March 24 chat, social situations
Thursday, March 24
Maintaining attachment as kids get older, and helping them nagivate social situations.
Maintaining attachment as kids get older, and helping them nagivate social situations.
Marta Venturini: Hi there ladies! :)
Serah: Hi Marta!
Serah: Arif was showing me pics of the pastry shop in Belem and the line ups!
Serah: popular place
Marta Venturini: Not to worry, you don't wait too long. They move fast. :D
Marta Venturini: Those pastries are THAT awesome!
Serah: looks like! Cant wait to try them :-)
Marta Venturini: I'm so excited that you're coming!
Marta Venturini: Do you have your flights booked already?
Serah: me too!
Serah: yes! coming in straight from toronto to Lisbon. still need to book the lisbon to london part
Marta Venturini: Arriving on September 7th in Lisbon?
Serah: um... not sure.... need to check that
Parvine joined the chat
Virginia W joined the chat
Parvine: hi! we are missing the Venturini family in the Algarve!
Marta Venturini: And we are already missing you too!!! :*
Sandra Dodd joined the chat
Sandra Dodd: Lisbon? Not London? Or London too?
Serah: london too!!
Marta Venturini: :)
Marta Venturini: We're so lucky!
Parvine: Serah those pastries in Lisbon ARE super awesome ! Enjoy!!!
Sandra Dodd: Don't touch her husband like I forgot-and-did. Don't kissy-face her boys.
Serah: will be in Lisbon from Sept 6th
Jill Parmer joined the chat
Marta Venturini: Off to put that date on my calendar. :)
Serah: kisy -face! lol
Marta Venturini: Jill, when are you coming to Lisbon with Addi?? :D
Sandra Dodd: Those Europeans grab and kissy-face EVERYdamnbody
Sandra Dodd: It's scary.
Serah: aw, that's just how they show love!!
Jill Parmer: When Herbie lets me! ;-)
Marta Venturini: Hehehehe
Marta Venturini: And they HUG!!!
Parvine: Yes!! Kisses and hugs all over the place in Portugal :)
Serah: we have standard muslim rules... girls touch girls. boys touch boys (not to be misconstrued)
Sandra Dodd: I guess Bruno can hug them.
Marta Venturini: :)
Marta Venturini: Ok, then I'll get the all the hugs and kisses out of my system with Serah and her little munchkin. :P
Serah: perfect!!
Sandra Dodd: I told Keith if he dies I'm becoming Nomadic.
Sandra Dodd: Six months in England, here and there otherwise, and back to England.
Sandra Dodd: It's just dreamy. I'll probably be too old to do it, or Keith will outlive me.
Sukayna joined the chat
Parvine: talking of social situations, my girls are very much expected to want to kiss ( and hug relatives ) as part of culture but not comfortable with it at all.
Marta Venturini: I'm glad I didn't try to hug and kiss them, then! :)
Sukayna: we have that, too Parvine
Sukayna: and over here, like the rest of the mediterranean i suppose is all hugs and kisses all the time!
Marta Venturini: Conchinha prefers to high-five people or wave too.
Sukayna: sometimes the girls get away with simply shaking hands
Parvine: Same here
Sukayna: they understand the cultural expectation but feel like they need more personal space
Sukayna: politely
Sandra Dodd: Maybe for family gatherings you could write to people or e-mail them in advance and say "She's not liking physical contact much, so don't be surprised."
AlexP joined the chat
Sandra Dodd: It's fun to see studies of comparisons of expected cultural space and contact.
Sukayna: I am super white american girl, I love my personal space :)
Sandra Dodd: I'm NOT a very touch, huggy person, and still I failed to not touch Arif for a week. Once, light, but still. I failed.
Sukayna: In college my friend from Brazil used to practically sit in my lap though, so I learned about cultural norms (the idea of space differing) from her
Jill Parmer: And every time I see Sandra, I can't help but give her a big hug!
Sandra Dodd: :-)
Sukayna: if you are not used to it, it is hard Sandra.'
AlexP: I am brazilian. If I like you I will hug you and I touch. I am better now because I live in Minnesota and people barely say a loud Hi here!
Sukayna: In the stores, everywhere here, it is that way. they even hand you your change specially so you dont touch
Sandra Dodd: I never relax into that cheek-kissing that goes on in France and the Netherlands.
Marta Venturini: Where are you, Sukayna?
Sukayna: Lebanon :)
Marta Venturini: Is there more cheek-kissing in the Netherlands than here??
Sandra Dodd: So this chat will be interesting as there are people in very different places and circumstances.
Parvine: Lots of kissing in the Middle East and Iran :)
Sandra Dodd: Too much kissing of totally strangers.
AlexP: I told Sandra that I was going to hug her the day I met her!! I could not help it! It was like seeing an old friend you like! She has a beautiful sweet smile so that make it even more welcoming. You should make a mean face Sandra so people stay away
Serah: I prefer 'real' hugs to people I like and am happy to see, I dont like the culturally expected 'fake' hugs that we are expected to give to certain relatives and aquaintences
Marta Venturini: :)
CelesteB joined the chat
Sandra Dodd: I don't now, Marta. I blank out and can't count where is going to be twice and where's going to three times. I just want it to be over because I know I'm not doing whatever normal locals would do.
Marta Venturini: I couldn't help it either, Alex, when I met Sandra at the airport!!! :D
AlexP: I only like hugs from people I like. Some I want distance thank you very much!
Marta Venturini: Hehehehehe
Sandra Dodd: I need to practice mean faces. But it would probably make me laugh. :-)
AlexP: It would make me laugh!
