Principles of Learning

I started off calling this "Principles of Unschooling," but because of the chat itself, I'm going to say that these are about learning, and not so much about unschooling. Maybe you'll agree, or maybe you won't. Either way's fine.

—Sandra Dodd

NOTE: The missing-images markers were smiley faces (most, anyway).

---

Principles of Unschooling, November 25.
We will look at the list of principles Pam Sorooshian created. It's here:
http://sandradodd.com/pam/principles.html

Sandra Dodd: I'm eating and uploading the first photo Holly has sent from India.

[I was having a hard time uploading the photo, but here it is]:

Sandra Dodd: http://sandradodd.com/holly/lotus.jpg and her note to me was "My camera is awesome." That's all she's written since she tweeted about hoping to get a real-sugar coke in the UK, while she was in NYC.

Heather C: My 12yr old son spent 3 weeks in NY this summer and loved it!!

Sandra Dodd: Holly spent an hour and a half there, just to change planes.

Heather C: 😉

Rippy: Did she see Julie or was she on the other side of customs?

Sandra Dodd

Perhaps her camera is so awesome that the file is more than 5MB.
London, two hours.

Sandra Dodd: In January she has an overnight in London and Julie's planning to retrieve her and take her home for the evening.

Sandra Dodd: And it's curry night at Julie's, too.

Sandra Dodd: We're planning ahead. 🙂

Marta Pires: Hmmm, curry night, yummy. 🙂

Misa: Curry. Yum. I might make curry with the leftover turkey.

Rippy: That will be fun! A yummy curry night and a nice sleep before she heads home.

Rippy: Or maybe she'll be done with curries by then and want a cheeseburger. In fact, I think that might happen.

Rippy: Or pizza.

Rippy: Or pasta.

Marta Pires: Now I'm getting hungry. 😜

Rippy: Me too!

Rippy: Heather, did your 12 year old go to NY without you this summer?

Heather C: My parents took him

Misa: Kai would choose curry every day, if he could.

Sandra Dodd: That was it. It was 7.3 MB, her awesome-camera photo of a lotus.

Parvine: One of my kids likes big bowl of pasta, half the bowl tomato sauce and other half pesto sauce.

Rippy: Oh fun!

Heather C: Yes, they live across the street and are big part of our unschooling

Jaclyn Koehl: I could go for some curry right now!

Marta Pires: Sounds yummy, Parvine!

Marta Pires: We are huge pasta-and-tomato-sauce-a​nd-pesto lovers around here! Just never tried them all together though.

Rippy: My mom usually comes and lives with us for 3 months most years and then is a big part of our unschooling during that time.

Misa: I'm having cake. My birthday was this weekend and my husband made me a cake on the weekend: vanilla cake with a cookie "dough" layer and cookie crumbles for the top.

Misa: (My birthday was yesterday. But the celebration was this weekend.)

Rippy: Happy birthday Misa!!! I hope you have a wonderful year 🙂
|

Sandra Dodd: Oh. I hadn't thought of the [what's the economics term?] deflated value? of curry on the way home from India!  🙂

Jaclyn Koehl: diminishing returns?
[YES!  But I didn't notice Jaclyn's comment during the swift-moving chat.]
!

Rippy: I have a huge list of foods that I want to eat when I leave India and curries are not on the list.

Misa: Ha ha. I can imagine, Rippy!

Heather C: We have friends from Sri Lanka and their cooking is amazing. Slightly different then Indian food but still very good.

Rippy: We almost always add pesto to our pasta sauce now. My friend Beatrice in Dublin makes her pasta like that and it's very yummy.

Sandra Dodd: I know it's time to start the topic, but give me a few more minutes, please.

Parvine: It's such a blessing when grandparents are part of our unschooling lives. We are staying with my parents for a few weeks at the moment. Its very special weeks.

Marta Pires: 🙂

Rippy: Oh yes. I love Sri Lankan food as well. Actually most food from Asia.

Rippy: Take your time Sandra!

Heather C: Yes it is amazing the things that are children learn from the people around us family and friends

Rippy: Parvine are your parents supportive of unschooling?

Rippy: My mom took a while, but she's pretty supportive now. So are Graham's parents.

Rippy: I have a feeling that Indian (maybe Asian parents in general?) would have a more difficult time with it since it's so the opposite of what they have always believed.

Parvine: They are now! as the children got older, they are 16, 14 and 11, they saw the advantages in action.

Parvine: It took a while at the start as well  😉

Parvine: Alex, my favourite food is Middle Eastern.

Sandra Dodd

Okay.
Principles!

Sandra Dodd: Principles instead of rules means not to decide in advance what you're going to do, but to know what you believe and what your priorities are, and then to make decisions based on that.

Sandra Dodd: Not to behave arbitrarily, but thoughtfully.

Sandra Dodd

Sometimes people have wanted me to list all the unschooling principles, but I've always said no.
Pam Sorooshian made a list, for a talk she gave to a local group, I think. And they're about learning—more a deschooling list, maybe.

Sandra Dodd: It says nothing about food or sleep or peaceful families or inviting, interesting spaces, and that's fine.

Sandra Dodd: Knowing it's not an attempt at being THE LIST of principles, I feel better about it.

Sandra Dodd: But I though if I put each one up, people here can tell stories or ask questions.

Sandra Dodd (quoting Pam Sorooshian):

***

Learning happens all the time.

The brain never stops working and it is not possible to divide time up into "learning periods" versus "non-learning periods." Everything that goes on around a person, everything they hear, see, touch, smell, and taste, results in learning of some kind."

***

Sandra Dodd: This might be the one that new unschoolers are most surprised by.

Parvine: if there was such a thing as THE LIST of principles, I think Unschooling would soon turn into a set of rules. I don't see how living and learning can be separated as everyone is constantly learning something new.

Sandra Dodd: When a parent knows that learning happens all the time, she can stop trying to keep children from sitting and thinking, or playing with the same toy for hours, or watching the same book again.

Sandra Dodd: Yes, Parvine. I didn't want it to turn to rules. And some people focus more on one area than another. If an unschooling family cares LOTS about travel and that informs their decisions, that's great.

AlexPolikowsky1

Just the other day Gigi was sick and laying in the couch. The TV was on all day about the building of a ski resort in Dubai ( inisde a mall!). She was just vegging but taking in all that. So parents complain their kids are just watching TV . But you will be amazed about all they are learning!
And it does not have to be a documentary like this one. I know my son learned a lot from Futurama and Family Guy!
Oh and just this last couple days Gigi and I have been watching Rap Battles on Youtube and talking about so many things from Joan of Arc to Edgar Allan Poe!
Epic Rap Batlles
https://www.youtube.com/user/ERB

Sandra Dodd: If another family can't travel at all for financial or legal or medical reasons, I don't want them to feel they're failing at some major principle of unschooling.

