Sandra Dodd left this message 12 days ago:
A slightly abridged transcript of "Who Can Unschool?" from February 25 is here:
http://chattranscripts.blogspot.com
http://chattranscripts.blogspot.com
March 3's chat will be Uses of "the media"
Lisa Celedon: Hi :)
Amber: :)
Sandra Dodd: I'm almost here; not quiet. :-)
Sandra Dodd: Marta can't come today. It's her brother's birthday and they're going out.
Sandra Dodd: Marta had this on her facebook page today, so I'm bringing it for the record and will leave it here.
Sandra Dodd: http://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/comp...
Sandra Dodd: It's about how damaging complaining is to health and thought.
Sandra Dodd: I'm very sorry to have failed to send a notice of this chat this week. Just didn't. I did come here and clear the room and leave a note. :-)
Amber: In starting to read that article, seems fitting for your page on negativity
Serah: i put a reminder in my phone
Sandra Dodd: I put one on my phone today too. I should put one on Sunday, to send a notice that will be delivered on monday.
Amber: "You are whom you hang out with." --> this is a topic I've been thinking about a lot lately
Sandra Dodd: I like m page better than that article.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe there's something more direct, about the writing, with less advertising, opinion....
Amber: It's related to the video you added recently
Amber: not related - similar I mean
Parvine joined the chat 6 days ago
ErinElizabeth joined the chat 6 days ago
Lisa Celedon: Last week's chat really helped me. I had gone to bed and woken up in a gloomy mood, and I left the chat feeling really good, and had a really good day, really connected with the kids and enjoying myself. So thanks. :D
Sandra Dodd: We'll start the topic when we have ten people. Any other issues or questions quick before that happens?
Sandra Dodd: Good, Lisa!
AlexP: that is good Lisa!
Sandra Dodd: Last week's was about the attributes and attitudes (alliteration again!?) peole need for unschooling to work.
AlexP: I also have a reminder in my phone,
Sandra Dodd: My hands are cold and I'm dropping letters.
Sandra Dodd: I lifted a list, on the transcript page:
Sandra Dodd: I lifted a list, on the transcript page:
Sandra Dodd: Useful Traits: curious and optimistic about the world Happy hopefulness helps. Creativity or curiosity. Aptitude and ability humble and hilarious interested and interesting Helpfulness and confidence Courage and confidence Sweet and aparkly Gentle and generous Kind and knowledgeable Kind and keen Accepting and aware Growth-oriented and gentle playful and positive Resourceful
Lisa Celedon: It's really helpful to look over that list and have a good perspective on how many of those qualities I have in abundance, and think about them as guides, rather than getting caught up in where I feel I'm lacking (which can really drag me down)
Sandra Dodd: it's cut and paste, and in a list format on the page. But seems sparkly is misspelled.
Amber: my husband pointed out that I'm confident about my bad traits, and not confident about my good traits
Sandra Dodd: By "Confident about" does he mean "entrened in" or "attached to"? :-)
Sandra Dodd: entrenched in...
Amber: I certainly talk about them more
Sandra Dodd: I hope the chat helped you more than for just one day, Lisa
AlexP: that is a great list. Good reminders for me!
Sandra Dodd: I think there's a list already on my site somewhere
Amber: having a list also can be something to aspire to, in which case I (or others) might be more apt to see those aspects in myself
Sandra Dodd: And it can help in making decisions one way or the other, through the day
ErinElizabeth: I like how "Kind" is on there twice, it is important :)
Amber: "how can I be more sparkly today" ... "how can I be more gentle right now" ...
Sandra Dodd: Before we talk about "the media" I want to look at what the word means and what "it" is and isn't.
Sandra Dodd: It's not a new word at all, and it's plural for "medium."
Sandra Dodd: Not like a medium Coke at Burger King.
Sandra Dodd: But "the medium" by which something is transmitted.
Sandra Dodd: Try to clear your mind of the past 100 years.
Sandra Dodd: Go back before radio. :-)
Sandra Dodd: if there's an old word, "medium," and if there's an old term, "the media"—what kinds of things were they talking about?
Sandra Dodd: (We can get back to the 20th and 21st centuries in a bit.)
ErinElizabeth: newspaper, books
Lisa Celedon: Speech
Sandra Dodd: Think artists,
Sandra Dodd: crystal balls
Sandra Dodd: sculptors
Lisa Celedon: I was thinking cave paintings, story telling around fires
Amber: communication methods
Sandra Dodd: If one were to write to one's grandmother, what would be "the medium" to use?
