| MORE INFORMATION ON THIS TOPIC: sleep sleeping sleep in history and culture |
Sleep/naps chat December 19, 2012
Holly: Today's unschooling topic is Sleep/Naps/Letting people sleep (http://chatnotes-unschooling.blogspot.pt/2012/12/sleep-peaceful-homes-naps.html).
Holly: 156-161 in Sandra's Book.
Marta BP: Hi ladies!
Holly: Sandra is going to Wyoming* to try and pick something up she needs for her Symposium. Marty was going to go for her but he is ill and too sick to go out today.
Holly: *Wyoming Blvd. about 2 or 3 miles away from our house.
Jill Parmer: oh phew, the Wyoming threw me, thought she'd be driving by my house!
alexPolikowsky: Oh Wyoming BLvd!!!! That is better!
Holly: We all had breakfast together and figured out this plan, so I'm filling in for her here until she gets back. :)
alexPolikowsky: thanks Holly!
Marta BP: Nice to "meet" you Holly! :)
Holly: We were joking about how "go to Wyoming" seemed like a much bigger venture than the errand really is.
Holly: Hi, Marta! You too.
Holly: But I thought even going to Wyoming Blvd. seemed like too much to put on Marty today. I do hope he feels better soon. I think he has some shopping stress, but everyone get sick, right?
ColleenP (NH): Hi all - and nice to meet you Holly!
alexPolikowsky: Yep. Gigi was not feeling too good today either.
alexPolikowsky: I hope Marty feels better soon.
alexPolikowsky: I even wrote about Daniel being all sweet to her:
ColleenP (NH): Yes feeling sick is no fun - hope Gigi and Marty both feel better asap!
Holly: I slept a long time yesterday, I even slept through guys coming and fixing our roof in the morning. Sandra was up around 2am, through the roof guys, we both shopped together in the afternoon, made dinner and ate together, I went to work last night and Sandra was still awake when I came home-- I was not expecting to see her again until today, but she was working on a Just Add Light post about "listening'
Holly: She is making me a custom Christmas gift and worked on it for a long time yesterday and last night. It's a green bath robe and I'm so happy she knows how to sew and is able to do that stuff for me in this busy month we are having.
alexPolikowsky: I heard from her she has been having some insomnia . I can relate.
alexPolikowsky: My mom can sew. I can do some ok hand sewing. Like buttons and hemming. Gigi likes to sew too.
Holly: She was almost always awake before I wake up. Usually if she is in bed when i get up it's because she was up early and gone back to bed. Nice that our schedule around here allows for all types on sleeping times.
Marta BP: :)
Jihong: Hi, ladies. I have a question :)
Holly: Is* almost always awake before me, is what I meant to say.
alexPolikowsky: Yep sleeping schedules in my house are all different too. Specially in the winter.
Holly: Hi, Jihong, we're ready...
Jihong: I love sleeping with my son and daughter. Daddy has been pressuring my son (7) to sleep on his own. I asked my son, he said he would sleep with me unitl I die. :)) so my question: will the kids choose to sleep on their own eventually?
alexPolikowsky: I do not think Marty or Holly still sleep with Sandra :)
Holly: Does your son have his own bed as an option to easy crash if he wanted to?
alexPolikowsky: Jihong My son started sleeping in his room at 9 or a little before that. On his own. I actually tried for him to come sleep with me more but he was done.
Jihong: yes, it is right in my bedroom
alexPolikowsky: Does he have a bedroom just for him ? I mean all decorated with a bed he loves ( we bought Daniel a bunk bed he wanted ) ?
Jihong: my nephew still sleeps with his mom at almost 14. To me it is a little bit too old for that?
Holly: I think it's hard to get OUT of a routine-- if the kids are with you in a big bed in your room, and the bed is not going anywhere and you not about to pressure them change the routine then it's hard for kids to see how things could be different.
Jihong: No, he doesn't have a dedicated room, because he is afraid to be in a room by himself even during the day time.
alexPolikowsky: Does the dad sleep with them?
Holly: I had my own bed at age 5 and still would go to my parents room regularly in the night. I have a memory of staying in that bed all night once when I had a tooth under the pillow...
alexPolikowsky: I would still make him a dedicated room! He does not have to be there alone at all. But a cool room to play with friends is awesome. I made one for my son when he was like 4.
Jihong: Alex, you mean my nephew? yes, sometimes all three sleep on the same bed, sometimes the dad sleeps in the other room. When my nephew was with us, he would choose to sleep on the floor with us instead of alone in the other room, because he is afraid alone
alexPolikowsky: If all are OK with your nephew sleeping arrangements than nothing is wrong.
alexPolikowsky: You can also go visit a partner in the other room after kids are asleep and then come back.