Sandra Dodd: In the time it took to wait for one bag and drive Marty and Ashlee home (half an hour altogether), they told me stories about Puerto Rico. Marty said "We were surprised how much we already knew."

AlexPolikowsky1: I had a family tell me they did not think they could unschool well because they could not travel like others did.

Sandra Dodd: They went to the old fort. Their sightseeing day in the old part of town was Sunday and many things were closed, but they said they could see enough even without getting into the shops and museums.

Sandra Dodd: Travel, like other things, is not a necessity. But if a family could easily travel and just refuses to do so, that seems to me that it will be a hindrance.

Sandra Dodd: But it wouldn't be the lack of travel so much as the parental attitude.

Sandra Dodd: When our kids got older, we helped each of them get to out-of-state places on their own—for events, or to visit friends—when we couldn't afford for the whole family of five to get places.

Sandra Dodd: That was a compromise for us.

Sandra Dodd: Sometimes one of them would go with me to a conference, because we couldn't all go, but I already had a room, and so taking one kid was feasible.

Sandra Dodd (quoting Pam Sorooshian):

***

Learning does not require coercion.

In fact, learning cannot really be forced against someone's will. Coercion feels bad and creates resistance.

***

Sandra Dodd: You can't "make" someone learn anything.

Parvine: Which is another reason there cannot be a set of principles that apply to all families. They each have different interests and priorities. I think some families feel overwhelmed by the long lists of what others are doing, especially travellers.

Sandra Dodd: This is a set of principles that apply to all learning, though. I know I brought up what this list is NOT, but for today, let's look at what it IS.

Misa: I think you're more likely to "make" someone not learn something than actually learn something they won't want to. I memorized all sorts of crud for school but it dumped out the brain after the test. But I DID learn to hate specific things, when they were forced on me.

Rippy: Alex, we didn't travel much when the children were little and our unschooling lives were still so rich. In fact, I think our lives were richer because we chose not to travel. The children weren't interested and we did what was interesting for them (even though both Graham and I love traveling). Making that decision felt really good.

AlexPolikowsky1: Rippy we as a family did not travel much but when I started showing dogs at 13 I started travelling a ton! So I travelled a lot because of my interests and support of my parents. That is how I ended up here.

Sandra Dodd (quoting Pam Sorooshian):

***

Learning feels good.

It is satisfying and intrinsically rewarding. Irrelevant rewards can have unintended side effects that do not support learning.

***

Rippy: Parvine, I think families can get overwhelmed easier when they are looking at others outside their families (other unschooling) families. Life feels rich when you are looking at the faces of your happy, smiling children. Doing more of what makes them smile.

AlexPolikowsky1: And yes my children are not that interested. There are some trips I would like to do. Brian and I talk about it. But my kids like being home a lot and when they ere little travelling and being away was very hard for them

Serah: nicely said, Rippy

Rippy: Thanks Serah 🙂


Misa: That "click" when you get something, when you really get it, is so satisfying.

Parvine: Rippy, yes I agree and I was thinking on those parents, new to Unschooling looking at other families.

Serah: My husband and my younger son really like to travel... but my older one prefers to be home
Serah: we still do a manage a couple family trips throughout the year, though

Rippy: Parvine, I think it is a challenging issue for new families. I've seen some moms get into a semi-depressed state because they are in love with the life of their favourite blogger and feel like their life will never measure up. But the measuring stick, in my opinion, should always be one's own family and what makes them smile and shine. Not what makes someone's else's family shine.

Rippy: Serah, do your husband and younger son go on their own trips occasionally? My son wants to go to the mountains with just his dad this spring.

Marta Pires: Parvine, it did happen to me a bit in the beginning. It was only when I started looking at what Conchinha wanted to do and what made her happy that I stopped feeling that I should be doing other things, like travelling.

Marta Pires: Yes, what Rippy said!

Serah: usually just localized fishing trips during the fall salmon run

Serah: I love the mountains and am aching to visit the Rockies

Sandra Dodd: We don't want to dull-down what the happiest unschoolers are doing just because it might be intimidating to new unschoolers.

Rippy: Oh that sounds lovely! A fun father and son trip 🙂

Sandra Dodd: Unschooling is NOT (in any way) a lowest-common-denominato​r activity.

Sandra Dodd: When people do as much as they can do (however much that "much" might be), it works better.

AlexPolikowsky1: Rippy there was a time some unschoolers had blogs about farming and there were many families that dreamed about moving to the country and having a little farm because of the things they read in those blogs. People need to look in to their families not out to others families.

Sandra Dodd: Serah, that was true of us, that Kirby didn't want to go and do things with Keith that Marty DID want to do, and so there were a few things Marty went to and Kirby stayed home (when he had a job, at 14, 15) or with relatives.

Sandra Dodd: -=-People need to look in to their families not out to others families.-=- Yes. And if they're looking at their family with principles in mind, they can see how to apply those ideas at home. 🙂

Sandra Dodd: Back to Pam's list:

Sandra Dodd  (quoting Pam Sorooshian):

***

Learning stops when a person is confused.

All learning must build on what is already known.

***

Serah: Yes, Sandra I can see that happening here too.

Sandra Dodd: That means learning is about connections. And others can't make those connections for you. You bring learning in; it is not inserted.

Sandra Dodd: Some people learn better by seeing, watching, touching, than by being talked to anyway.

Sandra Dodd: Some want to see diagrams in a book, or maps. Some want to hear about it from others who have done it, seen it, know it.

AlexPolikowsky1: Some unschooling families have made big changes like selling everything to go on the road of move out into a farm and it did not work out! Because their priority and focus on not on their families but they were trying to do what worked for other families. That will not work! You priority and focus should be in what your family wants and needs and what makes them thrive. NOT was someother family is doing!

Rippy: I think when people learn how to be inspired from other unschoolers and maybe can adapt some ideas to their own specific family situations (without feeling like failures if it doesn't work out), then it's a good thing and they've grown a step closer to having a happier unschooling home.

Sandra Dodd: When unschoolers provide as much different input as they can, each child can learn in his own way.

Sandra Dodd: Anything to say about confusion and building on what is known?

Rippy: I have a funny story about confusion.

AlexPolikowsky1: And sometimes the person does not have enough to make connections YET. Later in life they will learn because they have enough knowledge to finally make that connection they did not have back then.

Rippy: In one of the only "teaching" moments I had with the kids, I was trying to teach Gianluca the numbers 1-10.

Parvine: My children have each learnt things in very different ways. Reading comes to mind.