Lisa Celedon: Clothing as a medium
ErinElizabeth: letters
Amber: exchanging knowledge and ideas
Lisa Celedon: I would use pretty stationary or card
Jean left this message 6 days ago:
Letters, snail mail
Serah: communication between worlds (supernatural)
Amber: paper. ink.
Sandra Dodd: The stationery is the conveyance. The medium is ink, or pencil
Lisa Celedon: Okay
AlexP: media in arts can mean; paper, clay, fabric , bronze, anything an artist creates art with
Serah: ghosts, spirits
Sandra Dodd: So it IS related to the medium Coke, in a way.
Sandra Dodd: It's the thing in between.
Amber: med / mid
Amber: similar to median in math
Sandra Dodd: Newspapers, in England, were called "the media" in the 19th century.
Sandra Dodd: Related, but the median isn't transmitting.
Sandra Dodd: (The Coke wasn't, either. :-))
Amber: it's in the middle, between
Sandra Dodd: Still think back a ways, but not past the 19th century.
Sandra Dodd: How about a medium for sound transmission (voice, music)?
Sylvia Woodman joined the chat 6 days ago
Serah: middle man, middle point, intermediary
Sylvia Woodman: Hi! Sorry I'm late!
Sandra Dodd: I tried to "like" Serah's comment. Doh!
Sandra Dodd: was cylinders, for recording sound.
Sandra Dodd: Phonograph records and Victrolas (wind-up record players, though that's the "player" and not the media.
Robin B joined the chat 6 days ago
Sandra Dodd: Darn. WAX cylinders
Sandra Dodd: And then better recording media.
Parvine: sound transmission: story telling , singing as form of transmitting stories and feelings
Sandra Dodd: Vinyl records. 45 rpm records for kids, and radio stations.
Jean joined the chat 6 days ago
Sandra Dodd: cassette tapes. DVDs. MP3. Streaming
AlexP: 8 tracks
Sandra Dodd: The music isn't "the media." The mechanism for getting it from the musician to the listener is the medium.
Sandra Dodd: This chat room is a medium for communication today.
Sandra Dodd: Right. 8 tracks.
Lisa Celedon: So, is a musical instrument a medium? I'm trying to clarify my idea of what it means.
Sandra Dodd: Even if there's someone here who's only 25 years old, in that lifetime, most media has changed. Even artists' materials have changed.
Sandra Dodd: No.
Sandra Dodd: A paint brush isn't, either.
Sandra Dodd: Paint is.
Sandra Dodd: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ar...
Sandra Dodd: There's a list (some cool, some confused me a little) of artistic media.
Sandra Dodd: For writing, someone made this list, new to old:
Sandra Dodd: For writing, someone made this list, new to old:
MaryinCO joined the chat 6 days ago
Sandra Dodd: Digital word processor and internet websites Letterpress printing and computer printing Marker Nib (pen) Pen and ink Pencil Quill
Parvine: music isn't the media but the voice is that transmits it..
Sandra Dodd: I think that's direct, if you're hearing live music.
Sandra Dodd: Didn't need "a middle man" or storage or delivery.
Sandra Dodd: It's like an in-person conversation wouldn't need "media" if we were all in one place.
Sandra Dodd: If you were able to chat with your own dead relatives, you wouldn't hire a psychic medium. (Not that most of us would anyway.)
Sandra Dodd: If a politician comes to your house and sits and has tea and talks, you have direct information.
Sandra Dodd: If you then write that up to share it with everyone you know... you will need a medium. Newspaper, magazine, radio or TV broadcast, blog, facebook page...
Sandra Dodd: When I was a kid, 50 years ago, "the media" was TV news, newspapers, radio, and magazines. When people complain about "the media" they aren't usually talking about whether an artist is using oils or acrylic or water colors.
Sandra Dodd: They're not usually discussing the avantage or disadvantage of digital over analog musical playback.
Sandra Dodd: But I did want to start back earlier, for clarity.
Parvine: door to door salesman were also directly selling. they showed you goods at home and had direct information about them.
Sandra Dodd: Quill and ink isn't very old, either, as writing goes—just wanted to say. Paint, a stylus on clay or wax. scratching on stone with a piece of metal...
Amber: using mediums for communication seems quintessentially human, not something to complain about
Sandra Dodd: Even when I was a kid, Parvine, that was more common in the U.S.
Robin B: I recall being confused when I first saw "mixed media" in reference to a work of art. I had only thought about it in terms "the media."
Sandra Dodd: Well, Amber, it's true. Priests and ministers are mediating between god and normal people, but they're not called "mediums."