Jihong: it is my husband who thinks it would be pychologically damaging for a 7 yo boy to sleep with his mother
alexPolikowsky: Daniel's room had his toys, his TV with satellite and DVR, his PC and all he loved. He still slept with us and I was happy but then he started falling asleep there , sometimes with me next to him, and he was happy about it and never went back
Jihong: my husband sleeps alone because he is super light sleeper. It is not that he wants to sleep in my bed :)
alexPolikowsky: Have you asked him why?
alexPolikowsky: WHy he thinks it is damaging?
Jill Parmer: Jihong, why does your husband pressure your son to sleep on his own? (own bed? or in own room?) Independence? fears he won't grow up? Thinks it's weird? Seven is still pretty young.
Jihong: I guess it is the whole Fleud thing
Jihong: one of the pychologist friend of his warned him that my son would have problem relating with women if he continues to sleep with me
Holly: I think if you and the kids tried other arrangements, like a sleepover in the livingroom, it could let your kids see that there are lots of ways to sleep other than all in one bed-- like if someone was on the couch and the other two on the floor for example.
Sandra Dodd joined the chat 26 days ago
alexPolikowsky: I think it would be less damaging if you had a mother that slept with you because you needed than a mother who made you sleep alone and scared in another room. How is that for a first relationship with a woman?
Holly: I think it's important for mom to maintain relationship with dad too though. Not fair to just slap him with "that doesn't make sense" when it seems to be a real concern to him.
alexPolikowsky: I would create that wonderful bedroom for your son. I would let him play there but never force it. I see you already have a bed for him in your room. Have a bed for him in his room. One he picks up. I
Sandra Dodd: I just read to catch up. Jihong, I used to think that too. My first husband (I was married from 21 for a few years because a family I knew had become orphaned and the state wouldn't let the older brother have custody of the youngest two because he was unmarried).... his brother had slept with the mom after their dad had died, so he slept with his mom from the ages of five to seven, when she was around. She was out "meeting men" in other states sometimes, and she was when she died, too. I'm telling this story because it wasn't necessarily great mothering I'm telling about.
Jihong: I don't have any problem. When I grew up in China, out of necessity, lots of times, people all sleep in a big bed. I didn't see any damaging effects. But the pressure is there, and I don't want my son think it is not normal for him to sleep with me.
Sandra Dodd: She died of complications from tummy-tuck surgery, which she had to try to find a boyfriend, but she was only dating wealthy men from distant states.
Sandra Dodd: But I thought she was making a terrible mistake having let that boy sleep with her. And I was very wrong. But that was the thought in the day, and if Scott's psychologist friend studied before the 1980's he was steeped in that stuff, too.
Sandra Dodd: In India families sleep together. I saw the bedroom at one house, with teens.
Jihong: Scott's psychologist friend was in his 80s when he talked to us about this
ColleenP (NH) joined the chat 26 days ago
Sandra Dodd: It was about the size of two living rooms here, and there were five beds, all sorts, mis-matched, one with curtains or mosquito net, some bigger, some singles, all lined up across the room. :-) It was great.
alexPolikowsky: jihong , growing up in Brazil we all had our beds in our bedrooms but we would go to our parents room a lot. Specially my brothers loved to sleep with them. They were still doing in their teens!
Sandra Dodd: Tell Scott that LOTS of those beliefs have been disproven, bu that yes, that's part of Freud's stuff and Freudians are not in favor in the therapeutic community at all anymore.
alexPolikowsky: Both my brothers got married to nice woman and are great dads and husbands.
Sandra Dodd: You could maybe get him a copy of The Family Bed.
Marta BP: Psychologists studying in the 90's also had (a lot still do) those ideas... I know ;)
Sandra Dodd: Germany, England, U.S., probably Canada... it's a narrow strip of countries who think they know everything that have come up with this all-separate-rooms thing. In the late 19th century the justification was "vapors," and contagion. If people slept together they breathed each others' breath, and that was considered to be unhealthy.
Jihong: my concern is that it makes my son feel "not normal" because of the presure and talk. just like my daughter, she got lots of "talks" about her nursing
Jihong: Also seeing my nephew's need to sleep with someone at 13 worries me too. So I wonder if I need to do something to help my son to transit to his own bed. Or just let it happy natually
Sandra Dodd: You happen to have married a conservative, older man, and this is part of the cost of that, Jihong. You could just tell your kids that. Tell them Scott would feel differently if he were younger, but if he was younger he might also be less patient and wouldn't have the big house in Dallas. :-)
Sandra Dodd: (Or whatever.... I have no idea how the house in Dallas is. I'm just saying you could explain to Orion that it's the way Scott is, and he has reasons for thinking that, but you have reasons to think it's not a problem.)
