From Sandra's notes for today's chat:
"What, in life, is "natural"? People talk about natural learning, and natural foods, and natural instincts. Human "nature." It's all words.
Are words natural? Where's the edge of "natural"?
Recently I've read that it might be that all the heavy metals are here from meteors and meteorites. If they're not from this planet, are the "natural"? But aren't meteors natural?
Is this too simple a question? Too complex?"
Marta Pires joined the chat 14 days ago
Russ joined the chat 13 days ago
Robin B. joined the chat 13 days ago
Sandra Dodd joined the chat 13 days ago
Sandra Dodd: Is this Russ of Robin and Russ?
Sandra Dodd: No, that's Ross.
Robin B.: Right!
Sandra Dodd: 
Sandra Dodd: How is Ross this week?
Misa joined the chat 13 days ago
Sandra Dodd: Hello, Russ. I like your color.
Robin B.: Getting better, bit by bit, Sandra. Thanks for asking. He's frustrated, though. He's an active guy and sitting on his butt is driving him crazy.
He's frustrated, though. He's an active guy and sitting on his butt is driving him crazy.
Sandra Dodd: Too bad there's no surrogacy in the medically-mandated butt-sitting. I could sit for people.
Robin B.: I will be leaving the chat a bit early to take him to a coffee business meeting.
Sandra Dodd: I could take tests for people too. It's just that it's so illegal.
Robin B.: Yes! I wish I could do that, too! I'd be good at it.
Robin B.: That would be unnatural, wouldn't it? 
Marta Pires: Hehehe
Misa: When Pokemon was big, I got paid to sit in line to wait to get stuff. One guy played games as part of a medically mandated mental health program.
Misa: So, I guess there's that. Surrogate medically-mandated butt-sitting to buy Pokemon stuff.
Robin B.: When Pokemon was big? Like right now?
Robin B.: Biggest Pokemon Center ever just opened in Japan.
Sandra Dodd: That's so close, Misa!
Robin B.: I could do that job, Misa.
Sandra Dodd: What's at the Pokemon Center?
Misa: No. Like when you were limited to only buying X amount of product each day from a store and when even that meant standing in line for sometimes an hour or more.
Russ: Hi, sorry I was away from keyboard for a sec. I'm Russ Schick, a newbie.
Robin B.: I actually have. Midnight releases!
Robin B.: Games, cards, plushies, all kinds of swag.
Sandra Dodd: I'm planning to go to the post office this afternoon, to make a box of gifts to Kirby's family in Texas, and some luggage tags with the details of Holly's next to trips, to India.
Robin B.: There's one in NYC.
Sandra Dodd: I'm already planning what to take with me for my long post office wait, so I can be happy and patient.
Robin B.: We stood in line in Hawai'i, at the midnight release of the most recent Pokemon games.
Sandra Dodd: Russ, we chit-chat until there are ten people, or the first half hour passes, and then we go to the topic.
Robin B.: Hi Russ! Welcome.
Sandra Dodd: If you have any other intro you want to share, or if you have questions, it's a good time.
Misa: Kai, who was barely six at the time, stood/sat in line for about nine or ten hours to wait for a concert (with a few breaks). He's kind of used to it because we do lots of midnight releases.
Russ: Sounds great, I'm from Collingwood, Ontario, Canada, and my son Trevor is 11 and started unschooling last March.
Robin B.: Collingwood! I grew up in Ottawa.
Russ: I don't have any specific questions right now - just looking for other unschoolers to talk to so I don't feel like I'm the only one in the world that unschool's their kid.
SaraVaz joined the chat 13 days ago
SaraVaz: Hi everyone!
Russ: I lived in Kanata for a few years when I was a kid, and I lived in Renfrew during high school!
Robin B.: Russ, maybe Pam Laricchia (who's in Toronto and writes fabulously about unschooling), can connect you with other families.
AlexPolikowsky1 joined the chat 13 days ago
Robin B.: Small world!
Russ: I will do that, I've read a lot of Pam's writing and she seems amazing.
AlexPolikowsky1: I am naturally sick ! Hello Nature!
Robin B.: Sandra, does Pam run a chat or FB group?
Sandra Dodd joined the chat 13 days ago
Robin B.: Alex, surrounded by natural cows.
Serah joined the chat 13 days ago
Sandra Dodd: I don't think she does, Robin. Just her newsletter, blog-announcements, that sort of thing.
Robin B.: Right.
AlexPolikowsky1: and natural manure smell! awwwwwwwwwwwww! Pure country natural air!
Sandra Dodd: She's been in on the podcasts that Amy Childs is doing. Have you heard any of those, Russ?
Misa: But she does have that wonderful unschooling newbie email series. Russ, if you've not subscribed to it, I highly recommend it.
Robin B.: "Smells like money" right Alex?
Russ: Yeah, I found those a few weeks ago, they are excellent!
Sandra Dodd: http://unschoolingsupport.com
Serah: What's this I see.... a local body! Hi Russ We are in Brampton! Not too far from you
We are in Brampton! Not too far from you
Sandra Dodd: (for the record, I'm leaving the link anyway)
AlexPolikowsky1: That is what they say Robin but I cannot find the dang money anywhere! Sneaky !
Robin B.: We lived in cow country amongst the corn fields when I was little (Gloucester, Russ <g>). A daily experience, that smell.
Sandra Dodd: Russ, if you're willing to share contact information with Serah, she can let you know about something happening in May.
Robin B.: Oh, yes! Serah's in Ontario, too!
AlexPolikowsky1: And Serah has two awesome sons.
Russ: Absolutely, russ@bellwoods.ca is my email address.
Russ: Hi Serah, great to meet you!
AlexPolikowsky1: One is around 11 right Serah?
Serah: Ya, my boys are 10 & 12
Robin B.: Hi Sara and Serah.
AlexPolikowsky1: They have been to my house here in Minnesota!
Serah: Hi Everyone
Russ: Misa, yeah I have been receiving the email series too, it's been very helpful.
Misa: Also, Pam
Misa: Also, Pam's books are FABULOUS. They're some of the first I recommend to people. (And Sandra's.)
Robin B.: Yes. I agree, Misa.
AlexPolikowsky1: I agree!
Serah: Russ, I took down your email and will send you something shortly
Sandra Dodd: Pam's books are less expensive. Mine have photos. Hers are good for skeptical relatives. Mine aren't. Mine assume someone's already past the "What are you talking about?" stage.
Robin B.:
Sandra Dodd: I am slow enough with easy names like Russ and Ross.... take me time to learn names. So I don't know Serah's boys names yet. But one of them, when we met said "You're Sandra Dodd? I wanted to meet you."
Sandra Dodd: I THOUGHT that's what he said.
Sandra Dodd: It wasn't.
Sandra Dodd: I thought "How polite. How nice of him."
Sandra Dodd: But it turned out he was saying "I want to BEAT you."
Misa: Pams are more, uh, gentle. Sandra's are kind of more direct.
Russ: I have Pam's book "Life through the lens of unschooling", but I need to get her other books
Sandra Dodd: How less polite than I thought! He had a words/connections game he thought I would like and hoped I would play and that he would win.
He had a words/connections game he thought I would like and hoped I would play and that he would win.
Sandra Dodd: I played.
Sandra Dodd: He beat me severely.
Robin B.: Ha!
Sandra Dodd: My excuses of being old and tired didn't affect his joy.
Marta Pires: Hahaha 
Serah: ha ha! He is very competitive
Misa: Kai said that we should have a gaming convention for unschoolers where we only do things related to gaming.
Sandra Dodd: Where, Misa? Invite us over.
Robin B.: We'll be there in a heartbeat, Misa.
Sandra Dodd: I talked to Chris and Renee Cabatic about doing one that was nothing but music.
Misa: My place isn't big enough and we're too broke to start our own thing right now, but I've seriously considered it for the future.
AlexPolikowsky1: Unschooling Conferences is full of gaming!!!
Sandra Dodd
We thought about it and lost steam.
The one I'm doing here soon is more leaning toward art than any I've seen yet. Art and patterns, a mathematical kind of art. Rangoli, and celtic knotwork.
Robin B.: Not enough gaming for my kid, though.
AlexPolikowsky1: are full of Gaming! Dang I am doing worse than normal.
Sandra Dodd: I'm taking geoboards and rubber bands, because that's something else based on lines around dots, as the other two are.
Robin B.: That's why she likes anime conventions. Gaming and cosplay - her two favorite things.
Misa: We actually haven't been able to make it to an unschooling conference yet. But we did GenCon (a gaming convention) this summer and Kai thinks that is the best thing ever.
Serah: oh I LOVE celtic knotwork... that would be fun to learn
Sandra Dodd: What I asked Marty and Ashlee for for Christmas was for them to come to the symposium one or two nights to play games with people.
Robin B.: Misa, we've been to Blizzcon twice.
AlexPolikowsky1: I hope my kids want to cosplay again this year! I loved going to those! And the kids were mostly so kind to each other and supportive
AlexPolikowsky1: The parents there were too!
Sandra Dodd: They're both working fulltime and can't come and just hang out, but they agreed to help me.
Misa: That's kind of them.
Robin B.: That's sweet, Sandra.
AlexPolikowsky1: Fun!
Serah: so nice, Sandra. It's lovely meeting your kids and playing games with them. I know we loved that when we came to Abq
Robin B.: Sandra's kids are pretty awesome.
Misa: I find myself getting really stubborn about things lately. Someone asked me, "What games do you homeschool with?" "All of them and none of them at the same time, depending on how you look at it."
Sandra Dodd
Thanks, Serah.
Next year Kirby has promised to be here for it, and Rose Sorooshian (who comes with Daniel, who will be her husband by then).
Marta Pires: I hope I get to meet them next year!
Robin B.: "What games do you homeschool with?"??
Sandra Dodd: Misa, it's not stubborn, it's precise. You're becoming more philosophical and aware, maybe.
Robin B.: Wrong emphasis.
Serah: Marta are you going to Abq next year? I would love to meet you
Sandra Dodd: The "Don't you use books?" or "You don't use any BOOKS?" was always my favorite irritating question.
AlexPolikowsky1: I am lucky to have seen Marty up on stage leading fun things iwth the kids. I really wanted to meet older unschooling kids then. that was 7 years ago. Made an impression I have seen his smile and heard him talk so I can picture him.
Marta Pires: That are our plans, Serah! And I'd love to meet you too! Are you considering going?
Sandra Dodd: (I'm waiting excitedly for Serah's response here...)
Serah: sigh... one step at a time...
Sandra Dodd: It's crazy. It's too far.
Sandra Dodd: Don't. I'd feel bad.
Misa: I had someone recently ask me, when I talked about what we did, "Well, but how do you make lesson plans that way?" At some point, you've just gotta let it go.
Serah: focussing on getting Sandra to Toronto first
Marta Pires: Oh, that's true! You're in Canada!
Marta Pires: Yes, I know.
Serah: Maybe... you could stop in toronto on your way!!!!
AlexPolikowsky1: Serah if you want to drive to Albuquerque you can stop here and sleep over! Maybe
Sandra Dodd: So! What's natural and unnatural?
AlexPolikowsky1: It we are on the way
Serah: I MISS YOU ALEX!!!!!
AlexPolikowsky1: Me too <3
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes it doesn't matter, and sometimes within the context of one discussion or question, it seems more crucial than anything ever was crucial.
Serah: The boys were saying they want to go visit you all again!!!
Serah: Why does Minnesota need to be so far away
Virginia W joined the chat 13 days ago
AlexPolikowsky1
One of the definitions of Natural
"existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind."
"existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind."
Virginia W: Sorry I'm late, just finished reading back
Sandra Dodd: Schuyler's husband is a professor at a medical school. He teachers "evolutionary biology." He studies what is natural, in humans, and how we've changed and are changing.
Sandra Dodd: Alex, that's so irritating, isn't it?
Sandra Dodd: (Sorry. I shouldn't draw you into an agreement.)
Sandra Dodd: That irritates me, because it sets humans outside of nature
Sandra Dodd: Is honey natural?
Virginia W: Misa, we would go to unschooling gaming conference
Sandra Dodd: In India, when they use dried cow patties for cooking fuel... natural or unnatural?
AlexPolikowsky1
Well it is made by bees and bees are natural
So if that was a line of thinking- If it is made by humans , and we are from nature....
So if that was a line of thinking- If it is made by humans , and we are from nature....
Sandra Dodd: Laplanders and Mongolian yurt-guys (what's that group called? Just "Mongolians"??).... alcoholic beverages made of milk, or some such. Natural?
Misa: In that case, is there anything unnatural
Misa: ?
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes humans declare something "unnatural" because it is foreign to their own culture and so they think it's gross.
AlexPolikowsky1
Here is the full definition by the Merrian -Webster
"1.: based on an inherent sense of right and wrong <natural justice>
2
a : being in accordance with or determined by nature
b : having or constituting a classification based on features existing in nature
3
a (1) : begotten as distinguished from adopted; also : legitimate (2) : being a relation by actual consanguinity as distinguished from adoption <natural parents>
b : illegitimate <a natural child>
4
: having an essential relation with someone or something : following from the nature of the one in question <his guilt is a natural deduction from the evidence>
5
: implanted or being as if implanted by nature : seemingly inborn <a natural talent for art>
6
: of or relating to nature as an object of study and research
7
: having a specified character by nature <a natural athlete>
8
a : occurring in conformity with the ordinary course of nature : not marvelous or supernatural <natural causes>
b : formulated by human reason alone rather than revelation <natural religion> <natural rights>
c : having a normal or usual character <events followed their natural course>
9
: possessing or exhibiting the higher qualities (as kindliness and affection) of human nature <a noble … brother … ever most kind and natural — Shakespeare>
10
a : growing without human care; also : not cultivated <natural prairie unbroken by the plow>
b : existing in or produced by nature : not artificial <natural turf> <natural curiosities>
c : relating to or being natural food
11
a : being in a state of nature without spiritual enlightenment : unregenerate <natural man>
b : living in or as if in a state of nature untouched by the influences of civilization and society
12
a : having a physical or real existence as contrasted with one that is spiritual, intellectual, or fictitious <a corporation is a legal but not a natural person>
b : of, relating to, or operating in the physical as opposed to the spiritual world <natural laws describe phenomena of the physical universe>
13
a : closely resembling an original : true to nature
b : marked by easy simplicity and freedom from artificiality, affectation, or constraint
c : having a form or appearance found in nature
14
a : having neither flats nor sharps <the natural scale of C major>
b : being neither sharp nor flat
c : having the pitch modified by the natural sign
15
: of an off-white or beige color
"1.: based on an inherent sense of right and wrong <natural justice>
2
a : being in accordance with or determined by nature
b : having or constituting a classification based on features existing in nature
3
a (1) : begotten as distinguished from adopted; also : legitimate (2) : being a relation by actual consanguinity as distinguished from adoption <natural parents>
b : illegitimate <a natural child>
4
: having an essential relation with someone or something : following from the nature of the one in question <his guilt is a natural deduction from the evidence>
5
: implanted or being as if implanted by nature : seemingly inborn <a natural talent for art>
6
: of or relating to nature as an object of study and research
7
: having a specified character by nature <a natural athlete>
8
a : occurring in conformity with the ordinary course of nature : not marvelous or supernatural <natural causes>
b : formulated by human reason alone rather than revelation <natural religion> <natural rights>
c : having a normal or usual character <events followed their natural course>
9
: possessing or exhibiting the higher qualities (as kindliness and affection) of human nature <a noble … brother … ever most kind and natural — Shakespeare>
10
a : growing without human care; also : not cultivated <natural prairie unbroken by the plow>
b : existing in or produced by nature : not artificial <natural turf> <natural curiosities>
c : relating to or being natural food
11
a : being in a state of nature without spiritual enlightenment : unregenerate <natural man>
b : living in or as if in a state of nature untouched by the influences of civilization and society
12
a : having a physical or real existence as contrasted with one that is spiritual, intellectual, or fictitious <a corporation is a legal but not a natural person>
b : of, relating to, or operating in the physical as opposed to the spiritual world <natural laws describe phenomena of the physical universe>
13
a : closely resembling an original : true to nature
b : marked by easy simplicity and freedom from artificiality, affectation, or constraint
c : having a form or appearance found in nature
14
a : having neither flats nor sharps <the natural scale of C major>
b : being neither sharp nor flat
c : having the pitch modified by the natural sign
15
: of an off-white or beige color
AlexPolikowsky1: oops that was big!
Sandra Dodd: Too much.
Sandra Dodd: #9 contradicts #11a.
Virginia W: People use "artifical" as a slur, but the root is "artifact". It just means people made it.
Sandra Dodd: I've read that "artificial" originally was a huge compliment, and meant "lifelike."
AlexPolikowsky1: Yes it sure does!
Virginia W: Sneering at human-made things seems like a peculiar sort of self-hatred.
Sandra Dodd: When they were making mechanical birds that could make bird noises (like in the Hans Christian Andersen story "The Nightingale") the best ones were called "artifical birds"—not meaning so much that they weren't real, but that they were AWESOME.
Misa: Well, that seems like something society would like us to do, Virginia. Hate ourselves.
Virginia W: And doubt ourselves.
Russ: Is artificial related to "artifice"?
Virginia W: I believe so, and "artisan"
Sandra Dodd: Keith and I went to a Christmas singing party Friday night, and because of a variety of factors, hardly anyone showed up. One was someone I've known for 35 years, since she was young and sweet, and now she's older and cranky. Never married, childless, still hyper and busy, but doesn't want to sing about Jesus. She and Keith had retrofitted "The Holly and the Ivy" so that it wasn't religious anymore, but was about rocks and trees and sun and moon.
Sandra Dodd: I was slightly irritated, but figured the next song would be better.
Misa: Funny, then, that artisan is so revered and artificial is often disliked/hated.
AlexPolikowsky1
Now Unschooling:
When I first started reading about unschooling I had the impression that all unschoolers were people that only liked "natural" things as in No processed foods, cloth diapering, "natural" toys ( wood and cloth), no TV.
That was kind of weird for me because I never had an issue with TV and toys that are plastic or electronic, no vaccines, no doctors ( only naturopaths and such)
But there is a HUGE group of people that are "unschoolers" that is exactly what they want for their kids and shun anything they thing is "unnatural"
That was kind of weird for me because I never had an issue with TV and toys that are plastic or electronic, no vaccines, no doctors ( only naturopaths and such)
But there is a HUGE group of people that are "unschoolers" that is exactly what they want for their kids and shun anything they thing is "unnatural"
Sandra Dodd: Anyway, I was trying not to goad her, but she was being so... goadable. She could turn anything into a complaint about people in the world, and I was letting it go, letting it go. Something came up about the end of the human race, and I said I didn't care, we shouldn't be so defensive as cockroaches running. She said she wouldn't mind, but we would take other species with us, and that's what bothered her.
She could turn anything into a complaint about people in the world, and I was letting it go, letting it go. Something came up about the end of the human race, and I said I didn't care, we shouldn't be so defensive as cockroaches running. She said she wouldn't mind, but we would take other species with us, and that's what bothered her.
Sandra Dodd
So I'm sitting there thinking....
If humans are all gone, which species will be self-conscious enough to think "I'm one of the few remaining," or which would catalog the others. Which would refrain from eating another species to extinction?
If humans are all gone, which species will be self-conscious enough to think "I'm one of the few remaining," or which would catalog the others. Which would refrain from eating another species to extinction?
Sandra Dodd: I didn't say that.
Virginia W: Alex, it's the attachment parenting, Mothering magazine package deal.
Sandra Dodd: I said "If no one's left to make the National Geographic Specials, who cares?"
Robin B.: Yes, Alex. I part of a group of such people, once upon a time. Scared of anything "unnatural."
Sandra Dodd: And she looked at me like I was a gorilla stabber. I let it go.
Sandra Dodd: Someone asked about the time difference between us and India, where Holly is.
Misa: Sandra, The Great Gorilla Stabber.
Sandra Dodd: I said 11.5 hours. The whole country is on one time zone.
Robin B.: It feels like a rite of passage, now. I went through that Mothering mag thing until I saw the light of radical unschooling.
Sandra Dodd: Trivia, but true.
Robin B.: One time zone - I didn't know that.
AlexPolikowsky1: Neither did I
Sandra Dodd: But India's fairly vertical, mapwise. So it's not a big deal. They compromised at the half hour to make it more sensible.
Robin B.: I like trivia.
Misa: Actually, I am not a fan of the whole time zone thing. But I get why people do it.
Marta Pires: I went through that too, Robin.
Sandra Dodd: So I mentioned that China, too, is all one time zone, but China is like five or six timezones wide.
Robin B.: Like Newfoundland. On the half hour.
Virginia W: I looked askance at the Mothering magazine package deal initially because I was already sure games were good, and already hated the term "screen time".
AlexPolikowsky1: And yes Virginia. Those people all parent out of fear of the unnatural Because the unnatural is always toxic and bad for you. But natural is always good.
Sandra Dodd: I would rather have been singing about Christmas, but this aversion to Jesus, at a Christmas singing party, was a downer. It was *unnatural.*
Marta Pires: Luckily I found radical unschooling shortly after.
Sandra Dodd: So my friend (who really is fun, and sweet, but stridently opposed to things before she thinks) said something really funny.
Sandra Dodd: She was objecting to people messing with time zones, and to daylight savings time. And she said, of time, "Like we INVENTed it," very derisively. As though I had suggested I had invented gorillas.
Sandra Dodd: I said "We DID build the clocks..."
Virginia W: We did invent time!
Sandra Dodd: But of course I THOUGHT a hell of a lot more than that, like "What the hell are you THINKING!?" but in honor of Jesus' musical birthday party, I didn't say that.
Robin B.: We invented the measuring of it!
Sandra Dodd: She said something like, "Oh, yeah..."
Sandra Dodd: We invented IT. We named it.
Sandra Dodd: And that brings me to what "natural" is.
Sandra Dodd: We invented it.
Sandra Dodd: Would it exist if we didn't?
Virginia W: Inventing things is natural for humans.
Marta Pires:
Robin B.: People are natural. What they do is natural, then.
Sandra Dodd: There y'go.
Sandra Dodd: I meant for that to apply to Virginia's statement, but yours can have it too, Robin.
Sandra Dodd: It's a matter of degree. Turns out Chimps use tools.
Virginia W:
Virginia W: And crows
Serah: what about cloning? or gmo's
Sandra Dodd: And birds, in a way, who take something up high and drop it to open it.
Sandra Dodd: Well that's the problem, Serah.
Virginia W: Humans have been gentically altering plants and animals for thousands of years
Sandra Dodd: People have grafted trees for a LONG time, and that's not "a natural tree."
Virginia W: Only the methods have changed
Sandra Dodd: We had a plum tree with a peach branch grafted on, when I was a kid. It made one fruit each year, and we gave it to the family whose grandfather had done the grafting.
Virginia W: Nature makes clones. Like twins. Some creatures only reproduce through cloning.
Sandra Dodd: I think it's something people go ape-shit about without thinking very clearly about what they mean by "unnatural."
Sandra Dodd: Is cotton cloth LOTS more natural than silk? What about rayon, nylon, polyester?
Misa: Sponges (the animal) are all basically clones.
Robin B.: Fear. Going ape-shit is the 21st century version of making the sign of the horns against evil.
Sandra Dodd: Is it not exploitation to enslave silk worms?
Robin B.: So some people say, Sandra.
Sandra Dodd: But if we pull too much oil out from the ground, won't the surface fall in?
Sandra Dodd: Ants enslave aphids sometimes.
Sandra Dodd: Alex has enslaved cows.
Robin B.: Some wasps lay their eggs in caterpillars and the babies eat their way out.
Sandra Dodd: But there ARE no "natural cows" in north America or Europe.
AlexPolikowsky1
GMO is very misunderstood by the majority of people. It is not evil like people think. If anyone needs to read about GMO this site is based on scientific data out there and not fearmongering psedo science:
http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/
http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/
AlexPolikowsky1: Yep Dairy cows are domesticated and bred for producing milk. Not natural some say
Robin B.: There aren't any "natural dogs" either.
Sandra Dodd: The things David Waynforth looks at in studying human behavior (and reading other people's studies, too) is what is natural, in things like mate selection.
