Spouse/Partner April 28, 2016

April 28, Spouse/Partner
Thursday, April 28, 2016
Spouse or partner, peace at home, support, acceptance, avoiding negativity—whatever topics people bring. Preserving good relationships with a significant other.

Some resources:

Spouses—Unschooling can make us better partners!
http://sandradodd.com/spouses

That has links at the bottom to:
Controlling one's spouse [about not trying to do that]
If you're considering separation...
Divorce (Avoidance of, for Unschoolers) 

"If you are choosing to be a mother, move beyond playing at it, and *be* it.
That's from Pam Laricchia, at this page: Are You Playing the Role of “Mother”?

I would like to suggest that people read that and consider not "playing the role of partner" in an adult relationship, but BEING a partner.

And there is a facebook group called Something Sweet for our Significant Other
https://www.facebook.com/groups/sweetnes...

Sandra Dodd joined the chat 6 days ago

Sandra Dodd left the chat 6 days ago

Sandra Dodd joined the chat 6 days ago

Sandra Dodd: Back, without a hat. 

ErinElizabeth: good morning 

Jill Parmer joined the chat 6 days ago

Tinlizzy joined the chat 6 days ago

Sylvia Woodman joined the chat 6 days ago

Sylvia Woodman: Hello!

Sandra Dodd: Greetings, welcome!

Sandra Dodd: Until we have ten people, we can chit chat, so if anyone has a question or problem we might help with, now's a time

Marta Venturini joined the chat 6 days ago

Marta Venturini: Hi everyone! Sorry I'm late!

Serah joined the chat 6 days ago

Sandra Dodd: I got a bed yesterday—a new bed just for myself. A full / double (as they were once called).

Sandra Dodd: We went to Sears to get a plain steel frame for one, and we were going to get one through Costco, but right in front of the door, in Sears, was a floor-display being sold for $495, originally about $1500.

Sandra Dodd: So that was that.

Sandra Dodd: We don't have ten people, but I suppose it is relationship-related.

ErinElizabeth: great timing

Amber joined the chat 6 days ago

Serah: a bed just for yourself?

Marta Venturini: Wow, good deal!

Sandra Dodd: I've been sleeping upstairs in Holly's old room, to be next to where Devyn is deposted at 4:40 each morning, so that if she needs someone I'm near. I wake up at 6:25, she gets up at 6:35, we leave at 6:55.

Sandra Dodd: Meanwhile, in the far other end of the house, Keith wakes up without an alarm between 6:00 and 6:30 and goes to the swimming pool.

Serah: so intricately timed!

Sandra Dodd: but Holly's bed is way uncomfortable, and old, and too soft, and the mattress scoots gradually off the base, and...

Sandra Dodd: I asked her if I could replace the mattress and springs (leaving the frame and headboard) but she doesn't want me to.

Sandra Dodd: I think maybe because she was conceived (in another house, in another room, but in that bed in a way, still)... or maybe she just doesn't like change.

Sandra Dodd: and part 2 of thinking: If Keith needs to take Devyn to school for a few weeks while I'm in England in the fall, she needs to be closer to him.

Sandra Dodd: And when we have company, we need a better guest bed.

Amber: Well if I can, I realized I have an issue where I cook dinner and my 4 year old even refuses to try a bite. And it just riles me up, and I end up asking my husband to help, which frustrates me more since I was trying to cook dinner in order to help him not have to!! I really want to get over this hang up.

Serah: aw  

Sandra Dodd: So blah blah blah, I got a bed and I'll stay in it because it's not so much farther from Devyn, and she can stay in it when I'm gone if she needs to ("stay" for two hours in the morning on school days, I mean)

Sandra Dodd: So Keith and I wondered if it would worry the kids, that we have the permanent means not to sleep in the same bed. Our shared bed is a California King, in a big room.

Sandra Dodd: That's the end of mine.

Sandra Dodd: So Amber has a kid who doesn't like what she cooks.

Sandra Dodd: Amber, feed the four year old, find a movie or game he likes, and eat in peace with your husband.

Sandra Dodd: Don't make food a four year old doesn't like or hasn't tried and attempt to press him to eat it with an audience. That rarely goes well.

ErinElizabeth: Neither of mine like much of what I cook, it's still a work in progress to be okay with that but it's getting easier

Serah: Amber, can you not expect your son to try it. Make him things he likes

Sylvia Woodman: Decide to be ok with it. Your kids won't be so little forever.

Sandra Dodd: Why would a mother be cooking things her children don't like? It makes no sense.

Sandra Dodd: Why would a mother be cooking things her children don't like? It makes no sense.

Amber: well I always think she would like it but she won't even try.

AlexPolikowsky7 joined the chat 6 days ago

Sandra Dodd: Listen here, for fifteen minutes, later:  http://unschoolingsupport.com/food/

Sandra Dodd: No child has ever been four longer than one year.

AlexPolikowsky7: I make different food for everyone some days here.

Amber: So then my follow up is - do you just introduce new food next to food they already like?

Sylvia Woodman: Jim and I like to eat fish. Neither of the kids are interested. We make them things they like to eat, or sometimes get them take out that they love and then, because they are happily eating what they love, Jim and I GET to eat fish!

Sandra Dodd: Some adults don't like to try new foods—not if they need to commit to finishing it, anyway. Maybe a taste of someone else's.

Amber: Or do you make the "new" food for yourself and wait until they ask to try it?

AlexPolikowsky7: You can offer it .

Sandra Dodd: http://sandradodd.com/eating/monkeyplatter maybe

Sylvia Woodman: Sandra once said that when her kids tried new things they might spit it into her napkin if they didn't like it. I've tried that a couple of times with my kids.

AlexPolikowsky7: When kids are older they will ask for new foods.

Serah: i too make different food some days depending on the menu and who likes to eat what

Sandra Dodd: "just" is a red flag. "do you just introduce new food..."

AlexPolikowsky7: Yep Serah!

ErinElizabeth: My (just turned) 6 year old is extremely resistant to pressure to try new things, putting it on his plate is offensive pressure to him. But if it's on the table where he can see it he will, very occasionally, ask to see it. So far it's only resulted in a few tastings but the moment it's offered to him he completely refuses so it's progress.

Sandra Dodd: Unschooling isn't "just" doing anything. It's stepping mindfully toward more and greater peace and partnership—toward an easy environment for learning to hapen all the time.