Sukayna: I would *like* to hug Sandra, meanie or not
Amber: I'm part Cuban, and live near lots of Cubans and other latins. It's common to cheek-kiss when you know someone, or are meeting them. I had a nanny at the park start biting my head off because I blocked her young charge from walking up and kissing my daughter - he wanted to see the truck we brought, and instead of helping him ask to see the truck, she was telling him to kiss her.
AlexP: Bri
Amber: I told Sandra that if I meet her I'll probably want to hug her :}
AlexP: Brazillians do the kissy kissy. Two kisses in Rio ( one in each cheek) and some places even three! That is way too much.
Sukayna: I am so immune to it in many ways now
AlexP: Most are air kisses .
Sukayna: three in lebanon
Serah: i always get confused about the 2 or 3 kisses thing
Sukayna: no slobber, please
Parvine: Or The look, my girls used to give The Look if someone approaches them to kiss them hello!
Sukayna: my kids call it the plunger :)
Sandra Dodd: Maybe I could learn that look from your girls, Parvine. :-)
Marta Venturini: Usually two kisses in Portugal.
Sandra Dodd: France was two. Netherlands was three. I was scared.
Marta Venturini: Conchinha had the Look too, remember Sandra?? :P
Sukayna: we just love you sooo much Sandra!
Sukayna: everyone wants to invade your personal space
Sandra Dodd: YES, Conchinha's scary. I thought she wanted me dead, right there, in front of there, THEN.
Jill Parmer: When Addi was in Spain and Portugal, she liked the cultural greetings.
Marta Venturini: Hahahahahaha
Sandra Dodd: (in front of her, I meant)
Sandra Dodd: You should all come and invade my REAL personal space. Come to my house. Don't kiss me. Leave your shoes on.
Marta Venturini: :)
Sukayna: Maybe other people are better at reading cues? the look does nothing here...
Sandra Dodd: I'll make you a nice bed.
Amber: Even though I live in an American city where kissing might seem more normal than not, I still don't initiate it. I am more of a hugger anyway. It gets complicated when you want to hug your friends and they want to kiss you.
Sandra Dodd: We can tell stories.
Marta Venturini: Hopefully someday we will!!!
Sukayna: sounds wonderful!
Sandra Dodd: So! Ten people. :-)
Marta Venturini: (visit you, that is)
Amber: And the transplants seem to do actual kisses - lips on my cheek - whereas when I do the kiss, it's more of a cheek-to-cheek touch
Sandra Dodd: Welcome. Chats are saved so don't say things you don't want preserved.
Sandra Dodd: "Maintaining attachment as kids get older, and helping them nagivate social situations."
Sandra Dodd: "NAVIGATE
Sandra Dodd: Sheesh...
Sandra Dodd: I cut and pasted a bad one a week ago and still haven't shook it loose.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe it's a useful word, though. If you want them to do something don't nag them. Nagivation is Irritation.
Sukayna: naggrivation
Sandra Dodd: Several recent discussions at Radical Unschooling Info, on facebok, have touched on the importance of maintaining communication and trust with kids.
Sandra Dodd: (Nice, Sukayna. :-)
AlexP
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Iwe5KDJYxTM cheek kissing etiquette
Sandra Dodd: That trust isn't made of saying "I want you to trust me." It's about being trustworthy.
CelesteB: I have a sitaution now with my oldest. He's 6. He rarely looks up from what he's doing to greet or say bye to my husband's grandparents. They are rarely here though, they live in another state.
Sandra Dodd: We always walked guests to the door and said goodbye. Sometimes it continued in the yard. Maybe doing it with everyone will help him see the value of it, and it's not just an irritating expectation of the grandparents, but it's something about you, him, your family, being courteous to guests.
Sukayna: we do that too, often to the car as well
AlexP: We always walk guests to the car and usually watch them leave.
Sukayna: yes
Sukayna: I think pressuring him, at six, would be unkind
CelesteB: Ah OK. I haven't tried that. Sometimes I stand next to him and say bye for him. It feels like I'm bring the greetings closer to him
AlexP: Shoes off is a cultural norm in Minnesota. Not in North Carolina or California ( two other places I lived) But Minnesota it is expected. My kids were never told to take their shoes off. It is what everyone does.
Sandra Dodd: -=-I think pressuring him, at six, would be unkind-=-
CelesteB: I try not to force him. It doesn't help that my husband and I don't get along with them very much.
Sandra Dodd: I disagree. (didn't mean to double the quote, but I think he should be persuaded, coached, enabled to be courteous to grandparents.
Sukayna: as they get older, they usually figure out what is expected
Sukayna: sometimes we talk ahead of time a bit
Sandra Dodd: They're his grandparents whether the generation in between them is friendly or loving or not.
Sandra Dodd: Oh they're great-grandparents?
Sandra Dodd: I think my original suggestion is still good. Do it with everybody, and it will become more natural.
CelesteB: No, my in-laws. They are grandparents
Sandra Dodd: I was watching a video about differences between Japanese and U.S. culture, by two American women married to Japanese men, living there.
CelesteB: We live in an apartment. Maybe I can start walking people to the elevator
Sukayna: I agree, Sandra, but sometimes it results in embarassment or frustration
Sandra Dodd: They said that in stores, when you enter you always say hello, and nice good-byes when you lives.
CelesteB: In leu of walking to the car
Sukayna: if there is not any prior understanding
Sandra Dodd: We do that sometimes here, especially if you're the only one in the shop, but people in New Mexico are talkative.
Sandra Dodd: Texas, too
Serah: we used to do that when we lived in an apartment.
