikowskyz: bye
Marta Pires: I'm off to play with little kids.
Bye everyone!
Capn Franko: I intend to. Warm sunshine, family, and unschooling friends. Yahoo!
Rippy1: Thank you everyone!
Parvine: Thank you everyone, bye!
Robin B. left the chat 3 hours ago
Misa: Thanks everyone. This chat has given me a lot to think about.
Misa left the chat 3 hours ago
Kristiva left this message 3 hours ago:
