Also at http://sandradodd.com/chats/bigbook/pages242-244_truth.html but the format is better here. (Sandra, October 2018)
Sandra Dodd left this message:
October 2 Chat:Two topics in the book will be covered, one in the first half, and the other in the second half. The first is about individuals and their choices. The second is about interpretation of information of all sorts.
Truth/Honesty/Lies, page 242 of The Big Book of Unschooling, corresponds to http://sandradodd.com/integrity
Fact/Fallacy/Opinion, pages 243-244 of The Big Book of Unschooling, or if you don't have the book, this might help: http://sandradodd.com/logic
Both topics contain ideas that can help an unschooling parent be more trustworthy, improving relationships and learning at home!
SUBSCRIBE TO CHAT NOTICES HERE: http://chatnotes-unschooling.blogspot.com
Marta Pires joined the chat
Sandra Dodd joined the chat
Sandra Dodd: One big failed plan. I lost most of last week's chat.
Sandra Dodd: So I kind of hope you saved it. But if not, I'm just never ever going to save it straight to the blog again. ALWAYS a word file first.
Sandra Dodd: What was I THINKING!?
Marta Pires: Don't worry, I think I've got it!
Marta Pires: I save it to Evernote first too.
Marta Pires: Was last week's topic "If I let him"?
Sandra Dodd: I've come across a couple of the chats I really like and they have attachments and videos and I like that better than colors on names.
Marta Pires: Yes. I've got it.
Sandra Dodd: I really thought editing them in a blog would be easier. But turns out it's not very easy and they're fragile and we can't control the font size.
Sandra Dodd: I'm very glad you have it.
Sandra Dodd: Thanks.
Sandra Dodd: Heya, Heather!
Sandra Dodd: I do enjoy your blog.
Marta Pires: Me too!
Sandra Dodd: When there are usually people somewhere and then there aren't, I think there might have been an earthquake or a war or something.
Sandra Dodd: I wouldn't have thought any such thing if I weren't able to tell you where I was when.... (Kennedy, 9/11, John Lennon, Michael Jackson...)
Marta Pires: Yeah, it's strange that we're only 3 here today.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe people are tired of my opinion on truth and honesty.
Marta Pires: No, I'm quite sure that's not it.
Sandra Dodd: The notice went out, though, I think, it seemed.
Marta Pires: I got it.
Marta Pires: On Saturday, I think.
Heather Booth joined the chat
Heather Booth: Hiya!
Heather Booth: I'm glad to hear it! I really enjoy having it.
Sandra Dodd: Holly had a skateboard accident and though she wasn't visibly wrecked up, she damaged four teeth on top and so she's having root canal and temporary caps tomorrow, and permanent on the 17th. Poor thing. She's kind of flipped out. And chipped the two next to those, but she wants to just get those smoothed off and keep them as is with slight chips at least for a while.
Marta Pires: Poor Holly!
Virginia Warren joined the chat
Sandra Dodd: And she's going to a chiropractor. Because before the skateboard fall this weekend (which was just on a flat sidewalk, and she didn't even get scrapes, just a few bruises and slightly fat lip)... she had dropped a big piano on her—not all the way, but it tipped and torqued her and she pushed it back up.
Heather Booth: My brother had a skateboard accident where he knocked out half of both of his two front teeth.
Sandra Dodd: So every day either I take her to a medical office or she takes herself, and tomorrow, both chiropractor and dentist and then recovery from twilight sedation.
Heather Booth: He was really freaked out too when it happened.
Sandra Dodd: So scary.
Sandra Dodd: Did he get them capped? How old was he?
Jill Parmer joined the chat
Heather Booth: He was about 14. He had them capped. He ended up getting braces when he was 30 and we all wondered if they would come off when the braces did. They didn't.
Sandra Dodd: It can happen without skateboards. Carol Narigon tripped in her living room and hit the edge of the hearth and broke teeth. Yikes.
Sandra Dodd: Hi, Jill.
Heather Booth: Heya Jill!
Marta Pires: I am so afraid to go to the dentist...