Sandra Dodd: Let it happen naturally. Chinese families with one child can't help being extra protective, and if it's still tradition there to share beds, then they're NOT being "extra protective" anyway.
Jihong: I will let orion know. But it doesn't seem to have much to do with Scott's age. Most of my non-unschooling girlfriends freak out when they know my son still sleep with me
Sandra Dodd: If Scott had an 80 year old friend assure him he was right and you were wrong, that has to do with age.
alexPolikowsky: Jihong at that age I did not go around telling people my kids slept with me. It is just something I only share with like minded people.
Sandra Dodd: Things change gradually. Someone's got to be on the experimental edge, proving that the old way isn't true. :-)
trista joined the chat 26 days ago
Sandra Dodd: I liked Holly's idea of sleeping different places in the house, in different combinations.
alexPolikowsky: Maybe explain to Scott how it is culturally acceptable to you?
Marta BP: Alex, and what about relatives that come to your house and can see your bedroom (and your kids untouched beds) or ask your kids about it?
alexPolikowsky: We had had many different sleeping configurations :)
alexPolikowsky: Kids untouched bed? The bed cannot have been made up in the morning?
alexPolikowsky: They do not know if the bed was made early in the morning or not. :)
Marta BP: Yes, you're right, and I can also have things "prepared" for when they come by.
alexPolikowsky: I do not have to explain anything. You can always say "Oh yeah she slept with me last night, had some dreams"
trista: If people see our master bedroom (a queen with a twin), we just laugh and say something along the lines of, "This configuration makes the best wrestling arena!" in kind of a final way.
Jihong: alex, I shared with my chinese girlfriends and they all turned out to be westernized :) all the separate bedroom, cry it out stuff :)
Marta BP: My parents ask Conchinha directly about it (she's 3).
alexPolikowsky: Yeah I hear you Jihong. I just do not share some things that may sound different than the norm. Honestly if I did not have kids I would have been the one thinking it was wrong. I used to :)
Sandra Dodd
When you make a decision, don't choose what your friends think over what your kids want. That's what will help you not be so worried.
Kids do NOT want to sleep with their parents forever. It just doesn't happen. Not even in one-room-hut cultures. They eventually go to sleep alone, or with other guys and then they get married. (Maybe not Mongolian yurts, in the winter....)
alexPolikowsky: let them ask. Let her answer. Smile. Change subject
Marta BP: Yes, I do that. :)
alexPolikowsky: :)
Jihong: Done with my question, Thank you :P
alexPolikowsky: I thought Daniel would move to his room much later than 9. BUt he was ready and did it. No pressure. I actually would ask him if he wanted to sleep with me and he would want his room.
Marta BP: At 3, she already has this amazing (to me) way of answering their question in a straight-forward and confident way.
alexPolikowsky: Gigi has slept in her bed once of twice alone. She also sleeps with her friends when they come for sleepovers. She had one sleepover at a friends house and had no problems. She loves to sleep with me.
Jill Parmer: That's cool, Marta.
Sandra Dodd: Holly says maybe you could read Orion to sleep in his own bed, and tell him he can come get in bed with you if he wants to (if he wakes up later).
Sandra Dodd: And (Holly continuing to tell me what I should write) then you (Jihong) can see whether Orion's very resistant to that. He might not be.
ColleenP (NH): my son likes having his own bed in his own room - but he loves to come into our room in the morning and hang out and chat and snuggle before the day starts - a lovely way to start the day slowly!
Sandra Dodd: When I was a kid, "go to bed" was a punishment, and so I felt like every night there was a punishment.
Sandra Dodd: My kids liked going to bed, because they were tired.
Jihong: Thanks, Holly. I think Orion is definitely not ready. He sleeps deep and through the night. But if I am not by his side, he would know. He checked on my while he sleeps. :)
Jihong: me not my
Jihong: there were 2-3 times we were not together, he was OK with sleeping with grandma. But if I am around, he wants to be with me
ColleenP (NH): the other day my mother discovered Robbie stays up til 10 or 11 and sleeps til 9ish or later. She started to get upset but then I told her that when I was little and she'd send me to bed, I'd sneak a flashlight and books and such to occupy myself because I wasn't tired til 11ish at least even though she said I MUST be in bed always by 8:30 or earlier. I said it's nice that if he has that same sort of internal rhythm, that he can spend that time at night with us instead of being sneaky. To my amazement, she agreed :-)
Sandra Dodd: Honestly, sometimes a kid would (still, sometimes) say "I want to go to bed," and I'd say, "Wait... could you do this first?" or "Could you stay up a while and help Marty with his game?" (when Kirby could read and Marty couldn't) or whatever. And sleeping became a joy, a happy thing to look forward to.