Sandra Dodd: ppen happen

Sylvia Woodman: I don't "introduce" new foods. Sometimes I buy new things or try new recipes. Everyone is welcome to try or not depending on what looks and smells appetizing to them.

Serah: Usually I make things I like to eat. No pressure for anyone else to like or try it. Now that the boys are older they are better and making things they like if they are not interested in what's for dinner that day.

AlexPolikowsky7: I love sushi and such. One day my daughter asked to try. She knew it was on of my favorite foods. She now loved one type of roll.

Sylvia Woodman: Also, sometimes my kids get inspired to try new foods after seeing foods in a game or movie. Recently my kids have tried a bunch of asian-inspired noodle dishes since they are watching a lot of anime lately.  

AlexPolikowsky7: Kids do ask. They see in in other people's homes (friends and family) in buffet restaurants, on TV....

Sylvia Woodman: In the past we have made Minecraft themed snacks.

Serah: I read somewhere that some kids need repeated exposure before they are even willing to try a new food. My older son was like this. I made broccoli 12 times and offered each time without expectation and on the 13th time he tried it.

Sylvia Woodman: Harry tried some new fruits for him when he was playing Pac Man. Bananas and cherries if I recall....

Sandra Dodd: Serah's right! As kids get older they will, increasingly, be able to make their own food, will already have eaten with someone else, will eventually have plans to go out and eat, and ultimately might not eat with you because your'e not vegetarian/vegan/low-cal​ or something for their current diet.

Sandra Dodd: I've experienced some of all of that now. 

Serah: this was when we he was around 4

Sandra Dodd: Holly doesn't eat chicken anymore.

Sandra Dodd: We went to a local New Mexican restaurant the other day that has traditional local foods, but the meats are beef, pork and turkey.

Sandra Dodd: TURKEY!? No chicken on the menu. I texted Holly. I asked the waitress, and she said (and I had guessed already) that the owner had a pet chicken when he was a young boy...

ErinElizabeth: seeing kids eat different foods in shows has gotten my son interested in new foods too. He will often ask for things that when actually presented with he won't actually try, but again, I take the interest in something new as positive and generally can avoid disappointment that he doesn't actually taste it.

Sandra Dodd: So when we're planning to eat with Holly still, we plan something other than chicken.

Sylvia Woodman: Buffet restaurants are a great idea. We went to one and I told the kids that if they wanted they could just get desserts. Guys what? They got vegetables and meat and other things as well. I think it helped that there was no pressure to eat this or that or only eat in a certain order. I just wanted them to have a nice time.

Sandra Dodd: We took Devyn to Furr's cafeteria for breakfast a couple of weeks ago. I showed her the cakes and pies they always have out. She looked at what Keith was getting, and asked for that, and got seconds. It was cut strawberries and bananas with a slight syrup.

Sylvia Woodman: (Sorry that should say Guess what.)

Sandra Dodd: And she wanted bacon, and eggs. And we didn't press her. And she's a school kid.

Serah: I like to try new recipes. I look for dishes that have things my kids eat incorporated in new ways. More often then not those newbies are a success

Sandra Dodd: Okay! Half an hour in, we shoiuls talk about partnerships with spouses, parent-of-child, partner.

Amber: Thanks everyone!

Sylvia Woodman: 

Sandra Dodd: Maslow's hierarchy of needs says that children need safety and a feeling of belonging before they can learn

Sandra Dodd: http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2013/08/m...

Sandra Dodd: http://sandradodd.com/maslow

Sandra Dodd: Darn. I had hoped I could bring it in here.

Sandra Dodd: I love the addition, in red, which went around the internet a while back.

Sandra Dodd: So right up front I want to say that maintaining a peaceful home environment in which children feel safe and loved isn't separate from unschooling.

Jill Parmer: I make my husband's lunches (and I buy him fun lunch boxes). I used to want to make him a new interesting lunch every day. And he said, Jill, I really want the same thing every day. That definitely makes it easy on me.

JennyC: Sandra, maintaining a peaceful home is so important. The farther we get in this adventure, the more I'm convinced that it may very well be the most important part of unschooling.

Sandra Dodd

 

AlexPolikowsky7: Wifi is peace in our home!

Marta Venturini: 

Sandra Dodd: Jenny wrote "The farther we get in this adventure, the more I'm convinced that it may very well be the most important part of unschooling."

Tinlizzy: So how can we make a peaceful home?

Sandra Dodd: I am ever and always afraid to say so too early, though, because I've been criticized for that more than for any other one recommendation I make. I can say "Avoid divorce if you can," anytime I want to get my butt kicked by divorced moms, on facebook nowadays, but in other places in years before that.

Amber: When I was a new mom, and could only breastfeed while laying down, my hockey fan husband went into the living room and put on headphones in order to watch his game without disturbing me. But then I couldn't even get his attention via text message and in my fragile state I issued an ultimatum that it was either me or the hockey! Well, I'm happy to say that even if my child is too young to count as officially unschooling, it was reading about unschooling that finally got me to change my mind! Thank goodness!!

Jill Parmer: When you're kids get old enough, they start problem solving wifi issues. 

AlexPolikowsky7: I agree. I grew up with great parents but there was some lack of peace from marital issues that created a lack of security. So in one side we had wonderful parents that were supportive and great and very interesting people and in the other we had a mom and dad that did not trust each other and were not in the same side some of the time. That was harmful for sure. Even in a great hime.

AlexPolikowsky7: Home

JennyC: It's helped me keep perspective in those times when I've been very annoyed with my husband or my marriage

Sandra Dodd: The other day on CBS Sunday Morning there was a story about a young man who had a job in a broadway show. He was excited, but busy, and and it showed him making his lunches for the week. On the one day he had off, he cooked and packed up looked like about ten chicken on rice containers, sealed them up, put them in the fridge and freezer. Same lunch for a week. 

AlexPolikowsky7: It takes away from peace and security of the parents cannot be great partners and trust each other fully

Sandra Dodd: -=-So how can we make a peaceful home?-=- By not being negative or critical or whiney. By being supportive of people's interests and not trying to control what other people say and do. That's a little bit of it.

JennyC: Even if it's one sided, Alex, it can help.

Jill Parmer: Yep, Jenny.

Serah: by not nagging

AlexPolikowsky7: yes Jenny!!

AlexPolikowsky7: Or ragging!