Sandra Dodd: Coyotes aren't?
Robin B.: Not domesticated ones, I mean,
Sandra Dodd: I guess if they were dogs they wouldn't call them coyotes. Never mind.
Sandra Dodd: Rats.
Sandra Dodd: There aren't natural wild rats.
Virginia W joined the chat 13 days ago
AlexPolikowsky1
Norway wild rats!
http://www.ratbehavior.org/WildRats.htm
http://www.ratbehavior.org/WildRats.htm
Sandra Dodd: They've lived with people since at least the Egyptians, and on ships since there were ships (rats that we have)
AlexPolikowsky1: Yes they did travel with people !
Sandra Dodd: We have some wild rodents here. Kangaroo rats (which are small like mice).
Sandra Dodd: They eat people food.
Sandra Dodd: The natural rat diet is people food.
Sandra Dodd: (Not kangaroo rats, but rat-rats.)
Sandra Dodd: I like all the connections made, and all the ideas unravelled when looking at "natural."
Sandra Dodd: Religion is natural. All groups have it.
Sandra Dodd: Language is natural.
Sandra Dodd: Except Esperanto and Klingon and Elvish, I guess.
Jaclyn Koehl joined the chat 13 days ago
Virginia W: there's a short on the DVD for ratatouille that is a big love letter to rats
Sandra Dodd: Knives are natural.
Russ: Do animals have religion?
Sandra Dodd: Everybody picked up a sharp rock, and hoped for a longer, sharper one.
Sandra Dodd: We don't know yet, Russ, do we?
Sandra Dodd: Dophins and whales might have some theories about boats and people and airplanes, if they can communicate about those kinds of ideas.
Russ: Unknowable - for now..
AlexPolikowsky1: People seem to value Natural over what they perceived as unnatural or man made. They shun it . Those people have a hard time letting their kids have choices about what to eat and what to do
Sandra Dodd: Maybe at least superstition, which is a sort of relious behavior without necessarily having a fill back story.
Sandra Dodd: Control is probably natural.
AlexPolikowsky1: Hangul ( written Korean) was created by appointment in the Joseon Era by two schoolars assigned by the KIng at that time. They used to borrow Chinese Characters before that.
Sandra Dodd: The instinct to control children and irritating people. It's adaptive.
Sandra Dodd: So they have a natural spoken language and a contrived/designed written language in Korea?
AlexPolikowsky1: Yes
Sandra Dodd: American Indian languages were written down so the Bible could be translated, pretty much, as far as I know.
AlexPolikowsky1: exactly Sandra. It is a very phonetic alphabet ( and pretty easy)
Sandra Dodd: Korea probably wanted to start writing those soap operas.
AlexPolikowsky1: It has only been used in the last 200 and so years
Robin B.: Hawaiian, as well, Sandra. It was missionaries who crafted the Hawaiian alphabet.
AlexPolikowsky1: KDramas FTW!
Sandra Dodd: FULL back story: "Maybe at least superstition, which is a sort of relious behavior without necessarily having a full back story."
Sandra Dodd: Joyce has been objecting to the phrase "natural learning" and I'm not sure why. She probably has a good reason.
Virginia W: I read that Japanese has two written forms, one phonetic and one character based (also based on Chinese)
Sandra Dodd: But compared to school, curriculum, grade-level, reading level, recitation, test, I think that exploring the world and making one's own connections is a natural way to learn.
Virginia W: The character form is falling into disuse
Sandra Dodd: Computers, probably.
Sandra Dodd: Too hard to text.
Virginia W: Yes.
Robin B.: Maybe she was seeing a propensity for people to use "natural" learning as one without certain "advancements" like computers.
Robin B.: Joyce, I mean.
Sandra Dodd: Jihong can use a chinese computer. They'e a little like the menus where you can hold a vowel down and it gives you options (on a Mac, at least) of diacritical markings on it. There are groups of characters and I think they're chosen from menus.
AlexPolikowsky1: I agree Robin!
Sandra Dodd: Oh. Like what!?
Sandra Dodd: Seriously.
Sandra Dodd: What would natural learning without a computer be? Spin up an example.
Virginia W: "Natural" is an overloaded word. Like "freedom". It means a lot of different things. It requires unpacking each time.
Robin B.: I have no idea, Sandra. But someone is likely to come up with a reason not to use them.
But someone is likely to come up with a reason not to use them.
Robin B.: I'm writing an article for Pam's HSC magazine on creativity. I went at it from a gaming angle.
AlexPolikowsky1
I have a group of locals that do not let their kids use a computer ( while they do), The kids are only allowed books and some toys ( not a lot either).
They value nature walks and crafts and such. No eletronics.
They value nature walks and crafts and such. No eletronics.
Robin B.: That's what I was thinking, Alex.
AlexPolikowsky1: So that is their take on it. Oh and NO TV. Some will let the kids watch a movie on DVD here and there but it is very very limited. Commercials/ads are evil and will brainwash your children.
AlexPolikowsky1: They are unschoolers.
AlexPolikowsky1: Some are not unschoolers.
Sandra Dodd: I would like to inspect their crafts supplies and book shelves.
AlexPolikowsky1: Then they want their kids to learn keyboarding and get them classes on it. But they cannot really use the computer.
Marta Pires: Ha! (Sandra)
Russ: Thanks all for the food for thought - I have to run but I will be back. Are you meeting to chat Xmas Eve day, and New Years Eve?
Sandra Dodd: I doubt they are using all local natural craft supplies. And I wonder if their nature walks involve field guides with color photos.
Sandra Dodd: I hadn't thought about it yet, Russ.
Sandra Dodd: I could.
Sandra Dodd: Probably will.
Sandra Dodd: I'm going to be home both days, and some people aren't Christmassy, like my friend Jean.
Robin B.: Yay!
Sandra Dodd: NATURAL food for thought?
Sandra Dodd: Should we talk about natural food?
AlexPolikowsky1: HA!]
Russ: I will check in next week then!
Marta Pires: Yes!
Robin B.: We can play Christmas carols while we chat!
AlexPolikowsky1: That seems to be a big one doesn't it.
Russ: Ha, yes!