Holly: I am only thinking that if he has a bed in the same room, there are definitely ways to experiment with it! In the same room. : )
Sandra Dodd: They didn't have the urge to stay up late just because they could or to prove they were independent, or "grown." It doens't make sense.
alexPolikowsky: my kids have asked to go to bed since they were little if they were tired. Usually I knew but sometimes I would get distracted with something and they would ask. Going to bed is nice and warm and snuggling up with mom is sweet. Gigi reads me books now.
Sandra Dodd: But I didn't know that would happen, when they were little. It's very cool that it does
Jihong: Got it, Holly. I will try that
Sandra Dodd: Cool, Colleen.
Jill Parmer: Nice, Colleen. I love it when the logical makes sense to critics.
Sandra Dodd: And without the need to "get up for school," the whole early bedtime by grade level doesn't make any sense.
alexPolikowsky: I agree with Holy.
Sandra Dodd: Elementary kids at 8:00, jur. high at 9:00, high school at 10:00 or whatever families came up with. (Still do, no doubt, in houses right around me.)
Jihong: We don't have fixed bedtime, but we usually go to bed the same time...going to bed is never a struggle for us. It is pleasure. And waking up can be struggle for me. Kids get up earlier than I was ready to get up, I would be in touble (irritable). So I need to be more disciplined with my own bedtime, so I have energy for the kids
ColleenP (NH): Yep it was pretty cool to hear her voice change when she "got it" :-)
Sandra Dodd: The purpose of sleep is to restore and refresh our bodies. It's biological.
Sandra Dodd: It's not cultural. It's as real as eating and as looking around and as talking.
trista: my kids love to hear about when I had to go to bed at 7 (about the same time they're eating their evening snacks now) and I lay there counting white dots with my eyes closed for hours until I could fall asleep.
Jihong: I remember the torture I had in kindergarden. all kids needed to lie down after lunch. lying there for 1-2 hours without sleep and movement was pure torture
ColleenP (NH): speaking of cool grandparent moments - it's not about sleep - but today my husband's dad arrived from Miami for 10 days, and we took him to an old cemetery in MA from the 1600s to look for cool graves. He said to my husband in Spanish "this is so great - it's exactly like a history class only with more fun and no class!!" Perfect unschooling-in-action moment!!
alexPolikowsky: Jihong what has helped me was to get up earlier than they did and have a half an hour to an hour to fully transition to wake up mode and have some breakfast with some protein. That helped me more in keeping a good mood then sleeping in.
Marta BP: So cool, Colleen. :)
alexPolikowsky: Cool Colleen!
alexPolikowsky: I am an older mother so I needed to find a way to have more energy :)
Sandra Dodd: -=- "this is so great - it's exactly like a history class only with more fun and no class!!"-=-
Sandra Dodd: -=- "this is so great - it's exactly like a history class only with more fun and no class!!"-=-
Sandra Dodd: When we were in florida I found an octopus (it found us; it was in my shoe, in the bucket, when Holly and I came back from the water.
Jihong: great, Alex! the other day I was watching two WWII movies about tank battle (my fav subject) after I introduced world of tanks to my son. Next day, I was not in my best mood due to lack of sleep #:-S
Sandra Dodd: I was really excited, and showed the other people who were on the beach.
Sandra Dodd: There was a family with a kid. I didn't know for sure whether they were from the conference. They weren't. The dad said "This is better than school!"
ColleenP (NH): an octopus on the beach is definitely better than school! :-)
Sandra Dodd: When someone says something like that though I see how far our family is from where we would be if my kids had been in school.
Sandra Dodd: And when I was a kid if we found something cool we thought "We could take this to school!"
Sandra Dodd: But now I don't think anything like that. :-)
Sandra Dodd: My parents found a gila monster and donated it to a zoo once.
alexPolikowsky: I am lucky I had a mother that was always finding cool things, finding the wonder around. That would head to the beach when the day was too beautiful to go to school. Who was totally OK if I missed school to do something cool that I liked. That is probably why it comes easier for me some aspects of unschooling.
alexPolikowsky: It is harder if you grew up with parents that only value school as the thing for kids to do and that grades are more important than going to a dog show or exploring something new or cool!
Sandra Dodd: Marty's session is over. He got an A in his English class. I just asked if he knew what he got in math or economics. He forgot to check. These guys don't care about grades. They don't get that the other people around them (even me) see them as something big and bad or glorious. :-)
Sandra Dodd: Alex, maybe you have nature and nurture on your side, for unschooling. :-)
ColleenP (NH): a mother who'd take you to the beach when it was too nice to be in school sounds like a wonderful mother to have!