Sandra Dodd: But she said the shopkeepers will follow people to the door and bow.
AlexP: I said things like: Say bye to Grandma and Grandpa! and then I did it my self. My kids would copy me. I think telling theem it is polite and that his grandparets will like it is not the same as pressuring a child and making them uncomfortable.
Sandra Dodd: And very expensive shops, or if you've bought expensive things I guess, they might walk you to the car and bow the car away.
Sandra Dodd: So I suppose someone from a culture like that would REALLY not appreciate a grandchild not looking up if they were leaving.
Sukayna: Yes Alex, I have seen people bully small kids. that is what i was saying would be unkind
Sandra Dodd: And there's a continuum from all to nothing, maybe, in any area—touch, speech, shoes. :-)
Sandra Dodd: So too far to the "nothing" end will rarely be right.
Sandra Dodd: And as children's parents, as their partners, we should help keep them in the range of what's good and right.
Sandra Dodd: not maybe at the top end. A six year old doesn't need the manners of a prince of England. A prince of England does, though.
AlexP: My son wants to spend some time in Japan with a Japanese family and going to a Japanese school We have talked about their traditions and how they are polite and many other aspects he will need to follow. He is actually more knowledgeble than me and said he will do it all.
Sandra Dodd: When older relatives press a child to talk to them or hug them, I think the mom has failed to coach the child to do enough to prevent that pressure.
Serah: alex, that is so cool!
Parvine: Celeste, when my parents moved to apartment from house they started waling everyone to the lift as they used to house door :)
Sandra Dodd: If the child is clueless or resistant, the older person might say something more direct than the child is used to, or might be sarcastic or insulting, but that would come from disappointment and embarrassment on the part of the grandparent/great-grandparent, wouldn't it?
Sandra Dodd: Some people have never had a living grandparent. Some have four or more with grands and steps.
Sandra Dodd: I think it's worth doing at least the miminum of courtesy.
AlexP: He needs to be 15 so it would not be until fall of 2017 the earliest so things can change :)
Sandra Dodd: I wasn't going to make my kids write thank-you notes, but what I did was take a photo of them using, playing with, wearing, the gift and sent that to the older relative, with a note from me saying something enthusiastic.
CelesteB: L
Sukayna: definitely, but I still think lots of parents will take away the idea that any amount of shaming or pressure is ok in social situations without working with the kids ahead of time
Sandra Dodd: Not everyone agrees with me. Some seem to want to give a child absolute veto over who he touches, talks to or looks at. As though it's a political stance, or a human right.
AlexP: that is what I try to do Sandra. Send a picture. Not always on top of it. I am not good at Thank you notes myself. Not something we do in Brazil so I did not grow up with them!
Sandra Dodd: It especially concerns me when they think it's part of unschooling.
Sandra Dodd: That unschoolers should not press their kids to do anything on earth they don't want to do.
Sukayna: but that is extreme!
Sandra Dodd: There are some things that should be done.
Sandra Dodd: [Celeste, what is this CelesteB: L ]
CelesteB: Accident, sorry
CelesteB: I'm on a phone :)
Sandra Dodd: I'll edit them out. Thanks. There were two, so I thought it was meaningful utterance (meaningful abbreviation)
Sandra Dodd: Keith's parents lived until all my children were grown, even though they were in their 40s when Keith was born.
Sandra Dodd: And we had children in our 30's.
Sandra Dodd: They lived into their 90s
AlexP: I have coached my children, in advance, to say thank you to gifts even if they don;t like them. I explained why. It is hard for little kids but as they get older it is easier.
CelesteB: When I was growing up, I wasn't close to grandparents at all. The only family I was close to were 2nd cousins, and they were abusive to me. Although that fact is not known.
CelesteB: So I'm very awkward with extended family. Especially if the other people are not ones to be very cheery and easy about it.
Sukayna: yes alex
Sandra Dodd: Cultures do change, and living hundreds or thousands of miles from relatives makes some things that used to be learned naturally, from example, more awkward.
Sandra Dodd: What other kinds of social situations do people want to discuss?
Parvine: I do agree Alex, I have found as they got older, it became far easier and explaining the reasoning helped towards that.
Virginia W: My older daughter, 11, lately has been saying that she doesn't care about having friends, and that she doesn't want to meet new people.
AlexP: My son needs time to answers questions. He just stands there quiet thiking before he can answer. It is awkward. I used to step in but that feels like I am steam rolling him so I have been letting him answer but people are umcomfrotable with a silent pause sometimes
AlexP: My son is kind of like that Virginia. He jokes about it.
CelesteB: I need to head out, thanks for the ideas. I'll try to come back if I can.
Sandra Dodd: I don't think it's unusual for kids that gage to have just one friend, or to have just occasional, situational friends.
AlexP: It does not seem to bother him and he seems content in doing his things.
Sandra Dodd: Bye, Celeste!
Marta Venturini: I had a situation recently with Conchinha, while skyping and playing minecraft with her friends. It happened more than once, actually, and it happened when she was playing with more than one friend. One of them was not having fun and ended up crying once or twice. I searched for previous discussions on Always Learning and Radical Unschooling Info and found a lot of information that really helped me.
Sandra Dodd: After puberty, the desire to be with people outside the family very often will fire up.
Jill Parmer: My kids would get up to greet or say good bye to visitors. I think part of it might have been that I was respectful of their games, and would ask when they could get to a pausing point. And knew they could safely get back to their place.
CelesteB left the chat 13 days ago
Sandra Dodd: Marta, about including other people in groups? Or about moms monitoring online play? What helped?