JennyC: Not be negative critical or whiney! A million times over. When I'm like that now, because that's not my base point, my family is quick to point it out.

AlexPolikowsky7: By being a really good friend that cheers the other and does not try to change the other.

Marta Venturini: Yes, that has been a big one for me, Alex. Not to try to change Bruno.

Marta Venturini: I had a huge a-ha moment when he went back to smoking a few months ago.

Marta Venturini: I'm glad I knew better and got over my discomfort quickly. 

JennyC: I'd rather inspire change than try to force change, but there was a time when I tried to force it and it wasn't good or peaceful.

Marta Venturini: I have all of you wonderful and inspiring moms to thank, for all that you have shared with us.

Robin B.: Peaceful doesn't necessarily mean "quiet" either! http://sandradodd.com/peace/noisy

Marta Venturini: And also for the way that you have always stressed the importance of looking after our relationships with our spouses.

Jill Parmer: Right back at ya, Marta. 

ErinElizabeth: Things have been much better here since I started accepting him as a whole person who has his own needs and ideas and is as worthy of support and safety from criticism as my boys.

Amber: I want to ask a question and maybe it should be obvious but - I really want to know - when you talk about not being negative - do you mean that you never share your negative thoughts? My husband would probably prefer that I stop sharing them with him, but it's sometimes how I let go of them, by talking about them with him.

JennyC: One interesting thing I discovered is that by being better to my husband, I became better at being good to my youngest kid who is just like him in personality.

ErinElizabeth: try finding someone else to unload on?

Sandra Dodd: I went to get a link to bring here, and it had gone bad, so I hope none of you got an irritating browser problem for it.

Jill Parmer: Maybe you're using him too much. It's draining hearing someone's negative thoughts.

Robin B.: ~ my husband would probably prefer that I stop sharing them with him ~ that's important to note.

Sandra Dodd: Someday the internet will be a junkyard of bad links. 

Robin B.: You could write in a journal.

Robin B.: You could ask a friend.

Sylvia Woodman: I was just going to suggest that Robin. There are even online journals.

Jill Parmer: You could write it on a piece of paper, and burn it.

JennyC: I try not to share negative thoughts with my husband. He wants to fix it and finds it frustrating when he can't.

AlexPolikowsky7: Can you get a friend or therapist to unload those thoughts instead of your husband.

Robin B.: Don't write them in a public blog, though. 

Sylvia Woodman: That's good too. Then you can forget about it.

Jill Parmer: Yuu could look for positive thoughts, and share those.

ErinElizabeth: when I need to complain I usually call my mom or my sister in law. Unless it is something really important that affects him directly and will make our lives better for him to know, I try not to complain to him

Sandra Dodd: -=-do you mean that you never share your negative thoughts? -=-

Sandra Dodd: Give us a couple of examples of what kind of negative thoughts you're sharing.

Jill Parmer: You could take a deep breath, turn sideways, and let that negative thought go right on by. And then look for a positive thought.

Robin B.: Complaining is peace-disturbing.

Marta Venturini: That has helped me a lot, Jill.

ErinElizabeth: that actually is my metric for a lot of things, "will it make our lives/relationship better for me to say/do this?"

AlexPolikowsky7: If I have negative thoughts I stop and think about them and try to see positive hinge instad of holding on to the negativity.

Marta Venturini: More than complaining.

Sandra Dodd: -=-when I need to complain I usually call my mom or my sister in law-=-

Sandra Dodd: try to move toward not needing to complain as much.

Robin B.: Yes.

Robin B.: Sometimes, complaining is a habit.

ErinElizabeth: I don't often, most of my mom calls are about exciting things we've done 

Sandra Dodd: Your mom and sister in law might not like it either. Your relationship with them, and their experience of you and their image of you, could be better if you shared cool things with them, and invited them to share their lives with you.

Jill Parmer: If you feel the urge to complain, think about one little thing you could do to make the situation better, one tiny thing.

JennyC: I complained yesterday, to Robin, and Alex, and Sylvia, and then I did eventually to my husband, but by that time, I'd processed it all and shared it in fact form.

Sylvia Woodman: Absolutely it can affect your world view to focus on the lack.

Sandra Dodd: Sometimes I'm frustrated, but I try to back back away and find humor or a way to distract or short-circuit my frustration.

AlexPolikowsky7: I don't even remember Jenny! I remember the good stuff we talked about.

Marta Venturini: I feel that when we complain, even if it isn't with our spouses, it's like we're spreading this sort of negative energy. And I don't want my mom or anyone to be contaminated by the negative.

ErinElizabeth: with the help of the always learning list I've much improved my ability to let go of negative thoughts and replace them with positive ones

Sylvia Woodman: Better to focus on abundance, happy things.

Robin B.: I have friends that help me turn my negative thoughts around. I do it myself, but when I'm stuck I can turn to them to help me see things in a more positive light.

Sandra Dodd: My frustration is all internal UNLESS I DUMP IT OUT on other people, poor people.

JennyC: Oh, yes, Sandra! I try to share cool things way more than complaining things 

Sandra Dodd: There are people here I've cried to and complained to at one time or another when the "it's not fair"ness of something got beyond my ability to dismiss. (Sorry, and thank you, to you)

Jill Parmer: Yes, humor! Sometimes I think about being a very old gray haired lady sitting in a rocking chair on a porch, and think, I'm going to look back and this is going to be nothing...or quite silly.

Marta Venturini: Alex is one of the best turning-negative-into-po​sitive-and-light people I know 

Sandra Dodd: But it CAN become a habit, and THAT is not fair. 

Sandra Dodd: Not fun, not healthy, not conducive to keeping any friends.

Sylvia Woodman: Everyone has negative thoughts but it's what we choose to do with those thoughts is what makes the difference.  

Robin B.: Jenny, too, Marta!

Serah: My mom complains a lot to me. Mostly about my dad. It's useless and bothers me. But I know she needs to vent and I am her outlet.

Marta Venturini: We're pretty lucky, aren't we Robin? 

Sandra Dodd: The kind of friend who would want to hear you complain all the time probably isn't the kind of friend you want to have longterm.

Robin B.: Yep!

AlexPolikowsky7: If I am being negative and complaining I have some friends 😉That are quick to point out the positive and cheer me up

Robin B.: 

AlexPolikowsky7: Jill is like that Marta! Great to talk to. She calms you down!