Laura Z joined the chat
Sandra Dodd: I get nitrous oxide when I can.
Sandra Dodd: Laura, how near to I-40 do you live?
Heather Booth: I do the same thing Sandra. It just makes the whole thing more comfortable.
Jill Parmer: Hi.
Marta Pires: What's nitrous oxide?
Sandra Dodd: "Laughing gas," they used to call it.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe you can find a dentist who uses it.
Sandra Dodd: You breathe it and it keeps you from being as aware.
Marta Pires: Now I'm going to look for one!
Laura Z: Sorry I was just trying to catch up on what was said.
Laura Z: I'm about a minute off of I40.
Laura Z: At least till later this month.
Laura Z: Why?
Marta Pires: Thanks for the tip.
Sandra Dodd: And if it seems too much you can breathe through your mouth to get more oxygen and counteract it.
Sandra Dodd: Holly is planning to drive across the country at the end of this month and is looking for overnight host spots, and was excited to hear that I thought you might be near the freeway.
Laura Z: Oh and I had a roller skating accident as a kid...took my brothers too big roller skates, snuck to a street around the corner and when I put one on and tried to stand, I twisted my ankle and put a hairline fracture, enough to have a cast, and no riding for a month (which didn't stop me).
Laura Z: Oh it might be better at the end of the month because our house will be bigger, but we'll be further away (but still not very far at all).
Heather Booth: Which way across the country?
Laura Z: She's welcome to come stay with us.
Sandra Dodd: Toward Laura.
Sandra Dodd: She's planning to go and have her birthday at Gail Higgin's house in Asheville NC. Not a solid plan, but a birthday wish at this point.
Laura Z: I'll send you the address Sandra.
Laura Z: If she doesn't mind wading through some not totally settled in moving.
Sandra Dodd: We're about 8 miles from I-40 here. Our old house, where Marty lives, is half a mile.
Sandra Dodd: She won't care.
Laura Z: When is her bday Sandra? Mine is in two weeks.
Sandra Dodd: Her birthday is November 2.
Laura Z: Cool.
Laura Z: We are moving around the 20th, so we'll be living in the house officially at that point, but hopefully moving some stuff before then.
Sandra Dodd: Thanks for considering it. She'll need a place between here and there, but personally I'm a big fan of motels. I don't think Holly is, though.
Laura Z: hmmm Where is everyone today?
Laura Z: Let me try to roust a couple of people.
Sandra Dodd: Laura, don't ask in public. That hasn't gone well in the past.
Sandra Dodd: I would rather have people who know what's up and thought in advance about being here.
Laura Z: Nope not asking in public, just reminding a couple of people.
Sandra Dodd: Okay.
Sandra Dodd: I've asked in public and spent the next 20 minutes explaining how the chat room works.
AlexPolikowsky3 joined the chat
Sandra Dodd: Hi, Alex. Light day. Two minutes.
Sandra Dodd: I'm ready to zoom!
AlexPolikowsky3: Sorry! I meant to be here but Daniel and I started making brownies and I forgot!
Marta BP joined the chat
AlexPolikowsky3: I am here now!
Sandra Dodd: 45 minutes on the first topic Truth/Honesty/Lies, page 242 of The Big Book of Unschooling, corresponds to http://sandradodd.com/integrity
Sandra Dodd: 45 minutes on the first topic: Truth/Honesty/Lies, page 242 of The Big Book of Unschooling, corresponds to http://sandradodd.com/integrity
Laura Z: It's perfect time for baking isn't it! I'm making a dutch apple baby thingamajigger (Caitlyn's favorite new word!)
Sandra Dodd: Then at 1:15 if we're still on that, someone remind me to move to the other one please.
Marta BP joined the chat
AlexPolikowsky3: Nice Laura!
Sandra Dodd: Thingamajigger is nice. I like the Spanish "como se llama" (what's-it-called) which is quite common in northern New Mexico.
Virginia Warren: We go to "kajigger", from Futurama.
Sandra Dodd: So about truth and honesty, y'know when you're editing a photo and it's possible to crank the exposure and brightness up so high you can't see anything but white?