Virginia W: Lydia used to have a friend she Skyped with almost daily, but one day he mocked her appearance and she never spoke to him again.
Sukayna: I was going to say maybe something happened to make her feel more self conscious?
Sandra Dodd: Maybe friendships were more trouble than they were worth.
Sukayna: at that age, sometimes, kids start to really pick on each other (especially school kids, it just seems ok to them)
AlexP: Marta, Gigi was playig lots of Minecraft and that age and there was some crying and upset kids, sometimes her. I helped as much as I could. She still plays with some of the same friends but now they always work things out and are wonderful suporters of each other. I think the age is like that. I helped by listening and giving ideas .
Marta Venturini: What helped was to be more present. :) Even if it felt like they were managing to play peacefully (which started to be obvious that they weren't), I needed to be there. Not interfering, but paying attention to small cues that something could need some kind of mediation.
Sandra Dodd: Holly went through a phase like that, when she was 11, 12. Marty says she was just too irritating to keep friends. I think she was critical and unwilling to compromise about what she considered dishonesty or rudeness or silliness.
Virginia W: She is definitely puberty-ing hard right now.
Sandra Dodd: But the effect was that she had a couple of lonely years.
Sukayna: it is hard to negotiate when you have had enough, not worth it
Sukayna: some people put up with alot to keep friendships
Sukayna: some cannot- like Holly and my oldest girl, too
Sandra Dodd: Sometime I wish I had. :-) Not too often, but there are friends I let go because they were critical of my kids or of unschooling. GONE! Next?
Sandra Dodd: But the effect is that my in-person friends who could've been my friends of 30 years are mostly off and gone, and I don't mind.
AlexP: My son is really sweet to younger kids but he is a kid that needs his space and solitude. he needs quiet too. One of the reasons Japan may work for him as people are veryreserved there as he is.
Sukayna: I have done that, too Sandra
Amber: I feel like my 4 year old is not always good at taking turns, or sharing, and it feels embarrassing at times, and I'm never sure if it's because she's 4, or because she's an only child, or if there's something I could be doing better. Or maybe all of those.
Sandra Dodd: Partly the friendships were based on the Society for Creative Anachronism in some cases, and either they quit before I did, or I quit and they're still playing.
Virginia W: Yup, Alex, Lydia is like that. Including wanting to go to Japan!
Sandra Dodd: If I went back, we'd be friendly and hang out there. So that's situational friendships, like co-workers. Classmates.
Sandra Dodd: Contextual.
Jill Parmer: Yes, Alex and Marta, I think that helps a lot. I did that too. I would help Luke and his friends navigate the disagreements, and eventually they would handle things. I think the other boys' parents were helping those kids too.
Sandra Dodd: And my kids have friends like that. Gamer friends. Music friends.
Sukayna: maybe her personality, Amber?
Sukayna: leadership type
Sandra Dodd: Pam Sorooshian has a great story about Roya being bossy to other young girls, when they were... five? Young.
AlexP: Yes the uschooled paarents in the group Gigi played with were always messaging me back and forth.
Sandra Dodd: Pam either took her aside or afterward told her the other girls might not like Roya telling them how to play.
Sandra Dodd: Roya looked at her mom and said "but how else will they know what to do?" or something. :-) A director! :-)
Sukayna: sounds like Ruqayya!
Sandra Dodd: Or Kirby.
Sukayna: Rabaab still reminds her of scripted to the letter barbie play :)
AlexP: Now that the group of girls are older they resolve their issues so well they rarely get upset! And they have some intense gaming moments!
Marta Venturini: Another thing that helped me was to let go of the expectation of other parents being different (more present, more attentive, whatever). I changed and that helped tons. :)
Sukayna: Finally she had enough and stopped playing
AlexP: I was really bossy as a child.
Sandra Dodd: One thing I notice a need for when my kids were little was to coach them, before a party, about who was the guest of honor—in terms of which person it was they had a duty to defer to.
Amber: Ah yes, mine does like to direct the play a lot - she gets big into a show and wants to recreate it at play dates - but I mean more like swings at the play ground (2 swings for many kids) or who gets to pick a show to watch first (this was a play date at our house yesterday and I let the youngest of 3 kids pick first - and that wasn't her)
Sukayna: I had tried to talk with them, but until she decided it was no longer worth it, she wanted to abide by her sisters script
Sandra Dodd: But not in those phrases. It would be like "It's Chris's birthday, so help make sure he has fun."
Amber: And I *had* told her on the drive home that I would let the youngest pick first
Sandra Dodd: "Let her have her way today, because it's her birthday"
Sandra Dodd: For graduation parties, and weddings, it's easy, too, to remind them not to out-loud or out-shine the person in whose honor the party is.
Sandra Dodd: When my kids were young enough to fight over "turns," we had a rotation. One for the car, especially. And one for the computer..
Sukayna: At the park, I always said it is here for everyone, so everyone gets a turn...
Sandra Dodd: The car was a good one. Youngest to oldest, so Holly, Marty, Kirby, Holly in rotation.
Serah: i was a bossy kid too
Sukayna: yes, we had dibs for the front seat etc
Amber: Maybe saying youngest first was too arbitrary - I could've made it be about letting our guests pick first
Sandra Dodd: The one whose turn it was got to choose where to sit in the car. Not necessarily front, but their choice.
Jill Parmer: What Sandra said about letting go of friendships. I got to the point of being okay with that too. Some were too whiny or negative about things, and as I live better by unschooling principles I didn't want those type of friendships any longer.