Sandra Dodd: Words have denotation (what does it denote / name / point to?) AND connotation (what cultural or emotional baggage does this term have?)
Sandra Dodd: So when communicating between unseen worlds and normal physical Earth, if it's respectable, it's a holy man (or that whole group of people). If it's suspicious, it's "a psychic." If it's scientifiic, it's the Very Large Array, listening for radio signals from other planets, they hope.
Parvine: This makes me think of the Bahai faith they do not have "mediums" they have no clergy or priests.
Sandra Dodd: (Is there a name for those astronomers hoping to get a message? I don't know.)
Sandra Dodd: So all the rest are suspicious, then, to bahais? :-)
Sandra Dodd: I was listening to The Book of Mormon earlier (again). One part says
Sandra Dodd: And I believe That the current President of the church, Thomas Monson, speaks, directly to God. I am a Mormon and, dang it, A Mormon just believes.
Sandra Dodd: So Hilary Clinton isn't coming to my house. I need to glean what I know about her from "the media."
Sandra Dodd: And that is where people complain. Because people always complain. :-)
Sandra Dodd: Instead of appreciating the fact that they can look and listen and read LOTS of information, and that it's their responsibility to choose trustworthy sources and evidence, they just seem to bitch and complain.
Sandra Dodd: And I think it's at that point where unschooling hits a snag.
Amber: "choose trustworthy sources and evidence" <<-- but="" how="" p="">
Parvine: Bahais base there faith on spiritual principles. They say it is between you and God.
Sandra Dodd: Because "the media" first will bring to mind news programs and (nowadays) links shared around facebook, it can be difficult for unschooling parents to think plainly and clearly about "the media" when asked what they think about it, or do about it, or whether the give their kids access to "it."
Sandra Dodd: Youtube.
Sandra Dodd: Netflix
Sandra Dodd: iPods
Parvine: ipads :)
Amber: cable (at least for now, until it goes away)
Sandra Dodd: If a child's "media isn't limited," people who have a negative view of the idea of "the media" think negative things.
Sandra Dodd: An iPad isn't "media." It's a tool.
Sandra Dodd: There are things in there that aren't "media," aren't there?
Sandra Dodd: Games that aren't being played online. Calendars, clocks.
Sandra Dodd: Map programs have become "the media" when you can click on a pin and it will tell you whether the business is open at this moment, when they open/close and how far it is. :-)
Parvine: ipods and iPads are a medium but Youtube is more direct? we listen/watch directly other individuals etc..
Sandra Dodd: So maybe the one best thing to take out of here is that if others ask you "What about the media?" you can say "What do you mean?"
Lisa Celedon: I think that's about control, like, parents being afraid of their kids being exposed to ideas that are different than the ones they want to instill in them. That their own influence isn't trustworthy enough to have enough weight with their child, so they have to have limited sources of input?
ErinElizabeth: in school the teacher and the textbook are the authority and the source of truth. There is very little opportunity to learn how to evaluate sources and questioning the authority is actively discouraged leaving people who haven't thought about it critically clueless and confused.
Sandra Dodd: Ask them to be more specific, and don't let them "booga booga" or intimidate you
ErinElizabeth: It's easier to just absorb what you hear than question whether it really makes sense
Sandra Dodd: Lisa, it's a little like papering over the windows in a schoolroom.
Lisa Celedon: limiting media, or what I'm saying? (or both?)
Sandra Dodd: Or in more modern schools, only having long slit windows, or windows up high to let light in, but so that there are no people or cars to see, to discract kids.
Sandra Dodd: True, ErinElizabeth.
Sandra Dodd: If the purpose of school is to "learn" and compete for grades, it's best not to question the sources.
Sandra Dodd: But unschooler giving their kids access to the real world at a young age CAN help them to learn to "consider the source."
Parvine: there is a lot of memorising required called "learning".
Amber: Well, also, if mainstream parents are using "media" as a way of getting away from their kids, then they don't understand the interactions that can happen in unschooling homes as parents are *with* their children who are accessing it?
Sandra Dodd: Required where?
Sandra Dodd: Amber, rephrase.
Sandra Dodd: You asked a way-confusing question.
Sandra Dodd: -=-Amber: "choose trustworthy sources and evidence" <<-- but="" how="" p="">
Sandra Dodd: How do you choose friends? How would you decide whether to lend someone $50?
Sandra Dodd: -=-Parvine: there is a lot of memorising required called "learning".-=-
Sandra Dodd: It's a form of learning.
Amber: I've lent money to the wrong person :}
Sandra Dodd: Names of bones, muscles; birds; automobiles.