Rippy: When we got to 8, I said, it's just two circles on top of each other. He didn't get it. Was pretty confused. Basically couldn't understand that 'eight' fit into the story somehow. He would count, 'one, two, three..., seven, two circles on top of each other, nine, ...)

Rippy: I stopped trying to teach after that 😉

AlexPolikowsky1: Sometimes Gigi asks something and I try to explain and she gets confused and frustrated and she goes: " I don't get it" and she gets mad. When she is confused she closes down. The more you try to explain or show her something the worse it is .

Sandra Dodd (quoting Pam Sorooshian):

***

Learning becomes difficult when a person is convinced that learning is difficult.

Unfortunately, most teaching methods assume learning is difficult and that lesson is the one that is really "taught" to the students.

***

Misa: MATH. This is how most people approach math: "It's super complicated and hard and that's why I'm bad at it."

Sandra Dodd: Once parents start to see that learning is about personal connections, and that kids learn in different ways and at different speeds, it should become easier for them NOT to say "This is hard."

Parvine: Confusion: I used to find maths straightforward up to primary age but got completely confused first year of secondary and did not manage to understand any further. maths became "difficult" from then on.

Sandra Dodd: They say that about grammar and punctuation, too, maybe because they were told repeatedly, in school, in ways they didn't understand.

AlexPolikowsky1: Big time about reading!!!!!! Kids are so convinced reading is hard. I have heard that from many school kids or homeschool kids ( who have lessons about reading). My kids learned . They never said it was difficult.

Sandra Dodd: Lessons are frustrating.

Parvine: Alex, I think the concept of "difficult" is generally picked up at school.

Misa: Also, girls are often told math will be hard for them. Anything technical. Boys get the message that reading and writing is harder for them. And whether that's generally true or not, it is not true 100% of the time.

Sandra Dodd  (quoting Pam Sorooshian):

***

Learning must be meaningful.

When a person doesn't see the point, when they don't know how the information relates or is useful in "the real world," then the learning is superficial and temporary - not "real" learning.

***

AlexPolikowsky1: Maybe. But I have seen my kids say something was hard but they still went for it with a good attitude because they wanted. Or let it go and then came back to it and did great.

Sandra Dodd: When math is about something real, in their own worlds, or about something they're interested in, THEN they can make connections.

Misa: Kai didn't give much of a care about math until he started playing more games and, particularly, when he started getting pocket money each week. THEN he picked up on a lot of it very quickly.

AlexPolikowsky1: ABSOLUTELY!

Sandra Dodd: And if some go further into abstract mathematics, it will be because they're connecting it to what they already know and they WANT to know more! Then it won't be hard. It will be their choice, and not their burden.

AlexPolikowsky1: yes!!^^^^

Sandra Dodd  (quoting Pam Sorooshian):

***

Learning is often incidental.

This means that we learn while engaged in activities that we enjoy for their own sakes and the learning happens as a sort of "side benefit."

***

Sandra Dodd: THIS, unschoolers know VERY well! 🙂

Marta Pires: 🙂

Sandra Dodd: (But Pam was writing for the skeptical, the newbies.)

Parvine: I can see how my kids learnt maths concepts as they went along whether money or Minecraft.

AlexPolikowsky1: I look at myself and I see how much I have learned by just doing something I love. My kids learn some amazing things! Because they are doing what they want and are interested in.

Sandra Dodd: When I was younger, in my 20s and early 30's, I was very involved in the Society for Creative Anachronism, and resources were still paper and rare, with line drawings. It would be another few years before the wonderful photo books came out like Dorling Kindersley, and then a while more before the internet.

Sandra Dodd: I started to notice that some of the best "evidence" and ideas for one thing might come from a book that was "about" something else. A costuming detail in a painting in a book about medieval feasts. Something about how to tuck a tunic up to the inside belt that held the "trews" (pants used to be two separate legs fastened to some cloth wrapped one way or another—like a belt, or like some sort of underwear/wrap)—seen in a book of prayers.

Misa: Sometimes, too, it's hard to figure out just exactly where/when knowledge is gathered from. Kai tells me all sorts of things and, periodically, I've been blown away: "Where did he learn that, anyway?"

Marta Pires: Same here, Misa. ^^^^

AlexPolikowsky1: SO true Misa! That is my son. Some kids do more things in a quiet and more internal way. Some are more out there. I have one of each.

Parvine: Same here  🙂

Sandra Dodd: Respect trivia. 🙂

Sandra Dodd: For school kids, "trivia" means "won't be on the test."

Sandra Dodd: In the absence of tests, where all of life is learning, there IS no "trivia." There is only information. 🙂

Marta Pires: 🙂

Sandra Dodd  (quoting Pam Sorooshian):

***

Learning is often a social activity, not something that happens in isolation from others.

We learn from other people who have the skills and knowledge we're interested in and who let us learn from them in a variety of ways.

***

Sandra Dodd: When our children were young and had a friend over, the same toys were played with in new ways, because the friend had new ideas.

Sandra Dodd: As they got older, they were clearly learning what other kids knew, through conversation and arguments and disagreements and different ideas of how something should be done. It was wonderful.

AlexPolikowsky1: I like that she wrote "often". Because some people do a lot of learning quietly on their own.

Sandra Dodd: But that was the 1990's. 🙂

NOW, as you all know, kids learn together during video game play, and conversations through skype or google hangout.

AlexPolikowsky1: True! and that maybe why I see my son doing more quiet learning. He does multiplayer games and reads a lot in forums.

Sandra Dodd: Yes, Alex. But parents who are school-trained and "homework" trained need to stop thinking that having friends over is "a distraction from learning" and other such phrases and ideas that go with schooling.

AlexPolikowsky1: Good point!

Sandra Dodd: Some people learn from others and then go home and process it.

Sandra Dodd: Sometimes I learn all by myself in private silence, and then (being an extrovert) I need to process it verbally with other people. 🙂

Sandra Dodd: Some and some, altogether. Balance. Neither all one nor all the other. 🙂

AlexPolikowsky1: I remember in Law School we did get together a lot to study for tests. It was the best way and I learned much more that way. We chatted and "wasted" time but I got more in 20 minutes of studiying together than two hours of alone time immersed.

Sandra Dodd: I love this next one. I get giddy with excitement when someone just barely considering unschooling asks in a accusatory, antagonistic way "How will you know whether they're learning?"

Misa: YouTube itself is more social than it seems at first. Since a good chunk of the content is user-created, you're still learning from others.

Sandra Dodd  (quoting Pam Sorooshian):
***
We don't have to be tested to find out what we've learned.
The learning will be demonstrated as we use new skills and talk knowledgeably about a topic.
***

AlexPolikowsky1: Right Misa! Even Gigi likes to read the comments!

Sandra Dodd: And there are comments, Misa! (Sometimes stupid ones, but sometimes good ones.)