Sandra Dodd: The next got second choice. The one with last choice was going to be first choice on the next car ride.
Serah: the boys use "shot gun"
Sukayna: yes, jill!!
AlexP: Ah Sandra I awalys got my way in the car!! Front passager seat was mine. I was a terror I confess
Sukayna: I have so much other wonderful stuff to do (jill)
Marta Venturini: Same here, Jill.
Sandra Dodd: I'm not recommending "shot gun" or Alex always getting her way. I'm suggesting something fair and interesting. :-)
Serah: or rocks, paper, scissors to settle disputes
Sukayna: long trips count as two short ones :)
Jill Parmer: I remember you writing about coaching for situations and guests of honor, Sandra, all those years ago. And now I see my kids doing that easily and normally. It always gives me a warm little smile inside.
Sukayna: we still have this on road trips...
Sukayna: i think we prepared them sort of intuitively since we (both of us parents) had been raised in really polite, etiquette-adherent types of homes
Parvine: I was easily bossed by other kids as a child and made me very aware of doing things by turn between the kids.
Sandra Dodd: I didn't learn that from having children, though. I learned it from road trips in a big van we owned. We had "precedence" on trips. The first person who had asked to go would have more precedence for the whole trip there and back than those who came in at the last minute. That mattered because sometimes there were other kinds of precendence (in the medieval-club hierarchy, or of age). So because it was my van and I wanted peace and fairness, it might be a teenaged boy who came in first, and when we stopped for a meal, HE got to choose where to sit first. He could (often did) courteously give that away to someone eles, or take other people's preferences into account, but I wasn't going to let someone who had asked us first get stuck in the back, or not get his way about which restaurant we stopped at or whatever.
Sukayna: we were thinking this is just what you do with kids- explain, show them how to have guests or receive gifts, or attend a party
Sandra Dodd: IT IS!
Sandra Dodd: I mean, I totally agree with you. :-)
Sandra Dodd: For us, I think rules-for-a-day, or advice for one particular event, was the way to go. Not an over-arching "etiquette" rule, but "So, today..." and giving them just one or two social pointers about what was about to happen.
Sandra Dodd: And from that, as Jill was saying, they start to create their own awareness of what factors are at play in bridal showers, after-parties, house concerts, meeting the cast after a play.
Amber: so before we go to the park, maybe a reminder about not taking too long a turn on the swings in order to be nice to other kids who might be waiting? and that if she is the one waiting that she can play instead of standing there and whining?
Sukayna: yes, then they are not cluelessly led into a trap or embarassment
Sandra Dodd: Yes, things like that.
Sandra Dodd: We used to let guests choose the movie, or the game.
Sandra Dodd: I mean my kids could propose one, but if the guest didn't want to do it, then that was a veto the guest had. "She doesn't want to, she's company, let's do something different," I might say.
Sukayna: yes, lots of sweet gentle reminders about different expectations, different times
Sukayna: she is still really young!
Sandra Dodd: So then when one of my kids went elsewhere and didn't get to choose because the parents would say "well, it's his house, and he wants to do this," they complained to me a few times. So I said "Which way do you like best?"
Sandra Dodd: And that different people are different ways
Sukayna: Also ideas about how to be a good guest, not just a host
Jill Parmer: I think with the 4 year old, maybe you need to gauge how much she can handle of being in a group or more alone play. Maybe trial and error will give you ideas to what situations she's ready for.
Sukayna: yes Sandra!
Sandra Dodd: We had unschooling meet-ups at our house for a couple of years, if the weather at the park was bad. But even at the park, they got good about taking toys they were willing to share.
Sandra Dodd: And hiding their toys at home that were not for sharing, but putting out some to share.
Sukayna: we put things away, too, stuff that was just too special to share should not be on display
Sandra Dodd: Marty used to barricade his room and climb out the window before other kids came over. That's how he put his toys away. :-)
Amber: we bring toys to the park to share too, but yesterday at the park there were a lot more kids around because of spring break and little ones were grabbing and running off with toys while caretakers were oblivious, so that was challenging
Sukayna: we had some friends who showed but did not share and that was hard for them when they were small
Sandra Dodd: When they were gone, he went back in the window and moved the dresser.
Sukayna: nicer to not let it he an issue
Sandra Dodd: All of those things are about principles and not rules, I think.
Sandra Dodd: When coaching them, I would say "because we want him to like us, and want to come back over and play."
Sandra Dodd: or "I want them to like you, and invite you back, so remember..."
Sukayna: hahaha Marty was a planner!
Sandra Dodd: but I wouldn't say more than one or two things.
Sandra Dodd: he still is a planner. :-)
Sandra Dodd: But more generous.
Amber: i know my daughter doesn't do well in large groups, but she does ask to have friends come over, so I am trying to help that happen
Serah: that's pretty smart of Marty!
Sukayna: good :)
Sandra Dodd: Teen years can change everything.
Parvine: that is the great advantage of one social situation at a time, it does not become overwhelming or feel like set of "rules". It feels more like navigating through . Leili put some toys that she did not want played with away or out of reach
Sandra Dodd: And then another change at adulthood, I've found.
AlexP: interestingly enough my son was wonderful at sharing and playing with other kids when he was a tiny boy! 1,3,4,5. He was so kind and sweet. As he got older and kids got meaner he had some bad experiences ( yea I was there but they still happened) and kids were mean to him or left him out . Now he is the kid that is not interested in having friends. He is still super sweet to the little kids just reserved and not interested with older kids. He does not like the "one up" a lot of kids do at his age.