Sandra Dodd: Names of kings of England in order. :-)
ErinElizabeth: experience from making good and bad choices gives the opportunity for making better choices
Parvine: Yes :)
Sandra Dodd: That's how you learn, sometimes—it costs $50, and you lose "a friend."
Amber: I'm trying to rephrase and having a hard time. I can drop it for now :)
Sandra Dodd: So with Facebook links. Sometimes I consider the source Right There. :-) Some people's opinions I know to be "lite."
ErinElizabeth: some can learn from others experiences as well, some really have to learn from their own
Sandra Dodd: There are other friends, my friend Steve Muhlberger whom I've known for over 30 years, who was a history professor until her retired—if he puts up a link, on facebook, I don't wonder whether it's nonsense.
Sandra Dodd: Another particular friend, I would be shocked if something she posted had any basis in fact.
Sandra Dodd: -=- some can learn from others experiences as well, some really have to learn from their own-=-
Sandra Dodd: "HAVE TO" alarm went off: http://sandradodd.com/haveto
Sandra Dodd: They shoudl put their kids in school, then.
ErinElizabeth: my have to alarm went off as I sent it :)
Sandra Dodd: if the parents haven't learned to use some discretion and good judgment, but can ONLY learn from personal failure, they don't have the maturity or intellect to help their kids learn. :-)
Sandra Dodd: Good! Internalize that alarm and my life gets easier (and yours gets stronger)
Sandra Dodd: -=-Amber: I'm trying to rephrase and having a hard time. I can drop it for now -=-
ErinElizabeth: I do know a few people like that, it's hard to watch them sometimes
Sandra Dodd: Ambers un-rephraseable question: Well, also, if mainstream parents are using "media" as a way of getting away from their kids, then they don't understand the interactions that can happen in unschooling homes as parents are *with* their children who are accessing it?
Sandra Dodd: I think maybe you're asking whether bad unschoolers wouldn't become better unschoolers if they helped their children instead of escaping into entertainment or "the media"?
Sandra Dodd: Some people trust everything they read. They believe everything they hear or see. Gullibility.
Sandra Dodd: Exciteabillty and lack of critical-thinking skills.
Amber: I was thinking about Lisa's comment about parents' influence on their kids. If the parents are watching things with their kids, they can be there to continue influencing.
Sandra Dodd: If I hear a story about anything, or anyone, I wonder how the person knows what he's just said. Maybe he's telling me who said, or giving me a link, or inviting me to go with him to look at the scene, or to a meeting following up on something.
Robin B: I wondered if Amber meant mainstream parents giving their kids access to TV, computers, etc. with no engagement from the parents. "Go watch TV."
Sandra Dodd: Some people are very honest and careful with their words and will say "I have heard that..." but others, with the same info and source, might say "Oh my god, THIS just happened, and I can't believe it!"
Sandra Dodd: So that's another way I judge whether something is likely to be worth hearing more of.
Sandra Dodd: Again, I could name names. :-)
Sandra Dodd: You probably have people in your own life (real or extended) you trust, or distrust. That's one way to help know whether you're getting warm or getting cold as to sources.
Sandra Dodd: But honestly, with young children, "the media" could use being old Mr Rogers videos for a few years, and not current politics.
Amber: Yes Robin. That was part of it too. In thinking about where fears of the media come from.
Sandra Dodd: Ah. Then yeah, that's a legitimate fear, on the part of in-laws. :-)
Sandra Dodd: But that's not talking about the good kind of unschoolers we're aiming to be and help others be. But now I think I do see the question. Thanks.
Sandra Dodd: Then it would be extra valid to ask what they mean, if they ask a question like "Don't you limit their access to the media?"
Amber: But people who complain about the media are also sometimes not complaining about the media itself but rather about the behavior "issues" that they think media creates
Sandra Dodd: Or you could say "Do you mean artistic media? Recorded music media?" And keep a straight face and big eyes. Blink slowly once or twice without removing your gaze.
Robin B: :-)
Sandra Dodd: Right. So asking will help you AND them, and your kids.
Sandra Dodd: Helping kids check facts and other sources is good.
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes I remember there would be an announcement that a certain game or gaming system was coming out on a certain date. Pre-google. :-)
Sandra Dodd: We could call a gaming shop, but sometime they weren't sure either.
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes the answer is "that report is two months old, and the date seems to have been pushed back."
Sandra Dodd: VERY often I go to try to find something and the web pages I'm looking at are two years old.
Sandra Dodd: Sometimes it's not a simple thing to get a simple answer.
Sandra Dodd: So te mom can say "I'm not sure, but let's keep an ear out for more news."