AlexPolikowsky1: My son used to get into discussions on Youtube when he was younger.

Sandra Dodd: Testing is about teachers proving that the learning was enough to earn them a paycheck, or to keep them employed.

Sandra Dodd: And it's about competition.
Sandra Dodd: So if we remove teaching, paychecks and competition, nothing is left but learning! 🙂

Sandra Dodd: This one comes up sometimes about how people discuss unschooling. Sometimes people come to the discussions who want only logic, so we send in Joyce. If they only want scientific studies, Pam Sorooshian and Schuyler Waynforth are great.

AlexPolikowsky1: It is so disheartening when I read about local unschoolers talking about how they like this test over another so they can see what their kids are learning ( we have mandatory annual testing in Minnesota- the test is for the parents eyes only so it does not matter what the child scores)

Sandra Dodd: I'm more emotional in my arguments. Logic, but speed-logic and simple proofs on the spot. "How did you know when your child could walk? How did you know when he could speak? Ride a bike?"

Sandra Dodd: Pam wrote:

***
Feelings and intellect are not in opposition and not even separate things.
All learning involves the emotions, as well as the intellect.
***

Sandra Dodd: If a child is emotional it doesn't mean he's not learning. If another child is methodically robotic in his behaviors and responses, it doesn't mean he's bright or thoughtful. 🙂

AlexPolikowsky1: Gigi's horseback riding instructor is a school teacher. She is awesome. She never tested Gigi. She can see what Gigi can or cannot do and she is pretty awesome. They have fun! She says she learns with Gigi a lot. I could not imagine her testing Gigi.

Sandra Dodd: Traditionally, "feelings" have ""QUOTATION MARKS"" and are treated as suspicious, inferior, and girly.

Sandra Dodd: But as more is known about cognition in a more physical way, how the brain works, how thoughts work, it turns out that biochemistry and "feelings" are one and the same.

Sandra Dodd: So brain chemistry and the way ideas are retrieved and connected can't be separated from emotion.

The kinds of emotions referred to in items up above—stress, confusion—will keep connections from being made, and will keep prior knowledge from being accessible!

Sandra Dodd  (quoting Pam Sorooshian):

***

Learning requires a sense of safety.

Fear blocks learning. Shame and embarrassment, stress and anxiety—these block learning.

***

Sandra Dodd: And that concludes Pam's list. I might rename it "Principles of Learning."

Sandra Dodd: I don't think she named it in the first place. 🙂

Parvine: Alex, Atai used to go for horse riding lessons with a lovely teacher who also didn't test anything. She knew her horses well and just spent time making sure kids are having fun.

AlexPolikowsky1: Yep Parvine. I told her I had no expectations of Gigi becoming a great horse rider. As long as she wanted and was having fun!  She is. She loves her instructor and loves going. Now that we do not have the pony it makes her happy to get some horse time.

Parvine: Alex, Leili chose to take guitar lessons and it took the teacher several weeks to understand that she is attending his lessons simply because she enjoys it. He finds it difficult to comprehend the concept of no grading  😉

Sandra Dodd: So don't pressure, coerce or confuse your children.

Sandra Dodd: Smile and laugh and provide.

Sandra Dodd: Keep them safe and fed and warm and they will grow all sorts of ways.

AlexPolikowsky1: Learning can come from anything and playing and being with friends is NOT frivolous!

Sandra Dodd: Being alone because they want to be is better than being alone because they have no options.

Sandra Dodd: Being with friends because they want to be is better than being with kids because the parents think it's necessary.

AlexPolikowsky1: Playing with make-up is just as good as reading a book.

Sandra Dodd: We have some time. I'm sorry for the late start. That photo was making me crazy. But I'm glad she took it, and I'll figure out how to put it where I want it. It might need a re-name.

Jaclyn Koehl: It's a beautiful photo, I'm glad she was okay sharing it!

AlexPolikowsky1: That picture of the lotus flower is beautiful!!!!

Sandra Dodd: All in one day, all within one hour, I retrieved Marty and his new wife from their honeymoon return, and got the first direct communication from Holly in India, where she had been for 34 hours (not that I'm counting....)

AlexPolikowsky1: sure you are not! 😉

Sandra Dodd: So I was a bit zingy-brained. Sorry.

Sandra Dodd: I'm grateful to have (from a series of connections, all from unschooling) been able to know a family that wanted Holly to visit.

Marta Pires: 😘

AlexPolikowsky1: When my time comes Sandra Zingy-brained will be minor. Knowing me I would be freaking out. You guys will need to hold my hand.

Sandra Dodd: I'm glad we could afford airfare, and that Keith was willing to trust that I wasn't just launching Holly blindly toward India, but that she would be met in Mumbai by a nice man I had met in person more than once, and trusted.

Sandra Dodd: I'm a mother-in-law.

Marta Pires: 🙂

Sandra Dodd: I will admit a very happy attitude about having the house more to myself for a while!

Sandra Dodd: I would say two months, because that's how long Holly will be in India, but another thing that's happened in the past week is that Keith decided to retire early.

[and then some details about that...]

Sandra Dodd: Anyway...

Marta Pires: Is Kirby really moving back to Albuquerque?

Sandra Dodd: Keith will be home after the first week in January, likely stressed about "what now?"

Sandra Dodd: AND Kirby is moving back to Albuquerque, probably in April.

Sandra Dodd: With his girlfriend and her daughter who is five.

Sandra Dodd: So. Stress?

Parvine: Sound like its the start of a new phase and stage for all  🙂

Marta Pires: Wow, lots of things happening!

Sandra Dodd: Happy stories individually, but all at once is a lot.

Sandra Dodd: I had envisioned a placid sea of days of nothing particular, so that I could finish projects, organize my thoughts, do another book, read, sew, sit by the fire.

Sandra Dodd: The circus landed on me.

Rippy: Ha!

Marta Pires: Hehehe
Rippy: I love that image 🙂

Rippy: You do get the month of December - but that might be one of the busiest months of the year.

Misa: Life cares not for our plans. Quite often.

Rippy: How was the wedding?

Sandra Dodd: Sweet! I liked the script [ceremony]. The guy said that they would need to decide over and over to be married.

Sandra Dodd: I loved that! 🙂

Sandra Dodd: It was about support and choices.

Sandra Dodd: Being all state-of-Nevada and non-religious.

AlexPolikowsky1: nice~!

Rippy: I love that too!

Sandra Dodd: She walked in to "Here comes the Sun"

Sandra Dodd: and they walked out to "Viva Las Vegas"

AlexPolikowsky1: They looked beautiful!

Rippy: Ha! Sounds like fun 🙂

Misa: People don't think about it that way, but we make the decision to be in a relationship with people every single day.