Sandra Dodd: That ends up not being the picture.
Sandra Dodd: TOO much bright. Too much "whiter."
Marta BP: Yes.
Sandra Dodd: I've been watching courtroom dramas, and it's possible to say TOO much.
Sandra Dodd: And I was detained by immigration at Heathrow, because I chit-chatted instead of answering the questions yes or no without chitchat.
AlexPolikowsky3: I am a much honest person now than before. I grew up hearing that white lies were OK and seeing people tell lies, not big ones, the so called white lies, and say that they were not hurting anyone. You know what? They really are harmful. Lies, even little ones, will destroy trust. I always thought of myself as an honest person but I can see now that I used to tell those white lies, not to hurt people's feelings sometimes, and that is dishonest.
Sandra Dodd: (that and being white/female/native-English-speaking/likely-Christian/older)
Sandra Dodd: I was a statistical bonanza when they were in trouble for detaining only seemingly-Persianesque-young-males.
AlexPolikowsky3: Still working on myself about talking too much, Sandra.
Sandra Dodd: I've had friends try to persuade me my whole life that "white lies" weren't lies, but they are.
Jill Parmer: Interesting, Sandra.
Laura Z: I still talk way too much, and am working on honesty. Just another benefit radical unschooling has brought to my life.
AlexPolikowsky3: Yes, they are. If you watch someone tell white lies and then you ask that person a question, how do you know they are telling the truth? Trust is gone.
Sandra Dodd: I was willing to consider it, and I watched my white-lying friends in action for a few decades, and while sometimes it can brighten a moment for someone to say a cheery bit of bullshit, it could have been avoided, and the benefit is temporary.
Sandra Dodd: Yes, Alex. I certainly lost faith in those friends, hearing their confessions and justifications and defenses for being dishonest. So it goes.
Virginia Warren: There is a popular conception of "politeness" that involves lots of "white lies". Saying you like things you don't like, and saying you don't like things you do.
Sandra Dodd: They're able to make business deals and glad-hand people and work a crowd and make a party sparkle.
Laura Z: Or giving complements because you're expected whether they are true or not.
Virginia Warren: My husband was raised with that conception of politeness.
Sandra Dodd: But people can, with just a little bit more thought, say something sociable and polite AND truthful.
Jill Parmer: It's arrogant to think you're going to save someone else from the truth. I want to make my own decisions.
Virginia Warren: He was also raised where the only "crime" for which he received corporal punishment was lying.
AlexPolikowsky3: My mom is wonderful but she always told white lies. To make people feel better or not feel bad most of the time, her intentions were very good. But today I do not trust her to be telling me the truth. It is sad. I love her but I don't trust her to tell me the truth.
Sandra Dodd: But that doesn't mean it will help for people to cold-heartedly "tell truth" that's really insult.
Jill Parmer: Will you give some examples or stories of that?
Sandra Dodd: Specify, please, Jill.
Sandra Dodd: Whose stories of what?
AlexPolikowsky3: Yes, Sandra I agree that you can say nice and polite things without telling a lie.
Jill Parmer: Sandra. I see people get so easily offended.
Heather Booth: Laura: The compliment thing is weird to me. I had a neighbor who I think felt she always had to compliment me when she saw me. It was usually weight oriented. "You look good! Have you lost weight?" It was so offensive to me..
Jill Parmer: Polite, honest, socially nice.
Sandra Dodd: You said "It's arrogant to think you're going to save someone else from the truth." No example popped into my head on that one, but I didn't want to agree that anyone who has "truth" is obligated to share it.
Virginia Warren: Heather, I get that from my mother, my MIL, female acquaintences...
Jill Parmer: Examples of what you were saying.
Sandra Dodd: I don't mind people saying things like "I'm glad to see you!" even if I suspect they are neutral or dismayed.
ErikaE joined the chat
AlexPolikowsky3: For example Jill. When I used to groom dogs people would ask me what they thought about their dogs because I showed dogs. I could always tell them something really nice about their dogs, all were true, no lies.