Sandra Dodd: Bye, Russ. See you in May, perhaps.
AlexPolikowsky1: Natural foods.
Marta Pires: Indeed, Alex.
Russ: What's in May?
Sandra Dodd: Serah's event that's not yet planned fully.
Sandra Dodd: In brampton or Toronto.
Virginia W: On food packaging, the word "natural" means nothing.
Marta Pires: Just this week a mom wrote me on the side about this topic.
Sandra Dodd: Depends what's in there, don't you think?
Russ: Ok awesome, everyone have a great week!
Robin B.: Bye, Russ.
Sandra Dodd: Marta, wrote trying to convert you, or complaining or what?
Sandra Dodd: I have friends I like who are (or were) total "health food" fanatics and were spending crazy amounts of money for stuff from the deli counter at Whole Foods. Ugly stuff, too.
Marta Pires: Asking me my thoughts on the Weston Price research...
Sandra Dodd: Hardly anything at "Whole Foods" was whole, outside of the fruits and vegetables.
AlexPolikowsky1: I have seen that Sandra. Families with a very small busget only buying on those super expensive places afraid to buy any conventional food.
Robin B.: Sandra, have you read the article from Huffington Post about Whole Foods?
Marta Pires: I've tried to tell her my thoughts on the subject, but she seems to be stuck in fear.
Robin B.: It's a humor piece. I snorted.
AlexPolikowsky1: It is all about making people afraid and fearful.
Sandra Dodd: No, Robin. If you want to enter a link into the record here, it will be in the transcript.
Robin B.: Here it is! http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelly-macl...
Sandra Dodd: People seem to be afraid to buy just plain rice or flour, even.
AlexPolikowsky1: One word: Orthorexia !
Robin B.: I love how Hawaiians eat anything with gusto. If it tastes good, eat it!
AlexPolikowsky1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthorexia_...
Marta Pires: I told her that I had already read some about Weston Price, but that when I found radical unschooling, I consciously decided to put that stuff away and look directly at Conchinha.
Robin B.: But they like tripe stew for breakfast. I haven't been able to do that, yet.
Sandra Dodd: And it is acting like a religion. LOTS of people are saying they are "nutritionists" and it's like holding up a cross and saying "BACK, blasphemers, say no more!"
Virginia W: Yes, Alex! My father is afflicted.
Robin B.: Horns against evil!
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Robin B.: Frank!!
Marta Pires: I also told her that, from what I've read, information on food tends to change, so what Weston Price says might not be considered the *truth* in a few years.
Capn Franko: Yawn! Hi, folks.
Marta Pires: She just continued to "but" me.
Sandra Dodd: There must be some sort of short-cut nutriion courses or mail-order ministries, because half the people who come to the discussion nowadays afraid of food will say "Because I'm a nutritionist..." and expect us all to fall back and let them sermonize and demonize.
Robin B.: Right.
Marta Pires: Yes, Sandra.
Marta Pires: This mom seemed to think that she had read something nobody had read before. :/
Capn Franko: Oh, food discussions. Those get crazy.
Robin B.: I love to hear about what you're making at your house, Frank.
Sandra Dodd: The topic is the idea of what (in the world, not just food) is or is not "natural," Frank.
Capn Franko: Sandra, thanks fo r the photo. Still looks like that. (grin)
Sandra Dodd: Or looks like that again? 
Capn Franko: No, Still. Always did. in teh French Wuarter. Probably will until the city sinks.
AlexPolikowsky1
For Weston A. Price
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Weston_A._P...
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Weston_A._P...
Sandra Dodd: (Shorpy had a photo of 1880 New Orleans this morning, just one street scene with little kids. French Quarter. I thought might be Frank's great grandparents.)
Marta Pires: Thanks Alex.
Sandra Dodd: "Natural" human housing is another interesting idea.
Capn Franko: *grin* The little kids might'vebbeen my grandparents.
Marta Pires: I recommended that she read the discussion on food that is currently going on (on Radical Unschooling Info)
Robin B.: About Weston Price on that page: "He is practically the patron saint of crank dentistry." Ha!
Virginia W: There was this rat study a few years ago that purported to show that rats gained more weight eating high fructose corn syrup than eating cane sugar.
Sandra Dodd: Birds make all kinds of nests. People make all kinds of houses. Some seem natural. Sticks and mud, in Africa. Leaf-covered shades in the Amazon.
Robin B.: What is natural human housing? Twigs and leaves?
Sandra Dodd: Poles and buffalo hide? Bark longhouses? Hogans made of logs?
Robin B.: Let's live in those!!
Capn Franko: MacMansions.
Sandra Dodd: English and Scandinavian post and beam construction.
Robin B.: Alas, no buffalo.
Sandra Dodd: Wattle and daub.
Robin B.: Pili grass huts.
Virginia W: Caves!
Virginia W:
Sandra Dodd: All that can be done without nails. Maybe the use of nails is the first.... nail in the coffin of natural housing of humans.
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Marta Pires: Frank, I liked your post about this matter on facebook, but I confess that I teared up a bit when I read what Roya Dedeaux wrote...
Capn Franko: Roya is a good writer.
Sandra Dodd: I'm thinking of going natural next time I have a life-threatening wound or illness.
Marta Pires: I had no idea she had been through so much...
Capn Franko: Yeah.
Virginia W: What thread Frank, Marta?
Marta Pires: Not a thread, Virginia.
Marta Pires: Just a funny comment on "natural".
AlexPolikowsky1: Here Virginia
AlexPolikowsky1: http://sweetsurprise.com/princeton-study...
Robin B.: Yes, if we didn't have unnatural catheters to the lungs to bust blood clots, Ross would be dead.
Robin B.: And clot-busting drugs.
AlexPolikowsky1: NO WAY Sandra!
Sandra Dodd: Frank's comment (which might be visible to some or all, don't know): https://www.facebook.com/CapnFranko/post...
Virginia W: What I thought was interesting about that study, Alex, was that the rats that had 24-hour access to sweetened water gained less weight than rats who had access to sweetened water 12 hours per day.
Capn Franko: I was just being my typical snarky self.Roya wrote a meaningful post.
Virginia W: The rats who were limited binged on the sweet taste.