Sandra Dodd: yes, Misa.

Sandra Dodd: And to decide several times a day to be good moms. 🙂

Marta Pires: Yes!

AlexPolikowsky1: It is a choice everyday . I agree Misa!

Edited by Sandra Dodd, November 26,2014

Temporary location for Holly's first photo from India

Food

Alex Polikowsky moderated this discussion. Sandra Dodd edited the transcript. One participant's name was changed to a made-up name, during the edit.

November 19 2014
Topic: "Food"

From Sandra's notes for this chat:

"This Wednesday's chat will be on food! So maybe eat before you come, or have a snack at hand. "

__________________________

AlexPolikowsky4: We will be talking about food today. I just had breakfast. My hubby went grocery shopping and bought me some blueberry bagels and cream cheese. He is a sweetie!

Marta Pires: Everybody's got a snack?

Marta Pires: Yummy! Sweet Brian

AlexPolikowsky4: Before I have breakfast everyday i feed kittens and baby calves. After I do my chores taking care of the animals then I sit to have breakfast and check my messages and such!

Parvine: yes, my snack is left over of my daughters sale. She is sitting right next to me 

Marta Pires: Which daughter? So I can say hi 

Parvine: Its the one you didn't meet at the beach 

AlexPolikowsky4: I am done with my snack. Now I have a cat warming my lap!

Parvine: the dog is on my other side!

Serah: food! Yum

AlexPolikowsky4: We got Portugal, Minnesota, Canada, Alabama

AlexPolikowsky4

So food.  Yummy! We need food to live so it is something we need to have daily but we can also get a lot of joy from eating or sharing it with loved ones.
I do not know how other cultures are dealing with food and children but it seems to be a HUGE issue here in the US with parents sometimes being extremely controlling of what, when and how much their children eat.

AlexPolikowsky4: Controlling and limiting food, or making children feel guilty for eating creates lots of baggage that people carry all their lives.

Marta Pires: Alex, I believe it's the same here in Portugal.

Parvine: I think its the same here with attitude towards food. Soup as starter is a big thing!

Patrice Moors: Food was a major stumbling block for me.

Serah: me too

AlexPolikowsky4: It has also become a point where parents that do not feed their children the "right" kind of food are not as good parents.

Marta Pires: Such a big thing, Parvine! I was just telling Sandra that the other day.

Marta Pires: It took me a while to not feel guilty and anxious for not having soup ready at every meal for Conchinha and Bruno.

AlexPolikowsky4: Why Patrice? You wanted to talk about food. How is YOUR relationship with food and growing up?

Marta Pires: We always had soup at my mom's, at every meal.

Patrice Moors: Terrible, but I didn't fully realize it.

Patrice Moors: Until recently. Unless I find more.

Serah: I used to try to control certain types of food... Letting go of those controls has helped create a peaceful environment here at home

Parvine: They are great on outings though, I often see parents in the malls spoon-feeding a bowl of soup and then the child eats the burger independently !

Patrice Moors: 

AlexPolikowsky4: So Parvine having soup at every meal is a cultural expectation and it is totally Ok to have soup! Unless it is obligatory and the child is made to eat it, or you feel like you have to even if you do not feel like it 

Patrice Moors: I was this mom: we enjoy a treat when we go out or at a party but I just don't bring those things home.

Marta Pires: And like Sandra said, it really is a privilege now to have fresh vegetables and fruit available all the time. It wasn't that way not that long ago.


AlexPolikowsky4: I agree Marta. That is the thing. It is a privilege here in the US where fruits and veggies are very expensive. I remember they being very cheap in Brazil.

Patrice Moors: I thought I wasn't controlling food because I didn't make people eat at certain times or certain places

AlexPolikowsky4: How long have you been unschooling Patrice? I know your daughters are early teens right?

Patrice Moors: 7 and 9

AlexPolikowsky4: Oh they are younger than I thought. I thought they were like 11 and 13 for some reason!

AlexPolikowsky4:  Did you daughters ask to have certain foods and you said no?

Parvine: Eyo who has basically grown up here loves Portuguese soups but was just part of food offered. No pressure unlike with my oldest whom I was advised to make sure she has her soups.

Parvine: She doesn't like the texture nor taste!

Marta Pires: And I think Conchinha loves soup because she doesn't *have to* eat it all the time!

Patrice Moors: I've been reading about unschooling since I was pregnant with Lydia (9). They've never been to school or daycare.

AlexPolikowsky4: It is interesting how we do not make an adult eat something but then turn around and want to make kids eat what we think they should. No adult would be happy with that.

AlexPolikowsky4: I love soup!

Marta Pires: So do I!

Patrice Moors: Yes, I was prejudiced against "junk food"

AlexPolikowsky4: So what kept you from relaxing about food and what made you start changing you thinking about it Patrice?

Parvine: I love soup too, but as adults we get to choose. Letting kids choose is just not the norm!

Patrice Moors: I just never bothered to examine the idea that an adult should police what kid should eat

Parvine: Patrice, it took me a while to remove "healthy" and " not healthy" label.

Patrice Moors: I also had unexamined prejudice about fatness

AlexPolikowsky4

I love what Schuyler wrote:
"Candy fed with love beats the heck out of broccoli eaten out of fear."

Patrice Moors: I had a lot of out-of-date food lore from parents and school

Marta Pires: Schuyler rocks!

Patrice Moors: Yeah, I found ways to avoid reading Sandra's food pages for a long time

AlexPolikowsky4

Some bigger size parents are very afraid their kids will turn out to be big like themselves so they do the same damage it was done to them as a child.
It does not work.
There is also genes. Some people will be bigger no matter what.
There are skinny unhealthy people and bigger healthy people

Parvine: nothing quite like enjoying what you eat and watching the kids do the same.

Marta Pires: Indeed, Parvine.

Patrice Moors: I did a lot of research on these issues

AlexPolikowsky4: what I have noticed is that my kids can really take it or leave any kind of food that are considered "junk" and not healthy. They can leave chocolate, candy, sweets.

Marta Pires: I was lucky to have had a very short "healthy food" phase.

Marta Pires: I found radical unschooling in the meantime. 

AlexPolikowsky4: I have had enough kids that are controlled , even if gently, come to my home and gorge and binge on all the candy we have in our home. It is really interesting.

AlexPolikowsky4: Yes Parvine. Enjoying what you eat is great! Sometimes people will eat just for the joy of eating something. Lots of times they are hungry.

Patrice Moors: I had to figure out what was going on when what I was seeing with my two kids contradicted everything I thought I knew about food and health

Parvine: I have found this too, the kids now pick and choose freely while their friends who visit ask for a range of whatever they are not allowed or restricted in their own homes.