Sandra Dodd: When they went to birthday parties, I would coach them about saying something nice when they got there or handed the gift over, and something nice when they left.
Sandra Dodd: I was usually there, too, but let them say "Here's a gift" or "happy birthday" and then at the end something like "I had fun" or "thanks for inviting me."
Sandra Dodd: Not ONE thing to say, but two or three suggestions of something, and they could figure out the range gradually.
Sukayna: alex- sometimes that is ok, to protect himself, right? he is not mean, just not being vulnerable to abuse
Sandra Dodd: Once when Kirby and marty were teens, young/mid-teens, they went to a funeral of a friend's mom.
Virginia W: Alex, Lydia got sick of her last local friend for that reason, the one-upsmanship.
Sandra Dodd: They asked me what to do and what to say, and just like the birthday parties, I told them what might be the physical layout, and who they would be expected to greet, and a couple of things they might say. Mostly, not to be loud or laugh.
Marta Venturini: What does "one up" mean, Alex?
Virginia W: Everything became a contest with him.
Sukayna: establishing a heirarchy, marta
Sandra Dodd: Keeping score, Marta. That if the kid says "I can do this," the other kid making a claim that's "one up"—slightly better.
Sandra Dodd: It's sometimes called "one-upsmanship" (a sort of social poor sportsmanship)
Jill Parmer: <<>> To help my kids be calm in that type of situation, I was willing to buy them toys that other kids had but wouldn't share in a public situation like that. Over time, they might like to get that toy or it wasn't all that great to actually go purchase. But I think my offer helped them.
Marta Venturini: Thanks, Sandra.
AlexP: A few years ago he was at a pool party and two kids kept calling him Pimple butt face. The kids were sneaky and it was the owner of the house and his cousin. My son just calmly asked why they were being mean and calling him names. He was great about it but I sure it it was not fun.
Sukayna: I did that too, but they still remember the stingy no -sharing kids, and it obviously bothered them to see it and not be allowed to touch it
AlexP: I asked if he wanted to leave and I think we did not stay long. This kid had been nice to him previous.
Sandra Dodd: when kids were insulting or teased or whatever, I would try to say something that left some hope for the future, like "Maybe he was frustrated about something," or "She might not be that way when she gets a little older."
Marta Venturini: I've done that too, Jill. I think it helped Conchinha too. And sometimes she would just not be interested in the toy after all.
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes two kids can get along great, but the addition of another kid or two changes the dynamics.
AlexP: Yep dinamics can change with more than two kids are around.
Sandra Dodd: So it can be worth pointing that out, or trying again with just the two kids without an audience, or without a kid who might be a bad influence on one of them.
Sandra Dodd: When I taught Jr. High I saw lots of dyads, triads, of kids I knew well, and how the behavior would change with the addition of this kid, or another.
Marta Venturini: Yes Sandra!, that's part of what happened with Conchinha in that situation that I was talking about earlier. The dynamics had changed too, because there was a third kid.
Sukayna: unfortunately, it seems the polite or sensitive kids get picked on more - like easier targets, no retribution is expected
Sandra Dodd: I also learned ways to manage larger groups of kids by dealing with soem of those key individuals whose behavior would be emulated, or whose absence would change the balance.
Sandra Dodd: I learned to do it without it being obvious. I was really happy with that, in those days. :-)
Virginia W: We had an interval when my youngest daughter's best friend
Virginia W: Was being mean to my older daughter
Sandra Dodd: Sukayna, that's just how primates are, and probably mammals.
Virginia W: And then Miriam would keep acting that way for several hours after the friend left
Sandra Dodd: I think it can't be helped that in any situation there will be some positioning, some social.... what's it called?
Sandra Dodd: Butt-sniffing? (figuratively, or in dog-terms)
AlexP: Yep. My son is sensitive. He may not look like but he is.
Sukayna: yes, my oldest/youngest are this way
Sukayna: middle one is very sensitive but can totally handle rude people
Sandra Dodd: So we can't change that people are that way, but we can help prepare our children.
Sandra Dodd: We can't child-proof the world. We can only do what we can to world-proof the child.
Sukayna: i explained about trying to establish a hierarchy and stuff
Marta Venturini: :)
Sukayna: and that is sadly normal primate social behavior
Sandra Dodd: Now that can be a serious and normal problem with unschoolers—the hierarchy.
Sukayna: so how to help the sensitive ones?
Sandra Dodd: School kids get used to it mattering which school, and what grade one is in.
Sukayna: to prepare them, or teflon coat them?
AlexP: I t
Sandra Dodd: We had neighbors we invited over, when we moved to this house. I had high hopes that these boys and mine would be friends.
Sandra Dodd: But the very first visit, they wanted my boys to go and play basketball and mine wanted them to play video games.
Sandra Dodd: And those boy asked my boys what grade they were in and where they went to school. No school, and they didn't know what grade they would be in.
AlexP: Gigi did great in school. She has great self esteem and is very sure of herself . So socially she did very well in the months she was in school. I was curious to see how she would do but she is so sure of herself and kind.
Sandra Dodd: So the other two boys, who were about their age, did not know how to respond, or how to treat them. They weren't used to any other kind fo friendships.
Sandra Dodd: Then they asked "what's your team?" Kirby said "What do you mean?" "Football." Still, blank.
Sandra Dodd: Their family loves the Green Bay Packers. That is "their team." My boys had no favorite football team. So the neighbors' plan B failed too.
Sandra Dodd: My kids were duds. :-)
Amber: My husband reads up on sports he doesn't care about so that he can talk to other guys about it.
AlexP: Oh Green Bay Packers fans? Does not surprise me then!