AlexPolikowsky3: "I love your dog's color and he is such a happy dog"
Sandra Dodd: If someone doesn't like tattoos and they're around a group of people with tattoos, it won't help for them to go on a rant, nor even to bring it up. It might be true that they don't like tattoos, but it won't be helpful.
Sandra Dodd: It would be insult, at that point.
AlexPolikowsky3: I did not have to tell them that their poodle looked like they bred a poodle to a porcupine!
Sandra Dodd: But if someone were matchmaking for that person and asked, one-on-one, whether tattoos were exciting, or just neutral or repellant, then it's a good time for her to tell the truth. Where it's just a simple question and not personal and emotional and antagonistic.
Virginia Warren: People lie to avoid discussions they don't want to have.
Sandra Dodd: There's a time and a place for information. For some information, there's hardly any time or place.
AlexPolikowsky3: You can say you would not get a tattoo yourself but if they love it then that is great.
AlexPolikowsky3: Brownies ready!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sandra Dodd: There are dodges—technical truths that are ways not to spill all one knows.
Marta BP: Virginia, I'm guilty of doing that with my parents. This is an issue that still isn't clear for me yet, so I'm really glad that the topic was it today.
Virginia Warren: It is a very big issue with my family.
Virginia Warren: I need a lot of help here, also.
Sandra Dodd: If someone asks me where Keith is and I know Keith wouldn't want to have them show up where he is at that moment, I might say "I'm not totally sure," or "What's Keith doing?" I could say "I know he's got a couple of things planned this afternoon, but I'm not sure if he's started yet."
Marta BP: For a long time, I lied to my parents about almost everything and I was always what one could consider a good girl. So I would lie about trivial things, but I would.
Sandra Dodd: I don't have to say "He's on the toilet."
Sandra Dodd: I certainly don't need to say "He doesn't want to hang out today; he's recovering from a hard day at work and you'll make it worse."
Marta BP: Trivial and not so trivial too. I was afraid they would be disappointed, I think. I was afraid my mom would disapprove and emotionally withdraw herself.
Sandra Dodd: But I would NOT say "He's not here" if he was.
Sandra Dodd: So within each person, with practice, there can be ways to protect people with words without lying. It does take some thought.
Virginia Warren: The first time I met my husbands parents, he had to coach me. They were under the impression that he was taking college courses. He was not. There was a lot of pressure on him from them about that. That was his solution, at the time.
Marta BP: Then, there came a phase when I started to rebel and I thought that I had to tell the truth, because I shouldn't need to lie.
Sandra Dodd: That's a lot of responsibility, Marta, to feel that you need to keep your mom that happy.
Sandra Dodd: How old you were at "rebellion" time?
Marta BP: I know, Sandra. I can feel it. Less now, but it's still here.
AlexPolikowsky3: I have an example. My mother in law was here having lunch with me yesterday. I said Daniel was waking up early and going to be early (he is getting up around 4 AM just a little before dad does) she she asks me "Is he helping feed calves?" I know that is a loaded question for her so I said: "calves don't get fed until 8 AM" So I did not really answer her. I did dodge. But it was not a lie and I kept the peace.
Marta BP: It wasn't long ago, the rebellion phase.
Marta BP: Maybe before I found radical unschooling.
Sandra Dodd: Virginia, if your relatives don't want to discuss something to the point they will lie to dodge the conversation, can't you just take that as communication and let it go?
Sandra Dodd: You were already grown? In your 20's?
Marta BP: 30's.
Virginia Warren: I didn't object to it. I considered not being honest with parents completely normal.
Sandra Dodd: Marty said something really wise that has helped me. We had a friend we all really liked—he was friends with me, Holly and Marty all separately, in different ways. He would tell me with ENTHUSIASM that he was going to come over in an hour, or tomorrow, or after work—some time frame. And he meant it!
Sandra Dodd: And so I would plan around it, make him a snack maybe, be there. Wait.
Sandra Dodd: And he was more likely not to come over than to come over.
Sandra Dodd: He's not the only one in my life, but he was the worst and most recent unreliable flakey friend of that nature.