AlexPolikowsky4

I do think that unschooling parents have to be very proactive provinding lots of options for their kids. When we are hungry we will go for whatever is easier and that is usually a candy bar or some chips and such. I would love to have someone offer me a plate of fruits and veggies before I am too hungry.
I think unschooling parents should be doing that.

AlexPolikowsky4: What was going on with them Patrice?

Patrice Moors: What I saw, and had to explain to myself, was that I had two kids with very similar activity levels, and who ate almost identical diets, but one kid was lean, and one kid was fat

AlexPolikowsky4

Sandra's food page:
http://sandradodd.com/food

Patrice Moors: Read it all, read it twice

Marta Pires: I must confess that sometimes I feel that I'm not as proactive as I should be...
Marta Pires: Now that I think of it, it might have to do with some issues that I need to sort out quickly, related to wasting food.

AlexPolikowsky4: So who is the heavier child the older one?

Patrice Moors: Yes

AlexPolikowsky4: It is also very normal for children to put on some pounds when they are getting close to puberty. I have seen that in many many kids. They will pack pounds at around 9 (sometimes a bit earlier) and will only lose them much later on.

Patrice Moors: It is taking longer for her to recover from the control, because she was scrutinized more, I think.

AlexPolikowsky4: Absolutely Patrice

AlexPolikowsky4: What I think is damaging is for parents to start pointing out to the child that they are getting heavy and that they should eat this or do that. It is very very damaging!

Patrice Moors: I appreciate what you're saying there Alex, about kids putting on weight to grow, and looking slimmer later because they grew into the weight (they don't literally "lose weight", but become leaner, and just look different)

Patrice Moors: But it doesn't seem quite right to be thinking "it's okay that you're fat now, because you'll look slimmer later"

Marta Pires: My mom still does that now, Alex, pointing out to me that I'm getting heavy. Funny that her mother, my grandmother, always wanted me to get heavy. That way, I looked healthy to her. Funny how things change.

AlexPolikowsky4

I can say that as a child that had gone through that . I was very lucky that my parents were not controlling about food at all! Very unschooly until I hit about 9 or 10 and packed a few pounds. Keep in mind I was still very very lean for american standards! But Brazilians, especially from Rio , are very much into the perfect body and my younger sister by two and a half years had a perfect little body. So I started hearing I should not eat the second slice of cake or I was going to get fat. That did a lot of damage for me. That went on throughout all my teen years.
Terrible damage

Patrice Moors: The current craze for thinness is fashion.

AlexPolikowsky4: Yes Patrice you are right! They do not loose weight because they are growing. They grow into it! Thanks for clarifying!

JanelE:

My 8 year old does this. She gets bigger around the middle for a bit and then shoots up and thins out again.

Parvine: Alex, I agree there needs to be a wide choice of foods and various snacks available. I find now when they are hungry they will ask whats to eat and prefer cooked snacks and fruits to sweets or cookies.

Patrice Moors: In other times and places, my lean daughter would be considered "scrawny" and my fat daughter would be considered adorable.

AlexPolikowsky4: Sometimes Parvine we are not in tune with our kids and we forget to offer some snacks and I see them get up and go eat candy. I do not say anything. I get up and make them a little plate with some fruits. cheese and such or make them a meal they love and just bring them over. 9 out of 10 times they quit eating the candy and eat the food or snacks I brought them!

Marta Pires: I think my body image has been damaged for long because my other grandmother always told me I was fat. And mind you, I have always been on the petite side. Not skinny, but definitely not fat.

AlexPolikowsky4: Yes Patrice. Cultural expectations come to play! In some parts of the middle east being heavier is more attractive.

Patrice Moors: If she were a boy, people would be asking her if she liked football.

Parvine: My mother controlled and tried to force feed me for almost 4 years, following doctor's orders as he thought I was a thin child. I don't have any specific memories of that but still dislike it when she offers me food. Kids were expected to be chubby as that meant healthy!

AlexPolikowsky4: Marta I look back at my pictures when my parents used to tell me I was getting fat and I was actually pretty skinny!! Amazing! So much damage for nothing!

Marta Pires: Exactly, Alex.

Patrice Moors: Looking back at pictures and videos when she was a baby, she was extremely fat when she was a baby, and all she had was breast milk.

Robin B.: Some kids (and people) though have a very narrow range of what they eat (what they can eat and feel good when they do). My daughter has always been slim, but barely a vegetable has passed her lips in 19 years. I remember when she was about 5, when asked what her favorite food was, she said "meat." The doc had never heard a kid say that - it was chocolate or candy or well, anything but meat!

Patrice Moors: Her younger sister was lean, even as a baby, even though she weighed more at birth.

Marta Pires: What I have found is that my relationship with food and even with ny body have been slowly changing, as I have been learning more and more about unschooling and healthy relationships. 

AlexPolikowsky4: Gigi was a chubby baby! She is an athletic girl now. Pretty tall but not as skinny as she was but not chubby or heavy. I do not want to damage her image of herself or her relationship with food. I see my brothers were NEVER bothered about what they ate. They grew up with no issues about food. That is much better than us the girls because of expectations to have a perfect body. Being perfect in Rio is a pretty big thing!

Robin B.: I'm always open to her changing her mind and have many foods to offer, but I have her favorites on hand all the time. Right now, her very favorite thing to eat is frozen apple bananas.  And seared ahi. With some mac and cheese thrown in.

Parvine: That's great to hear Robin as my 14 year old daughter has "meat" as her favourite food and been like that ever since she tasted it at a very young age. She eats other foods but she says could just eat meat and chicken.

Marta Pires: I think it really has to do with each body and its specific needs.

AlexPolikowsky4: And Patrice it maybe that she will always be heavier and bigger. But there is a difference to growing up thinking you are not good enough because you are heavy or growing up feeling that you are who you are and beautiful the way you are. That no one is trying to fix you! That you are are beautiful and perfect as your smaller sister.

Robin B.: Ha! That's funny, Parvine. Senna would probably have a very nice meal with your daughter!

Patrice Moors: Lydia got more pressure about what she choose to eat. More "eat this before you eat that". Under that pressure, I saw the list of things she would eat shrink and shrink.

AlexPolikowsky4: Robin that sounds like good food to have!

Robin B.: I know, right? The apple bananas were a surprise, as the only way she's eaten bananas otherwise was as baby food (bits of banana) and in banana bread.

AlexPolikowsky4: She probably felt guilty for eating one more thing or wanting a cake instead of an apple

AlexPolikowsky4: There was a moment for me that changed everything!

Patrice Moors: Alex, that's my goal with Lydia. I don't actually think they are going to look all that different when they're done growing.

Robin B.: Allowing kids to figure out what food makes them feel good and right turns many of our own childhoods on their head.