Sandra Dodd: So USES!
Sandra Dodd: How has your family made good use of the media?
Sandra Dodd: These are the stories you can pass on to those who ask.
Sandra Dodd: MUSIC!
Sandra Dodd: Music, and videos of music being played, or artistic music videos with art and dance, to the song.
Lisa Celedon: My internet went out and came back on, but I am going to go, Josh and the sitter are really engaged and Kai is looking a little bored and lonely.
Sandra Dodd: What's the group with the warehouses and art? Their first (or an early) video involved treadmills?
Amber: OkGo?
Sandra Dodd: YES!
Sandra Dodd: That stuff is really great.
Parvine: Amber people say their kids stop communicating and in their "own world" but it would not occur to them to take interest in their child's world.
Sandra Dodd: So much art can be discussed (perspective, kinetics)
Amber: My daughter went through a period of learning about the planets. Kids songs on YouTube were a lot of fun. After she learned all these songs, I thought it was silly to come across a mnemonic for memorizing the order of the planets.
Sandra Dodd: it's an easy defense if the mom can say "I'm always right there with them; we're exploring it together."
ErinElizabeth: Just last night my 5 year old and I used a globe with a flashlight and youtube videos to explore why the days get longer and shorter
Sandra Dodd: And what about Pluto!?
Sandra Dodd: The more unschooling people do, the better they become at it.
Sandra Dodd: And honestly, I don't want to imagine families that "banish" media for their kids, as they'll say. Though they might more likely (and horribly) call it "screentime."
Sandra Dodd: I know they do this because the hypocritical parents keep coming and publishing those explanations in public places online. :-)
Sandra Dodd: Learning to live in the real world they're growing up in is fantastic.
Amber: Yes, we've learned about dwarf planets because of Pluto. One of our songs on a CD is older and it says "Pluto, or Neptune, I never know which because the last two of the planets in our solar system switch" -- so that's encouraged some exploration
Sandra Dodd: There is a computer day at school once a week, where Devyn's going to school.
Sandra Dodd: She has an iPad.
Sandra Dodd: I doubt they're doing anything as interesting as she can already do talking to Siri.
Sandra Dodd: Amber, that's great, "which / switch"
Robin B: If you are with your kids, engaged with them in what they're doing, some worries (from grandparents) might dissipate. I think sometimes relatives worry about kids coming across inappropriate stuff for their ages. Or becoming mass shooters because they're playing D&D in their dank basements.
Amber: Do video games count as media?
Sandra Dodd: I don't think so. I think they're games.
Sandra Dodd: Monopoly was never "the media."
Sandra Dodd: And I don't think messenging and e-mail count, either. It's the new way to write to grandma.
Sandra Dodd: I was going to say, in my list of things about music—instructional youtube videos.
Amber: But videos on YouTube count?
Sandra Dodd: People will walk others through how to play a song on piano or guitar.
Sandra Dodd: SO NICE.
Sandra Dodd: Videos are conveying information from one person to many others.
Lisa Celedon: I'm here, Kai is next to me with some warmed pizza and Dinosaur King (on netflix--really cool, it's like pokemon with some of the same voice actors but with dinosaurs)
Sandra Dodd: Amber, we're not "counting." You're asking what counts.
Sandra Dodd: I was trying to make the point that "media" is not a new term or concept.
Sandra Dodd: You seem to be looking for rules and not principles. :-)
Amber: Sorry about that.
Sandra Dodd: Or for the edge of media. There's not an edge. It goes on and on in all directions, and into the past and the future.
Amber: I did use it twice.
Lisa Celedon: Some people say "media" and they mean anything their child can watch on tv or a tablet or phone, and anything they can play on a tablet or computer or tv as well. I hear it used that way often here where there are lots of waldorf-following families
Lisa Celedon: They even talk about mediated music, and it not being good for kids, and only live performance is good
Sukayna joined the chat 6 days ago
ErinElizabeth: waldorf doesn't even approve of books for young children does it?
Sandra Dodd: -=-They even talk about mediated music-=-
Sandra Dodd: -=-They even talk about mediated music-=-
Parvine: I think they also use the term " mass media" a lot.
Sandra Dodd: Do they say that, or recorded?
Sukayna: we have had a great time learning to play guitar and flute and violin online through videos and app-lessons
Sandra Dodd: (Do they say "mediated music"? or recordings
Sandra Dodd: Waldorf is a gigantic bunch of hooey.