Jill Parmer: Yes, Sandra. It's like dumping a bunch of sh** on someone else. Ish.

Sandra Dodd: This is a "How important is it?" move: (Jill wrote Yes, humor! Sometimes I think about being a very old gray haired lady sitting in a rocking chair on a porch, and think, I'm going to look back and this is going to be nothing...or quite silly.

JennyC: I think of those people as the Debbie Downers of the world.

Sylvia Woodman: And the more I hang around with happy, positive, upbeat people the better *I* get at being happy, positive, and upbeat!

Sandra Dodd: So I think this, along those lines, of "how important is it?":

Robin B.: That is good advice, Jill.

Sandra Dodd: if a husband (I'll say husband, but if that doesn't apply at your house, change it yoursel in your head)

Sandra Dodd: is not fooling around with someone else, and brings money home, and isn't in prison, that's good!

AlexPolikowsky7: Yes Sylvia!! Hang out wit positive people!

Sandra Dodd: If he can fix stuff, bonus.

Sandra Dodd: If he likes you, fantastic!

Sylvia Woodman: It's like a muscle. The more I use it the stronger and more flexible it becomes.

JennyC: It's interesting how complaining and ranting about things or people can put people in a tailspin.

Sandra Dodd: But to imagine that he "gets a ten" in every conceivable category, and then to give him his score by complaining about each way he's imperfect... that's the way to get him looking for someone to have an affair with. Because he wants someone to love him, and be nice to him.

AlexPolikowsky7: Monday at girls scout we all went to have ice cream, kids and mothers. Mothers sit down and start

AlexPolikowsky7: Complaining a bout kids making messes and how the made them clean up

Sandra Dodd: Right in front of the kids they were complaining?

JennyC: I notice it sometimes when I read comments or posts on fb. Someone comes along and "this and that and this and that and blah blah blah" and I can feel my heart beating faster just reading it and I want to reach through and say, "whoa there buddy calm the f*** down"

AlexPolikowsky7: Both Gigi and I got up and thanked everyone and went home! Better to help

AlexPolikowsky7: Dad feed calves than listen to it!

Marta Venturini: Yes, Jenny, I've felt that too.

AlexPolikowsky7: Yes Sandra in front of the kids!

Sandra Dodd: bummer for those families, but good that you had a vehicle and could leave.

Jill Parmer: If I'm wrestling with something or someone, and need to talk it through, I ask the person if I can talk through/complain/wrestle​ again. The people I ask know me well, and will not go down the whining road with me. They challenge me. And some times they say are you done, and go back to what they were doing, without much talk. Most often they challenge me.

JennyC: Calves don't complain and they are cute

Sandra Dodd: Sometimes it's good to have good examples, even if it's only online.

Sandra Dodd: But what can eventually help, after some progress is made, is bad examples like those girl scout moms.

Sandra Dodd: It's the way you can see progress.

AlexPolikowsky7: Very cute Jenny!

Sandra Dodd: Same with marriages. If you see, hear, read, bad examples, and people doing things that make you worry that they might be doing damage to their relationships, it means you know more about how to keep peace than you did before.

Jill Parmer: I would totally want to hang with the Polikowsky's feeding calves than having such sour ice cream.

Marta Venturini: 

Sandra Dodd: So what can we do to be nicer partners to an adult-other?

Sandra Dodd: Food.

Jill Parmer: Coffee.

Amber: Gratitude.

Sandra Dodd: Laundry (not complaining about where you found their socks, thanking them if they did your laundry, putting things away sweetly, not aggressively or resentfully)

Tinlizzy: supporting a interest

JennyC: When I did that interview with Pam about unschooling and teens, I really needed to break it all down to the base and part of that was juxtaposing some really terrible parents, unschoolers and non unschoolers, and I could see exactly what NOT to do, so it made it clearer to see what TO DO.

Sandra Dodd: Remembering their appointments so that you don't plan on top of them, so the car's available, so you can at least say "I hope the meeting goes well" or something that shows you're paying attention.

Marta Venturini: Because I know soccer is important for Bruno (he loves it), I try to know beforehand when the matches are so I can plan things around them for Bruno to be home and able to watch them without interference.

Robin B.: I make Ross his favorite beverage - hot chocolate - even though he can easily make it himself.

Sandra Dodd: Some people need help remembering what they've agreed to do, as they get older, especially.

ErinElizabeth: my husband loves it when I clean his desk and keep a snack pile stocked

AlexPolikowsky7: I wrote not long ago that my sister has said that talking to me helps her be a better mother and wife. That she learned a lot from me about being a better partner. She and I have a lot to improve but we are moving in the right direction. Most women get together and complain about their kids and hisbadn/partner. It is sad. I bail out or poor out the good stuff . People don't seem to like it. They just want to complain

Jill Parmer: Steve loves coffee, and decades ago I needed to find a way to yes to him a lot. And decided that every time he asked if I would make him a coffee, I would say yes, no matter what I was doing. And I imagined putting a little love in each cup.

Sandra Dodd: Keith used to watch NCIS on Tuesday nights, and I planned around it—early dinner, told the kids not to bother him.

Sandra Dodd: He did the same for me on Thursdays, when I watched some regular TV that night.

Robin B.: Ross is a neat person and I am not. But he really appreciates my efforts to keep things clean and tidy (he cleans and tidies, too).

Marta Venturini: Sweet Jill. 

Sandra Dodd: Jill, that love in each cup is very nice.

Robin B.: Jill, that's sweet.

AlexPolikowsky7: Love that Jill!

Sandra Dodd: When I do the dishes, I think to myself that I'm doing it for Keith because he likes the kitchen clean.

AlexPolikowsky7: Both my husband and kids like me to feed them. Even if they can do it themselves. They feel loved.

ErinElizabeth: I really like that and I'm pretty sure my husband will too

Serah: Jill, im going to try that.... love in each cup. so sweet!

AlexPolikowsky7: I help

AlexPolikowsky7: i help

Sandra Dodd: I would do it anyway, but dedicating it to Keith, sometimes, makes me feel better.

JennyC: Sometimes, because I've been doing sweet things for my kids, I forget to do that for my husband, and now that my oldest is older, she reminds me. It's little things, like doing a light shopping trip and grabbing that one thing just for him because he likes it.

Sandra Dodd: Some women would complain about that, or feel resentful, or tell me I'm wrong, but those women are probably divorced.