Marta Pires: Indeed, Robin.

Patrice Moors: However... most people don't currently feel that way. Most people laugh at fat jokes. Most people make comments about weight and body shape.

Parvine: Yes Marta I agree each body has own specific needs but it sure has but took me a while to fully understand that. Others were greatly concerned for my son who chose almost only fruits for over a year. He didn't want any cooked foods or vegetables except for pasta.

Marta Pires: Parvine, Meredith Novak has written many times that Mo lived on milk and cookies (was it?) for a year, I believe. Or was it only milk?

AlexPolikowsky4: Parvine Pasta and fruits sound great!

Patrice Moors: Lydia drank a lot of milk, for years, then she just stopped. I was glad I gave her all she wanted while she still wanted it.

AlexPolikowsky4

When my son was 3 or 4 I never limited food but I asked my husband to keep his huge stashes of cookies in the barn so our son would not eat them. So I would give him cookies but they were not available at any time. I also used to explain that they were not healthy and I used to make some healthier versions for him.
One day my son asked for his dad's cookies because he became aware dad always had them, and he said something like:
"I am OK if they are not so good for me"
That is when I saw that he was feeling guilty for eating and wanting those cookies because I had made them into a "not good for him" thing.
I stopped telling him that and started having cookies available. I saw the damage I was doing.

Robin B.: Patrice, you can defend your kids against "most people." There are really good blogs and sites (usually written by women) to empower people who aren't skinny. It's one of the last prejudices to fall. (Damn Wallis Warfield Simpson!)

Patrice Moors: Ah, let me get to the heart.
Patrice Moors: We're going to my husband's parents' for Thanksgiving.

Robin B.: Uh-oh.

Patrice Moors: Last time we visited them, FiL made comments about Lydia's body.

AlexPolikowsky4: Did she make it to you? or to Lydia? And are they heavy?

Patrice Moors: I was not present. I don't think that is a coincidence.

Patrice Moors: They're average.
Patrice Moors: By today's insane standards, his mom might be called fat

Robin B.: What did you do?

Patrice Moors: I heard about it after the fact from my husband.

Parvine: Thats what I thought at the time Alex!

Patrice Moors: He said his dad commented on how much she was eating and made fun of her body.

Robin B.: Did your husband say anything?

Robin B.: That's not okay.

Patrice Moors: He said he shut him down.

AlexPolikowsky4: Good for your husband!

Parvine: I was told he is going to get ill from too many fruits. That was five years ago.

AlexPolikowsky4: I would tell them in private that it is absolutely NOT OK to make comments about your kids size one way or another.

Patrice Moors: His mom always comments on my weight, in that way some women always do. It's meant to be a compliment.

Robin B.: Are you worried it's going to happen again, Patrice?

Patrice Moors: I think it might. I'm only worried that his parents are hurting their relationship with the girls.

AlexPolikowsky4: Parvine I learned long ago to sometimes change subject or sometimes just ask "WHY?" some people cannot even answer why they said something. They are just repeating what they heard.

Patrice Moors: They don't really play or talk or do anything with them.

AlexPolikowsky4: Can you sent them an email telling then that comments and jokes about size and weight of ANYONE in the family are not OK and not welcome?

AlexPolikowsky4: Or ask you husband to talk to them!

Patrice Moors: Lydia is big, and tall. She looks about 12, but she's 9. People forget she's a little kid.

Patrice Moors: She's also enthusiastic about food. Loudly, sometimes. Nobody would care if she were lean.

AlexPolikowsky4: Virgina I know exactly how that is. My 12 year old is very tall . He is very lean but he does not look his age and he never did look his age. People expected him to act much older than he is. Even I can sometimes forget his age because he is so much taller and looks older.

Robin B.: Patrice, have you talked with Lydia about what people (her grandparents!) might say to her?

Robin B.: Hey, maybe she'll be the next Julia Child (a big woman who was enthusiastic about food)!

Patrice Moors: We've talked a little, but she doesn't like to.

Robin B.: Yeah, my daughter doesn't like to talk much either. I would write her or send her links to read when she was ready.

Patrice Moors: I'm happy she still goes nude in the house (not hiding her body)

Robin B.: But not at 9. She wasn't reading then. I guess I would make casual remarks in her vicinity, because she was always listening!

Patrice Moors: When she watches videos and people make comments about others' bodies, I comment on their comments

AlexPolikowsky4

There is a Korean Drama about a heavy girl that is a pastry chef that is awesome
It is called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lovely_Sam_Soon Lovely Sam Soon

Patrice Moors: We're two years out from when I stopped controlling food, but I think Lydia still doesn't trust it fully

AlexPolikowsky4

That maybe for later.
Oh and for later there was this great book I read Circle of Friends by Maeve Binchy ( there is also a movie) But when she is a teen!

Patrice Moors: Lately, Lydia had been saying things like she wishes she could be more like her sister.

AlexPolikowsky4: Have you stopped controlling but also relaxed? Kids can feel when we are still not relaxed about it when they make a choice that we think is not the best. They can sense that we are umcomfortable

Patrice Moors: I'm not all the way there. When Lydia asks for ice cream multiple times in a day, I do tense up

Patrice Moors: I'm sorry to monopolize the conversation, I've been thinking about this so much

AlexPolikowsky4

This is really cool;
http://www.boredpanda.com/athlete-body-t...

Robin B.: No, it's fine, Patrice!

Patrice Moors: I came home last night and the big bowl of laffy taffy in the kitchen was missing

Patrice Moors: I'm not proud of this, I thought my husband might have hidden it while I was out with our younger daughter

Patrice Moors: It wasn't, my younger had it in bed with her 

Patrice Moors: I've been tense also because Lydia's activity level has gotten lower.

Patrice Moors: But I really think she is less active because she's big, not big because she's less active.

AlexPolikowsky4: So you really need to embrace and relax. Gigi wanted lots of Ice cream cones from Schwanz. We got her 5 boxes . That was around 60 of them. Then we got it again next time they Schwanz man came. There was a lot left and now she does not want them anymore. She did not eat them all but she sure ate a lot of them!

Robin B.: When you, yourself, get over the idea that one weight is good and another is bad, things will be better. Look at your daughter. Is she happy? Is she enjoying her life?

Robin B.: Age 9 is a pack-on-the-pounds age. It's the beginning of hormonal changes.

Patrice Moors: She's sprouting early for sure.

AlexPolikowsky4: I really make a point NOT to count how many my kids had. They want. They can have it. They want more I get them more. While I do that I keep offering lots of other options! Tons of fruit and other things to eat 

AlexPolikowsky4

Repeating here what Robin said:
"When you, yourself, get over the idea that one weight is good and another is bad, things will be better. Look at your daughter. Is she happy? Is she enjoying her life?"