Sandra Dodd: Personality traits are heritable and "openness to experience" is one of the traits people acknowledge now. So curiosity and creativity are natural, and bigger in some people. Anyone who's ever owned cats, though, should know that some grown cats don't care anything about what's around them, while others want to know everything about everything long after they're kittens.
Sandra Dodd: And it's the same with people, but when we see a dull-eyed bored and boring adult, we look for family or school to blame, or substances, or trauma.
Sandra Dodd: And so there are people who think that if there can be blame and cause, there can also be credit and cure.
Sandra Dodd: Or prevention.
Sandra Dodd: That making sure kids read books but don't watch movies, and that they play outside a lot, or they play with wooden toys instead of plastic toys, they will grow up to be more creative.
Sandra Dodd: Intelligent.
ColleenP (NH): we have 2 cats - one can hardly hold still she's so curious about everything that moves (or doesn't move or almost moves or...). The other is a sleepy cat whose only curiousity is when the next sunbeam will be ready for his nap.
Sandra Dodd: But if the moms are (thinking of a term for lacking-the-analytical-s kill)....
Sandra Dodd: If the moms easily believe those ideas, then maybe the child doesn't have a good chance of being an out-of-the-box critical thinker because the mom isn't.
Sandra Dodd: So nature and nurture will go against the kid looking at something and thinking a new and original thought.
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes people see sleep as something that will make a difference longterm. "Early to bed and early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise" has been recited for 200 years.
Sandra Dodd: It's credited to Benjamin Franklin, but he used to publish all kinds of "wisdom" because he was a publisher. It might be one of those old sayings, because it rhymes well.
Sandra Dodd: Be njamin Franklin himself wasn't a big sleeper.
Sandra Dodd: I've tried to get people to be quiet when others are sleeping. It's easy to forget, especially in afternoons
alexPolikowsky: Yes
Sandra Dodd: For a long time we had a "be quiet until noon" policy--if someone slept past noon, it was okay for the rest of us to play music or run the vacuum cleaner.
trista: okay, I'm off...kids have a list of mods waiting to be installed. Look forward to seeing some of you next week!
Sandra Dodd: Keith HATED that. He went along with it, but he complained. But I've asked him many times to wait until about 9:00 on a Saturday before he used power tools because the neighbors might want to sleep later.
Sandra Dodd: Bye, Trista
Sandra Dodd: But after Keith got used to it, he would remind me to be quiet if someone was asleep.
Sandra Dodd: Lately, Marty goes to bed about 7:00 p.m. a lot.
alexPolikowsky: My kids try their best to not be noisy when the others are sleeping. Daniel is noisier. Just the way he goes up and down the stairs is noisy. Or open and closes the kitchen cabinets. But they try. I keep reminding him and they are nice about it.
Sandra Dodd: Marty works as early as 2:30 a.m.
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes not until 5:00 a.m. :-)
alexPolikowsky: Daniel has been in that ever changing schedule. He is awake now and working into changing back to day time. Dad has really relaxed about it and does not complain at all anymore. Some days Daniel does not want to go anywhere then other days he wakes up and goes help dad for a little bit early in the morning around 6 or so. He also sometimes goes work out with dad. It is much sweeter now that we do not put any pressure on him and he has been so much happier. He is always happy and smiling now. Sweet to his sister. Gives hugs just because.
Marta BP: I remember reading on the Always Learning list about how kids should respect other people's sleep (I think that usually we would be talking about a working dad) and letting it all sink in and I was amazed that Conchinha understood it from such a young age. Of course I helped her a lot, but she seemed to understand most of the times and was respectful.
Sandra Dodd: But how can a child understand it or even want to, if parents are rude to the child?
Marta BP: Yes Sandra.
Sandra Dodd: thousands of times I was told "GET in the bed NOW" and then rudely awakened the next morning.
Sandra Dodd: Sleep can be peace.
Sandra Dodd: Food can be peace
alexPolikowsky: I wrote something about my kids and my sweet life today but maybe I should have used peace. nah. it is peaceful and sweet :)
Sandra Dodd: Holly moved me to another room so she could clean the floor in the front room.
alexPolikowsky: Hi sorry went to put the dog out then in and give some chocolate cake to Daniel as he says he is going to go to sleep in a little while.
alexPolikowsky: Nice of Holly :)
alexPolikowsky: Sandra did any of your kids flip their sleeping hours around then back?
Marta BP: -=-Food can be peace.-=- I liked a lot of what you wrote today on the Radical Unschooling Info page, and I really agree with this one: "A belief that food choices can create perfect health, a calm demeanor, courtesy and creativity is superstition involving sacrifices."
alexPolikowsky: I know people have sensibilities and allergies but is it possible that so many people are really sensible like it seems everyone is lately.