Amber: Erin, from what I understood, Waldorf doesn't set about "teaching" reading until age 7 or so
Lisa Celedon: I don't actually know. I haven't heard that, but I also don't have contact with many full-on practicing waldorf families. Most of the people I know do a ... well I was going to say bastardized version, but hybrid or "waldorf inspired' is what they tend to say
Sandra Dodd: My children did much better growing up with art supplies, live and recorded music, video games, computer access, videos, books, and adults who talked to them as people (not just their parents, but other adult friends) ...
Lisa Celedon: I've heard "recorded music" "music from media sources" and "mediated music" in conversations about not allowing kids to watch tv or videos or use the computer. I don't know if those are real terms being used by people who write about waldorf stuff, or just terms people use in conversation.
Sandra Dodd: ...than they would have done hidden away in a fantasy/bullshit German forest of gnomes and silk scarves.
Lisa Celedon: I am SO SO glad for so much recorded music! I do not have a pleasant singing voice and I am so happy to have cd's and you tube playlists with lots of sweet, beautiful, fun kids' music, and lots of other kinds of music
ErinElizabeth: My boys are still young but I can already see in both of them how big their world is compared to mine as a child (I wasn't restricted, there just weren't nearly as many opportunities when I was young)
Amber: I guess in talking about how our family uses the "media" - I was thinking about how YouTube, TV, cartoons, video games, CDs, movies, all of that has become a source of enjoyment, a jumping off point for pretend play, and even an inspiration to make art
Sandra Dodd: No, you're right—it's a term. There's a study from 1993 that uses it about traditional music in India being recorded, and recordings being used.
Sandra Dodd: When live music might otherwise have been required (I can't read it—it's at jstor.org and I'm not a professor)
Amber: so in asking if whether certain things "count" - I meant, could I include those other things in my list of what we use and how it enriches our lives
Sandra Dodd: You mean when defending yourself to relatives?
Sandra Dodd: What your children learn from and enjoy is what you should include when you're talking about your children's joyful learning.
Amber: no, for purposes of adding to this conversation
Sandra Dodd: You can use whatever you want to use but maybe you won't need a list of things for anyone anyway.
Sandra Dodd: OH.
Sandra Dodd: Well I was going to side-step over to screentime, and there the video games come flooding in.
Sandra Dodd: So now, yes!
Amber: :)
Lisa Celedon: (I was thinking that, Amber, that I think I have confusion over what was meant by "media' and a medium, so I felt like I wasn't sure about what i could contribute to the discussion. Not sure if that's what you were saying)
Sandra Dodd: When people say "screentime" they seem ( according to a bad example I had this week )
Sandra Dodd: They do NOT mean "the media."
Sandra Dodd: Does that complicate things further for everyone?
Amber: a little :)
Lisa Celedon: I see it talked about as lumped together, all as one big bad thing.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe my point was to be "it's complicated," but being clearer yourselve about what is and isn't something for you to jump up and defend yourself about will help
Sandra Dodd: Yes. Technology is the next level up to be villified.
ErinElizabeth: wouldn't it be more accurate to say the current level of technology is likely to always be vilified?
Sandra Dodd: Technology as ruined our lives, these hypocritical people (moms—usually moms, and usually young moms) write, at their computers, or tables or smart phones, sitting in their automobiles or at Starbucks listening to recorded music over coffee that didn't grow in the parking lot there.
Lisa Celedon: It makes it easier for me to not figure out whether we're talking abotu a paintbrush or the paint.... I think I'm naturally inclined to think integratively about those.. not that it wasn't helpful to be clear about which is the medium and the conveyance... that's good stuff. I'm not used to doing that, so I was a little confused.
Sandra Dodd: Maybe, ErinElizabeth. Sometimes people condemn it all back to some point or other.
ErinElizabeth: technology changes, and currently includes cell phones and tablets and suck but used to be books or radio etc
Lisa Celedon: But I think the way I see it lumped together is simplistic and reductive, not integrative.
ErinElizabeth: *such, not suck
Sandra Dodd: Little House on the Prairie used to be a secondary religion to a lot of Christian homeschoolers. They LOVED it because they had No Technology.
Sandra Dodd: Mostly I turned away and didn't argue with them.
Sandra Dodd: But if I had wanted to, I would have started in one of two places: Conestoga wagons, and sailing ships capable of trans-Atlantic crossings.
Sandra Dodd: Both of those were EXTREMELY high-tech when they were new, and changed the world profoundly.
Sandra Dodd: Laura wouldn't have been in Kansas without them.
Celeste joined the chat 6 days ago
Sandra Dodd: -=-*such, not suck-=- Either one makes sense,
Celeste changed name to Celeste Burke
Sandra Dodd: Those poor people.