Patrice Moors: I think I feel like my husband is still struggling with it. He's not a big talker

AlexPolikowsky4: He may be. But does he say anything to you or her?

Patrice Moors: I know he did in the past, but he mostly doesn't any more. But he still make things "junk food" in his mind.

AlexPolikowsky4: If you guys can talk you can ask him if he thinks that controlling her food would really work in the long run and not damage not only your relationship but her self-esteem and relatioship with food

Robin B.: I come back to Schuyler's quote (up above): "Candy fed with love beats the heck out of broccoli eaten out of fear."   [Editor's note: SandraDodd.com/eating/peace has that quote, and so does SandraDodd.com/nest]

Patrice Moors: She's 9, but she weighs as much as some adults, so she needs to eat as much as an adult plus extra to grow.

Patrice Moors: I think he still believes, maybe unexamined in his mind, that Lydia could be thinner if she chose to, and thinner would be better.

AlexPolikowsky4

I have a friend who is pretty big. She even had a gastro band done and lost 100 pounds. But she is still big. Growing up her mom was always on her case. She tried to commit suicide a few times. She has two daughters from different man and did not marry either and she had many issues. She did turn herself around. She is now married to a nice man who treats her well and loves her the way she is.
Controlling her food did not keep her from being very very heavy as an adult. I think it made it worse because she ate more due to guilt and low self esteem

Patrice Moors: The truth is, her body doesn't look much different from mine

AlexPolikowsky4: My son weights more than 130 pounds so as much as many adults. He is over 5'8" so he is lean. Do not look at numbers , Look at her

AlexPolikowsky4: Are you heavier or thinner?

Patrice Moors: I'm medium.

Patrice Moors: Tallish.

Patrice Moors: I think I'd be taller if I had not put myself on calorie restricted diets when I was a teen

Patrice Moors: I recently found out that my father was fat when he was a child. He's been thin my whole life. He's dangerously thin now that he old and ill.

AlexPolikowsky4

You just do not know what the future will be. She may fall in love with running and slim down, she may stay the same, she may get heavier. The thing is that NO one can control that. She can, in the future, chose to do things about it. But as a 9 year old or even a 15 year old I think that controlling or frowning on her food choices will definitely damage her in many ways. You are already seeing it.

No amount of controlling, even if done subtly ( kids are very aware !) will guarantee she will be lean or medium or whatever. I rather my child grows heavy and happy and feeling loved and beautiful than feeling like she is not right and should change.

AlexPolikowsky4: Second being lean is NOT more attractive than being heavier. There are many gorgeous big girls!

Robin B.: What Alex said.

Patrice Moors: I can see my husband get uncomfortable when Lydia asks for a lot of food. I'm trying to figure it how to support them both.

AlexPolikowsky4: Just google beautiful or gorgeous big girls and look at the images. Some pretty stunning women!

AlexPolikowsky4: The link about he athletes will also show you some big people that are very very healthy!

Patrice Moors: Yes, Alex, there are attractive people of all sizes, and people of all sizes who are attracted to them. I also think it's okay to not be into beauty. I'm getting sick of it, personally.

Robin B.: Maybe ask him to think about when he held her as a newborn. Maybe if he can feel that love that he had for her as a baby when he looks at her now, he can see her for the person she is. Instead of the food she eats.

Patrice Moors: And Alex, I do not agree that "in the future she could choose to do something about" her body shape.

Patrice Moors: The science continues to come in: dieting doesn't work.

AlexPolikowsky4: Don't support your husband in that. You can talk to him about it . Have a good conversation like the one here or you can just accept he is uncomfortable and let him be umcomfortable. But Support him in this case is not the way I think . I would not support my husband in it. I would either accept or talk to him and listen and ponder together.

Robin B.: You can still love your husband and be his partner by understanding where he might be coming from. Was he shamed about his food choices as a child? Maybe he can heal from that through this.

Robin B.: Virigina, I'm not sure Alex was suggesting diet.

AlexPolikowsky4: NOT her body shape but her weight yes. You cannot change your shape but you can certainly be more active, drop a few pounds or bet more shapely. OR not!. I do not think tall and thin is better than short and muscular or medium and curvy. It is all beautiful But I know people that were pretty big all their lives and decided to change or fell in love with snowshoeing or running and changed or lost weight as a result.

Patrice Moors: I'm not sure. I know his mom was a lousy cook.

AlexPolikowsky4: and I did not say diet either!

Robin B.: Somehow, he's absorbed those ideas about weight and eating. Maybe not from his family. But you did, too! Maybe we all have. It's awareness of what that does to relationships that you know, now, that is changing your thinking.

Patrice Moors: Yes, these ideas are pretty widespread in the culture.

Robin B.: Once upon a time, it was good to be fat because you had enough to eat.

AlexPolikowsky4

Some people do not even get damaged by the parents controlling them but for the parents themselves always talking down on their bodies.
A mother that is always complaining about her body, her shape, her weight, her looks will certainly pass that on to her daughter. It is not a good thing.
My mom was always complaining that she wished her nose was this or that her cheeks were smaller or her belly was flatter. She was beautiful. It did pass on to me and my sister!

Robin B.: People died young or succumbed more easily to disease because they *didn't* have enough to eat. This culture is a blip on the evolutionary scale. 

Patrice Moors: But most people believe in the "obesity epidemic" and that being fat is automatically unhealthy, including doctors.

Robin B.: Are you most people?

AlexPolikowsky4: Yes you are right but you do not have to do the same 

Patrice Moors: No, but about 5 years ago, I was.

Robin B.: And why do "most people" make any difference? Most people send their kids to school. 

Patrice Moors: I know guys, I did the research, but I can't make my husband or his parents do it.

JanelE :

Can anyone recommend reading that debunks theories about health problems being related to obesity?

Patrice Moors: Haes.org [editor's note: that url brought up this: http://www.bodypositive.com]

Parvine: In many countries it would be considered desirable to be "round" and those people would be considered "overweight" by outsiders. They are healthy, active and I think most importantly happy.

JanelE :

Thank you.

AlexPolikowsky4: Patrice I would love to continue chatting. I can totally related to what you feel growing up in Rio de Janeiro and being an exercise fanatic with a nice body as a young adult. But I have to go. My son has an appointment to check as he may have a perforated eardrum!

Patrice Moors: Okay guys, thanks for listening

AlexPolikowsky4: Good bye!

JanelE :

Thank you, Patrice, and everyone. I struggle with food issues too, and this chat was helpful.

Marta Pires: I need to go too, ladies. Thanks Alex for hosting this chat!

Edited by Sandra Dodd, who missed that day

because of driving to Las Vegas for Marty's wedding.