Marta BP: (sorry to go off on a tangent, but it reminded me of that particular on-going discussion)
ColleenP (NH): the food discussions amaze me. Food is so tied up with control for so many folks, that it seems they sort of can't think and they spout all sorts of things that don't make sense instead!
alexPolikowsky: It is like wild fire. Everyone has problems with gluten and grains and dairy. I am not saying because I am a Dairy Farmer!
Sandra Dodd: Wild fire is right.
alexPolikowsky: that is how I feel too Colleen
Sandra Dodd: It will pass in five years or so and they'll be hyper-vigilant about something else.
alexPolikowsky: It was food dyes and not it is grain and specially gluten.
Marta BP: Yes, Alex.
Sandra Dodd: People like that emergency energy. If we lived in dangerous conditions, there would be an outlet for it. But in peace-and-plenty environments, people still have that urge to improve, rescue, preserve, protect.
alexPolikowsky: Not saying it does not exist but everything that happens to the child is blamed on it. Woke up ealry-gluten, woke up late- gluten!
Marta BP: So true, Sandra.
Sandra Dodd: Yes. People need a devil.
Marta BP: I see it all the time!
Sandra Dodd: Have you noticed, too, that the noise and activity is among one gender more than the other?
Jihong: very true. I am not too excited for people to use their energy in that way.
Marta BP: Women.
Sandra Dodd: In a very religious culture, that energy would go toward embroidering altar cloths, making candles, washing and ironing church-clothes. When church is removed from a family, the instinct is still there and then it's channeled toward something else.
ColleenP (NH): I have relatives (including my mother) who are in danger of dying if they get stung by bees. Then there's my son - who hates being stung and it hurts but he won't die. So far. But he could get stung tomorrow and react worse than my mother ever has. Or not. So we keep Benadryl in the house in case since it runs in the family, but we don't avoid every bee. If he reacted severely, we'd take more precautions, but bees would still exist and he'd still play outside. Food still is out there lurking around every corner - people need to take precautions and be aware if true I-can't-breathe reactions run in their family, but the paranoia (especially in families without those sorts of reactions) is amazing!
alexPolikowsky: I do not have an issue if an adult decides they want to eliminate something in their diet. Their choice. It is when they decide for their children. Just last night someone I know from homeschooling locally, Not a friend but a friend on Facebook who says she is leaning towards unschooling posted a photo of her son , who is like 5, in distress over a plate of rice, beans and squash because he had to eat it. Because he only wants hot dogs and mac and cheese. So here is his picture in tears for all to see infront of this plate of food. Very very sad.
Marta BP: Makes sense, Sandra.
ColleenP (NH): Alex that is definitely super sad
Jill Parmer: ((So sorry, had to skip out for a bit. Luke woke up and wanted to talk ... about our video game talk.)
Sandra Dodd: He didn't have to eat it, but his mother made it a condition of... what? Getting to play? Keeping his mother's love? Avoiding a spanking?
Marta BP: So so sad Alex...
Sandra Dodd: I was made to sit in front of many plates of food.
alexPolikowsky: Probably stay hungry, stay on the table till you finished. I do not know. So sad.
alexPolikowsky: I hid the post on my feed.
alexPolikowsky: But she is all into yoga and all this positive energy stuff. Talk about negative energy and she does not even see it.
Jill Parmer: For people like that, that I see on my news feed, I either say something to hopefully put a jolt in the person's thinking or I unfriend. And it makes my news feed much sweeter.
Jill Parmer: I'm finding that so common, Alex, sadly.
Sandra Dodd: But back to sleeping... the same nonsense (without the threat of sudden death) is applied to sleeping.
Jill Parmer: That people who preach positive energy stuff, tend to be quite mean.
Sandra Dodd: Parents will count eight hours and "make" a child go to sleep (as if they could) and then wake him out roughly, eight hours later, and insult him if he's still sleepy.
Sandra Dodd: That happens all the time, all over the place. It's rude. It's awful. It disturbs (prevents) natural cycles. It prevents the child/teen from learning what his body needs.
Sandra Dodd: It is not relationship building.
Sandra Dodd: It is not kind, or respectful, or gentle.
alexPolikowsky: Yeah that Sandra.
Marta BP: I'm so so glad we can do it in this kind, respectful, gentle way. :)
alexPolikowsky: That is why I have some nice friends who are not bad with their kids and are nice in many ways and I can see how my home is so much more peaceful than theirs. Little things make a huge difference.
Jill Parmer: Sandra, this reminds me of something you said last week...
Jill Parmer: That parents and people in general, make all these rules for kids, and manage them as if they aren't human when they are young.
Jihong: the way of how to limit their children from the "violence" is way more violent than the "violence" itself
Jill Parmer: My sleep patterns have changed with age, and with seasons.