Robin B.: I remember that when Ross complains or is having a difficult day that I can be supportive instead of annoyed.

AlexPolikowsky7: I help Brian in the farm. He loves that. It makes him happy .

AlexPolikowsky7: That is important Robin. I can be dismissive so I need to work on that. Just listening .

Serah: I'm planning to go camping this summer. It means so much for him to make it a family experience rather then jus him and the boys. I'm gearing up to be positive and joyful through it all.

Marta Venturini: Yes Robin. That has been important for me too. Learning to be supportive and a good listener instead of trying to fix him or be annoyed and pointing out what he could have done differently.

Jill Parmer: Serah, I think the important principle is to do something the person really likes/loves. Steve loves coffee. When a friend relayed my story to another person, that person tried to give her husband coffee, and did not get the same reaction I did. Her husband didn't like coffee so much.

Serah: Arif loves coffee too  

Tinlizzy: a lot of these things are the same as what we'd do for kids...

Jill Parmer: Oh I like that a lot, Sandra. Dedicating a task to your spouse.

Robin B.: That's the problem with "one size fits all" Jill!

Jill Parmer: Oh cool, Serah. 

Robin B.: Yes, Tinlizzy, they are!

Serah: Jill is was a sweet story that i can totally get into!

JennyC: When I'm annoyed I look at him directly. I do this with my kids too. And I notice something I love about him. Yesterday it was him working with his hands, seeing the shape of them and watching him do nimble things. And if he ever loses his hands in a freak accident, I'll have that memory of them and I can appreciate what was lost. That's weird. I know. Sometimes looking at an extreme like that makes me appreciate what IS right now.

AlexPolikowsky7: I get snacks and Diet Coke for brian! He needs his stash of cookies and baked goods!

Sandra Dodd: Tinlizzy, that's the deal. If you can do it for your children and see the benefit, then do it for their dad!

Robin B.: Oh, Jenny. That made me tear up.

Sandra Dodd: Keith hooked up the swamp cooler today. He helped Kirby hook his up a week ago.

ErinElizabeth: that was my best ah-ha moment, realizing that Jason was also worthy of that care and supportive partnership

Sandra Dodd: It's "early" this year, meaning I hadn't mentioned ONCE that it was hot in the house. So that was a gift, because the one he hooked up was the one in the front, not back where he sleeps, which has a different swamp cooler.

AlexPolikowsky7: Yes Erin!! Changed my life. Our life. Our family life.

Sandra Dodd: if you live where there's air conditioning, that's always "hooked up." So maybe it's hard to appreciate swamp coolers for people who don't live where they are, so never mind a nonsensical story, if you don't know what it is. 

Marta Venturini: Same here, Alex.

JennyC: I never knew of swamp coolers until my parents moved to NM. Very few people even have air conditioning where I live.

Jill Parmer: One thing I learned from Sandra years ago, was that if you're having a hard time with your husband, try to think of that sweet boy inside them. That changed my life. And it's so easy to change a cranky attitude with that image.

Sandra Dodd: It involves going up on the roof, and messing with evaporative pads and water and checking the fan and.... I don't do it. Keith and the boys used to do it, but they're gone and now he's doing it by himself.

Sandra Dodd: Some boys have a harsh mom, or an absent mom, or their mom died. They WANT female nurturing, and it's good if they can get it from someone who plans to stay the rest of his life.

AlexPolikowsky7: That also helped me Jill. Because my husband still has that little boy inside of him.

JennyC: So, really nice that he still goes up on the roof and gets things done

Sandra Dodd: Some men were nagged and nagged and don't want to move from the nagging mother to a nagging wife.

Sandra Dodd: So don't be one of those!

Robin B.: Yes, Sandra.

ErinElizabeth: with my husbands relationship with his mom, that's a really good reminder for me

Amber: I have a question regarding supporting interests. My father is deceased but was an alcohol abuser, and I've been thinking about that lately. I know my husband likes beer and I've been pretty supportive of it in the past - but lately I feel myself cringing when he drinks. I'd be interested in everyone's thoughts on how I can stop cringing.

Sandra Dodd: I know that feeling well.

AlexPolikowsky7: I used to act like I was my husband's mother. I treated

Sandra Dodd: When I was first with Keith, a few times he brought liquor into the house, and my internal reaction was WAY out of proportion

Sandra Dodd: Are you husband's parents alcoholics, Amber?

Amber: No

Sandra Dodd: Then don't worry.

AlexPolikowsky7: Him like a child ( before kids!!) I don't anymore. Life is much better and he can be a man and feel good about himself! I stopped ragging

Sandra Dodd: It's hugely genetic.

AlexPolikowsky7: On him

Sandra Dodd: People like to deny that, but it seems to be the case.

Sandra Dodd: Even if he drinks a fair amount in his 20's or 30's, it will likely settle out or cease when he's older if his parents weren't alcoholic.

Sandra Dodd: I could be wrong, but it seems to be that way.

JennyC: And sometimes, when abuse of drugs and alcohol isn't genetic, it's environmental, so even better to keep peace and not have reactionary lives of a series of injustices.

Sandra Dodd: My kids have 1 of four alcoholic grandparents.

Amber: That's sort of what I was thinking too, Jenny

AlexPolikowsky7: And making his life sweeter will help Amber. Some people drink to escape. If he is happy he has no need to escape .

Sandra Dodd: My sister's kids had 3 of four, and two of them became addicts (one to alcohol, one to heroin, and both are in recovery)

Sandra Dodd: Some alcoholics will become that no matter how happy their lives are, though, so yeah.... if your life is happy and his parents are sober-ish, I think you can relax your guard.

Sandra Dodd: If he's adopted, then I don't know.

JennyC: Recovery is a hard road. But interestingly, it goes deeply into dealing with life by changing attitudes, just like unschooling

Amber: I think he drinks for stress relief and he never really takes time for himself - could I somehow insist he take time alone??

Sandra Dodd: Kirby went through a phase of social drinking, and having rum and coke daily, but I think he's not doing that now—he sleeps early for early work, and I don't think they're drinking much at the house

Sandra Dodd: Marty drinks fancy beer with Ashlee sometimes, but she diets a lot and beer is bad, then.  I don't think he ever drinks alone, just with her.

Jill Parmer: I smelled alcohol on my kid (21 years old) the other day, and it sent me right back to when I was a kid and smelling that on an alcoholic. I took a moment to breath and talk myself back into 2016.