Sandra Dodd: Just all the ways we're talking about above, Sukayna. Two or three points made for each situation.
Sandra Dodd: Review.
Sandra Dodd: Try to explain a little bit, not everything. Coach for next time.
Sandra Dodd: Say "some people are like that" as necessary. :-)
Jill Parmer: With unschooling kids can find out which situations they like best and do things along those lines. They won't necessarily learn that it's "cooler" to be in a crowd, like in school, where groups seem better than being alone.
Sandra Dodd: Interesting, Amber. :-)
Serah: that's happened with us too... there was this mom I really liked but her son and mine just couldn't find a common point.
Sukayna: yes ok- more of the same then
AlexP: Yes Jill!
Sandra Dodd: Yes. Groups of just kids, things are different, with unschooled kids.
Sandra Dodd: Our kids were more used to mixed-ages, and with not caring where the other kids lived, just whether they wanted to play this or that.
Jill Parmer: Right. Same here about different aged groups, and being able to talk to parents.
AlexP: It is interest based not age/grade/cool group based.
Sandra Dodd: But (referencing back to the beginning of the chat) I think with the expectations of older relatives, there are things that are not different for unschoolers.
Sukayna: my kids are now not so into the age thing, the interest is more compelling
Sandra Dodd: My kids, Kirby especially, were better than some at peacekeeping, in groups, and in creating some more happiness if things got tense.
Sukayna: rabaab is our peacemaker :)
Sukayna: she can find commonality and solve issues for the group, but if you insult her, look out!
Serah: Qm is our peacemaker :-)
Sandra Dodd: So Rabaab is the manager, director type? Peace on her terms? :-)
Sandra Dodd: Holly. :-)
Marta Venturini: :)
Sukayna: well all are sort of that way, rabaab comes across as so mellow....but she has that other side, too
AlexP: So I know this is ways w
Catiamaciel joined the chat 13 days ago
Sukayna: all three are pretty sweet and tolerant, but if you cross certain lines, then it is over. calmly over. :)
Sandra Dodd: Even Keith and Marty, who can tolerate a lot, have calmly closed down friendships. No fanfare, no drama. Just done, quietly.
AlexP: I know this is ways away but since we are doing this chat. What are the things that will be helpful to my son , that I can coach him, if he does indeed go to Japan to live with another family.
Sandra Dodd: Holly and seem to require a parting speech. Too bad.
AlexP: ?
Sandra Dodd: Youtube.
Sandra Dodd: Remind him if he's confused he could google it.
Sandra Dodd: There are more and more commentaries and lists about behavior and cultural expectations.
Sandra Dodd: and I. " Holly and I seem to require a parting speech. Too bad."
Sukayna: Zaynab is taking online Japanese culture/language courses, you tube type stuff, for fun
Sandra Dodd: Maybe a couple of phrases he could say in Japanese like "I'm sorry, I'm confused."
Sandra Dodd: or "I think I'm misunderstanding"
Sandra Dodd: There is a U.S. State Department page for each other country, but generally that's advice for adults. Still, it's really interesting to look things up.
AlexP: great ideas. He is studying some Japanese he tell me.
Sukayna: google some expat type blogs about what they found surprising when in Japan?
AlexP: Cool
Sandra Dodd: For India it said it's better not to try to drive, but if you do rent a car, and if you hit a pedestrian or a cow, step calmly away and try to find a police station. Don't stay there.
Sukayna: often, on the ground, real people notice things more polished sites do not mention
Amber: Is there anyone who is Japanese in your community that you could ask for pointers?
Sandra Dodd: I loved the gentle image of them suggesting you not stay there and be ... what, beat to death? Unclear. :-)
Sukayna: :))
Jill Parmer: Is he willing to be more social, if that is the way of his host family? And maybe help him figure out ways to have his alone time, or to calm that need, if necessary.
Amber: If not, I have friends and family who are Japanese that I could ask for you
Sandra Dodd: There are many videos of kids talking about home-stay, family-stay in japan, and what went well and what didn't.
AlexP: No Japanese friends around. Several in Japan including our Japanese "son"
Sandra Dodd: There will be even more by the time he goes. :-)
Jill Parmer: Schuyler might have some ideas about going to Japan.
Sandra Dodd: She lived with her husband though, and had her own kitchen. These kids will be sharing bathroom and kitchen with natives.
Sukayna: Also, luckily, english is pretty common these days in japan, right alex?
Sukayna: oh- wash with water, alot, in the bathroom. big deal in the eastern cultures. super important.
AlexP: yes and no Sukayna
Sandra Dodd: The first night I was in India, I offered to stay with Zoya so the rest could go to a work-related party. Before they left I asked what the emergency number is (like their 911). Hema smiled and said there wasn't one—to go to the neighbors if there was an emergency.
Sukayna: we have Japanese bathroom fixtures in lebanon :)
AlexP: Kids learn English but cannot speak. He wants to lean Japanese :)
Sukayna: we read up on why they are the same- lots of common ideas about cleanliness all over asia in bathrooms
Sandra Dodd: I know someone who was an exchange student in Germany. The first day he got there, he was taking a shower. The mom of the family banged on the door and told him he wasn't doing it right. He was quite disturbed by that.
Sandra Dodd: Apparently, they don't leave the water running. They get wet, turn it off, soap up, turn it on, rinse off.
Sukayna: so maybe he can prepare conversational japanese and some basic cultural stuff and immerse himself later?