Sandra Dodd: Little things that make a huge difference might not be "little things." :-)
alexPolikowsky: One the kids still have bed times. The daughter comes here and is the one who wants to stay awake until one just because she can. Or that spends the whole time looking for candy in my cupboards and will eat non stop and hiding it. Even when I tell it is ok. She is so ashamed of eating or feels guilty I do not know, Last time she was so tired but she wanted to stay awake until one to prove to her dad she could.
Sandra Dodd: Jihong's point, and the point about "peaceful" people being inflexible about the way peace has to be RIGHT NOW is important.
Sandra Dodd: But they're not going to feel guilty about it, because they see it as "responsible parenting."
Sandra Dodd: it's harsh and cruel.
Sandra Dodd: But "responsible."
Sandra Dodd: And my point is that kids will want to sleep, every night, if they're not told when to sleep and where and how.
alexPolikowsky: Yes Jihong!
alexPolikowsky: and it ties up with what Jill said. That they do not see their kids as human beings
Jihong: Yes, Sandra. I dislike "reponsible parenting" more and more in the conventional way
Sandra Dodd: If they see it as something everyone does, something that adults do, they will want to do it.
Sandra Dodd: If they see it as something kids are forced to do by adults who seem not to go to bed at all, they will NOT want to do it.
Sandra Dodd: Lots of kids sleep while their parents are awake, and wake up afte the parents wake up. They might not even see their parents sleep.
Jill Parmer: I don't think it's "responsible" to be following what the next guy is doing, without thinking about it and making adjustments.
Jill Parmer: A lot of kids sleep in school.
Jihong: my kids want to go to bed because they are tired. Or I will move our activities into our bed when I see they are getting tired. I let orion play his computer game in bed as long as he wants. But usually after a while, he just closes his laptop and goes to sleep
Sandra Dodd: "Responsible" means, literally, answerable to someone
Sandra Dodd: Generally in our culture, historically,
Jill Parmer: But not to anyone, right?
Jill Parmer: OOPs...meant Everyone.
Sandra Dodd: people were "responsible" to God, or to their employer.
Sandra Dodd: But I like the idea of being responsible to my kids.
Jill Parmer: Yes, being responsible to the one you are working with.
Sandra Dodd: They're the ones I'll be around for the rest of my life (IF I don't screw it up and antagonize them)
alexPolikowsky: those people really think that they are raising responsible, healthy individuals who will make the right choices , which means the choices the parents think are right.
Sandra Dodd: Many people want to "respond" (be responsible) to their friends.
Sandra Dodd: But the friends probably won't be in their lives for 40 years.
alexPolikowsky: they really think what we do is crazy and irresponsible . I am sure they would think my son will live in my basement playing video games all his life.
ColleenP (NH): I am off to go xmas shopping with my husband, while Robbie and his grandfather play Stratego and eat cake :-) Thanks for chat all and see you next week!
Marta BP: Bye Colleen!
Sandra Dodd: Oh, we're past time! Bye, Colleen. Have a nice shopping trip.
ColleenP (NH): Bye!
alexPolikowsky: Have a nice shopping spree!!
Jihong: another question somehow related to today's topic: my kids don't like to dress warm. When outside is cold they still don't want to dress warm. when inside, they dress minimum. What I have been doing: 1. take clothes with me. once they know how cold it is, they would want to wear more. 2. turn up the heat to 75F inside. But I would like some suggestions on how to get them to wear more inside, so I don't need to keep the temperature at 75, at least save some electricity.
Sandra Dodd: Well, Alex, if he IS, he might also be working at a dairy farm he inherited so if you want to, tell your friends that your friend sandra said to kiss her ass.
Sandra Dodd: (Or not, if you don't think it will add positively to the conversation.
Sandra Dodd: )
Sandra Dodd: Don't, Jihong. Let them wear what they want to. If they say "cold" say "shoes.
Sandra Dodd: Heat at 75 is high. Tell them that. :-)
Sandra Dodd: 70 degress in the summer is comfortable. 70 degrees in the winter can seem a little cool. Maybe talking about it that way would help them explore the ideas.
Sandra Dodd: You could talk about pool and hot tub temperatures. What seems crazy-too-hot in summer will seem great if it's wintery outside.
Sandra Dodd: or "a warm day" in Spring would be a cold day in fall. Because it's relative
alexPolikowsky: LOL Sandra!!!!!!
Jihong: Alex, do you help MD to wear more clothes since you mention he wears shorts on snowy day
alexPolikowsky: Jihong Gigi is always naked in the house and I keep my house at 60 and sure I get the fire place going but still. Did you see the pictures of my son today on Facebook splitting wood? it was 30 degrees here. If they are not cold why do they need warm clothes. 75 degress inside my house would drive me bonkers hot!