Sandra Dodd: We leave food down for our pets all the time.
Sandra Dodd: If it's gone, we put more down.
AlexPolikowsky1: Read the other link!
AlexPolikowsky1: That is a good observation Virginia!
AlexPolikowsky1: We do the same for our pets
Sandra Dodd: We have friends whose dogs or cats will kill to get of the limited food. They will bring blood, on the other animals, and have to be fed separately, and they'll eat in four or five giant bites, and beg for the next 23.5 hours.
Sandra Dodd: It bugs the hell out of me, to be around those animals anymore. I just want to FEED them. And they WOULD overeat, and they WOULD get sick, and the owners would see it as proof that they were right and I was wrong.
Robin B.: Gotta go, folks. See you next week!...singing "Deck the halls with boughs of holly...."
Robin B. left the chat 13 days ago
Capn Franko: My posts are usually universally visible. I had been limitng them until the grils got accepted to UNiversity of Washington. We were *miniminzing* our unscholishness so as not to freak ou the acceptance committe if they chose to investigate us. Done now so I;m back to being public.
Marta Pires: Poor animals... 
Capn Franko: Bye, Robin.
Virginia W: I don't think we're FB friends, Frank, I just see you in groups.
Capn Franko: We could be friends. I'm not at all restrictive, just opinionated so lotsa people drop or block me.
Sandra Dodd: When health proponents and jogging coaches said, in the 1990s, that people should drink a gallon of water a day (or whatever it was they said), people got ALL excited about that, and started drinking water all the time. And the claim that went with it was that only water "counted," no other beverages.
AlexPolikowsky1: Send him a friend request!~
Sandra Dodd: it didn't make sense, but it didn't keep other people from repeating it and claiming it as sensible "fact."
Marta Pires: And from trying to do it.
Capn Franko: And you can die from too much water.
AlexPolikowsky1: Sandra there are people making lots of money of selling "natural" and fear of unnatural to people out there. It is all bout money
Marta Pires: I remember carrying a bottle of water around to read a lot of water during the day. I would feel sick when I drank water on purpose, without being thirsty. I was in my 20's.
Virginia W: When I was in basic training in 1995, our fluid intake was monitored, and nobody could leave the cafeteria without drinking 3 8oz glasses of water or sports drink
Sandra Dodd: Time passed, "researchers" "DISCOVERED" that other beverages also hydrated people! Well DUH!! Seriously!? They couldn't just think about tea and apple juice and KNOW that? They never spent hours in the sun and then drank a 7-Up!?
Sandra Dodd: And now people are looking at the problems with too much water. Messes up digestion. Messes up processes in the blood. Messes up kidneys.
Marta Pires: to *drink* (not to read)
Virginia W: Much was made of the "dehydrating" effects of caffeinated beverages.
Sandra Dodd: Virginia, were they giving you salt tablets too, or was that earlier?
Virginia W: Turns out the caffeine doesn't begin to outweigh the water content of those drinks.
Capn Franko: Yeah, I knew folks who said taht'd you pee out more liquid thanj you took in if you drank somethign with caffeine.
Sandra Dodd: Crazy.
Sandra Dodd: It's like saying the sun isn't shining when people can just turn and SEE IT, right there, shining.
Capn Franko: I almost never dinrk water and I'm still here.
AlexPolikowsky1: You get water from food too.
Virginia W: No, the food was lightly seasoned. Anti salt bias in full swing.
Sandra Dodd: This is mean, not a nice thing, but Pam Sorooshian said it once and one of her kids fell for it.
Sandra Dodd: "The word gullible isn't even in the dictionary!" Pam said.
Virginia W: Turns out, getting too little salt is quite dangerous.
Sandra Dodd: Holly said a more recent version she's heard is "If you pronounce 'gullible' very slowly, it sounds like 'orange.'"
Capn Franko: Mean... but funny.
AlexPolikowsky1: Unfortunately there is a huge number of people making money out of selling snake's ( natural) oil to caring loving parents and people who believe their pseudo science spiel.
Sandra Dodd: Yes. A teenager rushed to the dictionary, looked it up and told her mom she was WRONG. And then... slowly it dawned....
And then... slowly it dawned....
Capn Franko: *snicker*
Sandra Dodd: But I'm shocked at the world-wide level of gullibility and acceptance of things that are harmful or nonsensical. The inability to think clearly, or to ask the right questions.
Capn Franko: There's a sucker born every minute; and two to take him. Truer words were never poken
AlexPolikowsky1: going back to what Sandra said somewhere above it is like the church of natural followers. It is almost a religion. You are only a good parent if you follow the "natural " way.
Sandra Dodd: I like the natural snake oil, clearly made of organic snakes.
SaraVaz:
Sandra Dodd: And that's part of why I think religion is natural.
AlexPolikowsky1: non GMO right?
AlexPolikowsky1: Gluten free?
Capn Franko: I've seen threads about essential oils preventing Ebola. Some of those people are just nuts.
Sandra Dodd: If people decide not to be Jewish anymore, they become Buddhists, but kind of competitive, perfectionist Buddhists.
AlexPolikowsky1: and homeopathy!
AlexPolikowsky1: You know sugar water.
Sandra Dodd: Some Christians who decide to leave the church and become atheists, take all that judgmental right-and-wrong angel-and-demon energy down to worship at the health food stores. Others just make a religion of the atheism.
AlexPolikowsky1: ( because water has memory and microwave water is Hittler) Frank like the guy that came up with that!
Sandra Dodd: Microwaves used to be stroner than necessary and could work without the door latching. Not saying that technology isn't improved.
Capn Franko: Emoto. The Japanese water quack.
Capn Franko: Masaru Emoto
Sandra Dodd: But someone who posted something irritating the other day on radical unschooling info, I clicked her name to see if she even had kids. Didn't know, but she had an anti-microwave piece of art that said something like thanks, microwave oven, for the hot bowl full of cold food."
AlexPolikowsky1: So many quacks around!
Sandra Dodd: That's a failure to understand what "microwave safe" means, or to learn or figure out how a microwave works, enough to know which of your own dishes are NOT good for the microwave.
AlexPolikowsky1: I saw that Sandra! I guess she NEVER had a microwave to know1
Sandra Dodd: If the bowl is hot, the user doesn't know how to use the microwave.