Sandra Dodd: Perhaps nowadays there are youtube videos about German exchange students who say... :-)
AlexP: I will look those up . He has become a very clean person. His room i clean and he folds his clothes and makes his bed. He tells me about follwoing all the rules of the family will not be a problem. Doing chores and helping clean the school too.
Sandra Dodd: Will he need to practice sleeping with a block pillow or a roll?
Sandra Dodd: :-)
Sandra Dodd: Those look really uncomfortable to me.
Sukayna: we have those too- but bought western style ones as we are wimpy
Sandra Dodd: Maybe he could take his own pillow.
Sukayna: yes, i call them cement bags
AlexP: Good idea about sleeping! I will check all that! He may have fun trying!
Marta Venturini: :)
Sandra Dodd: Deoderant (as I have just recently learned). He shouldtake his own.
AlexP: Yes I remember that from the video you sent Sandra! I will have to make sure he does!
AlexP: He is not Korean or Japanese and he can stink. Although much less now than a year ago. It seems! Maybe because he is much cleaner now too :)
Sandra Dodd: He should take gifts for everyone.
Serah: yeah, gifts that's always a winner!
AlexP: Yes! Thanks for that reminder. Japanese are big with gifts. We send a gift to our Japanese Son' s daughter this Christmas.
Sukayna: and definitely learn the proper respectful responses to elders
Sandra Dodd: * Omiyage: It’s expected for travelers to bring back gifts, or omiyage, for friends, family and coworkers.
Sukayna: they are quite rigid and specific, Zaynab says :)
Sukayna: this here too! all the luggage is gifts for other people!!
AlexP: My son is very specific so in a way I think the culture may make him feel at home.H
Sandra Dodd: See what holidays there will be when he's there, so he can be prepared in advance in case it's a gift-giving holiday
Sukayna: maybe he can find out what is rare and cool for families there beforehand?
Sukayna: perfume was a treat here- designer perfume- because of tariffs much more costly over here
Sukayna: duty free is your friend in that case
AlexP: Cool! Yes I can find out. I have several long time friends in Japan.
Sukayna: ask your friends for helpful advice, maybe
AlexP: All great ideas thank you.
Sandra Dodd: Next week's chat topic, I get to pick. Know why? It's my anniversary next week.
Marta Venturini: :)
Sandra Dodd: I want to talk about this: http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/...
Sukayna: happy anniversary!
Sandra Dodd: Helping children discover and appreciate art
Amber: <3 p="">
Sandra Dodd: Thirty two years
Sandra Dodd: But we will be home with Devyn starting tomorrow and for a week.
Marta Venturini: :-X
Sandra Dodd: I mean she will be home with us.
Sandra Dodd: Not "for a week," but each day during school-hours.
Sandra Dodd: What Keith wanted to do for our anniversary was visit Holly at work in Española, and then have dinner in Santa Fe on the way home.
Sandra Dodd: But... Spring break, Devyn.
Sandra Dodd: So we're having Kirby and Marty's family's over for barbecue take-out and board games.
Jill Parmer: Happy Anniversary.
Marta Venturini: That sounds like fun too! :)
Sandra Dodd: Thans.
Sandra Dodd: k.
AlexP: Fun! Enjoy!!
Sandra Dodd: Thanks.
Jill Parmer: Will Keith get to go to visit Holly after that?
AlexP: Happy Anniversary!
Sukayna: nice to be enjoying each other, too
Jill Parmer: oh wait, sorry, he wanted to do that for your anniversary.
Jill Parmer: Darn.
Sandra Dodd: She's changing her work schedule some, but we will go sometime and see her at work.
Serah: happy Anniversary!!
Sukayna: sort of what you've been doing for 32 yrs :)
Sukayna: that topic looks very interesting, too
Sandra Dodd: She'll be working two days in a little (tiny) place called Rinconada, and three days in Espanola (two branches of the same business) and she's also doing construction work for $12 an hour.
Sukayna: art everywhere
Sandra Dodd: The business is called Blue Heron Brewery. Local beers and wines, pizza, salads, sandwiches.
Sandra Dodd: http://www.blueheronbrews.com
Sandra Dodd: It says Embudo. It's up around the bend in Rinconada.
Sandra Dodd: Northern New Mexico has town names every half a mile or three. :-)
Sandra Dodd: -=-sort of what you've been doing for 32 yrs-=-
Sandra Dodd: Yes, but without the medieval costumes of most of those years. :-)
Serah: thanks for the chat!
Sandra Dodd: Thank you all very much for being here.
Sukayna: well, have a costume bbq then :)
Serah: \bye
Jill Parmer: Thanks all. /wave
Jill Parmer left the chat 13 days ago
Sandra Dodd: I hope everyone got some good ideas, and shared some good ideas and we're all fortified and uplifted.
Amber: same day and time next week?
Sandra Dodd: :-)
Marta Venturini: Thanks for the chat, Sandra!
Serah: \bye
Serah: i cant leave
Sandra Dodd: Serah's stuck! wrong slash.
Sukayna: thanks for the chat everyone!
Marta Venturini: Hehehehe
Serah: \bye
Serah left the chat 13 days ago
Sandra Dodd: other slash direction, Serah
Sukayna: realy enjoying these chats!
Sukayna: really
Virginia W: I'm glad the chat started up again. Thanks for your time.
Marta Venturini: They're great! I love them!
Sandra Dodd: The rest of you have been here, right? to know to get out do NEARLY what Serah did. Do this, on its own line: /bye
Sandra Dodd: I'm glad more people are coming. It's worth two hours when it's cheery and quick.
Sandra Dodd: So thank you all for making chats that the rest of you enjoy. :-) I can't do it by myself.