Sandra Dodd: Maybe you could get Orion to help you figure out how much more expensive it is (per day, maybe? Or month?) to have it at 75 instead of 70. He's cost-conscious.
Jill Parmer: Luke runs hot, always has. Same with Steve. It's quite a difference from me. I wear extra clothes to keep warm, they wear as little as possible to keep cool. Even in winter.
Sandra Dodd: And how little it costs to put on the long-sleeved shirt he already owns. :-)
alexPolikowsky: I will remind him, I will take extra but He is 10 and if he says he is good then he is good.
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes when Holly comes in without much clothing, barefooted, and says "cold" I'll say "I'd feel sorry for you if you didn't have warm clothes in your room" or something like that.
Sandra Dodd: :-)
Sandra Dodd: Holly's mopping our front room. Her janitorial job is inspiring her to clean things I don't usually clean. Cool.
Marta BP: Conchinha is like that too, Jill! It's winter here and she has a t-shirt on. My mother is always worried that she'll catch a cold, but I try to tell her that if she's cold, she'll let me know.
alexPolikowsky: If Gigi complains it is cold in the house ) and right now it is almost 80 in the family room but it is about 67-69 around the house., I tell her to put some clothes on . We also have lots of throws and blankets around. We love blankets'
Jill Parmer: I used to try to dress the kids, so I would feel warm, that did not go over well.
Marta BP: Ha Jill!
alexPolikowsky: Gigi and I are always warm!!!
Sandra Dodd: So we WILL have helium at the ALL Unschooling symposium here.
Sandra Dodd: I'm relieved. I didn't want to forego that.
alexPolikowsky: People it is all perspective.When we say it is nice outside like today. It is 30 degrees and no wind. I will go out in shorts and tshirt!
Marta BP: Helium?
Marta BP: For balloons?
Sandra Dodd: That's where I was. There's a movement to keep people from using helium for balloons anymore.
Sandra Dodd: Because they need it to cool the magnets on MRI machines.
Sandra Dodd: We discovered a cool thing here once when we had rented helium.
Sandra Dodd: If you put a superball in a balloon and then blow it up (even regular air) it bounces erratically.
Sandra Dodd: Or you can spin it with the ball in it and if there's helium it makes a pattern in the air.
Sandra Dodd: So I wanted to do that.
alexPolikowsky: super cool!!!!!!
alexPolikowsky: I want to do that!!
Marta BP: Cool!!!
Marta BP: I want to do that too here in Lisbon! :P
Marta BP: Or go to ALL in 2014! :P
Sandra Dodd: But I didn't know that there was going to be a worldwide helium problem just as I was ready to arrange for helium
Jihong: Thank you for these suggestions. I am excited to go to the conference!
alexPolikowsky: We have tanks in the farm with liquid nitrogen. That is cold!!!
Marta BP: Lucky you, Jihong! :)
alexPolikowsky: I did not know about this shortage. hummm
Jihong: thanks Marta:)
Sandra Dodd
Marta, if you know anyone who owns a flower shop or is a welder, maybe you could ask them to bring a helium tank for us to use. :-) Welders don't use helium, but they generally have contracts with some gas-supply house (for oxygen/acetylene) and could probably get a helium tank from there. We don't have so much insde space, though, so it might not be a good time or place for it.
Maybe we could do some just for your house, though.
Sandra Dodd: If we buy balloons and get super balls into them, then go to a place that sells balloons and ask them to fill ours up.
Marta BP: Yeah, but don't have much space inside, you're right...
Marta BP: (for the symposium, I mean)
Sandra Dodd: Anyway. As of *yesterday* party city has helium rentals again. They used to, and then didn't for a long time. So I'm thrilled that when I went to buy two disposable tanks (which I didn't want to buy), they were out. So I talked to a willowy anime-haired half-Asian boy (very attractive, very gay, NICE hair) and he told me "Well, we do have the rentals..." WHAT!? They told me they couldn't rent tanks any more! That changed on December 18. WoohooO!! So I'll have more gas, for less money, and no guilt of a disposable tank. I was all giddy.
alexPolikowsky: Well going to go do some doll hair make over with Gigi!!!!! !"
Marta BP: Great Sandra!
alexPolikowsky: OH Anime hair. !!!!! Daniel wants anime hair ! Got to find someone that can cut anime hair around here.
Marta BP: Well ladies, gotta go! Pizza's coming! Yum yum
Marta BP: Sandra, I hope you like pizza! :P
alexPolikowsky: Bye all!!
Marta BP: We're thinking of having a pizza night, when you come. :)
Marta BP: Bye Alex!
Sandra Dodd: Bye, Marta.