AlexPolikowsky3: Also my mother in law asked if Daniel liked math. I said he did really well and did percentages really good, well he really does, thanks to video games! And uses percentages a lot when talking about other things and making jokes! Learned all in games!
Sandra Dodd: So one day I told Marty I couldn't do something, go somewhere, because the friend was coming and Marty said "Mom, it's Ben..." And it was building up—every time I was crankier. Marty just laughed and I asked how he kept from being bothered by it.
Sandra Dodd: Marty had another couple of friends with similar habits, and Marty said "I say 'That would be nice!'"
Sandra Dodd: So if Ben told Marty "i'm coming over tomorrow," Marty would say "That would be nice." And Marty would mean it.
Sandra Dodd: And then whether the friend showed up or not, both had been truthful and Marty hadn't solidly planned, expected, looked at clocks, been bummed.
Marta BP: I'm more thoughtful and aware now, I don't feel the need to rebel (I feel calmer) and I don't feel so afraid, but I still have a hard time dodging confidently. I think that's it.
Sandra Dodd: To the math questions, I would tell a story, or say he played lots of games that involved patterns and puzzles, or that Holly was great with money and bookkeeping or something I knew the person would be interested in, that was solid and recent and mathematical.
Marta BP: I saw my Mom do this with my grandmother (her mom) for all her life. She would lie about almost everything.
Sandra Dodd: Alex, this kind of dodge I don't think is dishonest: "I said: "calves don't get fed until 8." You stated a fact, and she was asking in a half-argumentative (maybe) way.
Sandra Dodd: So you avoided an argument.
Sandra Dodd: Keith dodges answering, but he's very calm.
Sandra Dodd: I'm excitable and talk too much.
Sandra Dodd: Holly seems to be the irritating combination of talks too much and dodges, Keith-style.
Sandra Dodd: I'm trying to be amused by it rather than appalled.
Sandra Dodd: Marty is like Keith in temperament AND dodging direct answers.
Sandra Dodd: So Marty I know how to deal with.
Sandra Dodd: Keith I just learned to ignore. I took his irritating non-sequitor answers as "I would rather not talk about that," and over the years figured out how to ask a different way a while later, if it really mattered.
Sandra Dodd: Things like "Did you feed the cats?" from me might get "The cats aren't hungry" from Keith.
Sandra Dodd: My dad was very honest. My mom was mostly honest.
Sandra Dodd: But as she got older and more alcoholic, she lied more and more, until at the end it was more lies than not.
Sandra Dodd: I think alcohol takes over and defends itself until the alcoholic is just the host body and says what the alcohol tells her to say.
Sandra Dodd: Drugs and crime/fear can do that, too.
Marta BP: For instance, regarding our decision to homeschool, my parents don't know yet (let alone that we intend to unschool). I know that I'm afraid of their reaction (reading Deb Lewis's talk about courage was really good for me), but I don't want to feel like I live another life (which I've always felt, a bit), nor do I want fear to guide my decisions. I want to feel peace.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe you could write a letter to them, Marta, explaining it, and saying you're going to try it for a while, and if it stops working to your satisfaction and Bruno's (specify that it's not to THEIR specifications)... that you'll put her in school.
Sandra Dodd: Giving hope can be magic.
Sandra Dodd: Telling my boys "you can hit him IF first you talk about it, and if that doesn't work get a grown-up's help, and THEN if that doesn't work you can hit him" was much nicer than "Never hit."
Marta BP: That's an idea.
Jill Parmer: The peacefulness needs to be in you and not because of your mom's reaction. Does a big statement need to be made about homeschooling?
Sandra Dodd: And if you and Bruno decided it wasn't working you probably would put her in school, so it's true.
Marta BP: Yes, Sandra.
Sandra Dodd: If you write a letter and it's on paper then the recipient can't misquote you to other relatives or say "I didn't know that's what you meant."
Marta BP: I agree, Jill, it needs to be in me. That's what I'm trying to work on.
Sandra Dodd: You keep a copy of the letter in case it's misrepresented later and you can give it to the other relatives if they say "Mom says you said..."