Sandra Dodd: I didn't know microwave water was Hitler.
Capn Franko: Now you do! (wink)
Capn Franko: Not just water but food - rice, at least. If you say nice things to rice in a jar vs. saying bad things to another jar of rice, the "nice" rice lasts longer. ---NOT!
Sandra Dodd: Humor site reference is all I found. I guess I just went and looked up "gullible." So it goes.
AlexPolikowsky1: yeah! When I "killed" my microwave I had people posting that I was better off without it.
AlexPolikowsky1: I am not
AlexPolikowsky1: I just got a brand new one for $35 due to a hotel remodeling in town! WooHOO!!!!
AlexPolikowsky1: So much easier! Bring the Hittler water and the fast baked potatoes for my husband!
Capn Franko: Live is much better since the invention of the microwave.
Marta Pires: Cool Alex!
Sandra Dodd: It's fun to see what the theories were about technologies now normal and standard. If cars went over 35 mph, the passengers would die, was one claim, back in the day. And the edge of the world, for trans-Atlantic exploration, was believed by lots of people for a long time.
AlexPolikowsky1: We had one of the first microwaves in Brazil. My dad was the photographer for the company and the ads so we got to keep it! It was so cool!!!
Sandra Dodd: Nice
Misa: Remember when people said it was not natural to talk to strangers the whole world over on the internet? That was a big thing for a while. (Even now, they can't be "real friends.")
AlexPolikowsky1: Wasn't travelling in a train bad for women uterus or something like that?
AlexPolikowsky1: Misa beware of strangers in the internet!!!
AlexPolikowsky1: I married one!
Sandra Dodd: Might be, Alex.
Sandra Dodd: Misa, that's true.
Virginia W: Homeopathy was invented at a time when the prevailing model of medical care was so bad that literally doing nothing could have better outcomes. And people didn't know about atoms yet. And homeopaths washed their hands while doctors didn't.
AlexPolikowsky1: and I have tons of strange friends I love I met online. Some already IRL some not YET!
Capn Franko: Speed of sound in my lifetime.
Sandra Dodd: So Smithsonian Magazine, I saw by their e-mail, has an article about other planets that might be better suited for us. I only saw it yesterday, so couldn't ask my friend Jean, "Based on what we know of national colonization here, invasion and the extinction of certain plants and animals, how moral is it for humans to consider colonizing another planet?
AlexPolikowsky1: Virginia Homeopathy is water. Water has no memory. It is placebo effect. Even placebo works sometimes.
Sandra Dodd: How much would the oils on our hands, or our diseases, or our piss, likely destroy on some planet with which we werne't familiar? WHO KNOWS?
Sandra Dodd: There's nobody here I would've known without the internet.
Capn Franko: My sci-fi take on planetary colonization: Much easier to reenginner our ow biology than "terraform" aplanet. However, wait for the moral objectsion to monkeying with the human form.
AlexPolikowsky1: I am closer to many of my online friends than the people here in town.
Virginia W: I know Alex, I don't understand how people can convince themselves homeopathy works.
Sandra Dodd: Three minutes left of our appointed time.
Capn Franko: For decades I had one friend, until we hooked up with unschoolers. Y'all are my *good* friends.
Marta Pires: My mom still finds it strange when she asks where I met someone and I say online.
Sandra Dodd: Did we cover all we need to cover? Sometimes there are things like "certified organic hemp fiber shirts" that seem to be going a bit far for me.
Sandra Dodd: And Keith's Toyota Prius, as happy as the hippies are with it, has nothing natural about it, except the seats have some leather panels (not every bit of the seat cover is leather).
Sandra Dodd: I don't think batteries that can be recharged are "natural," though isn't there a susptected battery in some Egyptian or Babylonian ruin somewhere? (Or maybe if I say that really slowly it will sound like "orange..." I didn't see it.)
Marta Pires: 
Capn Franko: The antikythera mecahnism maybe?
Sandra Dodd: I doubt that's certified organically-tanned leather, with real urine and ashes, so the leather's prob'ly unnatural, too.
Sandra Dodd: I don't know, Frank. You're probably making that up just to see if I'll google it. I'm going to need to recover from this chat.
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Capn Franko: No, the Parthian Battery! That's it.
Sandra Dodd: I'm not lookin' that up, either.
Capn Franko: The antikythera mechanism is a(n analog) computer for Classical Greece.
Sandra Dodd: (well... maybe later...)
Sandra Dodd: Is that the brass lump they found in a shipwreck in the past while?
Marta Pires: Great chat, Sandra. Going to go make some lasagna for dinner. Natural lasagna! Hahahaha
Sandra Dodd: And discovered it to be a slide rule cash register and Swiss army knife?
Capn Franko: The antikytheria - yes. The Parthian Battery was dug up somewhere in Mesopotamia. I'm fuzzy on the details.
Sandra Dodd
Tomatoes used to be considered poison, Marta. FACT.
Have you see the "Kid Snippets" episode with "FACT" in it?
AlexPolikowsky1: Marta is it Organic, GMO and Gluten free? then it is not natural ! HA
Marta Pires: Hahahaha
Capn Franko: I jsut drank some microwaved Ovaltine for my wakeup liquid. Just mkilk - no water.
AlexPolikowsky1: The Kid Snippets is really really funny!
Marta Pires: Not organic, not GMO free nor Gluten free. And it has a lot of tomato in it. There. So unnatural.
Capn Franko: Tomatoes are related to belladonna. They are poison (I don;t eat
Sandra Dodd
Marta Pires: No, I don't think I've seen that one, Sandra!
Capn Franko joined the chat 13 days ago
Sandra Dodd
Laters. Or listen while you prep lasagne.
Holly and I quote those things to each other all the time.
Holly and I quote those things to each other all the time.
Sandra Dodd: FACT.
Marta Pires: Checking it out now.
Sandra Dodd: Thanks for being here.
Capn Franko: Ah, time to get going. See y'all later.
AlexPolikowsky1: FACT! lol
Sandra Dodd: Next week, chat without a topic, probably. Chit-chat Christmas chat, or humor, or personal stories
Sandra Dodd: Bye!