Robin B.: ~ could I somehow insist he take time alone? ~ Encourage or suggest lovingly. Don't insist.

JennyC: My grandpa drank 2 or 3 beers every day. He was never drunk, that I could tell. He was sweet and kind and did things for others, especially my grandma.

Amber: Thank you Robin 

Jill Parmer: Insist is going to be problematic.

Sandra Dodd: Holly quit drinking completely. She might start again, but right now she doesn't touch it. She works at a brewery outlet, and they had a tasting training of ales and lagers. She was tasting without swallowing, as much as she could, that day, she said.

Jill Parmer: The things people are talking about here, making home life sweeter, is going to help.

Amber: Yes, I sense that Jill!!

Sandra Dodd: My mom drank a case of beer every day, for years. You wouldn't know she was drunk, if you didn't know her until about #8 beer of 24. A case a day.

Sandra Dodd: So I would NOT worry about two beers.

Tinlizzy: It seems that if it is onesided then the best thing to do is lead by example

Amber: thank you, everyone. I'm running out of battery on my phone and might drop out suddenly but thank you so much for this chat.

Sandra Dodd: Within a family, too.... my sister is, and has it. I don't. We're full siblings, but my dad wasn't an alcoholic and my mom was. I got lucky. My sister didn't. So she abstains.

Marta Venturini: With Bruno (when he started drinking beer a few years ago, and then a little bit of whiskey after dinner), it helped me to remember that my dad usually had a glass of wine everyday, at dinner time, and sometimes he would've already had a martini before dinner.

Sandra Dodd: Amber, the transcript will be available later, too.

JennyC: We kept a dry house when the kids were young, on purpose. We introduced it by simply having bar stock items, like a bottle of rum and gin. We've had some of those bottles sitting there for years, barely touched. But I let my kids drink. And my oldest drank a dozen or so times in excess and now is with someone who grew up with alcoholics and hates even the smell of alcohol and so she doesn't ever drink.

Sandra Dodd: So OTHER than accepting a bit of alcohol... back to what we can do.

Sandra Dodd: Someone said gratitude.

Amber: I did 

Sandra Dodd: Sometimes think of something nice to say.

Sandra Dodd: Keith takes great care of our money. He paid the mortgage off early (partly with money his dad left him, but he had already been making two payments a month instead of one)

Sandra Dodd: I've thanked him a couple of times for keeping us from having a mortgage payment, for making sure we wouldn't lose our house.

JennyC: And look for the nice thing that a spouse has done. Mine brings me coffee in bed. That's sweet, so it helps me to remember to do sweet things for him too.

Amber: I know my husband likes when I express gratitude, and I like how it means really seeing him and seeing the good and positive

Jill Parmer: Fill the car up with gas.

Marta Venturini: There's no history of alcoholism on my side of the family (that I know of) but Bruno's mom is an alcoholic and his grandmother was too. His step-uncle had (still has?) a heroin addiction. It wasn't easy for me to understand drinking and smoking but I can see that some things do bring Bruno comfort and that helped me relax.

Robin B.: ~ It seems that if it is onesided then the best thing to do is lead by example ~ Tinlizzy, do you mean "don't drink"?

Sandra Dodd: he's been working in the yard lots lately—part of the cleanup is putting sticks in baskets, and I can burn them next fall when the fireplace is in use again.

Jill Parmer: Have some easy-to-grab snack on the counter or in the fridge when they come home.

Robin B.: Keep favorite foods and drinks in stock. Make a favorite meal.

Sandra Dodd: They look pretty, too, piled up in the woodshed. Various and assorted baskets we had, or from thrift stores, or like the baskets houseplants used to come in, or imperfect wastbaskets. And he sits and breaks up sticks, and cleans up the corners of the yard with sticks in woodpile, leaves and weeds in compost.

JennyC: So, often, because I know my husband gets up before me and brings me coffee, I make it a priority to keep the kitchen tidy.

Sandra Dodd: Good thinkin,' Jenny!

Marta Venturini: Bruno takes care of almost everything car-related and I thank him for that.

Tinlizzy: I was think more general sorry to have stuck it in the middle there.

Amber: (I do have step-siblings that I didn't grow up with who have heroin addictions & other issues but it seems to come from having strict Mormon grandparents rather than alcoholic or drug addict grandparents)

Robin B.: No worries!

Sandra Dodd: Those strict Mormon grandparents could have the genetics for alcoholism. LOTS of fundamentalist Christians in the SE U.S. pass on the gene even though for religions reasons they don't drink.

Robin B.: Yep.

Amber: oh thats interesting, I hadn't considered that

ErinElizabeth: the idea of leading by example has been more trouble than help for me as it kinda gets me stuck watching to see if they're "following my lead." I've had better success deciding how I want to be and accepting them where they are.

Sandra Dodd: And a horrible side effect of the nature/nurture situation in the southeast is that if/when someone leaves the church, he sometimes goes straight to a bar and stays there for years.

Sandra Dodd: He's being reactionary AND might've come from a bad genetic base.

Tinlizzy: To a certain extent liquor is just another beverage.

Sandra Dodd: lots of the uber-religious folks came (two or three hundred years ago) from Scotland and Ireland. They were religious and so they came here, or they came here and then moved into a southern town in which if you don't go to the right church, you might not get a job or a good wife.

Sandra Dodd: So they go to church. That problem is not universal.

Sandra Dodd: My brother-in-law did it, in South Carolina. He grew up Presbyterian, but married someone in SC and became Baptist, and was elected to the city council.

Robin B.: ErinElizabeth, I was thinking about that, too. That leading by example can become manipulative ("you should be like me"). It doesn't have to be that way, if there are no expectations.

Sandra Dodd: So hypocritical. Or not that... so.... what? suck-uppy? Fawning? Manipulative?

Sandra Dodd: He didn't care about that church. He saw that it was what people did to advance in that community. 

Sandra Dodd: -=-Tinlizzy: To a certain extent liquor is just another beverage.-=-

Sandra Dodd: for some people, it always is.

Sandra Dodd: For some people, it's not.

Sandra Dodd: If kids can see that not everyone drinks, not everyone is negative, not everyone gets divorced... THAT kind of example setting is great.

Sandra Dodd: Does someone here remember the link from the past week of a marriage site (in Australia maybe?) someone brought to a discussion? That was a good one.