Sandra Dodd: "The media" was probably a newspaper out of Kansas City once in a while, with week-old news.
Sandra Dodd: And that might have been their best advantage.
Sandra Dodd: Only things worth writing down and then typesetting by hand were going to make it into the newspaper
Sandra Dodd: Perspective. :-)
Sandra Dodd: Personal, historical, philosophical perspective.
Sandra Dodd: Everyone should get some.
Sandra Dodd: Don't let the media freak you out about the evils of the media.
Sandra Dodd: Being frightened and excited and agitated is not a good place to be if you have children at home.
Sandra Dodd: Find a grounded way to be so that the children are the largest thing on your horizon, while they're little. Leave "the media circus" (another common term indicating excitement and exciteability) for those who aren't currently keepers of an unschooling nest.
Sandra Dodd: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everything... is a book some might want to buy for their detractors (if any—not everyone has relatives or friends complaining at them)
Sandra Dodd: From that link:
Sandra Dodd: Everything Bad Is Good for You: How Today's Popular Culture Is Actually Making Us Smarter is a non-fiction book written by Steven Johnson. Published in 2005, it is based upon Johnson's theory that popular culture – in particular television programs and video games – has grown more complex and demanding over time and is making society as a whole more intelligent. The book's claims, especially related to the proposed benefits of television, drew media attention.[1] It received mixed critical reviews.
Lisa Celedon: It helps me to be discerning in what news I pay attention to. This week SO much has been in my news feed on fb about political things and even the positive-framed stuff brings my thinking down to a level that is so much easier to start being more negative
Lisa Celedon: I tend to click 'like' a lot, and I'm starting to click it less and less. I was wondering too if adults feel the negative impact that the media they experience has on them, and then project that onto their kids' experience of it
Sandra Dodd: http://badforyoubook.com Bad For You: Exposing the War on Fun
Sandra Dodd: BAD FOR YOU takes a historical look at the hysterical horror adults have felt about kids starting back with Plato (yeah, that one) and his worries over the new “technology” from his time: the written word! Kevin C. Pyle and Scott Cunningham cleverly expose the long-standing FIGHT AGAINST FUN for what it really is: a bunch of anxious adults grasping at straws, ignoring scientific data, and blindly yearning for the good old days that never were.
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Sandra Dodd: Lisa, that's possible.
Sandra Dodd: Keith complains about facebook.
Sandra Dodd: He will say Facebook tends to... or Because if facebook, I...
ErinElizabeth: In the moms around me I see a lot of women who see their time on Facebook and the internet as signs of addiction, something they "can't manage responsibly" and so they restrict their kids to save them from it
Sandra Dodd: And I say "My facebook doesn't." or "That's the way you're using facebook."
Lisa Celedon: But my kids don't even notice political stuff! they are looking at the stuff that makes them happy. I'm the one who has a tendency to dwell on the things that scare me and worry me, and I can focus on being proactive about not clicking things that will lead me into negativity and worry. My kids do that naturally, it seems. At the age of 6 and 4.
Sandra Dodd: One of my friends went to the Colorado caucus and became a delegate or some such, so I read that.
Sandra Dodd: But I don't follow even what my own kids (well, Kirby) post about politics. I doubt he's even changed his voter registration to New Mexico since he moved. :-)
Sandra Dodd: ErinElizabeth, are those unschooling moms you're talking about?
Lisa Celedon: I've gotten waaay better, and its recently that Ive seen my tolerance for political stuff before i start feeling a little down is almost zero.
ErinElizabeth: one of them, but mostly not
Sandra Dodd: People like to limit.
Sandra Dodd: It takes more effort and conviction to allow choices and to help them manage what they're doing, and help them find things they will like.
Sandra Dodd: I think "the media" is where kids are learning to read and write.
Sandra Dodd: Even my kids, all now in their 20's, learned largely from video game play and videos with subtitles, and magazines about their hobbies and interests.
Lisa Celedon: I see that in local unschooling moms too! And they talk about it in front of their kids, even when they don't actively limit them. They are trying to manipulate through example, I think, some of them believe in non-coercion, so they talk abotu their own "sugar adiction" and "screen addiction" in front of their kids.
Sandra Dodd: That's too bad. They're weakening themselves, and the trust their kids will have in them.
Lisa Celedon: I know!!
ErinElizabeth: in our homeschooling group most of the parents are very engaged with their kids, I don't think offering their kids choices would require more effort than what they already do
Sandra Dodd: Do you have topics to propose for the next chat or two or three?