Sandra Dodd: I think the way to have peace is to have stated your position clearly in black and white, sweetly, firmly, and then live that way.
Sandra Dodd: When people play it like a chess game, one little pawn out to the parents and in-laws, sometimes they get checkmated early on and don't know why.
Marta BP: Yes, I like that idea. In a family where some people lie/hide things, it's good to have something solid.
Sandra Dodd: It's because when you make one small move, the other person gets to make a move.
Heather Booth: I used to be really nervous around my parents when we first started unschooling. I noticed after my dad visited this past weekend how much calmer I was. I didn't feel worn out.
Sandra Dodd: If you don't want to play it as a game where the other person can take control of the board, then state your whole, decided position and don't let them make a move. Don't say "And this is the way it will be until she's grown," because that will not, cannot, be known so it's not true.
Sandra Dodd: It should be something you renew as it works, and improve as you know more, and that could be cancelled by you and your husband, but NOT by others around you.
Marta BP: -=-I think the way to have peace is to have stated your position clearly in black and white, sweetly, firmly, and then live that way.-=- Yes!
Sandra Dodd: You have more to show now, Heather.
Sandra Dodd: Real personal experience, not vague understanding of other people's claims, and that makes a huge difference.
Sandra Dodd: You're confident and experienced.
Heather Booth: Yup. And I feel more grounded, solid, less shakey about unschooling.
Marta BP: When I'm anxious, the sweetness seems to disappear. Maybe breathing more?
Sandra Dodd: Like really riding a bike rather than trying to ride a bike.
Sandra Dodd: More grounded, solid, less shakey.
Sandra Dodd: Everyone's sweetness disappears when anxiety comes.
Sandra Dodd: Biochemical mysteries will be gradually unravelled and future generations won't be as vague and clueless about it all as we are, I'm sure.
Marta BP: Good!
Sandra Dodd: "Honesty" can be used like a bludgeon.
Sandra Dodd: One day my mom wanted a ride to the bar and I had friends over and said I would take her later. But she needed, REALLY Needed, to drink SOON, and sooner.
Sandra Dodd: So she ended up coming in and insulting me and my boring friends. Our conversation was boring and my friends (she said, to me, in front of them) were boring.
Sandra Dodd: I wasn't honest in return right at that moment. I think I arranged for someone else to give her a ride, but our relationship was further eroded.
Sandra Dodd: We weren't saying anything of interest to her anyway, and she was getting desperate to drink.
Sandra Dodd: I was in my early 20's, by the way—not a kid. And she was living in my house.
Sandra Dodd: And I LIKED those friends, and we were having fun.
Sandra Dodd: Finding ways to soften insults is kind. Finding ways to say "i like your dog's color and she's always happy" is great.
Sandra Dodd: Avoiding making statement that don't match objective, photographable truth is wonderful.
Sandra Dodd: "I have dinner in the oven" when the oven isn't even turned on and "dinner" is imaginary isn't good no matter who you've said it to.
Heather Booth: Last night Austin was telling us how mad he is at George Lucas for selling his Star Wars rights to Disney.
Sandra Dodd: George Lucas was losing it, though. At least he didn't give it to someone who couldn't maintain it.
Heather Booth: He's been talking about it a lot since it happened. Monty said something about Austin just parroting what he's hearing on youtube.
Heather Booth: It was harsh.
Sandra Dodd: Jean Liedloff gave the rights to "The Continuum Concept" to someone who's not an anthropologist at all.
Sandra Dodd: Lots of kids try out other people's ideas.
Heather Booth: Austin got upset and left the room. I know Monty realized it as soon as he said it that it was to harsh, but it's out there now.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe you could ask Austin what the alternatives might have been.
Sandra Dodd: And if Austin WAS honestly parroting, it will be something for him to consider.
Sandra Dodd: I'm guessing Austin's aware of people being mad at Lucas for changing the movies.
Sandra Dodd: So really, it's just Lucas's stuff, and not everyone's.
Sandra Dodd: The U.S. isn't a direct democracy, and so really no one should expect Lucasfilms to have been.