Sandra Dodd: And there was a quote brought that one person can make the difference.

Tinlizzy: Ok so no expectations but what about a peaceful home? What if he is resentful and often short tempered that doesn't lead to a peaceful home

Sandra Dodd: I'd like to have that that quote in here.

Tinlizzy: Al turtle?

Sandra Dodd: Yes!

Marta Venturini: www.alturtle.com

Sandra Dodd: Thanks.

ErinElizabeth: do what you can to remove his triggers and promote peace that way

ErinElizabeth: just like you would do for your child

Sandra Dodd: What do you expect us to say to this? "What if he is resentful..."

Marta Venturini: The quote: 

"After many years of working with couples, I have come to this conclusion. It takes two people to start a Marriage, or an intimate partnership. It takes both to decide to divorce and carry the splitting through to its end. But it takes only one of them to lead the way into a great relationship. The idea is that either one of you can stop a divorce from happening. This idea has, over the years, proved to be my most upsetting contribution to couples work. More people have written me about how angry the thought makes them. Great! Get angry, but please engage this idea, and its truth."

—Al Turtle

Sandra Dodd: Thanks!!

Marta Venturini: You're welcome 

Sandra Dodd: If he was resentful last week or this morning, it will be better after you incorporate all the cool ideas people brought above. It might not be better this week, but will you give up?

Sandra Dodd: Unschooling doesn't start working the first day.

Tinlizzy: I'm thinking about the outcome.... Anger , yelling, little patience..., not peaceful

Sandra Dodd: It takes a while, and it takes LOTS of change in the parents.

Sandra Dodd: I don't know what you mean "the outcome."

Amber: That's such a powerful concept - that one part of the partnership can make a difference.

Sandra Dodd: We're talking about things you can do to change the atmosphere of your home, and to be a better partner. That's what you should be looking at.

Serah: great quote Marta!

JennyC: That yelling and anger may be his way of venting. It's not a useful tool, but it very well may not be about you at all.

Sandra Dodd: If you were telling us all about how your child was when he was in school, we'd ask you to stop looking at that, to create a rich unschooling nest, to read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch...

Sandra Dodd: Same here.

Marta Venturini: Sandra remembered it and I went to Always Learning to bring it here.

Tinlizzy: yes Jenny that is what intent

Sandra Dodd: Look at this moment.

Sandra Dodd: Look today at what you can do, not what he's doing or might do or did yesterday.

Sandra Dodd: Unless it's the GOOD things he did yesterday that you can mention in a nice way.

Tinlizzy: What I meant

ErinElizabeth: My husband has a short temper and is pretty explosive. He does his best to not expose the boys to the explosions but when he's upset it can be felt by all of us. Making the home sweeter and safer is something that I can do on my own by helping our very young boys direct their energy is ways that don't provoke dad, I can do sweet things for him so he doesn't feel neglected

Sandra Dodd: It's not as fun to yell if people don't yell back. Don't make it an exchange. Don't provide fuel.

Sandra Dodd: Just as children get older, so do husbands. So do we.

Sandra Dodd: Older, wiser and more mature.

JennyC: You give him a shoulder massage and don't take it personally. Make it a nice meal. Tell him some funny jokes. And if you can't do any of those things, go use the bathroom.

Sandra Dodd: But the way to prevent wiser is to promote stupidity and negativity, so don't.

ErinElizabeth: the changes in our house since I realized that excpecting him to change himself was unfair, and unproductive has been drastic

Sandra Dodd: And the way to prevent more maturity is to encourage immaturity and to waste energy fighting and complaining.

Sandra Dodd: Here's how to screw up unschooling. You could extend some of those things to marriage.

Robin B.: All you can change is you and your reactions and attitudes. Maybe part of that is believing that your husband can change, without trying to make him.

Sandra Dodd: http://sandradodd.com/screwitup

Robin B.: There is always possibility of change for the better.

Sandra Dodd: Remember this, too (or look around you and take inventory of actual examples):

Sandra Dodd: MANY people divorce and remarry.

Sandra Dodd: The problems repeat, because it was largely their shit that caused the problems in the first place, so they re-create the same relationship problems. AND they have an ex-husband.

Sandra Dodd: I could name names. If

JennyC: What I've experienced is that some people are firey and dramatic. My husband is like that. And I keep it in perspective. It used to bother me. And because I've been able to get better at dealing with it, it helps me help my kid that is also firey and dramatic.

Sandra Dodd: If some of you have never seen that, good for you. 

Sandra Dodd: Jenny, that's such a good point.

Sandra Dodd: When I saw, in Kirby nd Marty, things I had not liked in Keith, I was much more sympathetic to Keith. If I could be sweet to the boys despite that habit/expression/trait, then I could remember that Keith probably

ErinElizabeth: I didn't make things better until I stopped even wanting my husband to change, until I let that desire for him to be different go, everything I did even to support him came with the taint of "you're not enough as you are"

Sandra Dodd: was that way since childhood, too

Sandra Dodd: As Keith gets older he's calmer

Robin B.: I think of it as those moments as a mom where you think whatever your child is doing will never stop. And then they know more, get older, change. And that will happen with love and support OR complaining and negativity. The difference will be the relationship you have, as a result.

Sandra Dodd: I saw things in my kids that were great about Keith, too.

Sandra Dodd: Resourceful, thrifty, creative stuff

Sandra Dodd: Strength, that I didn't have.

Sandra Dodd: Also... if the mom nags and the child changes and the mom takes credit for it, the child might try NOT to change in the future in any way that his mom will claim credit for.

Jill Parmer: Same here, Jenny, that personality used to bother me too. And it bothered my husband that that bothered me. He has kind of a loud energetic reaction (happily and crankily) to some things. When I let him be him, and didn't take that personally, it helped so much. And it was quite embarrassing that I wanted everyone to handle things like me. Eeek.

JennyC: For my kids, musical abilities and creativity. I'm not super musical but it sure is nice having live music in my home nearly every day

Sandra Dodd: Don't try that at home with your partner! DON'T claim that you changed him. It's evil.

Sandra Dodd: ErinElizabeth, I like that claim of "taint." Yes, if you're helping your husband and sighing and rolling eyes or whatever, you cancel out whatever "help" it was, I think.

Sandra Dodd: Think of how it could be worse.

Jill Parmer: Also my husband and one of my kids have the same way of handling things, and when they are working together sometimes it looks chaotic and loud to me. And they are two happy clams, that way of interacting does not faze the other.