Lisa Celedon: I think they weaken the trust their kids have in themselves! Like, they are trying to practice radical unschooling, but don't understand that they aren't allowing the kids to cultivate trust in their choices.
Sandra Dodd: Good point.
ErinElizabeth: that's exactly what I see
Sandra Dodd: The kids won't learn what they like or what they feel if the mom keeps telling them what they feel and should like.
ErinElizabeth: which is why both of thw two "unschooling" families I know are pushing their older kids into school at home
Sandra Dodd: It's sad when people say "we unschooled, but it didn't work for us," when from the point of view of unschoolers it seems they never got it at all.
Lisa Celedon: I think it's easier to resist too, in a more direct way. But the way of subtle manipulation I think is more damaging. I don't know. I feel like I'm going off into negativity now.
Sandra Dodd: Knowing what you don't want to do helps when you're choosing what to do.
Sandra Dodd: Bad examples are (sadly) as important as good ones when people are choosing a course.
Lisa Celedon: The people here who act as "the experienced unschoolers" are people who now that I know them and see more of their families, unschooling didn't work well for them. I'm so glad for 'the media' and having access to more information rather than just what was available locally
Lisa Celedon: The people here who act as "the experienced unschoolers" are people who now that I know them and see more of their families, unschooling didn't work well for them. I'm so glad for 'the media' and having access to more information rather than just what was available locally
Sandra Dodd: Those sailing ships were created beause other ships could NOT go long distances with enough speed to get there before the food and water were gone.
Sandra Dodd: Conestoga wagons were created because other wagons fell apart on rough roads and could not travel 1500 miles.
Sandra Dodd: We build on what came before, and that's what progress (and technology :-) ) are about!
Sandra Dodd: And it's what parenting and unschooling are about, too. What has worked, what has failed, what can be tweaked and improved?
Lisa Celedon: Sustainability and longevity. I see a trend in human technology toward that. It makes sense, and makes me happy.
ErinElizabeth: I feel very lucky to be starting unschooling with so many high quality resources available
Lisa Celedon: I love that your discussions encourage that tweaking and improving. Locally I feel like it's more about surviving with what you've got.
Sandra Dodd: But what you've got can be increased!
Sandra Dodd: Unless what they've got is only what they're seeing physically and financially.
ErinElizabeth: through making better choices over and over
Sandra Dodd: htp://sandradodd.com/joy
Sandra Dodd: Seeing the same "got" in a new way, and redefining "surviving" would launch them forward, if they wanted.
ErinElizabeth: Life has been so much sweeter since I started actively looking for ways to create joy for my family, even (especially) when I wasn't feeling joyful myself
Lisa Celedon: Exactly! No, it's the skills that they bring as a parent. Most of them (all of them, in the little group here) have more financial resources and space than I do. But I think I'm more willing to be hopeful about increasing my personal resources. More willing to fearlessly look at what I've got to work with, and how it can expand.
Amber: I was thinking about recent questions about strewing, and I had been thinking about how to strew experiences
ErinElizabeth: maybe a topic could be creating or finding joy?
Sandra Dodd: Sweet, ErinElizabeth
Sandra Dodd: You want topics on joy and strewing?
Sandra Dodd: Separate, I guess
Amber: joyful strewing :)
Sandra Dodd: There shouldn't be any other kind, though!
Lisa Celedon: Aw, Erin, that is really nice. :) it made me feel all warm inside. I love hearing that people do that for their families. It's so much sweeter and nicer than "ugh, the sink is already full of dishes again."
Sandra Dodd: Yes.
Sandra Dodd: I get to go and order two birthday cakes now, driving my new smart car.
Sandra Dodd: yay!
Amber: yum
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Sandra Dodd: I can drive a two-passenger car now, after years and years of a fifteen-passenger ford Econoline, followed by a mini-van
Sandra Dodd: I do NOT need space for three kids, their friends, bikes, skateboards, the dog, dog dish, frisbee...
Sandra Dodd: Regan, we're done. You can read back through if you want. Next week come two hours earlier. We'll be discussing Finding and Maintaining Joy.
Sandra Dodd: The week after that, Joyful Strewing.
Sandra Dodd: Thanks for being here. Stay and chat more if you want to. I'm going to a bakery and an ice cream shop.
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Amber: Thank you Sandra. And everyone.
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Lisa Celedon: That's funny, I'd like a mini-van. ;) But I have little kids and am just having opportunities to transport their friends and it's new and exciting. ;)
ErinElizabeth: I think I'll go create some joy over here by baking a cake today
Amber: more yum!
Parvine: Thank you all, see you next week :)
Amber: feeling inspired already by the next chat topics coming up! bye all!