Heather Booth: Oh yea. And he is repeating things he's hearing his favorite you tubers talk about. I think what Monty was trying to say was something like, "Talk to me about what you think about it." but it came out really, really harsh.
Sandra Dodd
Austin and Star Wars could be a good sequel to Part II, related but different.
Fact/Fallacy/Opinion, pages 243-244 of The Big Book of Unschooling, or if you don't have the book, this might help: http://sandradodd.com/logic
Heather Booth: Very nice.
Sandra Dodd: When I was teaching, the state of New Mexico (or maybe it was a federal project) told all the English teachers to do this little unit on fact and opinion. I think it was to help kids learn to interpret data—the news, campaign advertisements, voter/ballot materials—to be more responsible citizens. I don't remember now.
Sandra Dodd: So there was some material that went with it, and there was a pre-test, and then a couple of days' worth of discussion and then a test at the end, similar to the first one.
Sandra Dodd: And similar to the first one, there was a serious problem with it.
Heather Booth: I have gotten annoyed when Austin is repeating what he hears on You Tube as his opinion, but then I do try to remember that he's trying out different opinions and I have a conversation with him about it instead of being annoyed.
Sandra Dodd: Because the choices on these statements was "fact" and "opinion."
Sandra Dodd: But some of the statements were neither.
Sandra Dodd: Or were potentially neither.
Sandra Dodd: One said "It is 70 degrees outside."
Sandra Dodd: 21 C for Europeans.
Sandra Dodd: So that's fine, if it's true. It's not a matter of opinion. But if it's 80 degrees outside, then it is not fact, and it is not opinion. It is fallacy.
Sandra Dodd: And I don't think the state wanted me critiquing their materials for the benefit of 14 and 15 year olds, but screw 'em. I don't have to teach a fallacy as a fact.
Sandra Dodd
And so with the George Lucas business, it might be worth sorting through some fact and some opinion and some fallacy.
If Lucas isn't mentally alert and with it anymore, it's better to pass the franchise on.
Sandra Dodd
If/then is another piece of good logic you might share with Austin. IF X is true, then what?
Sandra Dodd: Half logic, half programming, half game strategy. That's three halfs. Could be all of them. Back to one half.
Heather Booth: Good point. I don't have a strong opinion about it so I haven't looked into much. My only counter argument has been, "But Disney makes some pretty good movies."
Sandra Dodd
It can come back to truth. Yesterday Marty and I had the unscheduled joy of getting his jeep registered after the registration had expired. It involved this: Emissions inspection fail; buy a gas cap Jeep dealer, gas cap purchase home, get the phone Marty left, find out what the dentist told Holly, put the gas cap on go back to emissions point, pay $12 for retest Go to Motor Vehicles office, wait a while, pay money, fees, fine.
Sandra Dodd: Somewhere in there I said "I'm worried that..." and said something about health insurance, and Marty, and money, somehow, I don't remember now.
Sandra Dodd: Marty said "That's not true," and started to defend himself about something.
Sandra Dodd: I said "It is true that I'm worried."
Sandra Dodd: So he agreed, and just stated the comforting truths without accusing me of having said something untrue.
Sandra Dodd: So sometimes being careful about how you word your statement is the difference between truth and lies.
Sandra Dodd: A few years back, Keith was watching too much news at work.
Sandra Dodd: He was coming home all pumped full of theoretical problems and issues that were not ours, that didn't live at our house, that we couldn't do anything about.
Sandra Dodd: One day I was being overwhelmed by his intensity and I asked whether they were going to call and ask Keith. Who? The secretary of state. The president. Were they going to call and ask him what they should do?
Sandra Dodd: Maybe it was as mean as Monty to Austin.
Sandra Dodd: But I had tried more gently saying I thought it would work out without Keith being torn up about it.
Sandra Dodd: And that maybe he should watch happier news some of the time.
Marta BP: -=-So sometimes being careful about how you word your statement is the difference between truth and lies.-=- I really really liked this.
Sandra Dodd: There are some "facts" that don't have anything to do with me.