JennyC: And pretty egotistical to think or believe you have so much power to have changed another person. Only individuals can do that for themselves.

Sandra Dodd: Even if he has or had an affair—I think LOTS of couple who made it 50 or 60 years recovered from an affair, or a bankruptcy, or losing a house, or a child, or something lots of people would have divorced over.

AlexPolikowsky7: Okay I work hard here and my kids love daddy more! There! If they have needs the all come

AlexPolikowsky7: To me

Sandra Dodd: Assuming that Keith wants to get old and be comfortable and have hobbies and hang out helps me decide how to help him.

JennyC: Right Jill... and I can walk away and go do my thing and know they are quite fine without me butting in.

AlexPolikowsky7: But dad is the man!

Sandra Dodd: Alex, that "love daddy more" might not always last.

Sandra Dodd: My kids used to love me more, but they all switched allegiance as they got grown.

Sandra Dodd: I'm a little jealous, but mostly really glad for Keith.

Marta Venturini: 

Sandra Dodd: He wasn't always good at relating to them, and he lived in Minneapolis most of four years in the middle there.

AlexPolikowsky7: Same her Sandra. They have both switched!

Sandra Dodd: You should compete, Alex. Campaign.

AlexPolikowsky7: I am happy for dad and I mostly joke about it but find it interesting.

Marta Venturini: Hehehehehe

Sandra Dodd: Lucky kids, if the parents are competing to be the coolest, the most helpful.

AlexPolikowsky7: Ha!!!

Sandra Dodd: Okay, two hours. Thanks, all.

Sandra Dodd: I hope something helps and nothing hurts.

Marta Venturini: Thanks Sandra, for hosting the chat!

AlexPolikowsky7: Gigi says she loves me .....but daddy!

AlexPolikowsky7: Daniel

JennyC: Thanks!

Serah: great chat, thx!

Tinlizzy: Thanks!

Robin B.: Thank you! Bye everyone.

AlexPolikowsky7: Daniel likes dad more just to be around him now.

Robin B. left the chat 6 days ago

Sandra Dodd: Once when Holly called recently on the house phone and Keith answered first, I picked up an extension and Holly said really hatefully that she JUST wanted to talk to her dad.

AlexPolikowsky7: Bye all!!!!

JennyC: That's cool though Alex!

Sandra Dodd: But other times, other topics, she calls me on my cell and talks for a long time.

ErinElizabeth: Thank you, this has really helped put me in a "what can I do right now to make things better?" frame of mind

AlexPolikowsky7: Ha! Yep . I can relate!

AlexPolikowsky7: I

AlexPolikowsky7: yes when they need to be cared

AlexPolikowsky7: For it is mommy

AlexPolikowsky7: but daddy is cooler.

Sandra Dodd: "Do it for the kids" might help, if you're having a hard time being nice to an irritating husband in an irritating moment.

Serah: it's like that here too, Alex!

Sandra Dodd: And things will get better even if you DID just do it for the kids' sake, I think. It might. 

AlexPolikowsky7: Mysteries in Korean Drama awaits me and some Brazilian Brigadeiros inpromissed to make for the kids!

Serah: bye everyone

Tinlizzy: The Al Turtle link is great

AlexPolikowsky7: I make a choice to love Brian and keep the family happy. My kids would be devastated if we are not together. So I do do it for the kids. I make that choice when I am not feeling nice , to be nice to Brian and our relationship.

Sandra Dodd: I liked that site and should look around it some more.

Jill Parmer: Bryan rocks!

Sandra Dodd: Now that our kids are gone, Keith and I are getting along better than ever since we were a new couple, so it's nice.

Sandra Dodd: Probably nicer than we were then.

AlexPolikowsky7: See another Brian fan!

Sandra Dodd: He is kind of awesome.

Sandra Dodd: I can't believe you ever ragged on him, Alex. Heartless.

Jill Parmer: oops. Brian.

AlexPolikowsky7: That is sweet Sandra!

AlexPolikowsky7: I have always been known to be mean to my boyfriends. Brian is getting the best treatment ever!. Thanks to Unschooling!

Sandra Dodd: I got cranky with Keith for buying clover sprouts, but telling me he had bought alfalfa sprouts. I needed alfalfa sprouts.

Jill Parmer: Alex, you floor me.

AlexPolikowsky7: Well going to make some super delicious Brigadeiros! Did I make some for

Sandra Dodd: So I ate clover sprouts, but didn't think happy thouhgts of Keith.

AlexPolikowsky7: You Sandra and Jilll?

AlexPolikowsky7: The fudge balls?

Jill Parmer: No.

Jill Parmer: And now I feel cheated.

Sandra Dodd: So I just finished the second batch of do it myself alfalfa sprouts, and now I love keith and feel like a dumbass that I didn't' just make my own sprouts last week.

Jill Parmer: darn you Alex. (I'm craving chocolate at the moment.)

Sandra Dodd: Not the second batch ever, but the second batch this week.

AlexPolikowsky7: Okay okay! I need you guys to come visit again!! Brian would love that!

Jill Parmer: Comes back to bite you in the butt, Sandra.

Sandra Dodd: I started some more before the other set was done, so we'd have lots.

Sandra Dodd: I know. And who cares? We have a compost pile. If worms eat clover sprouts or extra alfalfa sprouts they will be as happy as worms can be.

Jill Parmer: Thanks for the chat!

AlexPolikowsky7: When Brian buys the wrong stuff I am not able to keep my mouth shut 99.9% of the time. Before I used to get cranky too

Sandra Dodd: Alex, it's so much work to do a conference, but it was nice that you did that and that Jill got to go with me.

AlexPolikowsky7: I know!! I need to come visit you! But maybe we will

AlexPolikowsky7: Just go to Korea together!

Sandra Dodd: You can't visit because of cows.

Sandra Dodd: You can't go to Korea because of cows.

AlexPolikowsky7: But I still will come visit you!

AlexPolikowsky7: I can visit. Brian is the one who stays home!

AlexPolikowsky7: I am just a farm hand. Not a herdsman like him.

Sandra Dodd: Okay. 

Sandra Dodd: Thanks for being here. I'm going.

Sandra Dodd left the chat 6 days ago

AlexPolikowsky7: By the way I really loved Kirby's story!

AlexPolikowsky7: Bye!!!