Sandra Dodd: No sense collecting all the facts in the world into a pile to feel knowledgeable and righteous if it's not things that make your family's life better that day.
Sandra Dodd: Marta, qualifying statements is like magic.
Sandra Dodd: "I think it's cold outside" makes truth. "It is cold outside" is going to be an "it depends" situation, in many cases.
Sandra Dodd: "Many of my relatives will be here" might be true, but "All of my relatives will be here" isn't likely as true.
Sandra Dodd: Most, maybe, many, it seems, I think, largely, usually, probably, might...
Marta BP: Yes.
Sandra Dodd: Safety in qualifiers.
Sandra Dodd: Oh hey—maybe some of you know this. In English, "the five W's" (who what where why when)—do they have other names? I'm guessing Spanish might be five Q's or some such.
Sandra Dodd: French? Portuguese?
Sandra Dodd: I'd like to know before the 25th.
Marta BP: Sometimes I feel cornered by my family (by my parents and aunt, in particular). They insist a lot. It can be about simple things like cutting Conchinha's hair. At first, I manage to answer calmly, using qualifiers and all , but when they continue, when they insist, I start to get tired and that's when I'm not so nice or when I say something that isn't true, to see if they back off.
Marta BP: Ok. In Portuguese (in that order): Quem, O quê, Onde, Porquê, Quando. So 2 Q's, 2 O's and 1 P.
Sandra Dodd: Is there a name for that set of questions?
Sandra Dodd: And as to insistent questions, I always liked asking them "Why do you think so?"
Sandra Dodd: or "What are you worried about?"
Jill Parmer: Is it cultural, what your family does, Marta?
Marta BP: Sandra, I don't think there's a name for that set of questions, but I'm not sure. Just asked Bruno and he doesn't know either.
Sandra Dodd: I guess in Spanish it's quien, que, donde, porque and cuando, so only two good Qu's.
Marta BP: I don't know, Jill.
Marta BP: French: Qui, Quoi, Oú, Porquoi, Quand (I think)
Sandra Dodd: Thanks, Marta.
Sandra Dodd: So fallacy, either just mistakenly false, or based on shaky logic for false premises.
Sandra Dodd: Fallacies aren't always lies.
Sandra Dodd: And I guess when one is absolute falsehood, then "fallacy" is too gentle a term for it.
Sandra Dodd: My current project is trying not to ask questions I don't reall want an answer to, or that I was asking just conversationally, maybe.
Sandra Dodd: It's a particular angle of trying not to talk as much.
Marta BP: With Keith and Holly?
Marta BP:
Sandra Dodd: Mostly
Marta BP: You said something that I think can be really useful for couples. -=-Keith I just learned to ignore. I took his irritating non-sequitor answers as "I would rather not talk about that," and over the years figured out how to ask a different way a while later, if it really mattered.-=-
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes because they might not want to talk (so I'm crowding them) and sometimes because I won't understand the answer or will forget the details, so I shouldn't ask them to report something to me.
Marta BP: The figuring out how to ask.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe with less talking, there's less possibility of dishonesty, fallacy.
Sandra Dodd: Truth will still be there.
Marta BP: Yes.
Sandra Dodd: It would be fun to peek and see what cool stuff people are doing who have wandered away from the chat. But it's time, and I'm going to go see how Holly's doing.
Sandra Dodd: Thank you for being here, Marta and all.
Marta BP: And I'm going to finish my pizza.
Marta BP: Thank you Sandra, for hosting the chat!
Sandra Dodd: I think I'll call apple care this afternoon and see if they can help me get my skype to work.
Marta BP: It was an important chat for me.
Marta BP: Yes!
Sandra Dodd left the chat
Marta BP: Bye everyone!
Marta BP left the chat
Jill Parmer left the chat
ErikaE left this message:
I was here just reading though. Thank you all for the chat.
Heather Booth: Dang! One o'clock snuck up on me!
Heather Booth: Bye everyone!
ErikaE left this message:
Bye all!
ErikaE left the chat
Virginia Warren left the chat
Laura Z left the chat
